Why I Am No Longer A Xian

[florduh]

We are not ignorant, misled, or defiant, just convinced.

+1 for you!

 

Devout Christians can't imagine any valid alternatives to their own narrow beliefs. They do, they must, be convinced they possess the Truth at all times and the only reasons people would turn away from the faith are unanswered prayer, misunderstood Scripture, hypocritical churches, a rebellious nature and a desire to sin. That thinking is akin to the mental contortions required to convince yourself that you have the correct interpretation of the divinely inspired word.

You have already been taught the correct and only answer, so let's make the facts fit the foregone conclusion.

 

I couldn't see how I was doing that myself until I got away from constant exposure to cult thinking.

[Vigile]

They do, they must, be convinced they possess the Truth at all times and the only reasons people would turn away from the faith are unanswered prayer, misunderstood Scripture, hypocritical churches, a rebellious nature and a desire to sin. That thinking is akin to the mental contortions required to convince yourself that you have the correct interpretation of the divinely inspired word.

 

Another way to say this is they are stuck in a paradigm. Outside the paradigm, things look quite different.

[Guest end3]

Thumby has the mistaken belief of so many others that we one day woke up in our comfortable xian existences and said "god didn't give me what I want so I'll be mad and pretend he doesn't exist. "

 

We are ex-christian, Thumbnail. I've read the bible 7 times cover to cover and there are others here who put me to shame in knowledge of all things biblical and historical. Don't dare think you just need to " 'splain it to us" and we'll magically come to a different conclusion than we have painstakingly and painfully reached.

 

We are not ignorant, misled, or defiant, just convinced.

 

 

That's a bonehead statement Par......Damn it, I have read it 7 times and know what it says by concluding. There's pride and arrogance written all over that statement. Truth is, someone damn sure might bring something to the table you haven't seen.....

 

So yes, you are unmistakenly ignorant, misled, and defiant...convinced by your pride.

[florduh]

Truth is, someone damn sure might bring something to the table you haven't seen.....

Not bloody likely at this point.

[AlphaToOmega]

That's a bonehead statement Par......Damn it, I have read it 7 times and know what it says by concluding. There's pride and arrogance written all over that statement. Truth is, someone damn sure might bring something to the table you haven't seen.....

 

So yes, you are unmistakenly ignorant, misled, and defiant...convinced by your pride.

 

 

Let he who is without ignorance cast the first words.

[Guest end3]

That's a bonehead statement Par......Damn it, I have read it 7 times and know what it says by concluding. There's pride and arrogance written all over that statement. Truth is, someone damn sure might bring something to the table you haven't seen.....

 

So yes, you are unmistakenly ignorant, misled, and defiant...convinced by your pride.

 

 

Let he who is without ignorance cast the first words.

 

 

Where did you read that I don't place myself in this category.

[Guest end3]

Truth is, someone damn sure might bring something to the table you haven't seen.....

Not bloody likely at this point.

 

I like you C, but need I say more.

[AlphaToOmega]

That's a bonehead statement Par......Damn it, I have read it 7 times and know what it says by concluding. There's pride and arrogance written all over that statement. Truth is, someone damn sure might bring something to the table you haven't seen.....

 

So yes, you are unmistakenly ignorant, misled, and defiant...convinced by your pride.

 

 

Let he who is without ignorance cast the first words.

 

 

Where did you read that I don't place myself in this category.

 

 

 

 

Where did you read I did?

[florduh]

Truth is, someone damn sure might bring something to the table you haven't seen.....

Really, there is nothing new under the sun. Do you think it's likely that something we haven't seen and considered before will arise now? Remember, this site is primarily composed of former devout believers, apologists, Bible students and scholars, pastors, teachers and missionaries. Once you believe the good news of the gospel and buy into the threat of Hell, the faith is not abandoned lightly or for frivolous reason.

[par4dcourse]

That's a bonehead statement ParSo yes, you are unmistakenly ignorant, misled, and defiant...convinced by your pride.

