Why I Am No Longer A Xian

[Vigile]

We have to actually think and respond rationally.

 

Yeah - I keep waiting on those rational thoughts from you guys; when ya gonna start?

 

Romans 1:21–23 (ESV)

21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

Do you ever have a thought of your own? Rational or not? Seriously, your OWN thought, crafted with YOUR own logic and not merely a parroting from the only book you seem to own. Seriously.

 

So, lemme get this straight >> your thoughts are completely your own? Not based on anything but your own myopic personal logic? You're not consciously reading and studying the thoughts of others, gleaning insight from their studies, and working through your own Weltanschauung through a process of careful discovery and drawing logical conclusions?

 

You're not reading re: philosophy. religion, histopy, etc to establish a thoughtful moral and rational basis for your life?

 

You're just watching TV?

 

Fact is - I am reading, thinking, processing, assembling - and when I see a quote that sums up things nicely - well, I post it.

 

Ha ha! Florduh's getting a lecture on intellectualism by a guy who believes in a magic invisible man in the sky.

[rayskidude]

This ray person is like the rabid skunk at the picnic. Here we heathens were having a good time laughing at a great parable and this creep shows up to insult us and spew out yet more bible garble. Is he really stupid enough to think that this approach will win us back somehow? Or, is he just a nasty, abusive person oozing with anger?

 

Are you saying that you are willing to be won back into Christianity? At this point, what keeps you from repenting & turning to Christ Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins and the promise of eternal life?

 

Should I just allow people to wander off into their own fruitless pursuits, should I stand idly by and watch self-destructive philosophies go unchecked?

 

If I did act nonchalantly about what I see here, would I be a loving person?

[Ouroboros]

Oops! I managed to delete Ray's last post about "invisible guy in the sky" post. Sorry Ray. If you want to, you can post it again.

 

I need some coffee...

[oddbird1963]

 

Should I just allow people to wander off into their own fruitless pursuits, should I stand idly by and watch self-destructive philosophies go unchecked?

 

. . .

 

If I did act nonchalantly about what I see here, would I be a loving person?

 

 

 

Yes, please. You should. Just stand idly by and don't talk. Really, if all fundie evangelicals did that, the world would be a much better place.

 

As far as "what you see here," if you actually did more than spit out cliches and bible verses and actually dialoged more consistently (I'm not saying you don't ever genuinely dialog) you would certainly be a more loving person. As it is, you are reacting to straw men of us that you construct on the fly. I don't think you've tried much to experience us as people and actually give a hearing to us. I think as soon as you start reading you are formulating a response from a template of "how do deal with those dirty sinful heathen liberal dark-hearted atheists and pagans."

 

That's the impression I get anyway from having read your posts over time.

[centauri]

At this point, what keeps you from repenting & turning to Christ Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins and the promise of eternal life?

Because it has no basis in reality, it hasn't been established that such a being exists, and the so-called forgiveness of sins contradicts the alleged holy word that this character was supposed to have been spawned from.

 

Should I just allow people to wander off into their own fruitless pursuits, should I stand idly by and watch self-destructive philosophies go unchecked?

In other words, you want your personal whims and speculations to dominate over all other such notions.

You want to dominate and control.

You want your version of reality to be elevated above all others.

 

The phrase "fruitless pursuits" is relative.

Chasing after and worshipping a magical sky-man can easily qualify as a fruitless pursuit.

The same goes for "self-destructive philosophies".

You haven't established that a lack of belief in your version of God is self destructive or that your version of God actually exists.

[florduh]

You want your version of reality to be elevated above all others.

Ah, the arrogance of the Christian. I remember it, don't we all?

 

I thought I was the cat's ass back when I knew I had the ear of the One and Only Creator. I knew all the answers, even if often the answer was "He works in mysterious ways." How can one not be arrogant?

[buffettphan]

 

You see yourself as one of the special chosen ones put on this earth to enlighten and teach us, huh. Look how easy it is for you to arrogantly talk down to the rest of us because you see us as unchosen. Considering the frequency of your pompous posting at a website designed to provide support for ex-christians, you certainly must be enjoying yourself. Yep, typical christian conceitedness.

