Falling in love with God

[thomas]

Today I was forewarded a mail with this signature line:

 

If a Church doesn't help you fall in love with God, then it's not a church that knows God" Tom Arminger.

 

What does this line tell you? Can a human truely love a God?

[BlueGiant]

Well, being a human, wouldn't loving a god be beastiality in a way? It certaily isn't out species, after all.

[Reach]

Can a human truely love a God?

I used to.

 

I used to love God...

 

...with all my heart, my passion, my focus, my energy, my mind.

 

And just posting that, my eyes are watering and I find myself close to tears. That's when I change the subject and turn my mind from my loss to something that is not laced with grief. It's good to know that time does soften the impact of grief and the pain eases.

 

-Reach

[Alice]

I hope this isn't going off at too much of a tangent but ....

 

your comment, SerenityNow, that people fall in love with the 'idea of God' - really struck a cord with me.

 

Isn't that a big part of most 'love' relationships - that we are in love with our idea of who that person is? We learn things about someone - join the dots as it were, between the bits of information we have and 'fall in love' with the image we create.

 

I did feel 'love' for the image of God I'd created. I have felt love for people - real flesh and blood people, that was based on the illusion I had spung around the things I thought I knew about them.

 

If love turns out to be based on an illusion - it the emotion felt any less 'real'?

[Alice]

I used to.

 

I used to love God...

 

...with all my heart, my passion, my focus, my energy, my mind.

 

And just posting that, my eyes are watering and I find myself close to tears. That's when I change the subject and turn my mind from my loss to something that is not laced with grief. It's good to know that time does soften the impact of grief and the pain eases.

 

-Reach

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I hadn't seen this when I posted ... I guess this answers my question - love based on an illusion is no less 'real' an emotion ...

[Lizard]

I used to.

 

I used to love God...

 

...with all my heart, my passion, my focus, my energy, my mind.

 

And just posting that, my eyes are watering and I find myself close to tears. That's when I change the subject and turn my mind from my loss to something that is not laced with grief. It's good to know that time does soften the impact of grief and the pain eases.

 

-Reach

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aww, Reach..I know what you mean and reading what you posted brings it all back full force.

Yes, time eases, but still sometimes is it not like the pull one has to their abuser?

 

(((((((((((((((Reach)))))))))))))))))))

[Clergicide]

Today I was forewarded a mail with this signature line:

What does this line tell you? Can a human truely love a God?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm..definitely have to agree they love the idea of God. Otherwise, it would be an unhealthy relationship to love someone so indifferent and abusive.

 

God: You better love me or I'll inflict the worst kind of pain and punishment on you. And you better not even think of seeing another God. By the way, you're worthless, and no other God would love you, only I love you, and don't forget that or I'll kill you. Now bring me a goat and two turtledoves, bitch, I'm hungry.

[Reach]

Hmm..definitely have to agree they love the idea of God.  Otherwise, it would be an unhealthy relationship to love someone so indifferent and abusive. 

 

God: You better love me or I'll inflict the worst kind of pain and punishment on you.  And you better not even think of seeing another God.  By the way, you're worthless, and no other God would love you, only I love you, and don't forget that or I'll kill you.  Now bring me a goat and two turtledoves, bitch, I'm hungry.

Regarding the God I came to know, I didn't grow up Catholic and I didn't grow up being abused either. I didn't grow up being made to feel shame and degradation. Nor did I feel that I was subject to any indifference on his part. My relationship with God may have been based upon an illusion but it was never an abusive one. There is a huge difference.

 

The only abusiveness I truly encountered concerning God was in my Bible which I felt must contain some elements of historical accuracy and of course, in the clergy who has become proficient, par excellence, in lying and teaching falsehoods.

[Reach]

Aww, Reach..I know what you mean and reading what you posted brings it all back full force.

Yes, time eases, but still sometimes is it not like the pull one has to their abuser?

 

(((((((((((((((Reach)))))))))))))))))))

Thank you, Lizard.

 

I have no experience with "the pull one has to their abuser," so I cannot speak concerning that.

 

What it's really like is loving someone and losing that one. I lost the greatest love of my life.

 

And "he" never abused me.

 

It doesn't hurt so much now and I think on it rarely but that loss and grief were very real regardless of the evidence that I can now see that my belief was all based on an illusion.

[Merlinfmct87]

Hmm..definitely have to agree they love the idea of God.  Otherwise, it would be an unhealthy relationship to love someone so indifferent and abusive. 

