The Apostles and Eternal Hell Teachings

[Guest SerenityNow]

Seeing that Eternal Torture is such a horrible thing, I would think it of the utmost importance to the men who walked with Jesus, to make sure and warn people of this impending eternal punishing. Does anyone else find it rather odd that out of 27 books in the NT that only 7 books ever even mention the word (KJV)? Only one tiny teaching from the author who wrote 2 Peter (2 Peter 2:4). Only one tiny mention of the word from James (James 3:6). 2 minor mentions in Acts (2:27 and 2:31) and the rest in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Revelations. Pardon me, Jude mentions "eternal fire" once.

 

Also, I find that the main drive behind the NT, the man who gets credited for writing over HALF of the NT, the self-proclaimed Apostle to Christ...drum roll please...PAUL! There is not one word about eternal hell, not even a mere hint of it, not even a tiny mention. Was he not, according to Christians the apostle to the gentiles? All those letters about straigtening up and not one warning, not a threat of eternal fire. However, for as much as Paul speaks of heaven the one thing he does mention is the following: "The wages of sin is death."

 

Did Jesus forget to tell Paul this? Did Jesus not tell his apostles to PLEASE make sure people understand. We need to keep in mind that people back then didn't have a bible like we do now and many were illiterate. Pauls epistles were BEFORE the gospels. Revelations is after many people, that Paul would have taught were dead and gone, also the ones that Peter and James taught. Makes absolutely ZERO sense.

[Amanda]

Also, I find that the main drive behind the NT, the man who gets credited for writing over HALF of the NT, the self-proclaimed Apostle to Christ...drum roll please...PAUL!  There is not one word about eternal hell, not even a mere hint of it, not even a tiny mention.  Was he not, according to Christians the apostle to the gentiles?  All those letters about straigtening up and not one warning, not a threat of eternal fire.  However, for as much as Paul speaks of heaven the one thing he does mention is the following:  "The wages of sin is death."

 

Did Jesus forget to tell Paul this?  Did Jesus not tell his apostles to PLEASE make sure people understand.  We need to keep in mind that people back then didn't have a bible like we do now and many were illiterate.  Pauls epistles were BEFORE the gospels. Revelations is after many people, that Paul would have taught were dead and gone, also the ones that Peter and James taught.  Makes absolutely ZERO sense.

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Hi SerenityNow!

 

IMHO, the war between heaven and hell is within each of us. Guilt and condemnation are paths to hell. Obedience to laws were important to our less mature sense of mutual respect for all... yet during the time of Jesus, I believe there is a new assertion of reason to these laws.

 

To be carnally minded is death, and to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Therefore, the wages of sin is death. This is spiritually speaking, I think.

 

It seems to me the law created comdemnation, guilt, and death to our spirit. Laws were for integrity, respecting each other, and to have a better framework to live life. It appears some people went overboard with this, and became self elitist in their very pious self righteous esteem in their superior adherence to the law. Not good.

 

My personal interpretation is that 'grace' became the main thrust of Paul. Sure, the law is important... yet it is not the literal meaning that is important, but the purpose and meaning behind the written law. Instead of eternal guilt and condemnation for not adhering to the law... grace freed us from this consequence of the law.

 

I think grace is the understanding that EVERYONE is doing the best they know how, in the situation they are in, with the coping skills that are available to them at that moment. How can we expect any more than someone's best... even our own? (forgive them for they know not what they do) We still have to be accountable and responsible for our actions... yet we and others can be forgiven with this liberating understanding. Therefore, the existence of the concept of eternal hell vanishes. As Paul said, where there is sin, grace abounds more. A response to that to Paul was to lets sin more so there would be more grace! Paul answered, heavens NO... it doesn't work like that!

 

Additionally, from what I've gathered in what limited research I have done in Revelation is that it is NOT going to be a bad/horrific time. Revelation 1:1 says that this book is about the revealing of Jesus Christ written in signs and symbols to my brother John. It would therefore seem to be the revealing of love, mercy, and compassion written in signs and symbols. I think it could be a 'good' thing.