 

And yet most xians are ignorant of many basic scientific principles, misled into believing something "out there" is running their lives, and difiantly clinging to these notions in the face of overwhelming evidence and common sense.

[oddbird1963]

That's a bonehead statement ParSo yes, you are unmistakenly ignorant, misled, and defiant...convinced by your pride.

 

And yet most xians are ignorant of many basic scientific principles, misled into believing something "out there" is running their lives, and difiantly clinging to these notions in the face of overwhelming evidence and common sense.

 

 

I really wonder what Christians think they can really bring into the game. We've heard their evidence for the resurrection. Fail. We've heard many a christian try to get around the problem of evil. Another fail.

 

Then there is the grasping at straws attempt to make human beings seem more special than other species in the natural order. Yawn.

 

Then there is the whole fulfilled prophecies angle. What a joke!

 

Then there are the six thousand and eleventy billion qualifications on any given subject whenever their inconsistencies are pointed out. Ever hear of "death by a thousand qualifications?" That's when you have to spend so much time engaging in special pleading that your position lacks any credibility whatsoever.

 

Saying "someone damn sure might bring something to the table you haven't seen . . ." is technically true. But so is saying, "they just might present us evidence yet that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around the earth." Someone just may come in with something I haven't heard.

 

But really, flat earth, geocentrism and Christianity. They each have their places in the annals of ancient history. But the probability of either being fished out of the broom closet and dusted off again to be relevant and valid is practically zero.

[AlphaToOmega]

Saying "someone damn sure might bring something to the table you haven't seen . . ." is technically true.

 

Da hOlly Bibel are true cos Sara Palin said so. so belive and vote Republian. Amin.

[agnosticator]

Thumby has the mistaken belief of so many others that we one day woke up in our comfortable xian existences and said "god didn't give me what I want so I'll be mad and pretend he doesn't exist. "

 

We are ex-christian, Thumbnail. I've read the bible 7 times cover to cover and there are others here who put me to shame in knowledge of all things biblical and historical. Don't dare think you just need to " 'splain it to us" and we'll magically come to a different conclusion than we have painstakingly and painfully reached.

 

We are not ignorant, misled, or defiant, just convinced.

 

 

That's a bonehead statement Par......Damn it, I have read it 7 times and know what it says by concluding. There's pride and arrogance written all over that statement. Truth is, someone damn sure might bring something to the table you haven't seen.....

 

So yes, you are unmistakenly ignorant, misled, and defiant...convinced by your pride.

 

I am disappointed with your reply. I thought you were better than this. You dismiss the sincerity of Par's experience as pride, arrogance, ignorance, and defiance? How condescending of you! If he was misled, that opens another can of worms for you to think about.

[bornagainathiest]

Thumby has the mistaken belief of so many others that we one day woke up in our comfortable xian existences and said "god didn't give me what I want so I'll be mad and pretend he doesn't exist. "

 

We are ex-christian, Thumbnail. I've read the bible 7 times cover to cover and there are others here who put me to shame in knowledge of all things biblical and historical. Don't dare think you just need to " 'splain it to us" and we'll magically come to a different conclusion than we have painstakingly and painfully reached.

 

We are not ignorant, misled, or defiant, just convinced.

 

 

That's a bonehead statement Par......Damn it, I have read it 7 times and know what it says by concluding. There's pride and arrogance written all over that statement. Truth is, someone damn sure might bring something to the table you haven't seen.....

 

So yes, you are unmistakenly ignorant, misled, and defiant...convinced by your pride.

 

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Here's a baker's dozen of questions that might help determine just who's proud and arrogant in this forum.

 

1.

Is it proud and arrogant for anyone to conclude that the entire universe was created expressly for their benefit?

 

2.

Is it proud and arrogant for anyone to conclude that the focus of the Creator's attention is centered on an unremarkable planet, orbiting an average star, in an run-of-the-mill galaxy that's part of a not-very-special corner of the cosmos?

 

3.

