In And Out Of Faith

[oddbird1963]

Maybe it is his slow reading that I misunderstood as symptoms of depression. But he did sound like someone who got disillusioned. For exmaple, suppose he was in love with a girl and he was 'in heaven'. He felt the deep connection with the girl and he 'lived' in that mutual bond of love. And then he goes to college and meets a professor who convinces him that it was all delusion. She was just acting on her hormone to reproduce her genes. He was in chemical bath inside his brain, etc. etc. After a while, he became convinced. He is now 'facing the truth with integrity'. Yet he misses that love experience which he now knows was an illusions. So he is depressed and sad.

 

I say, try going back to the girl. Perhaps the love was more real than professor's explanations.

 

So you concluded he was depressed based on his voice? It sounds as if you didn't listen to the reasons he gave for deconversion. He told exactly the reasons began to doubt. He realized he was going on emotions and assumptions and not facts, evidence or reason. He began to see his Christian faith for what it is - not for what he wished it to be. Why are you trying to propose some dismissive alternate explanation?

 

The "girl" analogy actually sounds more like the experience you related and reveals more about you than it bears light on the maker of that series on Youtube.

[JayL]

<< So you concluded he was depressed based on his voice? It sounds as if you didn't listen to the reasons he gave for deconversion. He told exactly the reasons began to doubt. He realized he was going on emotions and assumptions and not facts, evidence or reason. He began to see his Christian faith for what it is - not for what he wished it to be. Why are you trying to propose some dismissive alternate explanation? >>

 

 

Actually I couldn't stand his slow voice. But I watched most of his video. The thing is that I have a master's degree in physics and am always interested in philosophy. So I am not unfamiliar with the material. My only hope is that he sounds happier! He never smiles etc. ( Can you imagine Joel Osteen without smiles??? ) It should be part of a package. He should not sound so serious and stoic all the time.

 

Well anyhow, the question is whether it works. I find my current Christian phase to be quite OK as my Christian worldview help me to enjoy little things in life even though my life is not overall all that great.

 

 

By the way, how do you that 'quote thing' so neatly??

[florduh]

I will just go wiht the faith that God can somehow make it all work out.

So far, he hasn't done very well.

[Vigile]

Is the message 'brutally repressive'?? Well, Jesus did warn a lot about hell. And that is scary. But what if he is right? What if there is really the hell waiting for a lot of people?

 

Perhaps you'll prove me wrong but I find you to be uninquisitive. This probably explains your yo-yoing. Prove me wrong, I beg you.

[Ouroboros]

I will just go wiht the faith that God can somehow make it all work out.

So far, he hasn't done very well.

That's right. He got 6,000 years (supposedly) and managed to kill hundreds of thousands of people for not being of the right religion. Not much love or planning there.

[Vigile]

That is such an overwhelming situation. I can pray but I don't know how to deal with it. I will just go wiht the faith that God can somehow make it all work out

 

God didn't make it work out. Millions already died when he supposedly had the power to intervene. Your answer?

[JayL]

<< I attempted suicide (didn't just think about it, I TRIED TO DIE) because I was convinced I'd never be good enough for Jesus. I did it because of the deep anguish the dogma of christianity caused me. I wasn't just frustrated, I WANTED TO DIE. I felt BETTER when I left that poisonous belief. >>

 

 

Probably you don't want to hear what I am going to say and so I have to apologize going in.

 

In my opinion, you totally misunderstood the message of Gospel of Jesus Christ. Totally! 'The dogma' was wrong.

 

Nobody can be good enough for God!! Nobody that I know! That is why Jesus had to die for our sins. And because He died and won forgiveness for you, you can relax. Don't worry about 'being good enoug' for Jesus. He says you are good enough. You can even sin and it is OK. God still loves you after sinning. Believe God is love and just try to experience Love. That is all. Don't worry about all the sin stuff. It is all Ok. As far as I know, that is. But this is how I live.

 

Biblical Christianity should be real easy, in reality. But some churches teach wrong stuff, IMO.

 

But before I realized this important Biblical truth, I was in a lot of pain myself because I was struggling with sin - esp. pornography and lust. I never felt holy and the dissonance was hard to deal with. But now I know that I am holy and acceptable to God only because of Jesus. And this is the real Gospel message as far as my reading of the Bible.

[Deva]

Is the message 'brutally repressive'?? Well, Jesus did warn a lot about hell. And that is scary. But what if he is right? What if there is really the hell waiting for a lot of people? My rational stance is, if you are not sure, buy the insurance. And it turns out that the insurance - receiving salvation in Jesus - is essentially free. You don't have to do anything. Just accept the Gospel message about Jesus dying on the cross and resurrecting. And you are insured and you can sleep well at night without fear of death.

