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Goodbye Jesus

A New Insight Into The Fundie Mindset (For Me At Least)


bornagainathiest

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Hi!

 

I like to keep track of things at Christianforums.net, especially the Origins Theology area. There's three main reasons for this. First, I enjoy watching the YEC's and TE's tearing each other's throats out. Secondly, the TE's are right-on-the-money when it comes to science, the latest scientific data and the proper interpretation of evidence. Ok, I don't agree with their belief system, but their scientific knowledge can't be faulted, imho. Lastly, the Origins sub-forum is a good place to pick up ways of refuting the spurious arguments used by YEC Fundies, because the TE's don't let they're literalist brethren get away with anything!

 

Please note that Origins Theology is off-limits to anyone except genuine Christian believers. You can join Christianforums, but the only area of it you can freely operate in (assuming you're a non-Christian) is the Exploring Christianity sub-forum. Otherwise, it's strictly hands-off and just watch. Well, that's what I've been doing of and on for a while and today I looked in on this thread...

 

http://www.christianforums.com/t7446796/ ("Why some don't trust science.)

 

It starts off on track, but then veers off into a debate over the word/Word of God. Calypsis4 and Juvenissun represent the YEC Fundie side of the discussion and everyone else (I think) is a TE.

What appalls and perplexes me in equal measure is Juvenissun's stance on 'worship' of the Bible. Having come from an Evangelical brand of Christianity, I'm not altogether up on some of the quirks and tropes of hard-core YEC Fundie literalism - so this Bible-worship is a new and eye-popping discovery for me. One that I'd rather not have made. :(

 

Now, my question to any ex-Fundies reading this is...

Is this view of the Bible as something to worship and treat with awe widespread among Christian Fundamentalists or does Juve just represent some kind of extreme lunatic fringe of an already lunatic fringe belief system?

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

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I'm not going to read through 12 pages of that topic. Could you post quotes or at least list which posts we're supposed to look at?

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Now, my question to any ex-Fundies reading this is...

Is this view of the Bible as something to worship and treat with awe widespread among Christian Fundamentalists or does Juve just represent some kind of extreme lunatic fringe of an already lunatic fringe belief system?

 

 

Yes, in my fundie church, we treated the bible quite literally as gods word, to be obeyed and revered because it represented god.

 

John, chap 1 says: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Because of this verse, the bible is not questioned. It is the word of God. What I read at the link didn't surprise me at all.

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I came from a semi-fundy background, and we didn't worship the bible. We believed the bible was god's perfect word to mankind, so the message contained in it was supposedly infallible and was to be adhered to, but the bible was not god himself and was not to be worshiped as such. I can't speak for all, but in my experience I've never seen anyone actually worship the bible.

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I came from a semi-fundy background, and we didn't worship the bible. We believed the bible was god's perfect word to mankind, so the message contained in it was supposedly infallible and was to be adhered to, but the bible was not god himself and was not to be worshiped as such. I can't speak for all, but in my experience I've never seen anyone actually worship the bible.

I know what you mean. No one at my church actually worshiped the bible per se; they didn't stick it up on the altar and bow down to it, sing hymns to it, pray to it, etc. It was more like some weird idol, certainly more than a holy guide book. It was even used as a holy divining device at times. Just flip it open to see what god had to say; The Holy Spirit would guide your finger to the correct passage, on the correct page.

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I'm not going to read through 12 pages of that topic. Could you post quotes or at least list which posts we're supposed to look at?

 

Hello ColorMixer.

 

With all due respect and not wishing to provoke you in any way, I feel that I have to say this...

If you aren't going to read thru 12 pages of that topic, then maybe this thread and my question really aren't for you.

 

Sorry, but I don't think this is something that can be neatly summarized in a 15 second sound-byte. In my experience, I've found it very rewarding to follow various threads, noting the ebb and flow of the dialog, the subtle nuances of certain arguments and such like. All of this takes time and persistence. I am a patient man and I have the time to do this. Not everyone has the luxury of copious amounts of time to spend pursuing these things. That's ok.

 

No hard feelings, I hope.

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

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To Citsonga and Snowflake...

 

Thanks for the input, you guys!

 

BAA.

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I'm not going to read through 12 pages of that topic. Could you post quotes or at least list which posts we're supposed to look at?

 

Hello ColorMixer.

 

With all due respect and not wishing to provoke you in any way, I feel that I have to say this...

If you aren't going to read thru 12 pages of that topic, then maybe this thread and my question really aren't for you.

 

Sorry, but I don't think this is something that can be neatly summarized in a 15 second sound-byte. In my experience, I've found it very rewarding to follow various threads, noting the ebb and flow of the dialog, the subtle nuances of certain arguments and such like. All of this takes time and persistence. I am a patient man and I have the time to do this. Not everyone has the luxury of copious amounts of time to spend pursuing these things. That's ok.

 

No hard feelings, I hope.