[Thumbelina]

Thank you, Thumbelina, for putting some effort and thought into your post rather than simply cutting and pasting Scripture. It's a nicely crafted, coherent story. I just disagree with the premise.

 

 

It's basically a few of the themes in the biblical narrative in my own words courtesy of Par's anti parable.

 

What is wrong with scripture? To us believers, it has a wealth of meaning but why are skeptics bothered by it so?

 

Yes I know you disagree but humans are known to change their minds.

 

I used to confuse you with bdp when I first started posting here.

[bornagainathiest]

Pay close attention, boys and girls!

 

This is a classic example of how our would-be 'teacher' Rayskidude uses well-constructed arguments, faultless logic and iron-clad evidence to put forward his case.

I'll now illuminate the finer points of his technique.

 

The story of Rod & Numan >> Paradise Lost

 

rayskidude says >> Well, I guess this is what passes for clever around here.

 

We start with a cheap, sarcastic dig at the intelligence of this forum's members.

 

My name's Numan.

 

Is this a rip-off from Seinfeld?

 

More unsubtle 'humor'.

 

I got a letter from a big company president, Rod, saying I was hired. It was a tough job, requiring me to go against my ownnature at times, but to work hard and I'd succeed.

I was to make a great deal, but here's the catch, I wouldn't know how much until payday. I was suspicious, but Rod said every Numan had a payday, only no Numan knows exactly when.

 

Wow - Numan is an employee that doesn't understand the basics of grace? Or eternal security? How'd he keep his job? Even the little kids in my church know about these things.

 

Mockery and unflattering comparison.

 

I consulted the company manual, and it raised more questions than it answered.

 

And Numan lacks skillz in reading comprehension, too.

 

Ditto.

 

My co-workers didn't seem to notice that the intercom didn't work.

 

Maybe the intercom worked when they operated it. Maybe it was operator-error by Numan, which is consistent with what Numan has already told us about his illustrious career.

 

Mockery again.

 

Then I saw the answer. There was no Rod. The various department bosses may have thought there was, and certainly had the workers convinced, but I couldn't make myself believe that a decent Rod would run a company like this.

 

Hey - the emperor has no clothes! How clever - and Why hasn't anybody thought of this story before?!

 

Ditto.

 

So I quit.

 

Ah yes - the sure sign of a champion with character - blame the other guy! Hip Hip Hooray!

 

...and again.

 

Hey - have you sold any short stories to Reader's Digest?

 

...and more mockery as an unsubtle denoument.

 

Bravo, Ray!

What a stunning tour-de-force of crystal-clear logic, persuasive argument and intellectual prowess!

 

Yes, mockery has it's place in this forum all right, but it can be dished out to you as well as crudely used by you.

 

Now why don't you just grow up, lay off it for a while and try constructing a halfway decent argument for a change?

 

BAA.

 

p.s.

Rayskidude wrote...Hey - get it right! I am the Most Annoying Christian - the Big MAC. Stay current, bro.

 

p.p.s.

BAA's Profile reads...

Well, it looks like I ate the BIG M.A.C.

If he shows up again, that doesn't mean he escaped.

All it means is that I DID eat him (and shat him out dead) but he's just too stubborn (and too stupid) to notice!

 

That current enough for you, bro?

[Ouroboros]

What is wrong with scripture? To us believers, it has a wealth of meaning but why are skeptics bothered by it so?

I know where you want to go with that, but before you do, consider these things:

 

Probably unbelievers are bothered by your "Holy Book" of similar reasons to why you are bothered by the Quran and its teachings how to kill infidels (which includes Christians). But of course, I'm just assuming you're bothered by the Quran.

 

But, perhaps it doesn't bother you that a "Holy Book" is pointing at you and is telling you how wrong and sinful you are (with respect to Allah), and a group of believers follow these teachings and act on them. Maybe you don't care about that at all. Maybe you think that's okay.

 

Or, on the other hand, perhaps you are truly bothered by such "Holy Book"...

 

If you're bothered by it, would it make that "Holy Book" true?

[florduh]

What is wrong with scripture? To us believers, it has a wealth of meaning but why are skeptics bothered by it so?

I said I disagreed with it, not that I was bothered by it.