 

On the other hand, there is also so much righteous and beautiful about Jesus. He was a very good man no doubt. So learning about him is not at all objectionable. In fact, I love reading the Gospels. They are just so amazing. There is also the 'fluffy' side to Christian faith - and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Anyhow, that is why I am still in 'Christian phase' and rather unlikely to change for now.

 

 

So its fire insurance. Given that, how can you "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and mind". Speaking only for myself, a protection racket means love goes out the window.

 

Jesus had some fine qualities as presented in the gospels, that I will not deny, but so did Buddha and many other people.

[JayL]

<< God didn't make it work out. Millions already died when he supposedly had the power to intervene. Your answer? >>

 

 

If they believe in Jesus Christ, they may go to Heaven. If that is true, it is all going to be OK. I mean, I am going to die someday as well. Perhaps not in pain of hunger as those sad people. But I am going to DIE and no more. I sure hope the Heaven is there waiting for me !!!

 

 

I am a rational insurance buyer. And to me, anyone who does not buy this free insurance of Christian Gospel is a total nut. I mean, how the heck do you know??? Pascal wager is the most rational argument I have ever read. I find it very convincing.

[JayL]

<< So its fire insurance. Given that, how can you "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and mind". Speaking only for myself, a protection racket means love goes out the window. >>

 

 

You want to hear the real Biblical truth? You can't love. How can we? We are selfish humans driven buy our lusts. We can't. We don't even have a good conception of God let alone love someone who is invisible. This command by Jesus is like most commands of his - cut off your hand if your right hand tries to sin. Or take up your cross and follow Jesus. Nobody can do all these stuff. They can try but they are likely to fail.

 

The only way out is by accepting God's forgiveness in Jesus dying on the cross. Now we are off the hook, in a matter of speaking. I personally summarize the Gospel message as " Jesus did everything. We don't have to do anything. Just believe and buy the insurance, that is all'. But I do thank and love Jesus for this great insurance deal. Yeah, I am putting it so crassly. I apologize. But I think I can talk like this because this is not a Christian forum.

[Deva]

I am a rational insurance buyer. And to me, anyone who does not buy this free insurance of Christian Gospel is a total nut. I mean, how the heck do you know??? Pascal wager is the most rational argument I have ever read. I find it very convincing.

 

First off, it is not "free" insurance. It requires belief, doesn't it? It requires many, many beliefs. It requires a lifetime of allegiance to God.

 

I must be a total nut because I don't buy any of it.

[oddbird1963]

You can even sin and it is OK. God still loves you after sinning. Believe God is love and just try to experience Love. That is all. Don't worry about all the sin stuff. It is all Ok. As far as I know, that is. But this is how I live.

 

Biblical Christianity should be real easy, in reality. But some churches teach wrong stuff, IMO.

 

 

You do realize there are many, many traditions of Christianity going back centuries that strongly disagree with you, don't you? To many of them, you are a heretic and deceiver (worst case scenario) and to the other traditions you have a very selective, simplistic grasp of the Christian faith.

 

If your particular strain of Christianity works for you, then fine and dandy. But your version of Biblical Christianity is merely your response to the Rorschach test that is the Christian religion. The Bible and various creeds are your inkblots and your personal experiences, family influences and surrounding culture influence what your response to that inkblot will be.

 

It's not that some churches teach wrong stuff. They teach their response to the Christian Rorschach. Some peoples' interpretations are just more unique (and self-serving) than others.

[lunaticheathen]

Probably you don't want to hear what I am going to say and so I have to apologize going in.

 

In my opinion, you totally misunderstood the message of Gospel of Jesus Christ. Totally! 'The dogma' was wrong.

 

Like I haven't heard that before.

 

Nobody can be good enough for God!! Nobody that I know! That is why Jesus had to die for our sins. And because He died and won forgiveness for you, you can relax. Don't worry about 'being good enoug' for Jesus. He says you are good enough. You can even sin and it is OK. God still loves you after sinning. Believe God is love and just try to experience Love. That is all. Don't worry about all the sin stuff. It is all Ok. As far as I know, that is. But this is how I live.

 

I left out of extreme pain that horrible people caused me, I admit that. I have stayed away because of slip-shod reasoning just like this.

I have never done ANYTHING so horrible that anyone had to die for it. I have never committed any capital offense. The idea that the simple fact of me being human is enough to warrant eternal torture, for which someone had to die to get me out of, is repulsive to me. No thanks, I don't want to believe that crap either.

 

Biblical Christianity should be real easy, in reality. But some churches teach wrong stuff, IMO.

 

Isn't that such a pretty cop-out? The truth is, the Bible is flawed. Everyone is "wrong" to someone.

