Never A Christian Vs Journey Not Finished

[lonelee]

I haven't been here that long, and I haven't read too much on this site so I apologize if this has already been addressed. But I'm sure almost everyone has heard the statement, "You were never really a Christian". However, once in a while, I also get the response, "You're journey is not finished yet". I seem to have noticed a pattern with regards to the two statements. The first being issued by offended Christians, usually not close friends or relatives. Online conversations are usually where I see these. The second statement is usually delivered by family members or concerned friends. It implies that they believe you really were once a Christian, and that you will be again someday. I was thinking about these two statements and wondering which is the more offensive.

 

I personally have come to the conclusion that the latter is the the more offensive of the two. Sometimes I get bothered by being told that I was never a Christian, but I think it bothers me even more when people imply that I'm the one who's not finished my journey, as if somehow they have no more growing to do, or they have reached the ultimate wisdom. So, I thought I'd pose the question for others, to see what you all think. Which statement do you hate more?

[Ouroboros]

I think both of them stink equally.

 

If I was never a Christian, then obviously asking Jesus to come into ones life and their heart and yada yada doesn't work.

 

And if my journey isn't over, then it means I am exactly the person right now that I'm supposed to be, so why should they even bother trying to convert me? Isn't it up to God then?

[lonelee]

Excellent points! I never thought of those like that!

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Well, if they're still breathing, their journey isn't over yet either. Big whoop.

 

It is the condescension that we are reacting to, more than the verbiage. These are defensive statements on their part because your existence as an ex-Christian violates their sense of reality, and it is unnerving. (Shouldn't you be on fire or at least feeling "convicted"?) So ultimately, they use these statements as a dismissal of your existence, since that helps resolve the feeling of dissonance they have around you.

 

The other way of resolving the dissonance is for them to deconvert also, and there are several emotional barriers to deconversion that have to be either reasoned through, or resolved in a burst of insight.

 

I think the more we understand the mechanics of the emotional/psychological barriers that believers have, the more successful we will be in drawing them out instead of just reacting to the bait of their condescension.

[oddbird1963]

The journey comment is a bit more irenic than the "Never a true Christian." People who use the "Never a true Christian" line are just full of shit, in my opinion. Sorry for the bluntness. I feel really blunt this afternoon. They don't know what they are talking about and should just hit the road.

 

But the "still on a journey" comment is true on the face of it, though most Christians who say this probably believe you will find your way back to Christianity eventually.

 

But what if Christianity is merely one of many intermediate steps (a.k.a. religions or faiths) on the way to a greater understanding of humanity's spiritual dimensions?

 

If they get angry or defensive if you mention such a possibility, then they are no different than the "never a true Christian" bunch and should join those excrement laden disciples of ignorance on the road away from your presence.

 

But if they agree with that possibility, then perhaps they should stay and discuss their point of view with you more. I think, if they can remain Christians and maintain the possibility that you are growing, in your journey, beyond Christianity, then they just may be an interesting person worthy of your time and brain power.

 

Just my opinion . . .

[par4dcourse]

Bottom line (Occam's razor rules!) : Gawd is perfect so it obviously isn't HIS fault. What did you screw up?

[★ Citsonga ★]

People who use the "Never a true Christian" line are just full of shit, in my opinion.

 

That depends on what they mean by "Never a true Christian." Those who mean that we never sincerely believed are indeed full of shit. Those who mean that we were never "born again by the Holy Spirit" are correct, but neither were they "born again by the Holy Spirit," because it's all imaginary!

 

Anyway, regarding the original topic, both are irritating to me. The "Never a true Christian" line implies that we either never truly believed or that they have something ("Holy Spirit") that we never had, which isn't true. The "Your journey isn't finished yet" line implies that we are the ones who are duped as of now, despite the fact that many of us realized christianity is a farce because we learned too much about it and the bible and how believers are duped.

[ClaraOlive]

I think that "your journey is not finished yet" is more offensive, because technically, "you were never a true Christian" is correct. We were never true Christians because there was never a true Christianity, so no one is a true Christian. It's an opportunity to point out what Ouroboros said - Christianity didn't work.

