Hey Christians! I dare you to pray for me.

[Guest aexapo]

Digression is a key element on this board. 

 

Speaking of keys *ba-da-bum-pssshhhhh* the only time I've been on the keys since we stopped attending church was with a Stevie Ray Vaughn cover band, but it wasn't my keyboard.  Lately I've been picturing a baby grand in the new house.  More practical to get someothing electronic.  Even better, some basic mini-keyboard that can plug in to the PC.  I gots mad tunez and beatz in my head that the world is waiting for with great anticipation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Doncha hate that? I played the piano at my church way back when, and while playing at a happy-clappy church does wonders for "playing by ear" (since no one there can ever read music), it often makes everything else you play sound like gospel music. I can't even play "Losing my religion" without it sounding like damn altar-call ambience music.

 

So, I stay away from the keys as well . . . which is a shame, because I really enjoyed it back then, on a selfish level -- I couldn't have cared less how many "souls I led to Christ" with my chord progressions, though I think I may have manipulated one or two.

[ExRC]

I find it rather, musing (yes, not amusing), that the entire first page of this thread is simply a bunch of non-Christians going back and forth about how good of a "challenge" this is.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Apparently it is a good challenge. We are still waiting for it to be met, notwithstanding the constant attempts at deflection. I can't say I blame you though, deflection is your only weapon. No go ahead and post some more circular B.S.

[Curtdude]

I find it rather, musing (yes, not amusing), that the entire first page of this thread is simply a bunch of non-Christians going back and forth about how good of a "challenge" this is.

 

I have a better idea.  How about YOU humble YOURSELF and pray that God would cure YOU of YOUR immorality, and maybe I'll say something for you too.

 

Good, day.

 

Hey Daniel,

 

Thanks for the response. I've been on vacation since 9/29, and just came back on board.

 

To answer your question/command/suggestion, I DID humble myself before god when I was a believer, and nothing happened. I did this for the many years that I was a believer (about 10 years). I went through it all. I prayed. I was discipled. I begged god to change my heart. Anyone who knew me during that period would vouch for my sincerity and my love for god. Doing that now does not make much sense, since I don't believe in your religion anymore.

 

My "challenge" to christians like you was to gauge your reaction and attitude. You passed simply by responding. Unfortunately, you have shown such a disregard for the command to love others as god has loved you, all I can really say is that you have acted like most believers I currently know. Not all, but most. The burden for changing the heart is back ON ME, not on your god. I have to humble myself. Why? Just because your god says so? I did, and zero happened.

 

And zero is happening now. Not that I want to change. I don't. But I have received plenty of reassurance from this little show of "the fruits of the spirit" from you that christianity is just as dead, ineffective, and callous as THOSE WHO HAPPEN TO CLING TO IT. I don't blame the religion for your bad, unloving behavior. I blame you.

 

Thanks, Dan baby. One more real life, living EXISTING reason not to be religious, and certainly not a christian.

 

Didn't you read Dario's reaction. Or Yoyo's? They understand that this is more than a "change Curtdude's sexual orientation" quiz. It's an attitude and heart quiz. I have taken some lessons from it. Maybe I need to ease up on christians by not putting them all into one box of identity. Maybe I need to take a Chill Pill and not be so defensive.

 

So why is it that I exhibit more "fruits of the spirit" than you, Dan? Who knows. I'll bet you're a nice guy who got tired of reading all of the rants and bitterness of apostates. Get a grip, dude, that is the result of our being in the mindcult of christianity, and the effects are not pretty. Hopefully some of us can come out of our years in the cult w/ the semblance of psychological normalcy.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Maybe homosexuality isn't what G_d wants you worrying about right now?

 

Out of curiosity, did you ever ask G_d what he wanted from you or did you decide that homosexuality was the defining issue in your life and relationship with G_d and nothing was going to happen until that matter got settled?

 

Perhaps the proverbial still small voice was calling you in a different direction.

 

My recommendation:

Take homosexuality off the table for the next 6 months. Make it a non-issue for a set period of time and truly ask what the real next step is in your life instead of deciding that on your own. Not that you'll do that -- such is a sample of what I might have said had I run into you at that time.