 

But before I realized this important Biblical truth, I was in a lot of pain myself because I was struggling with sin - esp. pornography and lust. I never felt holy and the dissonance was hard to deal with. But now I know that I am holy and acceptable to God only because of Jesus. And this is the real Gospel message as far as my reading of the Bible.

 

The only "sin" I struggled with was "in my heart." Can you think of anything more psychotic to tell a teenager, than that everything they naturally think is a sin?? Have you ever experienced the pure mental anguish that causes any normal hormonally driven teen? If not, then you have no idea what I have been through. Not in the least.

Porn is most popular amongst the sexually repressed. I've never had a "pornography problem", because I got out before christianity could completely warp my sexual being, thank the Goddess. Also, I just don't like it.

"Lust" is natural. Deal with it. Humans are sexual beings. It gets warped by repressive belief systems, but others on the outside can deal with sexual feelings in a sane fashion - and have lots more fun.

 

Also, before you throw this out there, I didn't leave because I "wanted to sin." Don't even try that knob, I broke it off.

[Deva]

 

You want to hear the real Biblical truth? You can't love. How can we? We are selfish humans driven buy our lusts. We can't. We don't even have a good conception of God let alone love someone who is invisible. This command by Jesus is like most commands of his - cut off your hand if your right hand tries to sin. Or take up your cross and follow Jesus. Nobody can do all these stuff. They can try but they are likely to fail.

 

The only way out is by accepting God's forgiveness in Jesus dying on the cross. Now we are off the hook, in a matter of speaking. I personally summarize the Gospel message as " Jesus did everything. We don't have to do anything. Just believe and buy the insurance, that is all'. But I do thank and love Jesus for this great insurance deal. Yeah, I am putting it so crassly. I apologize. But I think I can talk like this because this is not a Christian forum.

 

You bet your sweet bippy this isn't a Christian forum. Crass? You haven't heard anything yet. We have thus far been extremely polite. Let's just lay it on the line. You say I can't love, how the hell do you know?

 

Please don't treat us as if we haven't heard this before, we spent 30 years in Christianity, some of us more than that. Selfish humans without Christ? You must be joking. There is nothing more self centered than Christianity. You are totally preoccupied with your salvation day and night.

[lunaticheathen]

Let's just lay it on the line. You say I can't love, how the hell do you know?

 

Please don't treat us as if we haven't heard this before, we spent 30 years in Christianity, some of us more than that. Selfish humans without Christ? You must be joking. There is nothing more self centered than Christianity. You are totally preoccupied with your salvation day and night.

 

Damn straight Deva! WTF, can't love or be selfless without Jeebus? He can stick his "loving Biblical Christianity" straight up his yo-yoing ass if that's how he's going to think of us.

[Deva]

Let's just lay it on the line. You say I can't love, how the hell do you know?

 

Please don't treat us as if we haven't heard this before, we spent 30 years in Christianity, some of us more than that. Selfish humans without Christ? You must be joking. There is nothing more self centered than Christianity. You are totally preoccupied with your salvation day and night.

 

Damn straight Deva! WTF, can't love or be selfless without Jeebus? He can stick his "loving Biblical Christianity" straight up his yo-yoing ass if that's how he's going to think of us.

 

Yeah Lunaticheathen, this is the single most irritating trait of Christians that come here. They know ALL about us and we have never seen or met them. Its cause the Bible tells them so. What a crock.

[JayL]

<< Let's just lay it on the line. You say I can't love, how the hell do you know?

 

Please don't treat us as if we haven't heard this before, we spent 30 years in Christianity, some of us more than that. Selfish humans without Christ? You must be joking. There is nothing more self centered than Christianity. You are totally preoccupied with your salvation day and night.>>

 

 

 

So you could love God who is invisible and not even sure He is real?? Perhaps you were a real saint. I mean, how many people have even right conception of God let alone loving God??

 

Yes, you may have heard all this before. But I am convinced that real Biblical Christianity should be a lot easier than the way it is taught in a lot of churches. For example, in the Bible, salvation is a done deal and we should not worry day and night. I consider it a big misconception. Instead we should focus on leading a positive life in Christ - like Joel Osteen is teaching. That is why he is so popular among Christians and non Christians because actually his approach is the correct one.

[Vigile]

Nobody can be good enough for God!! Nobody that I know! That is why Jesus had to die for our sins. And because He died and won forgiveness for you, you can relax.

 

Yes, this is soooo hard to understand that I'm sure the poster never got it until now. C'mon man, you are talking to us like we are children. Dig deeper.

 

Don't worry about 'being good enoug' for Jesus. He says you are good enough.