[Amanda]

 

Trying to draw out those who do believe in eternal torture, because really, their beliefs hold no water.

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Serenity Now, yea... we agree on something!!!

[nightflight]

Christians love their hell. Funny how one of the terms in the N.T., gehenna, is used to denote our modern idea of eternal torment. But gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, and probably symbolized in Jesus's words corruption and destruction. Only sick, sadistic minds would take from that everlasting life in torment. Funny thing about Gehenna.......according to the bible, there was a period where people would sacrifice their children to the god Molech at Gehenna. They would watch as their children were burned alive on the statue of Molech. Christians would say that although it was wrong, it is ok because the kids went to heaven anyway.

[Cynetix]

Christians love their hell.  Funny how one of the terms in the N.T., gehenna, is used to denote our modern idea of eternal torment.  But gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, and probably symbolized in Jesus's words corruption and destruction.  Only sick, sadistic minds would take from that everlasting life in torment.  Funny thing about Gehenna.......according to the bible, there was a period where people would sacrifice their children to the god Molech at Gehenna.  They would watch as their children were burned alive on the statue of Molech.  Christians would say that although it was wrong, it is ok because the kids went to heaven anyway.

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Along those same lines, do some research on Molech/Moloch and the Bohemian Gardens. What you will find may (or may not) shock and surprise you. We have our leaders (such as dubya, his daddy and other historically prominent members) to this very day reenacting those rites. Hypocritical asshole is running our country, telling us that atheists shouldn't be considered as Americans, since we don't proclaim to be Xtians, yet he participates in a druidistic ritual reenactment of the sacrifices to Molech. Can you say hypocrite boys and girls? Of course you can. Last time I checked, that would fall under worshipping false gods.

 

Get me a cross, strap W to it and I'll gladly drive the first nail. On second thought, nevermind. Last thing I need to do is make that bastard a martyr. Oh well. Like my mom says, "It's the thought that counts."

 

Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread.

[Amanda]

Christians love their hell.  Funny how one of the terms in the N.T., gehenna, is used to denote our modern idea of eternal torment.  But gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, and probably symbolized in Jesus's words corruption and destruction.  Only sick, sadistic minds would take from that everlasting life in torment.

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Hi Nightflight! I think it was a metaphor for a state of mind, repercussions from our actions, that purifies... burns away the 'garbage' we have in our own lives. NOT that some would go there and some don't... but that we ALL go there at some points in our lives. Certainly no one stays forever! It may SEEM like it sometimes.

 

  Funny thing about Gehenna.......according to the bible, there was a period where people would sacrifice their children to the god Molech at Gehenna.  They would watch as their children were burned alive on the statue of Molech.  Christians would say that although it was wrong, it is ok because the kids went to heaven anyway.

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[Amanda]

Nightflight, interesting that some Christians hve taken that outlook...

 

Researching that, since I was unaware of it till you brought it to my attention, I find that the OT was adamantly against this practice according to these verses to follow:

 

Le 18:21

And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

 

Le 20:2

Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

 

Le 20:3

And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.

[Outsider2]

A couple of weeks ago, the thought about how much Hell is (not) mentioned in the NT came to mind. I know Fundies like to say that Jesus talked about Hell more than anyone, but besides Lazarthus (sp?) and the richman his references to Hell were vague. You would think the Bible would be like a huge flashing alarm warning people of their eternal fate of torture.

 

I think Paul did not write much about Hell because it could have been assumed among the believers. His epistles were manily letters to the churches on how they should behave. The belief of Hell could have been taught, but not written down.

[Outsider2]

Good point. Since we all know how Hell can be a strong motivator, what better way to stop incest by threatening the believers in Cronith with hellfire. I guess we would have to find out if the culture back then had a common belief about a place of eternal torture after death. I think the fact that Jesus talks about Gehenna and Paul and the NT are vague about Hell, it is safe to say that the jury was still out on the belief of Hell.

[Croesus]

A couple of weeks ago, the thought about how much Hell is (not) mentioned in the NT came to mind.  I know Fundies like to say that Jesus talked about Hell more than anyone, but besides Lazarthus (sp?) and the richman his references to Hell were vague.  You would think the Bible would be like a huge flashing alarm warning people of their eternal fate of torture.