[Guest Guest]

Take homosexuality off the table for the next 6 months. Make it a non-issue for a set period of time and truly ask what the real next step is in your life instead of deciding that on your own.

 

?? Translation: Ignore it and hope it will go away?

 

MG, you make it sound like Curtdude made homosexuality an issue of significance in his life. It actually looks like other people made his sexual orientation an issue. I'm happily asexual until people start commenting how weird that is, or how I'm just in denial or whatnot, and once the difference is made poignant, the ability to make it a non-issue is totally out of my hands.

 

In short: stop blaming the victim.

[Mad_Gerbil]

?? Translation: Ignore it and hope it will go away?

 

MG, you make it sound like Curtdude made homosexuality an issue of significance in his life. It actually looks like other people made his sexual orientation an issue. I'm happily asexual until people start commenting how weird that is, or how I'm just in denial or whatnot, and once the difference is made poignant, the ability to make it a non-issue is totally out of my hands.

 

In short: stop blaming the victim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I'm not saying 'Ignore it and hope it will go away' - a person's sexual orientation doesn't just 'go away'. I'm saying take it off the table as an issue and get up every morning and revel in the fact that he is loved by G_d, faults and all.

 

Do you think I'm perfect? You think I don't have to follow this advice every day? I've got all kinds of sin in my life that I have to face every day but it isn't going to become the definition of who I am -- it isn't gonna become the one and only issue in my life.

 

Approach G_d with the understanding that G_d might not have homosexuality as the BIG ISSUE that MUST CONSUME YOUR LIFE right now. There may be other more important issues in one's life -- so stop blowing it out of proportion and making it into THE ISSUE when perhaps G_d wants to deal with something else.

 

When we approach G_d and tell him what he must do FIRST in our lives (ie: remove my homosexuality) then that is just us taking control. What I know of G_d leads me to believe that while the issue is important, it is probably last on 'to do' list.

[Mad_Gerbil]

I'm ready for you to throw the verses from Paul at me that excuse a Christians bad behavior.  Go ahead axe the words of precious jesus and the other apostles, in favor of Paul.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Bible is full of examples of men/women who walked with G_d and failed miserably -- the bad behavior isn't excused, it is dealt with and that is a process in many people's lives.

 

Jesus' example was to forgive and minister to Peter after Peter denied Him in a most crucial hour -- Jesus forgave the bad behavior, but also dealt with it -- it wasn't excused. The gospels are clear that the disciples failed time and time again.

 

Now if you want to refute the brand of Christianity that claims a Christian never sins again (or claim that is Christianity), be my guest. That has nothing to do with what I'm about -- you may wanna find someone willing to defend that and discuss it with them.

[trashy]

hey Curt - are you cured yet?

[Vixentrox]

The Bible is full of examples of men/women who walked with G_d and failed miserably -- the bad behavior isn't excused, it is dealt with and that is a process in many people's lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, and many times it was dealt with by killing thier children, friends, and just about anyone around them. Good one god.....

[MQTA]

C'mon now, all of you True Believers out there.  Get your youth groups and prayer meetings jazzed with this one.  Make me straight.  You've got God, and Jesus and the Holy Spirit on your side.  Bind Satan, cast out the spirit of whatever it is that causes me to be a queer, and cure me.

 

...

 

Am I tempting your god?  Damned straight I am.  Am I tempting you?  We'll see...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

well, it's been 5 weeks, do you like the OS yet?

[Mad_Gerbil]

I didn't pray for CurtDude at all.

Was my non-prayer answered?

 

(I set someone up for a punchline there... have at it.)

[Poonis]

I have a question, to which I have never had it sincerely addressed, regarding the efficacy of prayer.

 

 

What methodology is used to determine and confirm a prayer has been answered, differentiating from both (1) recieving what was prayed for, and (2) recieving other than what was prayed for?

[Curtdude]

I have a question, to which I have never had it sincerely addressed, regarding the efficacy of prayer.

What methodology is used to determine and confirm a prayer has been answered, differentiating from both (1) recieving what was prayed for, and (2) recieving other than what was prayed for?

 

Hey Poonis,

 

I think that is called circular logic (if I follow your thoughts here). Christians have a ready answer for any outcome: It Is The Will Of God. whatever.