 

God: You better love me or I'll inflict the worst kind of pain and punishment on you.  And you better not even think of seeing another God.  By the way, you're worthless, and no other God would love you, only I love you, and don't forget that or I'll kill you.  Now bring me a goat and two turtledoves, bitch, I'm hungry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have to second this. Trying to get to know someone who sets up terms that say

 

1) I'm never wrong

2) If you question me, I'll fry you

3) Do exactly as I say or I'll fry you

4) You know, you really are worthless, being a sinner and all... but I love you anyway.

5) If you look at anyone else, I'll damn you.(He is a jealous god...)

 

Not something I'd be interested in... he sounds like the worst kind of jealous control-freak. You may love him, but he doesn't love back...

 

Think about it... if he really loved you, he would be willing to let you go without punishing you for not 'loving him back.' Love is an odd thing, you can't control or choose whom you love, it's simply not possible for a human to do. To base salvation on what is essentially a die-roll(roll d20 to see if I fall in love with Jesus...) is nuts to me...

 

How can an immortal perfect being be that narrow-sighted? How can he be that reckless with eternity?

 

Merlin

[Reach]

SerenityNow, I appreciate that you and a few others can relate to where I'm coming from and I think we are coming from the same or similar place. I have to admit that to a certain degree I resent the references to the "abusive wife syndrome," or similar generalized statements to that effect. (As far as my experience goes, much of this is found in Catholicism, but not necessarily in Protestant denominations.) Those who make those statements base their assumptions on us all experiencing an abusive relationship with the God of our past. Well, that's not how it was!!!

 

My experience (and that of my children) is similar to what you wrote about. Christianity provided us a happy life. We were usually filled with peace, had a problem-solving God we were in relationship with. Gratitude overflowed our lives and we couldn't have been more healthy.

[Reach]

Not something I'd be interested in... he sounds like the worst kind of jealous control-freak. You may love him, but he doesn't love back...

 

Think about it... if he really loved you, he would be willing to let you go without punishing you for not 'loving him back.' Love is an odd thing, you can't control or choose whom you love, it's simply not possible for a human to do. To base salvation on what is essentially a die-roll(roll d20 to see if I fall in love with Jesus...) is nuts to me...

 

How can an immortal perfect being be that narrow-sighted? How can he be that reckless with eternity?

Of course you are clueless about what some of us are talking about because you never were in relationship with "him" anyway. So, you adopt what is essentially a Catholic picture or attitude and can't see anything else.

 

When something "is nuts to you," you may have a blind spot. One does himself some good by searching out his blind spots rather than joining in with the crowd's name-calling.

[bob]

My experience (and that of my children) is similar to what you wrote about. Christianity provided us a happy life. We were usually filled with peace, had a problem-solving God we were in relationship with. Gratitude overflowed our lives and we couldn't have been more healthy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am finding this topic very interesting. I had an emotional love for the god of the bible. There were times I would weep at the thought of his sacrifice for me. But never the less, he completely ignored me. He never helped me overcome my sexually lustful thoughts, and he never helped me overcome the guilt I carried as a result of those thoughts. All I really got from my relationship with this invisible, undetectable being, was the "knowledge" that I was a sinner, and the hope that I would escape the deserved punishment for being a sinner. Basically, I spent 25 years walking on egg shells, and apologizing to god every time one cracked under my feet.

This is very interesting Reach. Did you and I worship the same god? Did the god(s) we all worshiped reflect our own personalities? Since I am insecure, and have a hard time forgiving myself for past infractions, did I create a god who viewed me as I view myself?

[Reach]

This is very interesting Reach.  Did you and I worship the same god?  Did the god(s) we all worshiped reflect our own personalities?  Since I am insecure, and have a hard time forgiving myself for past infractions, did I create a god who viewed me as I view myself?

Bob, here's the place I've come to on this. I posted this before but I feel this still adequately relects my conclusions, at this time. (Note that I am moveable and I may shift from this position in the future.) I believe that man, faced with his personal disconcerting fears, eventually and inevitably, writes the answers himself for the questions with which he cannot live. He does, in fact, design his own god.

 

That's my guts talking. I also dealt with, I should say, I struggled long and hard with forgiving myself for my own wrong doings. In light of what you're suggesting, it's interesting to note that I discovered a much more forgiving and compassionate God when I learned to view myself in a more compassionate light, let go of my past mistakes and forgive myself. I think our personal version of God is a reflection of our personalities and what we desire to see in that God. We see what we want to see. We see what we are able to see. Sometimes, and probably more frequently than we'd like to admit, we put on blinders to hide from our eyes that which we are unable to accept or acknowledge.

