The Apostles and Eternal Hell Teachings

[Mythra]

ExChristian_net_Forums___Encouraging_Ex_Christians.htm

 

A christian that thinks the bible doesn't place women on a lower status than men:lmao:

[Vixentrox]

ExChristian_net_Forums___Encouraging_Ex_Christians.htm

 

A christian that thinks the bible doesn't place women on a lower status than men:lmao:   

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Just shows what we all know. Christians don't fucking read thier Bibles. Makes you wonder why Martin Luther ever bothered.....

[Amanda]

The reason why they were following the letter of the law because it was Jesus(assuming you believe Jesus is god) who gave them the rule to not to do any work on the Sabbath and told them to put the person to death if this rule was broken

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Hello Pritish!

 

This is why it is said that the 'letter of the law kills.' Jesus came so that we may have life and have it more abundantly. IMO, Jesus is an expression of one aspect of God, the consciousness of God here on earth. Jesus brought love, compassion, and reason. Man was NOT made for the sabbath, the sabbath was made for man. Think about that...

 

I've used this example a couple of times already. I live in Florida where it gets very HOT. It is against the law to leave your dog in the car while you go into the store, because it is abuse to your dog to leave it in such grueling heat. As the weather gets cooler, 40 degrees, I take my dog with me to the store and leave him in the car, because I KNOW he'd rather go and sit in the car than at home. Did I break the law? Yes. Did I go against the purpose and intention of the law? No. I've never even so much as received a reprimand! Does this understanding give me a wider variety of acceptable choices to live my life?

 

Strict adherence to the letter of the law kills, and limits one's choices to maneuver through the world. Jesus asserts that reason and understanding of the intentions of these laws are what is important. Should one be killed for picking up sticks on the Sabbath? Jesus brought reason, and it seems to me... this is a good thing.

[Eponymic]

Strict adherence to the letter of the law kills, and limits one's choices to maneuver through the world. Jesus asserts that reason and understanding of the intentions of these laws are what is important. Should one be killed for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?    Jesus brought reason, and it seems to me... this is a good thing.

 

Great, so Biblical law, under this logic is fallible and can be used according to your own personal choice. I could go on, but I'm sure you'll find some way to pick & choose ways to justify how you're picking your favorite pieces of the Bible and making a happy little mural out of them.

[SkepticOfBible]

This was not the reason that Jesus was executed.  The verses in Deut. only prove that Jesus was not a false prophet. 

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You are correct to say that Jesus was excecuted on the grounds blasmemy

Blasphemy is lack of reverence for God and his word. Claiming to be God would be blasphemy because God is not a man(Num 23:19). There is no evidence in the OT that God is Trinity as christian claim him to be nor is that word mentioned anywhere in the bible.

 

Isa 45:21-22

…and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa 45:5-6

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

 

Isa 46:9

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Whether or not Jesus actually claimed to be God can be argued either way. Claiming to be an agent of God is subject to inspection, and although Jesus made claims about his own importance, he never proved any of them.

 

Isa 43:10-11

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

 

There are no co-equal to God trinity "persons" that are included in God's makeup.

 

He was also proved to be a false teacher according to the OT, which is further grounds for punishment.

 

Deut 18:20(NIV)

But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded

him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put

to death."

At times Jesus said he said you were supposed to follow the law at other times he enticed people to ignore parts of God's word. This was a serious offense accoding to the OT.

 

All of the things he did and the miracles he performed were done in the Lord's name.

 

This is another empty claim. Deut 13 and 18 expose this assertion as bogus.

Valid teachers don't teach people that parts of the law can be ignored, nor do they introduce blood drinking rituals for salvation. Miracles do not prove anything(Deat 13-1-5)

 

Jesus claimed to be the expected messiah, yet he didn't accomplish even the basic job which the king messiah supposed to do. Nor did he sit on the throne of David. Off course Christians would say that this would be done in the second coming. But nowhere in the OT does is says the the Messiah would need two trips to complete the task, on the contrary the Messiah would complete the job during his lifetime

 

 

This is where our beliefs are different. You say Jesus is proved to be a

false prophet because he claimed to be God.

 

Jesus was a false teacher and false prophet, and claiming to be God would

be the icing on the cake.

Valid teachers don't modify the law and they don't make false prophecy as

Jesus did

 

Obviously you know that I believe he was God, so this was not blashpeme in my opinion. And once again, I don't just believe all of this because the bible says so. I have seen proof, or at least enough proof, to convince me

that what the bible says is truth.

 

Proof can be anything one wants it to be. Opinions are just opinions. This person can believe whatever works for them.

 

I believe in the gospel accounts and Paul's epistles. I try not to twist

verses to make them fit into my thinking. I read the verses as they were

meant, unless, like revelation, there are a lot of underlying ideas that can

be interpreted in many ways. But, like christians, there are many verses

that a lot of x-christians twist to fit their point. But I guess

x-christians will always do this. Whatever makes "them" right, in their own

mind.