 

You do understand, don't you, that most of us used to be believers? Your "wealth of meaning" comes in tens of thousands of versions. It means something to you at this time, and it once meant something to me; but I doubt we would have agreed on many of the meanings.

 

Of course now I realize why there are so many interpretations of the Bible. It's a largely unsubstantiated collection of tales told by primarily anonymous authors over a long period of time. A few of the writings were politically selected, copied, translated, etc. You know the weaknesses of the book as well as I.

 

So to me, it's unreliable and often at odds with itself and known history and reality. To you, it's the very Word of God. I probably give it as much credence as you might give the Koran.

[Thumbelina]

What is wrong with scripture? To us believers, it has a wealth of meaning but why are skeptics bothered by it so?

I said I disagreed with it, not that I was bothered by it.

 

You do understand, don't you, that most of us used to be believers? Your "wealth of meaning" comes in tens of thousands of versions. It means something to you at this time, and it once meant something to me; but I doubt we would have agreed on many of the meanings.

 

Of course now I realize why there are so many interpretations of the Bible. It's a largely unsubstantiated collection of tales told by primarily anonymous authors over a long period of time. A few of the writings were politically selected, copied, translated, etc. You know the weaknesses of the book as well as I.

 

So to me, it's unreliable and often at odds with itself and known history and reality. To you, it's the very Word of God. I probably give it as much credence as you might give the Koran.

 

 

 

 

Even if you are not personally bothered by it there are a lot of skeptics out there that are. There is a sort of anti bible, anti Christianity movement out there, why is that? They are going about trying to translate a book whose gospel is hidden from them because they are not open to it. I do understand that some Christians try to legislate their biblical beliefs but even if this was a retaliation against that, shouldn't skeptics refute that particular stance based on the constitution and not by translating a book that is meant for those who hath an ear? Even if they think that the bible teaches people to harm others in the OT, Christ did not teach Christians to do that.

 

 

 

Yes, I understand that most of you were believers but the Christian believes what the bible says, which is there is One Lord, one faith, one baptism, . The bible expounds itself to prevent private interpretations.

 

 

 

There are many interpretations of the bible because the devil likes to muddy the waters. He likes to mix some truth with error which renders it a lie. He wants to be God and he counterfeits the things that God does. Even if the church system that chose which books were to be included to form the entire bible were in apostasy, God still managed to get His message through and the bible is a cohesive whole. Balaam, God's prophet, was a turncoat and Balak, one of Israel's enemies, wanted Balam to curse the Israelites but God would not let him. Each time he wanted to curse them he was made to bless them. God has ALWAYS managed to get His Word to His people. I know you see perceived errors in the bible but the errors are simply copiest errors which did not take away from the biblical GOSPEL/good news.

 

 

 

 

 

With me, I look at different beliefs and I have learned to throw out the bathwater and keep the baby; apparently I was like that even as a child. There are some beliefs and morals that Christianity has in common with other religions as well as with non religious folks. Virtually everybody believes it is evil to kill someone who has done a kindness to them. I happen to find the biblical message true and it speaks to my heart. The God of the bible basically offers what no other god gives, which is grace. Virtually all other religions believe in salvation by works, they have to earn salvation. I love God's commandments.

 

 

 

So this was not your experience: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." ? It has been mine, the more I understand the gospel of the bible the more faith I had in it. I totally agree with what Ray said in this post: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/25632-question-for-christians-about-biblical-inerrancy/page__st__1900__p__686425#entry686425 He said that your decisions to leave was based on faulty information. Not only that, some of you tend to repeat that faulty information albeit you are making fun of it and from a Christian's perspective, this can affect a person's eternal destiny. If you see a bunch of people planning to commit suicide wouldn't you try to talk them out of it? This is how believers see unbelievers or the lost sheep of spiritual Israel as it were.

[florduh]

...a book that is meant for those who hath an ear?

What's wrong with YOUR ears? We are Ex-Christians, so all of us ostensibly had an ear in the believing days. We all heard different things, of course, as do you. I have been where you are, you haven't been here. It is possible to be a True Believer (in one of the many versions of the religion) and learn enough to see through it eventually.