[Merlinfmct87]

Of course you are clueless about what some of us are talking about because you never were in relationship with "him" anyway. So, you adopt what is essentially a Catholic picture or attitude and can't see anything else.

 

Absolutly true, on both counts. Not only am I proudly a 'never was,' my mum was raised Catholic(or should I say they tried to raise her Catholic?).

 

So both my outside and second-hand experience has been just that.

 

When something "is nuts to you," you may have a blind spot. One does himself some good by searching out his blind spots rather than joining in with the crowd's name-calling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I have to be honest, peer pressure has always had very little effect on me... I'm a recluse by habit and I'm rarely aware what the mob thinks, much less giving a care.

 

However... I'm very, very human. If you see a blind spot, I'd appreciate whatever insight you can give me there.

 

So if you can bear the presence of someone as silly as me a little longer, I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

Merlin

[Reach]

Well, I have to be honest, peer pressure has always had very little effect on me... I'm a recluse by habit and I'm rarely aware what the mob thinks, much less giving a care.

 

However... I'm very, very human. If you see a blind spot, I'd appreciate whatever insight you can give me there.

Like you, I have always been an independent thinker. (My mother says that I am stubborn and rebellious.) I have always considered peer pressure as irrelevant to me personally. I was such an individual that I even started designing and constructing my own clothes when I was in grammar school. By high school, I was a professional tailor. To a certain extent, I started fashion trends in my schools, rather than follow them. That should give you an idea of where I stand on peer pressure, which is nothing more than fear-based and insecurity-fed.

 

To the topic, I felt Thomas was asking a sincere question, not just looking for more people to chime in on how stupid Christians are or how they struggle with getting out of an "abusive" relationship.

 

As a Christian, I would have agreed in general with his opening statement, inadequate as it is, "If a Church doesn't help you fall in love with God, then it's not a church that knows God." --Tom Arminger.

 

The point I was trying to make was that not all of us found ourselves in an abusive relationship with a cruel God. A few women have posted that their experience was lacking this abusive element as well. That is another reason we were able to love him.

[Cerise]

Ah, but Reach sometimes love and abuse are intertwined in a way that still eludes. It's at that point where you reach to the same person who has gathered you under a blue blanket of trust, who bestowed intensely all their attention upon you so that fairly quickly, even attention that seizes the stomach and shatters the breath still lodges itself in your mind as an act of love. The place where you reach for them even after they have given you the most fear, because they are also the ones that can give you the most comfort.

 

The most fear, eternal damnation.

 

The most comfort, eternal love.

 

By the way Reach, I was never Catholic.

[Ouroboros]

When I was Christian I loved God with my whole heart and beyond the love for my family, but when I realized that God didn't love my family at all, I asked him to reveal himself and his nature to me if I should keep on believing him. I wanted to understand what it meant with "God loves us", since I could not see that he did. He didn't answer me and still hasn't.

 

I just couldn't love someone that hated my wife and my kids, and refused to answer.

 

Two options were left:

Either God is evil to the roots, demanding my love and obediance, but give nothing back, or he just doesn't exist. Since I still could feel some obligation to where I came from, I prefered to not believe in God, than to believe in a false, lying, deceiving and hateful God.

[Merlinfmct87]

Like you, I have always been an independent thinker. (My mother says that I am stubborn and rebellious.) I have always considered peer pressure as irrelevant to me personally. I was such an individual that I even started designing and constructing my own clothes when I was in grammar school. By high school, I was a professional tailor. To a certain extent, I started fashion trends in my schools, rather than follow them. That should give you an idea of where I stand on peer pressure, which is nothing more than fear-based and insecurity-fed.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis - and color me impressed, a tailor already?

 

I can also relate to being stubborn and rebellious. Fortunately for me, my mum is stubborn and rebellious right along with me, so we still get along.

 

To the topic, I felt Thomas was asking a sincere question, not just looking for more people to chime in on how stupid Christians are or how they struggle with getting out of an "abusive" relationship.

 

As a Christian, I would have agreed in general with his opening statement, inadequate as it is, "If a Church doesn't help you fall in love with God, then it's not a church that knows God." --Tom Arminger.

