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Goodbye Jesus

In And Out Of Faith


JayL

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<< First off, it is not "free" insurance. It requires belief, doesn't it? It requires many, many beliefs. It requires a lifetime of allegiance to God. I must be a total nut because I don't buy any of it. >>

 

It is pretty close to free. All you have to believe is the forgiveness of your sins and that you have peace with God. And the Bible teaches that God is love. So try to look for God's love everywhere. It is really not that bad.

 

Yes, I do think you are being irrational but many people are hurt by churches and they equate the pain with the Bible. Actually the real Biblical Christianity is not all that bad. I mean, why is Joel Osteen so popular? And to my reading of the Bible he is actually quite correct in his theology.

 

I must insist it is not "pretty close to free." The Christian worldview demands that I think of myself as a depraved sinner so corrupt God had to do a blood sacrifice thing. No thanks. The cost is too high. "God's love" is that bad, because I must also believe he is totally good and also all powerful. It is not a good world. This does not compute.

 

Might as well ask that I undergo a lobotomy.

 

Pain is not in a book, bad as I believe the Biblical message to be. Pain is in the mind. If Joel is popular, does that mean he is right?

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I am a rational insurance buyer. And to me, anyone who does not buy this free insurance of Christian Gospel is a total nut. I mean, how the heck do you know??? Pascal wager is the most rational argument I have ever read. I find it very convincing.

Pascal's Wager is the most rational argument you have read? You haven't read much then.

 

Why don't you believe in Allah and profess Mohammad as the prophet?

 

If you believe in Allah and Mohammad you'll go to Muslim Heaven. If you don't, you go to Muslim Hell. Do you really want to go there?

 

You must, according to Pascal's reasoning, become a Muslim as well. And a Jew. And a Raelian. And a Zoroastrian. And a Hindu. And a Buddhist. And a ...

 

What is better? To insure yourself form any possible harm, or not insure yourself at all? So far you have only covered one possible outcome. Now it's time to cover yourself for all the others.

 

Besides, as some other members here already pointed out, you are buying the insurance from the same person who is threatening to harm you if you don't. It's like the "protection" the mob is giving to local stores. "Pay us 10% or something will happen to your store." And they are the ones "happening." You shouldn't bend to threats like that. It's a sign of chickening out.

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See? This is what I mean. People are so shocked to hear that Joel Osteen is actually more correct and true to the Bible than most Christians out there.

 

I'll give Osteen one thing. He's not caustic and hateful. Beyond that, he's still a used-car salesman, milking granny's retirement for fuzzy-wuzzy books that say nothing to fill her bookshelves.

And I don't care if he's correct about the Bible. The Bible is still crap.

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<< And if they never heard of him? >>

 

If they have never heard of him, they would be judged according their actions - at least that is what the bible says. Good and kind people may still make it to the Heaven. Then it would be OK even though they had very tough life here. But still according to the Bible the chance of getting to Heaven increases a lot - like to 100% when you believe in Jesus Christ.

 

 

<< Second question, why is belief so important. >>

 

Belief does not cost you too much. ( In America there is no persecution for being Christian. ) But actually belief changes you from the inside and you do become a better person. I think it is God's genius to make this a matter of belief in Jesus Christ. This is one reason why Christianity is so successful. In my opinion.

 

 

 

 

<< I'm surprised no one has yet raised the issue. Are you rational? What if Mohamed was the true prophet. Christians will burn in the Muslim hell. Hope you made the right choice, you're in the minority as far as religions are concerned. >>

 

I am going by the supreme intellect named Pascal and his wager. So I am talking about Christianity. Not only do I think I am acting rationally, ANYONE who does not take advantage of this free insurance - the Gospel message of salvation in Jesus Christ - is acting irrationally. ( But if there is persecution for being Christian belivers, obviously the cost goes up!!! )

 

Mohammed was just a very bad man. He was a killer and rapist. I see him as a dangerous cult leader like Jim Jones or Charles Manson. I just cannot believe his Allah god is all that respectable. So in that religion, I can revert back to being a rabid atheist! I will not bow down to Mecca. I'd rather criticise the guy for all his violent acts and his stupid poetry. People should really denounce that guy. Islam is hideous.

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The Christian worldview demands that I think of myself as a depraved sinner so corrupt God had to do a blood sacrifice thing. No thanks.

 

THIS! This a thousand times over! Screw that, I am NOT that bad! I'm far from perfect, but holy crap, WHO THINKS THIS??