 

Yup, ol' Jeff Dahmer is living it up in heaven right now because he believed. Everyone is good enough as long as they believe, even Hitler, but if you don't believe, even if you feed Africa and cure cancer you're fucked my man. The gospel is truly a beautiful thing.

[florduh]

actually his approach is the correct one.

 

[Kuroikaze]

I am a rational insurance buyer. And to me, anyone who does not buy this free insurance of Christian Gospel is a total nut. I mean, how the heck do you know??? Pascal wager is the most rational argument I have ever read. I find it very convincing.

 

If you think Pascal's wager is the most ration argument you have ever heard then YOU are a total nut.

 

I will probably regret wasting my time on this, but Pascal's wager fails to be logical in the following ways.

 

1. It offers a false dichotomy, Well technically he offers FOUR options, but he only offers two choices, the problem is that there are MANY more options available. Perhaps there is a god and he is better represented by ANOTHER religion, perhaps there is a god and he is represented by NONE of them, Perhaps there is a god and he will only allow atheists into heaven, or he does not care about your beliefs at all. In other words, you cannot guarantee, as the argument claims, that the only option with a downside is the one in which one is an atheist and god turns out to be real. And rather than two options there are hundreds if not thousands.

 

2. belief is not "free," it will cost of your time, money, relationships, and personal freedom. If this is the only life you get that is a HEAVY cost.

 

3. Even if the Christian god is real I doubt very much he will be impressed with such a flimsy belief.

 

 

 

You claim to be knowledgeable in philosophy, I find that an unlikely claim given your position on pascal's wager.

[oddbird1963]

Instead we should focus on leading a positive life in Christ - like Joel Osteen is teaching. That is why he is so popular among Christians and non Christians because actually his approach is the correct one.

 

 

Or could it be because his approach is populist and the most crowd pleasing? Maybe?

[Deva]

So you could love God who is invisible and not even sure He is real?? Perhaps you were a real saint. I mean, how many people have even right conception of God let alone loving God??

 

Yes, you may have heard all this before. But I am convinced that real Biblical Christianity should be a lot easier than the way it is taught in a lot of churches. For example, in the Bible, salvation is a done deal and we should not worry day and night. I consider it a big misconception. Instead we should focus on leading a positive life in Christ - like Joel Osteen is teaching. That is why he is so popular among Christians and non Christians because actually his approach is the correct one.

 

Why not? Can't you wrap your mind around loving something intangible, or is that too much? Let's get down to it, did God appear to you in person? As a materialized form? What did he look like? How sure are you that he is real? Maybe its YOU who don't love God. Maybe I am a real saint. Again, how do you know? What is the "right" conception of God? Your personal interpretation of the Bible?

 

Whether or not Christians should worry or not about their salvation is moot. You do, don't you? Otherwise you would not be concerned with "fire insurance".

 

You seem to have a very simplistic theology. Joel Osteen? Oh please... that actually answers a lot. I think I am done.

[JayL]

<< First off, it is not "free" insurance. It requires belief, doesn't it? It requires many, many beliefs. It requires a lifetime of allegiance to God. I must be a total nut because I don't buy any of it. >>

 

It is pretty close to free. All you have to believe is the forgiveness of your sins and that you have peace with God. And the Bible teaches that God is love. So try to look for God's love everywhere. It is really not that bad.

 

Yes, I do think you are being irrational but many people are hurt by churches and they equate the pain with the Bible. Actually the real Biblical Christianity is not all that bad. I mean, why is Joel Osteen so popular? And to my reading of the Bible he is actually quite correct in his theology.

[Vigile]

If they believe in Jesus Christ, they may go to Heaven.

 

And if they never heard of him?

 

Second question, why is belief so important.

 

I am a rational insurance buyer

 

I'm surprised no one has yet raised the issue. Are you rational? What if Mohamed was the true prophet. Christians will burn in the Muslim hell. Hope you made the right choice, you're in the minority as far as religions are concerned.

[JayL]

<< Again, how do you know? What is the "right" conception of God? Your personal interpretation of the Bible? >>

 

 

Well the real Gospel picture of God IS Jesus of Nazareth. He was a great guy even though he was so strict in his morals. I say he is fantastic !

 

 

 

 

<< Whether or not Christians should worry or not about their salvation is moot. You do, don't you? Otherwise you would not be concerned with "fire insurance". >>

 

Yeah, I had fear of death and possibility of hell. But now I am much more at peace.

 

 

 

<< You seem to have a very simplistic theology. Joel Osteen? Oh please... that actually answers a lot. I think I am done. >>

 

 

See? This is what I mean. People are so shocked to hear that Joel Osteen is actually more correct and true to the Bible than most Christians out there.