In And Out Of Faith

[Ouroboros]

Why is it that most Christians sound so naive? So innocent. So ignorant.

 

Is it because they have shut their minds in a childish fantasy? Become like children?

Do you want the long or short answer?

 

I know, I'll give you the long answer: Yes.

[centauri]

JayL:

Is the message 'brutally repressive'??

The message demands that a person conform to the demands of a dictator.

Failure to comply results in damnation and eternal punishment.

Why is such a policy not repressive?

 

Well, Jesus did warn a lot about hell. And that is scary. But what if he is right? What if there is really the hell waiting for a lot of people?

Jesus of Nazareth, assuming he existed as the New Testament describes, was a cult leader.

Lots of cult leaders have warned about all sorts of things.

Does that justify using warnings about hell to coerce and intimidate people into believing something?

 

On the other hand, there is also so much righteous and beautiful about Jesus. He was a very good man no doubt.

There’s plenty of doubt about the Biblical character called “Jesus” being a very good man.

A good man doesn’t threaten others with eternal damnation for failure to conform to his demands.

Nor does a good man make promises he doesn’t keep.

 

There is also the 'fluffy' side to Christian faith - and there is nothing wrong with that.

Anyhow, that is why I am still in 'Christian phase' and rather unlikely to change for now.

Jesus can be anything you want him to be.

However, if the entire Bible is to be taken seriously, the death of Jesus doesn’t save anyone.

It’s not even a valid sacrifice for sin.

 

Well the real Gospel picture of God IS Jesus of Nazareth.

That’s wishful thinking on your part.

Jesus of Nazareth claimed that he had a god, even after he had ascended.

[JayL]

<< THIS! This a thousand times over! Screw that, I am NOT that bad! I'm far from perfect, but holy crap, WHO THINKS THIS?? >>

 

 

See you are responding to Deva who is not quite right in her conception of sin. Sin means 'not perfect', It does not necessarily mean depraved. When you say you are not perfect you are being Biblical correct - that we are 'sinners' in front of God who IS perfect and holy. You don't have to be depraved to be a sinner because sinner means just imperfect.

 

There are just so many misconception and many potential discussions, I may keep coming here.

[JayL]

<< Well the real Gospel picture of God IS Jesus of Nazareth.

 

That’s wishful thinking on your part.

Jesus of Nazareth claimed that he had a god, even after he had ascended. >>

 

 

Jesus said that he and the Father are one and the same. Jesus IS the physical picture of God. That is Biblical Christianity.

[lunaticheathen]

See you are responding to Deva who is not quite right in her conception of sin. Sin means 'not perfect', It does not necessarily mean depraved. When you say you are not perfect you are being Biblical correct - that we are 'sinners' in front of God who IS perfect and holy. You don't have to be depraved to be a sinner because sinner means just imperfect.

 

There are just so many misconception and many potential discussions, I may keep coming here.

 

Still, the point stands that "imperfect" means one is eternally tortured. And that's just sick. And someone had to DIE because people are imperfect? Bullshit, plain and simple.

[JayL]

<< However, if the entire Bible is to be taken seriously, the death of Jesus doesn’t save anyone.

It’s not even a valid sacrifice for sin. >>

 

 

As a Christian, I mostly stick to New Testament. There it is real clear. How do you expect people to delve in the Old Testament when they have trouble getting thru the New?? New Testament is a lot closer to modern mentality is far more accessible.

[Guest ephymeris]

I was kinda happy to go into my atheist phase during the last time. But then my life went downhill and I became real depressed. ( That is one reason why I thought that Youtube guy was depressed. )

 

Is everything in your life just about what makes you feel good? Seriously, you seem such a slave to your emotions I wonder how you have any interest in physics and philosophy. It's like you're willing to turn away from truth and logic just to feed your emotional black hole.

 

 

It is possible that one cannot be really happy without strong faith in God because life is so hard.

 

Apparently it's not possible for you at this point and your own emotions are what dictate reality to you. For the record, I have been really happy and god free for many years now. My life is awesome and that is from my own efforts, not from leaning on a crutch or buying fire insurance.