 

Oh, right...

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<< And if they never heard of him? >>

 

If they have never heard of him, they would be judged according their actions - at least that is what the bible says. Good and kind people may still make it to the Heaven. Then it would be OK even though they had very tough life here. But still according to the Bible the chance of getting to Heaven increases a lot - like to 100% when you believe in Jesus Christ.

Then it is better to NOT to witness to them. If they never heard, they have a better chance to go to Heaven. When you witness to them, they must take a side, and you have forced their hands. Before your witnessing, they had the chance to get into Heaven based on their actions, after your action, they must believe to get in there.

 

 

<< Second question, why is belief so important. >>

 

Belief does not cost you too much. ( In America there is no persecution for being Christian. ) But actually belief changes you from the inside and you do become a better person. I think it is God's genius to make this a matter of belief in Jesus Christ. This is one reason why Christianity is so successful. In my opinion.

I don't believe in Jesus or God. So?

 

Can I make myself believe in something I believe is imaginary? Can you make yourself believe in Santa Claus?

 

 

<< I'm surprised no one has yet raised the issue. Are you rational? What if Mohamed was the true prophet. Christians will burn in the Muslim hell. Hope you made the right choice, you're in the minority as far as religions are concerned. >>

 

I am going by the supreme intellect named Pascal and his wager. So I am talking about Christianity. Not only do I think I am acting rationally, ANYONE who does not take advantage of this free insurance - the Gospel message of salvation in Jesus Christ - is acting irrationally. ( But if there is persecution for being Christian belivers, obviously the cost goes up!!! )

Pascal's wager can be applied to Islam as well. It can. It's a generic rule, and it just so happened that Pascal applied it to specifically Christianity. (Which kind of Christianity by the way? Which version of Christianity did Pascal belong to?)

 

Mohammed was just a very bad man. He was a killer and rapist. I see him as a dangerous cult leader like Jim Jones or Charles Manson. I just cannot believe his Allah god is all that respectable. So in that religion, I can revert back to being a rabid atheist! I will not bow down to Mecca. I'd rather criticise the guy for all his violent acts and his stupid poetry. People should really denounce that guy. Islam is hideous.

So what? If it's true, you must believe. You can't choose God's character, or his choice of prophets.

 

Basically you're not picking Christianity because of Pascal's wager, but because of what you like or not. It's like picking ice cream flavor. You like vanilla, therefore all other flavors are evil.

 

Moses did bad things. Jesus broke the law. Jesus even went on angry rampages. Martin Luther hated Jews. So why do you think Christianity is cute? You're selecting the good things and ignore the bad.

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<< Pascal's Wager is the most rational argument you have read? You haven't read much then.

Why don't you believe in Allah and profess Mohammad as the prophet? If you believe in Allah and Mohammad you'll go to Muslim Heaven. If you don't, you go to Muslim Hell. Do you really want to go there? >>

 

 

That is a very good point. Pascal's wager is not sufficient. People do have to investigate all these religions just to be sure.

 

To me, Islam has some attraction. The idea of paradise filled with nubile virgins is not all that bad!!! But then you have to die in a battle for Allah to get the certainty of that paradise. So in a way, you have to pay with your life! That is a steep cost. Other than dying in Jihad battle, it is not so certain. And you have to do a lot! Like praying 5 times a day, keeping halal food, dressing muslin, supporting an objectionable cult guy like Mohammed. Death threats against apostasy. etc.

 

I really think Islam is a lie. And I am willing to face some chance that Allah may be the real God and He is actually a cynical and cruel guy. I just look at Mohammed and say, hey, I will take a chance that the whole thing is a lie.

 

 

But when it comes to Christianity, it is not that bad. Jesus was a great person. He is non violent. He is just way too ultra ethical. He was an amazing person. And I can imagine he is the Son of God. ( Mohammed guy may have been the Son of devil! LOL ) And the cost is so low that Pascal wager works and I am willing to buy the insurance.

 

And having bought into the coverage, I am actually quite happy. That is why I am still in the Christian phase.

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<< Basically you're not picking Christianity because of Pascal's wager, but because of what you like or not. It's like picking ice cream flavor. You like vanilla, therefore all other flavors are evil. >>

 

 

Yes, it takes more than Pascal's wager. But it is a still convincing argument. And no, it is more than ice cream flavor. Read my view on Islam above. I believe Islam is a dangerous cult that is incompatible with human freedom.