 

This is quite typical of christians and also quite empty. You believe what

suits you and do exactly what they accuse x-christians of doing. It's nothing more than a stream of blank assertions.

 

Pritish

[SkepticOfBible]

This is why it is said that the 'letter of the law kills.' Jesus came so that we may have life and have it more abundantly. IMO, Jesus is an expression of one aspect of God, the consciousness of God here on earth. Jesus brought love, compassion, and reason. Man was NOT made for the sabbath, the sabbath was made for man. Think about that...

 

I've used this example a couple of times already. I live in Florida where it gets very HOT. It is against the law to leave your dog in the car while you go into the store, because it is abuse to your dog to leave it in such grueling heat. As the weather gets cooler, 40 degrees, I take my dog with me to the store and leave him in the car, because I KNOW he'd rather go and sit in the car than at home. Did I break the law? Yes. Did I go against the purpose and intention of the law? No. I've never even so much as received a reprimand! Does this understanding give me a wider variety of acceptable choices to live my life?

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Well, I understand the empathy of part of the dog. But in case you are caught you cannot argue with the cop I suppose, you'll have to take whatever punishment that is written in the law.

 

Strict adherence to the letter of the law kills, and limits one's choices to maneuver through the world.

 

It only kills if you broke the rules. It is the God of OT that came with the law, and he only emphased on the strict adherance of the law. Perhaps he should have have exceptions to the law as our modern laws give out, but he didn't.

 

Jesus asserts that reason and understanding of the intentions of these laws are what is important.

 

He also said that every jot and letter of the law should be followed.

 

Should one be killed for picking up sticks on the Sabbath? 

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Well according to the OT, YES. Under the theocractic rule of Jews this punish would definately would have been carried out. You shouldn't have any objection to that. It wouldn't have been considered a sin because people would be following law.

 

Pritish

[Amanda]

Well, I understand the empathy of part of the dog. But in case you are caught you cannot argue with the cop I suppose, you'll have to take whatever punishment that is written in the law.

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Pritish, actually, I could be given a citation or such... yet, I could take it to court and fight it... and there are provisions to the law to allow for the intention of its purpose. If I prove to a jury that I did NOT break the intent or purpose of the law, I go free. Of course, one must be careful where there is a fine line.

It only kills if you broke the rules. 

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And EVERYBODY broke these rules.

Well according to the OT, YES.

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And perhaps that is why we needed the NT.

[Mythra]

Strict adherence to the letter of the law kills, and limits one's choices to maneuver through the world. Jesus asserts that reason and understanding of the intentions of these laws are what is important. Should one be killed for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?    Jesus brought reason, and it seems to me... this is a good thing.

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Amanda: your reasoning seems to suggest that it is man's poor interpretation of God's laws that cause the problem and lead to these assinine injustices. A proper reading of the text leads to another conclusion:

 

Numbers 15:32

 

"While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die". The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses."

 

As you can see, this murder came at the orders of God, not because his law was perverted in some way.

 

If you want to completely reject the Old Testament, then that's cool. You're halfway to finding enlightenment.

[Mythra]

God became all lovey-dovey once we got to the New Testament, I suppose.

 

Ananias and Saphira might disagree. Of course, they definitely committed a capital offense. Sold their property, then only gave half to the church, saying it was the full amount.

 

I can see God's reasoning there. I'd of killed the bastards too.

[Amanda]

Amanda:  your reasoning seems to suggest that it is man's poor interpretation of God's laws that cause the problem and lead to these assinine injustices.  A proper reading of the text leads to another conclusion:

 

Numbers 15:32

 

"While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day.  Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him.  Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die".  The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp."  So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses."

 

As you can see, this murder came at the orders of God, not because his law was perverted in some way.

 

If you want to completely reject the Old Testament, then that's cool.  You're halfway to finding enlightenment.

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Hello Mythra! I'm glad to see you back! (I think )

 

Regarding this man gathering sticks, it seems here is the setting of the story....

 

Apparently, God had said if one sins in ignorance... sacrifice an animal and make atonements for what is done and all is forgiven. Yet, if one sins because they put themselves in an exhalted position and defiantly sin because they think they are above the law... then they must be put to death, as did the man who gathered these sticks.

 

Numbers15

28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. 30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously *, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger *, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 31

Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

 

Mythra, I do think that this seems to be a harsh punishment... yet their times were different than what has evolved to today's standards. IMO, it is a wonderful thing that the NT came with a new dispensation. Does this qualify me for some degree of enlightenment?

[Mythra]

So God changes with the times, then? He adapts his rules and edicts according to the people's culture?

 

Let's face it. We're all mocking and laughing at him to his face. That's gotta be a worse offense than trying to stay warm on Saturday.

 

None of us are falling down dead.

[Checkmate]

Mythra, I do think that this seems to be a harsh punishment... yet their times were different than what has evolved to today's standards. IMO, it is a wonderful thing that the NT came with a new dispensation. Does this qualify me for some degree of enlightenment? 

No, Amanda. It qualifies you as being gullible and silly.