 

 

Well, so it is a crutch and a great insurance. But I am happy for now and I still recommend Jesus Christ to others. I don't see too much wrong with it.

 

Truth be damned, it makes you feel good. Smart.

 

Another thing. Christianity is so interesting. It fulfills my intellectual need as well.

 

I'm not sure letting an authoritative group dictate your superstitions is really a way to fulfill an intellectual need. Seems like more fodder for the emotional black hole...

 

Just look at this forum. I am getting entertained by just being here. If I were a atheist, I will not be here. I may be watching some porn movies instead and get no intellectual stimulation.

 

You succeeded in being offensive and none too subtle, jackass. Not a very christ-like thing to do in my opinion. Does jesus approve of your snarkyness?.

[JayL]

<< Still, the point stands that "imperfect" means one is eternally tortured. And that's just sick. And someone had to DIE because people are imperfect? Bullshit, plain and simple. >>

 

 

I think there are some misunderstandings but also your points are reasonable. First, when I read the New testament, I do not come across this idea of 'eternal torture'. Jesus said that he came, 'that they many not perish'. So the risk is death and nothingness or some finite amount of hell experience. But not eternal torment. Eternal torment is not there even though many churches do ascribe to it.

 

Also the Biblical view of judgment is that people would be judged according to their deeds. People who do good get rewarded and evil people do get punished.

 

But there is a 'Grace Ticket'. That is to believe in Jesus sacrifice on the cross. In that way, there is forgiveness just by affirming Jesus to be the Son of God. The Biblical view is that God provided this 'Grace way' because He wants more people to go to Heaven than warranted by their own action.

 

Once again, this is a big topic with a lot of different views.

 

For me personally, I want to take this 'Grace ticket' and I am overall happy. In fact, according to Pascal's wager, this is a rational step to take.

[JayL]

<< Truth be damned, it makes you feel good. Smart. >>

 

As Pilate once asked, 'What is the truth?'

 

 

 

<<You succeeded in being offensive and none too subtle, jackass. Not a very christ-like thing to do in my opinion. Does jesus approve of your snarkyness?. >>

 

 

Ok, I was being too brutally honest. I had a lot of problem with addiction to porn in the past. But thanks to God, I am a lot better.

[JayL]

Actually, "jihad" is greatly misunderstood. Yes, it means a struggle against perceived "opponents of Islam." But the physical manifestation as a real-world battle is, technically, the "lesser jihad." There is a "greater jihad", which is the struggle of the individual, within his own soul to keep the tenants of Islam, and be holy.

By no means am I an apologist for Islam. It is a bloody and disgusting faith, but I don't see it as being any worse than Christianity. The only real difference is that Christianity has had time to calm down and become old and grumpy, instead of young, rebellious and pissed off. Look back to the Middle Ages to see Christianity where Islam is presently.

 

 

I don't worry about their greater jihad. I hope those suicide bombing idiots stick to their greater jihad idea.

 

I am not talking about middle age church. I am saying compare Jesus with Mohammed because they are the top guys. People should chuck that Mohammed guy and follow Jesus, Buddha or be atheists.

[oddbird1963]

Jesus said that he and the Father are one and the same. Jesus IS the physical picture of God. That is Biblical Christianity.

 

Biblical Christianity = your interpretation or a Rorschach inkblot.

 

Once again, you do realize that there are many traditions of Christianity going back centuries that would see you as 1) Deceived 2) deceiver 3) heretic 4) simplistic 5) self-serving.

 

You are cherry picking the Christianity you wish were true, quite superficially and simplistically. How do you know God won't send you to hell for being superficial rather than a sinner?

[godlessgrrl]

I will never understand why on earth you religious types believe that offering a scientific explanation for love somehow means that love isn't real or is "just an illusion". Frankly, knowing that love is a state caused by shifting brain chemistry makes it a lot more real than trying to ascribe it to a vague, ill-defined deity that hasn't been demonstrated to exist in the first place.

 

And you buy Pascal's Wager? Seriously? That's a pretty slimy reason to believe in god, frankly. You'd rather hedge your bets out of fear than actually believe because it's true?

 

I call Poe. And shenanigans.