[bornagainathiest]

So this was not your experience: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." ? It has been mine, the more I understand the gospel of the bible the more faith I had in it. I totally agree with what Ray said in this post: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/25632-question-for-christians-about-biblical-inerrancy/page__st__1900__p__686425#entry686425 He said that your decisions to leave was based on faulty information. Not only that, some of you tend to repeat that faulty information albeit you are making fun of it and from a Christian's perspective, this can affect a person's eternal destiny. If you see a bunch of people planning to commit suicide wouldn't you try to talk them out of it? This is how believers see unbelievers or the lost sheep of spiritual Israel as it were.

 

Hello Thumbelina.

 

You totally agree with what Ray says?

 

So when he writes...

"In all honesty - many on this site do claim to know the Bible. But in my conversations, I have come across sheer lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, lousy hermeneutics, shockingly superficial & wooden literalistic interpretations, failure to trace doctrines throughout the Bible, inability to understand context, failure to take into account genre, etc."

...you agree totally with that?

 

You see a sheer lack of knowledge of the Scriptures?

You see lousy hermeneutics?

You see shockingly superficial and wooden literalistic interpretations?

You see a failure to trace doctrines throughout the Bible?

You see an inablitiy to understand context?

You see the failure to take into account genre?

 

Really?

 

Well now, if you'd be so kind, would you please answer just two questions for me?

Thanks in advance.

 

1.

What do you think Ray's motivation is for being here and engaging with us Ex-Christians?

 

2.

What would you like to do in this forum, to address the shortcomings you and Ray see here?

 

Thanks again,

 

BAA.

[Thumbelina]

...a book that is meant for those who hath an ear?

 

 

 

 

 

What's wrong with YOUR ears? We are Ex-Christians, so all of us ostensibly had an ear in the believing days. We all heard different things, of course, as do you.

 

 

I thought you read the parable rewrite and said it was coherent?

 

 

I have been where you are, you haven't been here. It is possible to be a True Believer (in one of the many versions of the religion) and learn enough to see through it eventually.

 

You may have believed but you are not where I am, I plan on having the scriptures make be wise unto salvation-that is, wise unto the attainment of salvation. (2 Tim3:15). So no, I do not plan to be where you are, I have seen secular living, been around it and was secular and frankly, it makes me sick. It is possible to be a True Believer (in one of the many versions of the religion) and learn enough to keep advancing in the faith and be saved eventually.

 

 

PS I am not arguing with you, I tease Par and some others, Par is tolerant and he can do a little teasing himself too

[par4dcourse]

 

There are many interpretations of the bible because the devil likes to muddy the waters. He likes to mix some truth with error which renders it a lie.

 

One book from god for millions of xians to live by and bet their immortal souls on, and he lets some horny bad guy screw with it? Doesn't sound very all-powerful, or either no real bright.

 

 

 

[Thumbelina]

Hi Par, I was wondering where you went. Florduh was holding the fort over here.

 

 

 

There are many interpretations of the bible because the devil likes to muddy the waters. He likes to mix some truth with error which renders it a lie.

 

One book from god for millions of xians to live by and bet their immortal souls on, and he lets some horny bad guy screw with it? Doesn't sound very all-powerful, or either no real bright.

 

 

 

 

 

It's the books. There are many books as you know already.

 

The devil screwed with the people not the books of the Book. The bible interprets itself and if the people rely on the Holy Spirit AND the biblical method of letting scripture interpret itself and if they do not apply private interpretations to the texts then there will be a unifying of the faith (Eph 4:13). God is all powerful AND His nature allows for free will, that is to say, He allows us to worship Him or He allows us not to worship Him. When we worship Him it causes us to gradually be transformed to have a character like His and eventually we will receive eternal life. Not worshiping Him garners the opposite result.

[florduh]

The bible interprets itself and if the people rely on the Holy Spirit AND the biblical method of letting scripture interpret itself and if they do not apply private interpretations to the texts then there will be a unifying of the faith (Eph 4:13).

Thousands of competing sects say exactly the same thing and reference that same verse(s) to prove that they have the correct understanding - not the Pentecostals, not the Amish, not the LDS, not the Lutherans, not the Baptists, not the Mormons, not the Quakers, not the Catholics, "Everyone but ME is reading it wrong, and here's the proof!"