 

 

 

 

<< Moses did bad things. Jesus broke the law. Jesus even went on angry rampages. Martin Luther hated Jews. So why do you think Christianity is cute? You're selecting the good things and ignore the bad. >>

 

 

Jesus is definitely the best among religious figures. My rule of thumb is " Jesus and Buddha can stay. Mohamed and Moses must go. "

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I am going by the supreme intellect named Pascal and his wager. So I am talking about Christianity. Not only do I think I am acting rationally, ANYONE who does not take advantage of this free insurance - the Gospel message of salvation in Jesus Christ - is acting irrationally. ( But if there is persecution for being Christian belivers, obviously the cost goes up!!! )

 

Mohammed was just a very bad man. He was a killer and rapist. I see him as a dangerous cult leader like Jim Jones or Charles Manson. I just cannot believe his Allah god is all that respectable. So in that religion, I can revert back to being a rabid atheist! I will not bow down to Mecca. I'd rather criticise the guy for all his violent acts and his stupid poetry. People should really denounce that guy. Islam is hideous.

This is looking like a joke now. Nobody is this stupid.

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My rule of thumb is " Jesus and Buddha can stay. Mohamed and Moses must go. "

And there's the clincher.

 

Who is this, really? Grandpa Harley back for a little joke?

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Actually, "jihad" is greatly misunderstood. Yes, it means a struggle against perceived "opponents of Islam." But the physical manifestation as a real-world battle is, technically, the "lesser jihad." There is a "greater jihad", which is the struggle of the individual, within his own soul to keep the tenants of Islam, and be holy.

By no means am I an apologist for Islam. It is a bloody and disgusting faith, but I don't see it as being any worse than Christianity. The only real difference is that Christianity has had time to calm down and become old and grumpy, instead of young, rebellious and pissed off. Look back to the Middle Ages to see Christianity where Islam is presently.

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Besides, as some other members here already pointed out, you are buying the insurance from the same person who is threatening to harm you if you don't. It's like the "protection" the mob is giving to local stores. "Pay us 10% or something will happen to your store." And they are the ones "happening." You shouldn't bend to threats like that. It's a sign of chickening out.

 

 

Well, I AM a chicken to some extent. Many people do pay mobster racket because it is cheaper than face their violence. That too is a rational response given the situation. Is that right? Well not in a perfect world. But that is why I classify myself as a pragmatist. I think Pascal's wager do appeal to those who are 'desperate enough' to be a pragmatist. But once again, what if the hell is real? I want to avoid it as best as I can. And the Christian Gospel is not all that bad. It may actually be the opposite of mobster racket because the cost is so low. It is actually like the Walmart. I love Walmart.

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The thing is that I have a master's degree in physics and am always interested in philosophy.

 

 

I am having a hard time believing this.

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<< Pascal's Wager is the most rational argument you have read? You haven't read much then.

Why don't you believe in Allah and profess Mohammad as the prophet? If you believe in Allah and Mohammad you'll go to Muslim Heaven. If you don't, you go to Muslim Hell. Do you really want to go there? >>

 

That is a very good point. Pascal's wager is not sufficient. People do have to investigate all these religions just to be sure.

Agree. You have to investigate much more than just relying on Pascal's Wager.

 

To me, Islam has some attraction. The idea of paradise filled with nubile virgins is not all that bad!!! But then you have to die in a battle for Allah to get the certainty of that paradise. So in a way, you have to pay with your life! That is a steep cost. Other than dying in Jihad battle, it is not so certain. And you have to do a lot! Like praying 5 times a day, keeping halal food, dressing muslin, supporting an objectionable cult guy like Mohammed. Death threats against apostasy. etc.

Right. So? Again, if it's true, then why avoid it? You can't just demand what is acceptable for salvation. It's not up to you, but up to God/Allah. Isn't it?

 

Basically, you're judging the religion from what you dislike. You're putting yourself over God's will and commandments. You're making yourself God.

 

I really think Islam is a lie. And I am willing to face some chance that Allah may be the real God and He is actually a cynical and cruel guy. I just look at Mohammed and say, hey, I will take a chance that the whole thing is a lie.

So you're taking the chances because you don't like the procedure?

 

In other words, you rather take the easy path and take your chances with it, instead of paying the price by following a hard and narrow road.