[Ouroboros]

See you are responding to Deva who is not quite right in her conception of sin. Sin means 'not perfect', It does not necessarily mean depraved.

So it's not a perfect world? What did God do wrong? He created it, but yet... Oh, yeah, Satan (created by God) deceived man (created by God) to eat a fruit (created by God) in disobedience to God's command. Why is it that God pops up everywhere as the reason to all-things, but never blamed for the same?

 

When you say you are not perfect you are being Biblical correct - that we are 'sinners' in front of God who IS perfect and holy.

God created an imperfect man and an imperfect Satan. Can God create something imperfect when he is perfect?

 

You don't have to be depraved to be a sinner because sinner means just imperfect.

It's God's fault.

 

There are just so many misconception and many potential discussions, I may keep coming here.

Right. Just like the misconceptions of God and God's nature. Who are you do know what God is? Are you God?

 

You're talking as a proxy for a being which you have no real knowledge of. You assume and guess, and think you know it all. Good for you.

[lunaticheathen]

 

I think there are some misunderstandings but also your points are reasonable. First, when I read the New testament, I do not come across this idea of 'eternal torture'. Jesus said that he came, 'that they many not perish'. So the risk is death and nothingness or some finite amount of hell experience. But not eternal torment. Eternal torment is not there even though many churches do ascribe to it.

 

Oh, so Revelations and the Epistles aren't part of your New Testament readings? Even if we grant there is no eternal torture, death/obliteration is fair for those that aren't "perfect?"

 

Also the Biblical view of judgment is that people would be judged according to their deeds. People who do good get rewarded and evil people do get punished.

 

So, Paul was kidding when he said "By faith are we judged, so that no man may boast"?

 

But there is a 'Grace Ticket'. That is to believe in Jesus sacrifice on the cross. In that way, there is forgiveness just by affirming Jesus to be the Son of God. The Biblical view is that God provided this 'Grace way' because He wants more people to go to Heaven than warranted by their own action.

This is what Paul was talking about. Do you want you cake, and to eat it too?

 

Once again, this is a big topic with a lot of different views.

 

No shit. No one disagrees more than two christians.

 

For me personally, I want to take this 'Grace ticket' and I am overall happy. In fact, according to Pascal's wager, this is a rational step to take.

 

No matter that many people have explained to you how Pascal's Wager isn't rational at all, go ahead and try having your cake and eating it too.

[Ouroboros]

<< However, if the entire Bible is to be taken seriously, the death of Jesus doesn’t save anyone.

It’s not even a valid sacrifice for sin. >>

 

 

As a Christian, I mostly stick to New Testament. There it is real clear. How do you expect people to delve in the Old Testament when they have trouble getting thru the New?? New Testament is a lot closer to modern mentality is far more accessible.

Ah, yes. 2,000 years ago, people know truth better than us today. They knew how to spot a con artist from a real magician. Jesus, he was the real magician. No fake there. You can tell just from the stories; they're so convincingly physical accurate and medically correct. Especially about the thing of casting out demons to cure epilepsy. He got that one right.

 

What was the story now again? Kids being tortured and killed in Africa because they have demons in them? They're the True Christians.

[lunaticheathen]

I am not talking about middle age church. I am saying compare Jesus with Mohammed because they are the top guys. People should chuck that Mohammed guy and follow Jesus, Buddha or be atheists.

 

Of course you wouldn't talk about the Middle Age church, because it would prove my point. And there is still no proof that Jesus is the great hippie guy you claim he is.

[JayL]

<< According to some Muslims, Islam is a religion of peace. Are they all lying? Are they just white-washing their religion just like you are about Christianity? >>

 

 

Yes, to an extent they do whitewash. Actually to say Islam means peace is inaccurate. Islam, above all, means SUBMISSION, not peace. Their conception of peace is that peace comes only when the world submits to Allah god of Islam. Until then there is never ending jihad wars.

 

 

Christian conception of peace is more readily accessible - just believe the Gospel message of Jesus Christ and you will experience personal peace. It is not submission, but believing. In a way, the price is a lot lower to go with Christian faith in terms of Pascal's wager. And this idea of 'almost free insurance' is a realistic, if a crass picture.