 

Hey Glenn (Monsieur Trashy), how's it going? I actually missed your acerbic posts while I was on vacation, along with the rejoinders from Dennis, MadameM and Purpy. And no, I'm still me. Not that I mind.

 

Hey MGerbil, thanks for the responses and thoughts. I think that the asexual Mr./Ms. Guest answered pretty well for me (merci beaucoup Le/La Guest). I understand what you are saying about not making it a big issue. In real life (away from this board) it is simply part of me, my partner, the make up of my family. I brought it up on this thread as an issue of discussion, not as a reflection of any obsession on my part. Of course, keep in mind that for most folks, sex is on their minds all the time, so since I happen to be gay, geez, guess what? I think about sex about as much as the dudes on The Guy Show (btw, that show is a riot).

 

MGerbil, you commented: "Maybe homosexuality isn't what G_d wants you worrying about right now?

Out of curiosity, did you ever ask G_d what he wanted from you or did you decide that homosexuality was the defining issue in your life and relationship with G_d and nothing was going to happen until that matter got settled?

Perhaps the proverbial still small voice was calling you in a different direction.

My recommendation:

Take homosexuality off the table for the next 6 months. Make it a non-issue for a set period of time and truly ask what the real next step is in your life instead of deciding that on your own. Not that you'll do that -- such is a sample of what I might have said had I run into you at that time."

 

You have succinctly recounted emotionally my mind set when I was a believer. My deconversion had many elements, one of them certainly was that I was not invited to the Church Jesus Party as the current whipping/scapegoat member of society. But not completely. I deconverted because I no longer could believe the central claims of christianity: god exists as expressed in the bible, he incarnated himself as Jesus, died for our sins, blah blah blah. (Check out my extestimony on the old board.)

 

You said something that I only hear from christians: "Make it a non-issue for a set period of time and truly ask what the real next step is in your life instead of deciding that on your own." How does one at one moment "ask what the real next step is" and at the same time "instead of deciding that on your own"??? It seems to be that contradiction of "trying to please god" and "letting god lead you" all rolled up into one. Or am I misunderstanding your post?

 

Also, you allude to "Maybe homosexuality isn't what G_d wants you worrying about right now?" That simply does not square w/ the scripture that most christians claim to believe and turn to for concrete answers. Scripture is clear that homosexual acts are an abomination (your bible's words, not mine) and I could not in all honesty when I was a believer turn my back on those words.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Curt:

 

I guess it has been my experience that I often try to tell G_d what is going to develop next in my life instead of letting Him lead. I could see WHY a young man struggling with homosexuality would make it the central issue in his life but I wonder if it really should have been. (I've no way of knowing -- what I just said would be considered very bad by most Christians)

 

Probably I feel that way because that is where I am in my life -- I'm getting tired of running the show and I've discovered most of my life has been my own attempts at faking spirituality instead of actually being it.

 

So I'm taking the path of listening and when I read your challenge here instead of thinking "Yeah, that homosexuality is the FIRST THING he should clean up" I asked myself "What would G_d really have him working on right now?"

 

 

Interesting to me.

Perhaps not you.

 

I'm still not gonna pray for you though....

Not even if you beg.

 

[Kay]

Approach G_d with the understanding that G_d might not have homosexuality as the BIG ISSUE that MUST CONSUME YOUR LIFE right now. There may be other more important issues in one's life -- so stop blowing it out of proportion and making it into THE ISSUE when perhaps G_d wants to deal with something else.

 

I could see WHY a young man struggling with homosexuality would make it the central issue in his life but I wonder if it really should have been.

 

Have you been living in a hole for the past 15 years or something, mate? How can one's sexual orientation NOT be a defining issue in life when terms such as "gay" and "homo" and "fag" and "poofter" are common derogatory terms. So CD is going to have to walk around the rest of his life with people living under the opinion that his natural preference is offensive, gross, disgusting and wrong.