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

 

I am patient as well. You posted a topic with your opinion of another topic elsewhere. The topic is 12 pages long somewhere else. You mention two posters on the forum but don't really summarize what they are saying yet you ask the question:

 

Is this view of the Bible as something to worship and treat with awe widespread among Christian Fundamentalists or does Juve just represent some kind of extreme lunatic fringe of an already lunatic fringe belief system?

 

It's kind of hard to have a discussion about the topic when we need to track down where these posters said things in the 12 page long topic. If you could at least point to post numbers or page numbers where they are talking about specific things then maybe I would have something more to say. As of right now I don't know what they are discussing, or what "Juve"'s viewpoint is, so I can't really say anything.

 

If you could summarize at least some of their talking points, I'd be more apt to putting the same kind of effort into having a discussion about it. As of right now, I don't think just laying out a 12 page long post and saying "what do you think about this very specific part in it" makes for much of a conversation.

 

You're right though, maybe this topic isn't for me. So I guess all I'm saying is that if you want more people to chime in, I suggest you post some more info. Because I'd like to discuss it, but I just can't sit through a 12 page post on a Christian forum to try and pick out specific bits you are talking about.

 

If you are interested in the "ebb and flow" as you put it, maybe you could highlight some of this for the rest of us?

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I came from a semi-fundy background, and we didn't worship the bible. We believed the bible was god's perfect word to mankind, so the message contained in it was supposedly infallible and was to be adhered to, but the bible was not god himself and was not to be worshiped as such. I can't speak for all, but in my experience I've never seen anyone actually worship the bible.

 

Nor me Citsonga.

 

C'mon! No sane person's going to worship a book, are they? :twitch:

 

http://sikhism.about.com/od/gurugranthsahib/p/Guru_Granth.htm

 

BAA

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I'm not going to read through 12 pages of that topic. Could you post quotes or at least list which posts we're supposed to look at?

 

Hello ColorMixer.

With all due respect and not wishing to provoke you in any way, I feel that I have to say this...

If you aren't going to read thru 12 pages of that topic, then maybe this thread and my question really aren't for you.

Sorry, but I don't think this is something that can be neatly summarized in a 15 second sound-byte. In my experience, I've found it very rewarding to follow various threads, noting the ebb and flow of the dialog, the subtle nuances of certain arguments and such like. All of this takes time and persistence. I am a patient man and I have the time to do this. Not everyone has the luxury of copious amounts of time to spend pursuing these things. That's ok.

No hard feelings, I hope.

Thanks.

BAA.

 

I am patient as well. You posted a topic with your opinion of another topic elsewhere. The topic is 12 pages long somewhere else. You mention two posters on the forum but don't really summarize what they are saying yet you ask the question:

Is this view of the Bible as something to worship and treat with awe widespread among Christian Fundamentalists or does Juve just represent some kind of extreme lunatic fringe of an already lunatic fringe belief system?

 

It's kind of hard to have a discussion about the topic when we need to track down where these posters said things in the 12 page long topic. If you could at least point to post numbers or page numbers where they are talking about specific things then maybe I would have something more to say. As of right now I don't know what they are discussing, or what "Juve"'s viewpoint is, so I can't really say anything.

If you could summarize at least some of their talking points, I'd be more apt to putting the same kind of effort into having a discussion about it. As of right now, I don't think just laying out a 12 page long post and saying "what do you think about this very specific part in it" makes for much of a conversation.

You're right though, maybe this topic isn't for me. So I guess all I'm saying is that if you want more people to chime in, I suggest you post some more info. Because I'd like to discuss it, but I just can't sit through a 12 page post on a Christian forum to try and pick out specific bits you are talking about.

If you are interested in the "ebb and flow" as you put it, maybe you could highlight some of this for the rest of us?

 

Hello again ColorMixer and thanks for replying.

 

I have no wish to come across as confrontational but I would like to make the following seven points in a summarized format, for your benefit.

 

1. It looks to me as though Citsonga and Snowflake stuck with it and saw the thread thru to it's end.

2. I'm framing this query as a kind of filter. Those who can cut it, do. Those who can't don't.

3. Therefore if no one else can be bothered to cut the mustard, I won't get any more replies. I can live with that.

4. I'm from the old school where, if something's worth doing, you stick with it to the end.

5. So I admire and respect people who do just that, like Mike... http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESAhistory/SEMGVSMPQ5F_0.html

6. Here's a quick summary of where he's at...

* In the early 1980's he worked on the Hipparcos mission for the ESA.

* In 1993 he co-proposed the Gaia mission.

* Gaia is due to launch sometime next year.

* It's primary mission will last until 2016.

* Reducing the mission data will take (at least) until 2020.

* Only then will other scientists be able to use what GAIA has discovered.

* If the launch rocket fails (and they do sometimes), decades of hard work will be for nothing.

* If the probe malfunctions (and they do sometimes), decades of hard work will be for nothing.

* If the data is corrupted (this happens sometimes), decades of hard work will be for nothing.