 

I think Paul did not write much about Hell because it could have been assumed among the believers.  His epistles were manily letters to the churches on how they should behave.  The belief of Hell could have been taught, but not written down.

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You are absolutely Correct Outsider2, Paul’s epistle where written to the Church for instruction and correction in righteousness 1tim3:16, they not only gave the format for how to do church business, Deacon and pastor qualification, instruction for women etc.

[nightflight]

You are absolutely Correct Outsider2, Paul’s epistle where written to the Church for instruction and correction in righteousness 1tim3:16, they not only gave the format for how to do church business, Deacon and pastor qualification, instruction for women etc.

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How many times is hell mentioned in Acts?

 

You see what I mean? When push comes to shove, the christian will tenaciously defend hell. They like it.

[Outsider2]

You are absolutely Correct Outsider2, Paul’s epistle where written to the Church for instruction and correction in righteousness 1tim3:16, they not only gave the format for how to do church business, Deacon and pastor qualification, instruction for women etc.

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However, there is still silence about Hell. Even today when a pastor is correcting his flock he reminds them about Hell. It may be hard for you to see, but Christian Hell is not something that is universally understood..

[SkepticOfBible]

It seems to me the law created comdemnation, guilt, and death to our spirit. Laws were for integrity, respecting each other, and to have a better framework to live life. It appears some people went overboard with this, and became self elitist in their very pious self righteous esteem in their superior adherence to the law. Not good.

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The reason why they adhering to the law because the OT is pretty series on keeping the law. Even jesus himself was pretty series of keeping the law

 

Deut 6:2,5,24-25

That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

 

Many of God's laws have nothing to do with loving or being nice to others.

For example, God's food laws are outlined in Lev 11.

Foods such as shellfish and pork are considered abomination by God and are not to be eaten. If a person wants to serve God and be holy, they will obey the food laws.

Lev 11:45

For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

 

Eccl 12:13

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

Eccl 12:13

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep a couple of his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Keeping a couple of his commandments is the same thing as keeping all of them.

 

I can't blame the Jews for not following the law.

 

In fact in the old testament every man was supposed to have died for his own sins.(Can't remember the exact verse)

[Amanda]

The reason why they adhering to the law because the OT is pretty series on keeping the law. Even jesus himself was pretty series of keeping the law

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Hello Pritish!

 

I agree! The need for laws and order are very important... as the OT and Jesus both emphasized. As I've said in probably another forum on this site is... the literal interpretation (letter) of the law was killing everyone, because it went too far! What is really important, from Jesus's teachings, is the meaning and purpose of these laws. Sure it says 'don't work on the sabbath' yet that does not mean you can't heal someone or get your oxen out of the ditch! Let's have reason to the purpose and meaning. Jesus refocused them on the aspect that the sabbath was made for man, NOT man for the sabbath. Jesus asserted 'reasoning' to these laws, so we can have a more abundant life! It is NOT the law that is important, but the intentions behind these laws.

Many of God's laws have nothing to do with loving or being nice to others.

For example, God's food laws are outlined in Lev 11.

Foods such as shellfish and pork are considered abomination by God and are not to be eaten. If a person wants to serve God and be holy, they will obey the food laws.

Lev 11:45

For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

 

Eccl 12:13

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

Eccl 12:13

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep a couple of his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Keeping a couple of his commandments is the same thing as keeping all of them.

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Eating shellfish and pork were known to have detrimental reprecussions. If the pork was not well cooked, it could pass on a parasite that could keep one ill the rest of their lives. Also, shellfish has lots of cholesteral, I think. Perhaps there was a correlation drawn between the food and outcomes, so it was a matter of respecting your own body.

 

As I understand it, all these ten commandments are based on one law, and perhaps we can say two... as they all say the same thing. One is to love God with all your heart and soul, and two is to love your neighbor as yourself and btw, your neighbor is ANYONE.

 

I can't blame the Jews for not following the law.