 

There's really nothing to say about "your journey..." It's presumptuous that anyone would think they could know this. If a near-stranger said this to me, they'd get an earful. But it's not worth getting offended with when it's your family saying this, even though it's frustrating, because they're having too hard a time accepting that according to their beliefs, you're going to hell and maybe when they see that you're not changing your mind, the dissonance will sink in more.

[Carmen]

I find "you were never a true Christian" to be way more offensive because it trivializes the struggle that we had to go through. People who say this don't understand that most of us exchristians tried VERY HARD to believe, probably harder than they ever did! As I Christian I denied my own intellect, my own convictions, my own reason, all for the cause of faith. I worked incredibly hard to have believe, but ultimately I realized that blind faith just doesn't cut it. Usually the "your journey isn't finished yet" line is a rationalization made by somewhat less non-judgmental people who are trying to rationalize your unbelief in their mind.

[Seeking]

But I'm sure almost everyone has heard the statement, "You were never really a Christian". However, once in a while, I also get the response, "You're journey is not finished yet".

I got that second statement from my parents. We had a lengthy conversation about my atheism, and when they told me that they believe I'll still end up in heaven, I said, "So, I'm a Christian and just don't know it?" My mom said, "Well, the doctrine of election is best viewed in hindsight, so I believe God has chosen you for salvation, but His work just isn't finished and revealed yet."

 

I suppose it's the only way they can accept my unbelief without having to assume that God is choosing to roast their daughter in Hell for all eternity.

 

Oh, and for the record, I think I find the first statement more offensive because it completely invalidates the 20-year struggle (and I do mean struggle) that I went through in trying desperately NOT to lose my faith. To me, the second statement is just an expression of the speaker trying to retain a feeling of hope, rather than accepting that you're (in their view) doomed!

[lunaticheathen]

I'm somewhat different than most, I think, though I can see the point of being pissed over the "true christian" argument, and the "journey" thing coming from those who care. But it all feels like condescension to me; however, the first time someone told me I was never a "true christian", I said "good! That's a fucking relief!" I have gotten pissed when told I "never sincerely asked for Jesus" or some other nonsense, because they don't know my mind or heart, and that's all just a self-preserving masturbatory statement for their own spiritual fuzzies. Not to mention arrogant.

The journey statement I haven't gotten very often, being a pagan, and therefore I get the "just angry at god" or "rebelling" argument, which is another level of insult, suggesting my own spiritual feelings now are completely invalid. I find the journey statement amusing though, since I view my spiritual life as a journey - so the words are correct, in my mind, but I'm sure their idea is completely different from mine. Christianity was a bump in the road for me, and my journey took me far away from it. My journey is indeed NOT done, but I don't see myself back-tracking in any way. I move forward, not backwards.

[ShallowByThyGame]

Haha my dad uses the journey line, because he likes to think that he stopped going to church and then returned when he got older so I will too. But I have a feeling I've delved much farther than he did, and the times are much different now.

 

I think a good comeback is something like 'At least I'm on a journey for truth, instead of staying in the small box I was raised in.'

 

But both cases are the christian trying to make groundless assumptions about your inner experiences, because they don't really want to listen to your logic. If they can find a simple statement to justify ignoring you, they feel much better.

[HRDWarrior]

I agree that both are condescending statements, however, the "never a true christian" bothers me far more than the "journey" statement. Mostly because saying that I was never a true christian meant that all of my struggles, effort, time, and money were nothing but me "pretending." (well, I guess they were, but I didn't know that...and I wasn't pretending anymore than whoever happened to say that to me). I was just as much a true christian as any other christian out there, and it's a way of christians brushing away a problem they don't know how to deal with.

 

As for the journey one, that one bothers me less, because I cannot guarantee where I will be in 10 years, 20 years or more...if you had told me 10 years ago that I would be where I am now belief wise (or lack thereof) I would have laughed and said you were off your rocker. Knowing that, I have no intention of pretending that I could never, ever be a christian again - I don't see it happening, but I never saw myself becoming an atheist, either. I mean, there's always a slim chance (however improbable it may be) that there is a god, who happens to be the christian god, and it could possibly come on down here and present enough evidence to make me believe....doubt it'll happen, but it could:HaHa:

 

I can't forsee the future, so the journey one bothers me a lot less. I DO, however, know my own past, and the statement that says I don't bothers me far more.