 

Wow - ignore the tremendous amounts of prejudice and how you're ostracized most of the time. Find something more meaningful in life other than to feel that you are a normal person with equal entitlement and rights like all other people. Yeah, I'm sure God doesn't really care if you're being treated like a second-class citizen without access to equal opportunity, if not general civility from other people. I mean, the government just wants to deny you the right to marry another consenting adult. For gawd sakes, CD, stop making an issue of your homosexuality!

 

Kay

 

(PS - Post 151 was me - I assumed I was logged in at the time)

[Guest aexapo]

Maybe homosexuality isn't what G_d wants you worrying about right now?

 

Out of curiosity, did you ever ask G_d what he wanted from you or did you decide that homosexuality was the defining issue in your life and relationship with G_d and nothing was going to happen until that matter got settled?

 

Perhaps the proverbial still small voice was calling you in a different direction.

 

My recommendation:

Take homosexuality off the table for the next 6 months.  Make it a non-issue for a set period of time and truly ask what the real next step is in your life instead of deciding that on your own.  Not that you'll do that -- such is a sample of what I might have said had I run into you at that time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I just love the "you got the steps wrong" Christianity. It's like if it's some kinda complicated two-step dance that all the gays, unhealed, and perplexed people just can't do. You'll hear from God only if you follow the steps IN ORDER . . . left, right, right, left, left.

 

Apparently, Curt and others have slipped another step in, mixed something up, put on the wrong dance tune . . . and THAT'S why change doesn't come!

 

If only people did this before that, or that instead of the other . . . Even when it's not intentional, such "you got the steps wrong" theology is a simple "sleight of hand" parlor trick (the acorn wasn't under that cup -- it was under this one).

 

There are no supernatural healings, no supernatural changes. Nothing happens in Christianity that doesn't occur without it -- or it would be statistically measurable. And, it isn't. Even if we can't "measure God," we could certainly measure the results -- and there's no obvious difference.

 

The only difference between me and a Christian is perception -- they believe in healing and change, even when it doesn't happen. They can SEE the emperor's new clothes.

 

Jesus can't change you, and he won't heal you. Why? Because if he ever lived, he's been dead for about 2 millenia. And "father God" can't do much, either, because he was never anything more than a construct of our very imaginative (and ignorant) ancestors.

 

I can still believe in the impossible, see the unimaginable, and hope for things out of my reach -- but, now, without Christ, I require herbal assistance.

[Mike D]

I'm saying take it off the table as an issue and get up every morning and revel in the fact that he is loved by G_d, faults and all.

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. " - Leviticus 20:13

 

Yes, God certainly does love homosexuals, faults and all

 

That's one of those lovely inspiring verses I would like to see made into a calender page (perhaps the month of Dec?) with a spectacular picture of the sun shining through the clouds as doves fly by...

[Lunar Shadow]

so Curt have you felt the holy spirity come over you yet??

 

 

and if so was it sticky?

[Mad_Gerbil]

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. " - Leviticus 20:13

 

Yes, God certainly does love homosexuals, faults and all 

 

That's one of those lovely inspiring verses I would like to see made into a calender page (perhaps the month of Dec?) with a spectacular picture of the sun shining through the clouds as doves fly by...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd like to meet any man who isn't guilty, on some level, of one of the seven 'deadly' sins on a daily basis.

[Curtdude]

Curt:

 

I guess it has been my experience that I often try to tell G_d what is going to develop next in my life instead of letting Him lead.  I could see WHY a young man struggling with homosexuality would make it the central issue in his life but I wonder if it really should have been.  (I've no way of knowing -- what I just said would be considered very bad by most Christians)

 

Probably I feel that way because that is where I am in my life -- I'm getting tired of running the show and I've discovered most of my life has been my own attempts at faking spirituality instead of actually being it.

 

So I'm taking the path of listening and when I read your challenge here instead of thinking "Yeah, that homosexuality is the FIRST THING he should clean up" I asked myself "What would G_d really have him working on right now?"

 

 

Interesting to me.

Perhaps not you.

 

I'm still not gonna pray for you though....

Not even if you beg.

 

 

Hey MGerbil,

 

I would certainly agree w/ you that your position would be considered "bad" by most evangelicals. (Christians who do not believe in the inerrancy of scripture tend to have your attitude of "more important matters to attend to".) Are you generally considered "unorthodox" by your other christian friends/family, more of the "free soul/hipster" sort of believer? Just curious.