 

In fact in the old testament every man was supposed to have died for his own sins.(Can't remember the exact verse)

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I don't blame them either!!! People did have a right to be happy, don't you think? Not at the cost of others, but if some degree of these laws just don't make sense.... why let it limit ones' choices?

 

And Pritish, I think that the death man was receiving from his sins was a spiritual death. Also, I think the repercussions of most of their sins did not help emotional health for them selves and many cases to others... and poor emotional health can be a precursor to other physical ailments. I've heard that even many doctors admit that up to 97% of all illnesses are psychosomatic. So maybe sin can contribute to physical death also.

[Asimov]

Any Being whos "laws" hinge on people having to love other people is an asshole.

[Amanda]

Any Being whos "laws" hinge on people having to love other people is an asshole.

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Asimov, how about just respecting them?

[Vixentrox]

Too bad that merely respecting the Xtian god isn't enough.

[dario]

In response to the topic, I would have to say that first, I have no idea why the apostles did not teach about hell more often. Or at least have it written down in one of their books of the bible. Maybe they did teach it, but decided not to put it in one of their letters like someone had mentioned already on the thread. But for whatever the reasoning, I believe that what they did include was the right thing to do. In my opinion, I believe that trying to scare someone into becoming a believer by preaching about hell is the wrong thing to do. And from my own research, I believe thats what Paul thought also. Scaring people with the thought of hell, doesn't really make them want to get into a relationship with God, the ultimate judge. Paul and the other apostles, in my mind, were focusing on the key points of having a right relationship with God. That was their goal, not to preach on hell, but to preach on how to live a spiritual life.

 

Brian Dario

[dario]

No, Serenity I do not have children, but I could probably substitute my wife in the place of children. You're right, I could not imagine punishing my wife for not following Christ, or whatever reason you give. But that is the just punishment. We don't know what hell is really going to be like. Sure we have some insight, but we don't know the severity of the punishment. I'm not trying to make it look like hell is going to be this OK place for people who were good, but didn't follow Christ. People who reject Christ, and live in their sin, will not see heaven, in my opinion. Does this sound like a good thing? Of course not, but that is what God apparently does. God created life, he controls life. Even if it doesn't sound fair, he has the right to do with it whatever he wants. That is what I believe in. If my wife somehow wanders from the path, I am going to try my very hardest to try and steer her in the right direction. If she still persists, then that is her decision. Yes, it will hurt deeply, but there is nothing that I can do. She chose her path.

 

I would like to continue this discussion further, but I must go to bed with my wife now. I hope tomorrow the discussion will still be going on. Until then, have a good night.

 

Brian Dario

[Ouroboros]

Dario, I hope your wife can steer you in the right direction instead.

[JeffXL]

Hell may not have been mentioned so often (utterly guessing here, BTW) because it was a recent invention. The Pentateuch hardly cares about an afterlife at all. Eventually "Sheol" was made up, but that was where *everyone* went, and appears to be modelled on the Hellenistic Hades.

 

Eternal punishment was drawn from the world of make-believe much later.

[nightflight]

God created life, he controls life. Even if it doesn't sound fair, he has the right to do with it whatever he wants.

 

Such a slavish mindset!

[dario]

Such a slavish mindset!

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I guess it could be consider slavish if thats the way you think of it. God created us, so that means he can do what he wants with us. Does that mean he totally controls us? No, we make poor decisions everyday, and in most of those situations God does not intercede to make things all better. Does God intercede in ones life? In my life he has, so from my experience I'm assuming he intercedes in others.

[Skankboy]

So Dario, is child abuse ok because you created the child? You made it, sure it can choose to not obey, but you made it so you can do want.

 

Not a fair comparison? Why? Because (supposedly) God made everything? That's just a matter of magnitude. If God can't be held to the same moral standards that we are expected to, how can any decision he makes truly be just? It's the same as saying "might makes right".

[JeffXL]

Even if it doesn't sound fair, he has the right to do with it whatever he wants.

Brian Dario

 

Which means your god could cast you and all believers into Hell if he wanted. So really there's no reason to waste my life on believing, is there?

 

No matter. Hell is just another pathetic fiction.