 

But when it comes to Christianity, it is not that bad. Jesus was a great person. He is non violent. He is just way too ultra ethical. He was an amazing person. And I can imagine he is the Son of God. ( Mohammed guy may have been the Son of devil! LOL ) And the cost is so low that Pascal wager works and I am willing to buy the insurance.

Again, you're taking the wide road for your own convenience, instead of a fire insurance.

 

And having bought into the coverage, I am actually quite happy. That is why I am still in the Christian phase.

So why are there people who leave Christianity and are happy?

 

Christianity adds unnecessary routines and beliefs to the daily life. I can take my chances out of convenience too.

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<< It is a bloody and disgusting faith, but I don't see it as being any worse than Christianity. The only real difference is that Christianity has had time to calm down and become old and grumpy, instead of young, rebellious and pissed off. Look back to the Middle Ages to see Christianity where Islam is presently. >>

 

 

Actually it is much worse because Mohammed was like any other horny guy who loves to fight and kill enemies and rape women. The guy was a freaking criminal.

 

 

Jesus was a quite respectable religious figure. A peaceful rabbi. Actually he is one of the best. But he did have some unique ideas and that is why he is more controversial than Buddha. But to me, both Jesus and Buddha are OK as religious teachers. In my opinion, Mohammed is not!

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<< Basically you're not picking Christianity because of Pascal's wager, but because of what you like or not. It's like picking ice cream flavor. You like vanilla, therefore all other flavors are evil. >>

 

 

Yes, it takes more than Pascal's wager. But it is a still convincing argument. And no, it is more than ice cream flavor. Read my view on Islam above. I believe Islam is a dangerous cult that is incompatible with human freedom.

Of the 2.1 billion Muslims only a handful are dangerous.

 

Of the 2.2 billion Christians, there are dangerous Christians as well. (Look at Africa and the witch hunts.)

 

And if your response is that evil Christians are not true Christians, then why aren't evil Muslims false Muslims as well?

 

According to some Muslims, Islam is a religion of peace. Are they all lying? Are they just white-washing their religion just like you are about Christianity?

 

<< Moses did bad things. Jesus broke the law. Jesus even went on angry rampages. Martin Luther hated Jews. So why do you think Christianity is cute? You're selecting the good things and ignore the bad. >>

 

Jesus is definitely the best among religious figures. My rule of thumb is " Jesus and Buddha can stay. Mohamed and Moses must go. "

Moses must go? Interesting. So Moses wasn't a true prophet? Or?

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Besides, as some other members here already pointed out, you are buying the insurance from the same person who is threatening to harm you if you don't. It's like the "protection" the mob is giving to local stores. "Pay us 10% or something will happen to your store." And they are the ones "happening." You shouldn't bend to threats like that. It's a sign of chickening out.

 

 

Well, I AM a chicken to some extent. Many people do pay mobster racket because it is cheaper than face their violence. That too is a rational response given the situation. Is that right? Well not in a perfect world. But that is why I classify myself as a pragmatist. I think Pascal's wager do appeal to those who are 'desperate enough' to be a pragmatist. But once again, what if the hell is real? I want to avoid it as best as I can. And the Christian Gospel is not all that bad. It may actually be the opposite of mobster racket because the cost is so low. It is actually like the Walmart. I love Walmart.

If the penalty for not shopping at Wallmart was eternal torment, then it would be a racket. Doesn't matter if you only pay 99 cents to avoid the beating.

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<< nor do I find the message to be enlightened, instead being brutally repressive.

For me, it was the discovery that it's an ultimatum based on fear, and not a fluffy doctrine of love, that soured the initial intoxication that was felt by thinking I was aligning myself with a noble and righteous being. >>

 

 

Is the message 'brutally repressive'?? Well, Jesus did warn a lot about hell. And that is scary. But what if he is right? What if there is really the hell waiting for a lot of people? My rational stance is, if you are not sure, buy the insurance. And it turns out that the insurance - receiving salvation in Jesus - is essentially free. You don't have to do anything. Just accept the Gospel message about Jesus dying on the cross and resurrecting. And you are insured and you can sleep well at night without fear of death.

 

Are you familiar with Pascal's Wager, or did you just think of that yourself?

 

Are you also familiar with the weaknesses of the Wager? And why your idea of accepting the gospel as "insurance" really sucks?

 

Not to mention that unless you believe the tooth fairy is real, you won't get any coins when you lose your teeth.