7. Please take the time and make the effort to read the last two paragraphs of Mike's bio.

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have no wish to come across as confrontational but I would like to make the following seven points in a summarized format, for your benefit.

 

You don't have to preface what you're going to say with this, I can handle myself in a discussion.

 

You talk a lot about "cutting the mustard" and then link a bunch of stuff about some Mike guy? I am not following. Again I thought you might pick out some interesting points from the forum post you were asking about but I guess you just wanted to defend yourself and say that you're trying to weed out the people who don't take the time to sit through 12 pages of posts on a christian forum.

 

If you really think that those who aren't willing to do the work to get where you are at on reading a long forum post is some kind of test for strong people people can "cut it", then perhaps you should re-evaluate what you think is "worth doing" and get off your high horse.

 

And at that I'll just have to say that I've probably wasted too much time replying to this topic anyway. I thought I'd just give you some insight as to why your discussion thread could have been a lot more interesting and engaging but perhaps you just think I'm not made of the right stuff and can't "cut the mustard". :shrug:

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Hello ColorMixer.

 

You don't have to preface what you're going to say with this, I can handle myself in a discussion.

 

You talk a lot about "cutting the mustard" and then link a bunch of stuff about some Mike guy? I am not following.

 

Ok then, I'll explain.

I started this thread up to find out more about a certain aspect of Fundy psychology, namely their take on the 'divinity' of the Bible as the Word of God or the word of God.

Having noted that certain members of Ex-Chr were Fundies, I provided a link to the relevant thread at Christianforums, where there was a dispute between the Xian's there about the Bible. Word of God or word of god?

Doing this enabled the ex-Fundies here to go thru the whole 12 pages of that thread and grasp the whole and proper meaning of the arguments being presented there. When I did this I was of the opinion that abbreviating the content of the thread in any way would be detrimental to gaining a full understanding of it.

If I was mistaken about proceeding from this initial premise, then the error is mine and I will own up to it. Please note that I say, 'if'.

So CM, was it a mistake for me to ask other members to go thru 12 pages of dialog from another forum or do I not have the right and freedom to phrase a query in the way that I want? Your call.

 

Now to the business of Mike.

I'll admit that your message, "I'm not going to read thru 12 pages of that topic" did annoy me. For that I apologize. I should have kept a cooler head.

In case you're wondering why I got mad, I'll explain this too.

I'm of the old school when it comes to seeing things thru to the end. I don't ever, ever, ever give up on anything, so long as it's within my power to keep on going. Not boasting now, just stating a fact. I've stuck with threads in other forums that have run to 45+ pages and many 100's of messages. I persist and persevere and keep on keeping on until I get a result. That's just the way I am. For that I will not apologize.

 

So, rightly or wrongly, I take a somewhat dim view of what I call the 'soundbyte' generation of today, where everything has to be delivered in double-quick time. Sometimes compressing information down to a short series of summarized points is the best way to go. But equally, sometimes it isn't. In this case I judged that it wasn't. In response to your messages, I chose to cite the example of Dr. Michael Perryman. Why?

Please look at the time-scale of his work. He started it in the early 1980's and it won't be finished until gone 2020. There are no guarantees that he will ever finish it, nor will he get another shot at it. For me he is an excellent model of persistence and commitment. I had hoped that you would pick that idea up and see how the concept of perseverance also applies to sticking with the 12 pages of that thread I linked to. Do you see it now?

 

Again I thought you might pick out some interesting points from the forum post you were asking about but I guess you just wanted to defend yourself and say that you're trying to weed out the people who don't take the time to sit through 12 pages of posts on a christian forum.

 

No CM. I'm sorry, but I'm not in the business of doing the work for you. If you aren't prepared to put in the work, you've weeded yourself out - I had very little to do with it. All I've done is set up the initial conditions and you've consistently fallen short of them. If you don't believe me, please note the following.

I've had to spoon-feed you the lesson of Mike's persistence, hard work and effort, how these qualities are good things how they can be applied in other areas of life, like the opening question of this thread.

Hopefully you will not get a bad attitude over this, but will learn from what I've written here.

 

If you really think that those who aren't willing to do the work to get where you are at on reading a long forum post is some kind of test for strong people people can "cut it", then perhaps you should re-evaluate what you think is "worth doing" and get off your high horse.

 

And at that I'll just have to say that I've probably wasted too much time replying to this topic anyway. I thought I'd just give you some insight as to why your discussion thread could have been a lot more interesting and engaging but perhaps you just think I'm not made of the right stuff and can't "cut the mustard". :shrug:

 

Thank you for for your insight CM.

Imho, the words you've just used do seem to highlight the problem I've been focusing on in our discussion - that of usage of time. "...I've probably wasted too much time replying to this topic anyway."

Do you really consider this topic too time consuming or is it that you consider anything that demands much of your attention and effort to be time wasted?

I sincerely and genuinely hope that it's just this topic.

 

Thanks again for replying.

 

BAA

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