 

Your comment about "tired of running the show" was exactly the way I felt when I was a christian: the pressures to improve, be more christ-like and all of that, were incredible. I can understand this response. (But I'll tell ya, it feels awfully good not to do that anymore.) hehehe

 

And no, I won't beg.

 

Hi Kay,

 

You nailed the general tone of modern life for sexual minorities very well! Well put. I like your writing style.

 

Howdy again aexapo! This is just waaaay too good: "There are no supernatural healings, no supernatural changes. Nothing happens in Christianity that doesn't occur without it -- or it would be statistically measurable. And, it isn't. Even if we can't "measure God," we could certainly measure the results -- and there's no obvious difference.

The only difference between me and a Christian is perception -- they believe in healing and change, even when it doesn't happen. They can SEE the emperor's new clothes." What more can I say. My thoughts precisely.

 

Hi Jester! How's Ivy? Are you guys still in the Bay Area? I have not been reading your posts lately, so I don't know if your situation w/ your parents has cooled down. I hope so.

 

And no change. I was in Amsterdam during vacation and even w/ all of the available Ladies of the Evening bein' legal and all, I just couldn't feel the ol' holy geezer makin' a change o' heart.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Hey MGerbil,

 

I would certainly agree w/ you that your position would be considered "bad" by most evangelicals.  (Christians who do not believe in the inerrancy of scripture tend to have your attitude of "more important matters to attend to".)  Are you generally considered "unorthodox" by your other christian friends/family, more of the "free soul/hipster" sort of believer?  Just curious.

 

Your comment about "tired of running the show" was exactly the way I felt when I was a christian: the pressures to improve, be more christ-like and all of that, were incredible.  I can understand this response.  (But I'll tell ya, it feels awfully good not to do that anymore.) hehehe

 

I'm orthodox -- although, having been burned by fundamentalism I think it is safe to say that I enjoy turning typical fundy truisms on their ear, if possible.

 

Take a look at homosexuality and compare it with my greed (at least on the surface). At the very least, homosexuality at least mimics love whereas my greed doesn't even mimic anything positive.

 

So if G_d is willing to work with me as far out lost and wrong as I am then I don't see why He wouldn't do the same for everybody -- no matter what sin they have going on. I'm a wee bit tired of sermons on the BIG SINS when heart disease is a bigger killer than AIDS. (thank you gluttony)

 

And yeah, I know. Sounds like a Christian cozying up to a gay guy with the whole "I'm a sinner too thing" just to get you to reconsider. Pffft. I honestly don't care what decision you make -- as it turns out I'm also tired of pretending I care.

 

I'm interested in real Christianity and that means changes in who I am and not changes in how effectively I pretend to be something I'm not. So I ask myself the question alot lately -- what is next? What happens if I let go and just let G_d lead the way instead of me always calling the shots. I find that interesting.

[Mike D]

I'd like to meet any man who isn't guilty, on some level, of one of the seven 'deadly' sins on a daily basis.

Yeah, but don't recall too many Bible verses where Biblegod calls for the violent and brutal murders of people who commit any of those from time to time, like he does for the homosexuals that he "loves" so much....

[MQTA]

I'd like to meet any man who isn't guilty, on some level, of one of the seven 'deadly' sins on a daily basis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

http://www.whitestonejournal.com/seven/

 

I guess I should say I'd be jealous like the jealous God. I haven't committed a good sin in a long time. How boring.

 

Probably not since 1993 at least. Had some good ones in 1991 and 1989 though.

[Curtdude]

....And yeah, I know.  Sounds like a Christian cozying up to a gay guy with the whole "I'm a sinner too thing" just to get you to reconsider.  Pffft.  I honestly don't care what decision you make -- as it turns out I'm also tired of pretending I care....

 

 

I think this is one of the most honest posts I've yet heard from a christian. I don't agree, but like you alluded, cut the crap and tell it like it is.

[I Broke Free]

At the very least, homosexuality at least mimics love

 

That's just how I view Christianity.

 

It mimics love, compassion and intelligence. But in the end, it is only an illusion.

 

I guess I can at least understand your argument.