Is it proud and arrogant for anyone to conclude that of all the dazzling, beautiful and complex life-forms on this planet, God should devote himself to just one of them - us?

 

4.

Is it proud and arrogant for anyone to conclude that this God gave us absolute dominion over all these animals?

 

5.

Is it proud and arrogant for anyone to conclude that each and every animal has no other right to exist than to be under our control?

 

6.

Is it proud and arrogant for anyone to conclude that death did not exist until we, by error, introduced it into the world?

 

7.

Is it proud and arrogant for anyone to conclude that disease, decrepitude, deformity and suffering did not exist until we, by error, introduced these things into the world?

 

8.

Is it proud and arrogant for anyone to conclude that all humans (without exception) are immoral, selfish and evil?

 

9.

Is it proud and arrogant for anyone to conclude that no human has the power within themselves to become more moral, less selfish and less evil?

 

10.

Is it proud and arrogant for anyone to conclude that the love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control shown by any human who isn't a Christian are as 'filthy rags' to God?

 

11.

Is it proud and arrogant for anyone to conclude that the truth of God's existence is blindingly obvious to all, so that anyone who doesn't 'see' it must therefore be in conscious, wilful and deliberate denial of this, making them worthy of eternal suffering?

 

12.

Is it proud and arrogant for anyone to level the accusation of pride and arrogance at others when their whole philosophy is based upon pride and arrogance?

 

13.

So, who's proud and arrogant around here, then?

 

BAA.

[rayskidude]

And yet most xians are ignorant of many basic scientific principles, misled into believing something "out there" is running their lives, and difiantly clinging to these notions in the face of overwhelming evidence and common sense.

 

Hmmm...

 

Do you believe that some quantum fluctuation of unknown cause initiated an instability of unknown content in a point singularity of unknown source (which - of course - contained all the mass/energy of the universe; begging the question of how there could even be any fluctuation or instability is such a dense particle of unknown essence), which in turn caused The Big Bang >> which through 15 billion years of gravitational forces, weak and strong nuclear forces, and electromagnetic phenomena has generated the physical universe we observe today?

 

And that, at some unknown time in the past, these forces generated a planet, whose temperature ranges are suited to metabolic chemical reactions, & with the appropriate gravitational pull, & with a magnetic field sufficient to protect from cosmic radiation, and with a moon positioned & sized perfectly to prevent undue planetary wobbling while it revolves around a star... And that someway, somehow, some kind of self-replicating collocation of macro-molecules globbed together and became LIFE! (A little Gene Wilder - Young Dr Frankenstein music would be good here).

 

And that through the directionless, mindless, & purposeless physical laws acting upon these chance combinations of chemicals, this LIFE then began in some unknown sequence conducted by unknown processes to manufacture highly specialized proteins, nucleic acids, tri-glycerides, whose purposes (whoa, where'd purpose come from? Self-preservation?) were to replicate genetic information, detect & transport metabolites for energy, then transport the subsequent waste products, then undergo mitosis (requiring micro-filaments) etc. etc etc...

 

THEN, we somehow move to from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cellular life forms, where chance/random genetic mutations again generate beneficial genotypes (over the objections of the DNA repair mechanisms that were developed to maintain genetic integrity) thus resulting in stronger phenotypes>> whose powers of self-preservation and self-replication are slightly superior to their ancestors and siblings >> all moving toward the advancing the complexity and diversity of LIFE! Generating all the flora and fauna we see today (plus all those myriads of species which have already become extinct due to evolution)

 

Have you ever seen anything like this? Have you seen any of these processes? Does this make sense? Where's the overwhelming evidence?

 

In all the decades that scientists have exposed fruit flies to a plethora of mutagenic agents - have they ever generated anything but a fruit fly? Have they ever even made a better fruit fly?

 

This is your sensible worldview?

 

Talk about fairy tale.

[rayskidude]

Scripture by itself has no more authority over us than you do, which is to say, none at all.