[★ Citsonga ★]

"never a true christian"... it's a way of christians brushing away a problem they don't know how to deal with.

 

Or a problem they don't believe even exists.

[Snowflake]

Never a true christian really chaps my hide because I tried to make it work. I wanted to make it work. How dare they judge me! I wasn't successful at it because I could not live the lie.

 

The journey not finished doesn't bother me at all. There is so much more for me to learn! I wasted too much time being a narrow minded fundie, I enjoy exploring different ideas. Where that journey takes me is no ones business but my own.

[LivingLife]

Probably with most of us (assuming much) the journey is over. We have as teh buybull states come out of the harlot but of course fundies and particularly those with RCC origins will use that to infer the whore is the RCC.

 

teh lard has to materialistically appear before me in person and before sober witnesses before I would reconvert.

 

When I wuz a woo woo, my b.a. experience was very real and only because I had bought into the mass delusion, I even sensed the presence of angels and teh wholly spook was inspired to write songs about this experience and got involved with the P&W teams of various churches I was involved with which was not a problem really, no divine inspiration, I am a skilled guitarist and have a not too bad voice and usually the P&W musicians suck. Amazing how many songs I had to dumb down the chords as folk did not know how to play minors, augmented, sevenths, fifths, diminished chords etc.

 

The last thing to go in "my journey" out was xian music. Having invested heavily in that genre, about 180GB in mp3 format IOW a shitload of CD's, it was the only thing I still found marginally palatable, once I tossed that and started listening to teh ebul secular music again, the voices in my head stopped altogether.

 

I still remember the pastor praying for teh lard to speak to me in dreams, the lard must have been asleep at the helm as I never had dreams, and the few I had were really bat shit crazy hallucinations and I do not use drugs.

 

The journey angle is merely a "new agey" way of coping with us baby eating, porn loving, wife swapping (or partner)... heathen having told them woo woos that their sky daddy exists only in their puny minds and in a book written by ME goatherders from 2k+ years ago.

 

So yes my journey is not over in a secular sense, I learn new stuff every day and I am 52, at least now, I do not have to filter this via some archaic bronze age mysticism. I do not fear death and to be honest, when I wuz a woo woo, I prayed and drove more irresponsibly than I do now, maybe that is just wisdom that comes with age.

[Shyone]

So yes my journey is not over in a secular sense, I learn new stuff every day and I am 52, at least now, I do not have to filter this via some archaic bronze age mysticism. I do not fear death and to be honest, when I wuz a woo woo, I prayed and drove more irresponsibly than I do now, maybe that is just wisdom that comes with age.

I'm in my late 50s, and I sometimes wonder why most guys our age aren't atheist.

 

Or are they?

[dB-Paradox]

Funny, I'm in my 30's and while a Christian (still in my early 30's) I just couldn't see how 50-somethings couldn't believe in a god! I thought only mature people were Christians! LOL!!! I guess I'm immature now....

 

Oh, and for the record, I think I hate the "never a true Christian" comment more.

[★ Citsonga ★]

The last thing to go in "my journey" out was xian music. Having invested heavily in that genre, about 180GB in mp3 format IOW a shitload of CD's, it was the only thing I still found marginally palatable, once I tossed that and started listening to teh ebul secular music again, the voices in my head stopped altogether.

 

I had a ton of christian CDs as well, but I quickly got to where most of it I just couldn't listen to anymore. I sold a lot of them on eBay, and will probably sell some more within the next few months (after some higher priority things are out of the way). There are a lot of others I'd like to get rid of, but my still-religious wife wants them, so I'll let them be for now.

 

At this point, if I were to have to pick a favorite christian CD, it would probably be "Epic Tales Of Whoa!" by Tony Palacios (guitarist from Guardian). As an instrumental album, there aren't any lyrics to have to stomach, and the music is quite good. I should listen to it again sometime soon....

[lonelee]

Thanks for all the replies! All very good points, and having read through them I think I agree with many about the "Never a true Christian" thing. I too, struggled and it does minimize our efforts.