 

The point I was trying to make was that not all of us found ourselves in an abusive relationship with a cruel God. A few women have posted that their experience was lacking this abusive element as well. That is another reason we were able to love him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is something I'll have to look at then... from my point of view, I can't see it as anything but abusive, for the reasons I outlined earlier. There is something I'm obviously missing(not uncommon). I think a lot of it is because I was never introduced to the Christian God with a friendly lighting... mum gave me the truth of it as only an apostate can and I missed all the apologist 'no it doesn't really mean that, he's really a great guy' stuff.

 

Or I'm being an idiot and missing your point entierly.

 

Thank you for your post, you gave me a lot to chew on.

 

Merlin

[Clergicide]

Of course you are clueless about what some of us are talking about because you never were in relationship with "him" anyway. So, you adopt what is essentially a Catholic picture or attitude and can't see anything else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I happen to have been raised Catholic, and attended St. <omitted> Christian Academy. And you're right, we didn't have a 'relationship' with God, in fact we were taught that we were such scum we couldn't speak to God directly, that honor was reserved for the priests.

 

When something "is nuts to you," you may have a blind spot. One does himself some good by searching out his blind spots rather than joining in with the crowd's name-calling.

 

I am admittedly striving to prove that facets of religous training are in line with mental disorder, but that does not mean that I'm unconcerned with the intricate underpinnings and causes. And it's not something to take offense to. When one says "hey, you seem depressed" we don't usually take offense to it, as if the person is indicating our inferiority in any way. And like depression, I think the cure is in talking and education.

 

I also fully admit that I lack considerable understanding of this 'relationship', but like anything else, I think it's manifestation can be quantified, tested, and studied.

 

The point I was trying to make was that not all of us found ourselves in an abusive relationship with a cruel God. A few women have posted that their experience was lacking this abusive element as well. That is another reason we were able to love him.

 

I have a relation that is Baptist, and they were taught not to read the Old Testament, and to focus on the Gospels until they were 'ready' to study the rest. This person was told this. because they had originally tried to read the bible cover to cover and lots of disturbing and confusing questions were arising. I can see how this approach of presenting the 'love only' side of the religion would be very appealing. At this point in their indoctrination, it no longer matters how absurd, atrocious, heinous, or ludicrous the examples I cite from other books of the bible are, because they are now cocreating the delusion, and dismiss anything that doesn't jive with their beliefs in any way they can imagine.

 

That said. Even the relationship with the loving Jebus seems rather abusive. By abusive I mean that to gain this love he is not afraid of bribery and coercion. You must also sacrifice the freedom of your own mind and heart so that they conform to His wants. It's far more subtle than Catholic guilt, but it's still present. If I'm wrong, then I'm more than open to hearing the exact nature of this relationship, so that I may have a more accurate understanding.

[EdwardAbbey]

Today I was forewarded a mail with this signature line:

What does this line tell you? Can a human truely love a God?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's like asking if it's possible to fall in love with a Leprechaun.

[Angel]

I think that people fall in love with idea of god, which is then confused with a love for god.  Love of god and jesus, for me came from sinner's guilt.  That Jesus died for me, made me love him wholeheartedly.  Then, when I read that good ole' bible, I realized that I didn't really love god or jesus anymore.  I loved the kind and gently version but couldn't love the monster(s) after the truth came to light.  How could I love a being that would fry good and loving people for disbelief, for eternity?  Then I tried to cling to that love but it was love out of fear, then soon, that love turned to loathing for the bible deities. 

 

Even if everything in the bible were true, I can't love god or jesus because I find them (IF TRUE) cruel and evil.  Even if I believed, I couldn't love, it would be fake.  The bible teaches that the most important command is "Love God", I can't love that god anymore or ever again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Perfectly said, felt like I was reading something from my own thoughts. It really does come from guilt and fear. Going to church, loving god/jesus, all of it. No one could ever try to convince me otherwise. I used to believe that I was in love with god, but it was false love. I then felt like I was James Stewart in the movie "Harvey". Little by little everything that I held dear and loved so, I started to fall out of love and eventually getting to the point that it turns my stomach. An ugly divorce if you will. I know that many christians consider me lost and fallen from the faith, but how can you have faith in such a cruel and torturous god? It was an abusive relationship that I had with him if that makes any sense. Very controlling, and makes threats if you do not do as you are told. Everything in your life takes second place to him....including family. You can not talk to people that he does not approve of, even if it is family. In one passage of scripture, Peter's father passed away and Jesus would not allow him to as much as bury him because his needs were more important. How can you even be FRIENDS with someone like that, let alone be in love with them? It really makes me so thankful that I am away from all this. I am so glad to have my life and my mind back.