We do not accept that it is God's truth - that is for you to prove via persuasive argument.

Unsupported assertions and appeals to authority are not acceptable forms of argument.

 

When you come up with the goods, than we might listen to what you say... not before.

 

BAA.[/color]

 

The fact of God's existence is axiomatic - as is the belief that God does not exist. Both are faith statements. However, to live as though God does not exist is the equivalent of living as though gravity doesn't exist - it will result in your demise.

 

We do not know what gravity is, how it 'travels' (it is in gravitons?, gravity waves?, it is mediated through empty space or an aether?) - nor what is the content of the attraction, i.e., why should one mass attract another mass? Yet we observe gravity working daily in everyday experiences.

 

God's existence is more than evident in the cosmological, teleological, anthropological, moral, and religious proofs for God's existence. When a person rejects such evidence, they will reach the only logical conclusion that rejecting truth can lead to - their own demise.

 

Are you unaware of the philosophical arguments for the existence of God? If you are aware, have you chosen to ignore them? If you have rejected the General, Natural revelation of God to Man- then what is your recourse?

 

So the first question is: do you believe in a God that created the universe, that created man in His own image & likeness, that we would know Him personally? Do you believe in a God that desires to communicate with His Creation, especially the human race? That God's desire is that we would all live in joy & harmony & love & well-being? That God, being Tri-une in nature, desires to share in His own inter-personal perichoresis with others, and so creates a universe which can evidence that type of relationship for others?

 

If you do not believe in that God - then you would not believe that God would record His Special, Specific revelation in the Bible.

 

Where do we start?

[agnosticator]

Have you ever seen anything like this? Have you seen any of these processes? Does this make sense? Where's the overwhelming evidence?

 

This is your sensible worldview?

 

Talk about fairy tale.

 

What about Homo erectus, Homo rodesiensis and Homo neanderthalensis? Did they exist? Are physical anthropology, primatology, archaeology, linguistics and genetics all wrong? How is it all a fairy tale?

 

Do you have any evidence as to how life came to be what it is today? Do you know of any archeological evidence for Adam and Eve being the first humans or what the Ark contained? What is the process that all life came from and flourished?

[agnosticator]

The fact of God's existence is axiomatic - as is the belief that God does not exist. Both are faith statements......God's existence is more than evident in the cosmological, teleological, anthropological, moral, and religious proofs for God's existence.

 

God's existence and nature can't be proven or disproven, hence faith. Both of your statements contradict each other due to a lack of evidence.

 

 

However, to live as though God does not exist is the equivalent of living as though gravity doesn't exist - it will result in your demise.

 

We do not know what gravity is, how it 'travels' (it is in gravitons?, gravity waves?, it is mediated through empty space or an aether?) - nor what is the content of the attraction, i.e., why should one mass attract another mass? Yet we observe gravity working daily in everyday experiences.

 

There's evidence for gravity existing. A comparison isn't proof that the biblegod exists. Jump off a building and you'll have conclusive proof and evidence that gravity killed you, not the biblegod.

[rayskidude]

Anyway, the healing wasn't the issue to why I lost my faith. It was the emotional healing in me, in my wife, in my kids, that were lacking. God doesn't answer those prayers either. You can't ask God for comfort or strengthening of you faith. Why? Because he won't do that either. He doesn't heal. He doesn't do shit. Why? Because he doesn't exist. Very simple answer. Maybe you will understand that one day too.

 

Is it OK if I ask how your son is doing?

[rayskidude]

Have you ever seen anything like this? Have you seen any of these processes? Does this make sense? Where's the overwhelming evidence?

 

This is your sensible worldview?

 

Talk about fairy tale.

 

What about Homo erectus, Homo rodesiensis and Homo neanderthalensis? Did they exist? Are physical anthropology, primatology, archaeology, linguistics and genetics all wrong? How is it all a fairy tale?

 

Do you have any evidence as to how life came to be what it is today? Do you know of any archeological evidence for Adam and Eve being the first humans or what the Ark contained? What is the process that all life came from and flourished?