 

I still think being a Christian is a rational choice given the uncertainties and difficulties of life.

[JayL]

Actually given the 2000 year time difference, it is amazing how relevant the New Testament is.

[lunaticheathen]

Christianity ISN'T submission??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Now I have to pull out all of the stops. I wasn't going to post this, but, really, fuck you.

 

[JayL]

<< So, Paul was kidding when he said "By faith are we judged, so that no man may boast"? >>

 

 

The correct quote is, 'By faith we are saved, that no one may boast.'

 

 

 

But what about people without faith? Paul also talks about God judging people according to their deeds and there is no idea of 'automatic hell for unbelievers'. I think idea is actually unbiblical because the New Testament clearly follows Jewish idea of just God who judges people according to their deeds. But the controversial part of Paul's teaching is that he is quite pessimistic about all humans. He thinks all people should accept the Gospel of Grace if they are to have any realistic chance. But that is Paul. Personally, I was happy to take his advise because uncertainty of death used to be a big worry for me.

[Che]

The idea of paradise filled with nubile virgins is not all that bad!!!

 

Disgusting pig.

[JayL]

<< Christianity ISN'T submission??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Now I have to pull out all of the stops. I wasn't going to post this, but, really, fuck you. >>

 

 

 

No, I am serious. It is all about believing the message. After that, there is not much to do.

 

That is why I like Joel Osteen. Because he just focuses on leading positive life. But people get shocked when they hear that Joel Osteen is very Biblical.

[JayL]

The idea of paradise filled with nubile virgins is not all that bad!!!

 

Disgusting pig.

 

 

 

 

Ok, sorry for the offense. I am a male and I was being honest. I like to be among many beautiful virgins in bikinis.

 

But the thing is that it may be a total lie. Would you strap yourself to a bomb hoping for bikini babes in paradise?? The cost is too high and the salesman Mohammed is a freaking criminal. The small voice in me says, you are being royally conned, dude.

[Ouroboros]

<< According to some Muslims, Islam is a religion of peace. Are they all lying? Are they just white-washing their religion just like you are about Christianity? >>

 

 

Yes, to an extent they do whitewash. Actually to say Islam means peace is inaccurate. Islam, above all, means SUBMISSION, not peace. Their conception of peace is that peace comes only when the world submits to Allah god of Islam. Until then there is never ending jihad wars.

Christian Militia (Terrorist group) arrested by FBI: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts1361

Planned to kill cops: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20001341-504083.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Preparing to fight against Anti-Christ: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20001329-504083.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody

 

Children denounced as witches by Christians: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/african-children-denounce_n_324943.html

Tortured and killed: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/nov/05/children-accused-of-witchcraft-tortured-killed/

 

The Pope's allowing rape: http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-9090-NY-Atheism--Skepticism-Examiner~y2010m3d26-In-The-Times-Pope-allowed-child-rape-to-continue

 

Christian conception of peace is more readily accessible - just believe the Gospel message of Jesus Christ and you will experience personal peace. It is not submission, but believing. In a way, the price is a lot lower to go with Christian faith in terms of Pascal's wager. And this idea of 'almost free insurance' is a realistic, if a crass picture.

Buddhism is very peaceful too. And quite easy to accept.

 

But why go to any religion at all? When you can find peace within yourself. I have.

 

I still think being a Christian is a rational choice given the uncertainties and difficulties of life.

Sure. You have rationalized it because you like it. But I don't believe. I can't believe. I think it's unreasonable and irrational, from my viewpoint. I can understand it's not so from your point. But from where I stand, I think you're lost in a fiction that only patches up holes, holes you could fix on your own if you had the guts and ability. Perhaps that's the problem, you don't have the ability to fix it yourself, so you have to resort to a fantasy to find the strength to do it. Well, I don't. For all I care, your belief is on the exact same level as believing in Santa Claus or Zeus.

[Ouroboros]

Actually given the 2000 year time difference, it is amazing how relevant the New Testament is.

I politely disagree.

 

However, I find Plato's work to be very relevant, but I don't have to believe in an imaginary miracle-making friend to accept Plato's handiwork.