 

Anyway, been there, done that, got over it. Believe as much as you can for as long as you can, and enjoy your special status. Just don't study and think too much or you'll see why the religion opposes thought in favor of blind faith. As long as you believe that every rational thought you might have is the devil misleading you, you will be stuck in the ancient Pagan mythologies adopted and adapted by the authors of the Bible.

[oddbird1963]

 

 

So when he writes...

"In all honesty - many on this site do claim to know the Bible. But in my conversations, I have come across sheer lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, lousy hermeneutics, shockingly superficial & wooden literalistic interpretations, failure to trace doctrines throughout the Bible, inability to understand context, failure to take into account genre, etc."

...you agree totally with that?

 

 

 

HA HA!! Only a fundamentalist Christian would criticize people for not engaging in circular reasoning!

[florduh]

Only a fundamentalist Christian would criticize people for not engaging in circular reasoning!

You may have to explain why using the Bible to prove the Bible is circular reasoning.

[Ouroboros]

 

There are many interpretations of the bible because the devil likes to muddy the waters. He likes to mix some truth with error which renders it a lie.

 

One book from god for millions of xians to live by and bet their immortal souls on, and he lets some horny bad guy screw with it? Doesn't sound very all-powerful, or either no real bright.

And consider that 99.9% of Christians got it wrong. Only a small fraction of Christians got it right, about 1 or 2 people (Ray and Thumb). Hell's gonna be full and active, but Heaven's gonna be empty and boring.

[Ouroboros]

The devil screwed with the people not the books of the Book. The bible interprets itself and if the people rely on the Holy Spirit AND the biblical method of letting scripture interpret itself and if they do not apply private interpretations to the texts then there will be a unifying of the faith (Eph 4:13). God is all powerful AND His nature allows for free will, that is to say, He allows us to worship Him or He allows us not to worship Him. When we worship Him it causes us to gradually be transformed to have a character like His and eventually we will receive eternal life. Not worshiping Him garners the opposite result.

Curious that you first claim that we left because we didn't understand the Bible right, and then you claim that the Bible explains itself. You don't see the contradiction in what you're saying?

[rayskidude]

So to me, it's unreliable and often at odds with itself and known history and reality.

 

You got a coupla favorite examples of these perceived issues?

[rayskidude]

[One book from god for millions of xians to live by and bet their immortal souls on, and he lets some horny bad guy screw with it? Doesn't sound very all-powerful, or either no real bright.

 

Obviously the issue is not with Scripture - all of which is God-breathed. The issue is that twisted people twist the Scriptures for their own gain. In addition, many people do not apply themselves to rigorous study, and thus are easily duped by these twisted teachers. Is this not also true in the secular political world of ideas?

 

Don't forget - God created people as free moral agents.

 

But regarding a true understanding of Scripture, consistent with sound hermeneutics and historical orthodox Christianity >> there are many churches and denominations that are doctrinally sound and proclaim the Gospel faithfully. There are some differences, but not re: core Christian doctrines.

 

Presbyterians (PCA, OPC, some PCUSA), many - but not all - Baptist denominations, Sovereign Grace fellowships, churches in the Acts 29 network, the Harvest Bible Chapel network, Lutheran Church (Missouri & Wisconsin synods), independent Bible churches (though some have unhealthy legalism), Calvary Chapels, Assemblies of God, Southern Methodists, Bible Baptist churches, Mennonites, etc. all preach the Gospel.

 

So as you can see, there is diversity within the Christian community. Though there are some differences re: eschatology, sign gifts, covenants, church practices, etc - the Gospel remains the same. And organizations such as Together for the Gospel (T4G) and Gospel Coalition have been established to focus on and rally around the Gospel >> Salvation from sin by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, as taught in the Bible alone.

 

Any who would disagree with core Christianity would be heretical >> Catholicism, Mormonism (which even they admit is NOT Christian), Jehovah's Witness, Seventh-Day Adventists, many Methodists and Lutherans, those espousing liberation theology, Boston Church of Christ, etc. rely on works-righteousness which cannot save.

 

2 Peter 3:14–17 (ESV)

 

Final Words

14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

 

Acts 17:10–12 (ESV)

 

Paul and Silas in Berea

10 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. 12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.

[par4dcourse]

I can't find a crappy old book of archaic sayings to express my feelings, so I guess I have nothing to say.