 

Do you remember when several years ago, the news reports saying that scientists had determined, on the basis of female mitochondrial DNA, that the human race were all descended from a single woman they called "Eve" - whom they said lived in Ethiopia? They also said she existed about 200,00 years ago. Scientists also said there was evidence of a single male progenitor of the human race, but they said they could only trace him back to about 120,000 years ago. What do you think about these 'findings?'

 

What genetic evidence has been amassed to prove evolution? Does the phenomena of genetic mutation prove evolution? Then trot out the species we have seen evolve. Trot out the beneficial mutations that we can prove led to improved viability and increased progeny, eventually leading to a new species. I'm all ears.

 

I suggest you do more research in human evolution, especially regarding how the mental & physical abilities for speech could have even evolved. There lots of fairy tales and rank speculation.

 

God created male & female, fully functional, with the capability mental & physical for speech. Nothing else makes sense.

[agnosticator]

Do you remember when several years ago, the news reports saying that scientists had determined, on the basis of female mitochondrial DNA, that the human race were all descended from a single woman they called "Eve" - SNIP-

God created male & female, fully functional, with the capability mental & physical for speech. Nothing else makes sense.

 

Why do you accept what was said about "Eve" as the first Homo sapiens female, yet ignore Neanderthals and all the rest of Homo sapiens' (i.e.,humans) ancestors that were separate species?

[Ouroboros]

Is it OK if I ask how your son is doing?

That's okay. Like I told Thumbelina, I prefer when people are honest about caring and not just selling me their "solution." I even gave her permission to pray. I don't mind that, even though I strongly doubt it will change anything.

 

He's doing okay at the moment, but we have had several close calls the last couple of days. (No need to go into medical details.) He's on strong antibiotics at the moment, and his appointment with the specialist is in two weeks. It's a major surgery, and it probably will happen the same week as his appointment.

[Antlerman]

A-man said:

Jesus says, “You are the light of the world."

 

 

I note the word YOU. YOU are the light. That is something inside us.

 

 

Jesus says, "let your light shine before others"

 

 

 

 

 

But the bible says: Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. http://bible.cc/john/8-12.htm and there's the cross references which coincides with the Christian doctrine that says for without me [Jesus] ye can do nothing. http://bible.cc/john/15-5.htm ; Christ is our righteousness; if we depend on Him and His teachings we will gradually come to be like Him.

 

 

Humans WANT to think that we aren't evil but God says we are and people are not comfortable with that. There would not have been a multiplicity of religions or Christian sects if people will let the bible explain what it means by going back and forth throughout the bible and let the HS teach us what God wants to impress upon us AND follow what it says. Instead some use private interpretations. I hope you understand what I mean now?

 

A-man and others seem to think we don't need God or God is within us as evidenced here: "Some of us have redefined God as something internal to ourselves and some of us have just dropped the concept altogether." #22) http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/47898-pressing-on/page__st__20__p__687993#entry687993

and in A-man's post as well as in numerous posts on the web. A-man used scripture to prove his private interpretation but his intepretation is not biblical; the bible explains what IT means.

I'm bewildered and flattered you would read what I say, but not surprised it eludes you.

 

 

You have no idea of anything you talk, and talk about. You are doing nothing but trying to reason truth with your head, and quite miserably at that. I would try to teach you, but you believe you already know. Your heart screams fear and ignorance.

[par4dcourse]

stupid bs..snipped..

 

Of course not. A giant sky-daddy belched his lunch and it all sprang into being in 6days less than 10 k years ago. That's the believeable story.

[par4dcourse]

What genetic evidence has been amassed to prove evolution? Does the phenomena of genetic mutation prove evolution? Then trot out the species we have seen evolve. Trot out the beneficial mutations that we can prove led to improved viability and increased progeny, eventually leading to a new species. I'm all ears.

 

 

Not my job to teach you basic science that a 3rd grader understands. Skip a lot of classes to pray or something?