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<< So why are there people who leave Christianity and are happy? >>

 

 

I was kinda happy to go into my atheist phase during the last time. But then my life went downhill and I became real depressed. ( That is one reason why I thought that Youtube guy was depressed. )

 

It is possible that one cannot be really happy without strong faith in God because life is so hard.

 

 

Well, so it is a crutch and a great insurance. But I am happy for now and I still recommend Jesus Christ to others. I don't see too much wrong with it.

 

Another thing. Christianity is so interesting. It fulfills my intellectual need as well.

 

 

Just look at this forum. I am getting entertained by just being here. If I were a atheist, I will not be here. I may be watching some porn movies instead and get no intellectual stimulation.

 

 

Anyhow, thanks for all your responses. I will be baaack.

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<< So why are there people who leave Christianity and are happy? >>

 

 

I was kinda happy to go into my atheist phase during the last time. But then my life went downhill and I became real depressed. ( That is one reason why I thought that Youtube guy was depressed. )

Sorry to hear that.

 

It is possible that one cannot be really happy without strong faith in God because life is so hard.

I truly feel much better after my de-conversion.

 

How long were you an atheist?

 

Well, so it is a crutch and a great insurance. But I am happy for now and I still recommend Jesus Christ to others. I don't see too much wrong with it.

Sure. (Even though we've heard it a million times from other preachers... :))

 

Another thing. Christianity is so interesting. It fulfills my intellectual need as well.

Really?

 

I felt the opposite. My intellectual interest increased hundredfold after the de-conversion. I felt hemmed and halted in growth under religion, and being freed from it released my mind to expand into so much more. I could (and can) look at issues from so many more viewpoints now.

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<< If the penalty for not shopping at Wallmart was eternal torment, then it would be a racket. Doesn't matter if you only pay 99 cents to avoid the beating. >>

 

 

But it is so painless, it may not be a racket! It may be a great service. I am saying Christianity is not all that bad despite fears of hell - because the cost is so low. I love Walmart, what can I say?

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<< If the penalty for not shopping at Wallmart was eternal torment, then it would be a racket. Doesn't matter if you only pay 99 cents to avoid the beating. >>

 

 

But it is so painless, it may not be a racket! It may be a great service. I am saying Christianity is not all that bad despite fears of hell - because the cost is so low. I love Walmart, what can I say?

You don't see it?

 

The penalty for not accepting your religious belief is eternal torment. It's a racket.

 

Besides, Jesus was a human sacrifice, something Israel got rid of with Baal.

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The thing is that I have a master's degree in physics and am always interested in philosophy.

 

:lmao: :lmao: Stop it! You're killin' me! :lmao::lmao:

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<< If the penalty for not shopping at Wallmart was eternal torment, then it would be a racket. Doesn't matter if you only pay 99 cents to avoid the beating. >>

 

 

But it is so painless, it may not be a racket! It may be a great service. I am saying Christianity is not all that bad despite fears of hell - because the cost is so low. I love Walmart, what can I say?

Why is it that most Christians sound so naive? So innocent. So ignorant.

 

Is it because they have shut their minds in a childish fantasy? Become like children?

 

There is absolutely no understanding or empathy. They can't even imagine that we may not believe in gods for the same reasons that they have rejected Marduk, Rah, Zeus or Vishnu. And just "believing" is not a possibility.

 

It is as though their minds are locked in a prison - a "jayl" if you will - and thinking is no longer possible.

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Actually it is much worse because Mohammed was like any other horny guy who loves to fight and kill enemies and rape women. The guy was a freaking criminal.

Granted. Muhammed is closer to reputable recorded history, and he's a disgusting character. One reason I never became muslim.

 

Jesus was a quite respectable religious figure. A peaceful rabbi. Actually he is one of the best. But he did have some unique ideas and that is why he is more controversial than Buddha. But to me, both Jesus and Buddha are OK as religious teachers. In my opinion, Mohammed is not!

Now we come to Jesus, where we have NO reliable objective histories related to him! I won't accept the Gospel accounts any more than I'd trust the Koran or the Hadith to be objective. How do we know he's peaceful? Especially when one of those "peaceful" Gospels has Jesus saying "I come not to bring peace, but a sword" and that he would "Turn father against son", and such. Forgive me if those are not exact quotes, but there are valid arguments for Militant Jesus and Peaceful Jesus. I don't buy that one is reliably "better" than the other.

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