 

Killing someone for gathering sticks IS a ridiculous punishment! And saying that "times were different" is a bullshit cop-out, and you know it. How does "times being different" excuse evil? I suppose slavery was OK, since times were different? How about keeping women barefoot, unemployed, uneducated and pregnant? Was that OK too? After all, "the times were different back then". Get real. WRONG is WRONG. I don't give a damn WHAT century or "dispensation" it is.

 

"New dispensation"? WTF? Let's ask Ananias and Saphira about God's new leniency policy. Oh that's right. We can't. They were fucking KILLED by the holy spook for lying about their tithes and offerings in this NEW Dispensation of "niceness".

 

Oh yes. And let's not forget about the NEW Dispensational teaching of everlasting torment in HELL for unbelievers. What a boon to society THAT'S going to be!

 

Amanda, will you PLEASE stop trying to defend the indefensible? YOU may be a nice person, but your "god" is a fucking dick!

[Vixentrox]

A fucking dick that rapes virgin women and gets them pregnant.

[Amanda]

So God changes with the times, then? He adapts his rules and edicts according to the people's culture?

 

Let's face it.  We're all mocking and laughing at him to his face.  That's gotta be a worse offense than trying to stay warm on Saturday.

 

None of us are falling down dead.

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IMO, I think that God may adapt and change with us as we change. Would you be the same with your 16 year old son as you were when he was 3? I think we are growing and maturing also. I am beginning to think more and more that there is a change in God also, in the NT.

 

Mythra, you may be mocking and laughing at who you think God is, as NO ONE KNOWS who/what God really is, yet IMO, I still think God can perceive your heart... and that is what counts. It seems to me that you and most people on this site seem to stand up for most of these same principles as Jesus did. BTW, I meant that as a compliment.

[Mythra]

Mythra, you may be mocking and laughing at who you think God is, as NO ONE KNOWS who/what God really is,

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/quote]

 

Exactly, Amanda. But who I think God is is based on who he says he is in his Holy Book, and the history of him as recorded therein.

 

Who you think he is is a conveniently tailored construct that is warped to fit who you think he should be.

[Amanda]

But Amanda, the problem with what you interpret is this...

 

Deuteronomy 5:28 The LORD heard you when you spoke to me and the LORD said to me, "I have heard what this people said to you. Everything they said was good. 29 Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!

 

Forever is a pretty long time and it is obvious that these laws were not given for just a set period of time but forever.

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Serenity Now, it seems in the KJV with lexicons... this verse is found in 29 and reads like this...

 

Deuteronomy 5

5:28

And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.

5:29

O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

 

And a word used here as 'always' which is defined in the lexicon as this:

 

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew...117&version=kjv

 

Perhaps, these effects of a commitment to these commandments/laws will be seen in their children forever.

[Amanda]

Killing someone for gathering sticks IS a ridiculous punishment! 

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Mr. Grinch, I agree. It seems so to me too. Although I haven't done much research into this one.

[Vixentrox]

Mr. Grinch, I agree. It seems so to me too. Although I haven't done much research into this one. 

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Your god. The lesson you should be learning is your god loves blood, death, and killing for stupid reasons.

[Checkmate]

Mr. Grinch, I agree. It seems so to me too. Although I haven't done much research into this one. 

What's there to research, M'dear? According to the bible, YHWH kills people at the drop of a dime for little to no GOOD reason.

 

And while I'm at it, let me throw this out for EVERYONE to take note of: GOD does play favorites.

 

If you will look CAREFULLY, you will see example after example of God killing both priests and the common man for "sinning". Most times immediate death results. No warnings. No chance for repentance.

 

YET, when one of God's KINGS screws the pooch, the royal offender gets off with warnings. Israel and Judah's kings sinned continuously and yet all that happened to them was that God sent them into captivity, or caused evil to come unto the PEOPLE, or had leprosy break out on the king, or kill the king's children. If the king repented, then God would relent of his divine punishment. And if the king never repented? He was still allowed to live, then die naturally and then be buried with his fathers.

 

No such luck for the Sabbath breaker, the God profaner or the Ark toucher Uzzah, huh?

 

Sounds like God IS a "respecter of persons" to me. But don't take my word for it. God read YOUR bible. I'll wait.

[Checkmate]

IMO, I think that God may adapt and change with us as we change. Would you be the same with your 16 year old son as you were when he was 3? I think we are growing and maturing also. I am beginning to think more and more that there is a change in God also, in the NT.

That's rich, Amanda! On the one hand I AGREE with you! God does change with us, because God is a CONSTRUCT of man! Why wouldn't he change according to how we view "him"?

 

On the other hand, doesn't the bible say, "I am the Lord thy God, I change not?" And "Jesus Christ is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever"?

 

I'm tempted to re-post your reply on a Christian Forum and watch their heads explode as they refute what you've said here! Classic!

[Kryten]

If you want to completely reject the Old Testament, then that's cool.  You're halfway to finding enlightenment.

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Priceless!

[SkepticOfBible]

Apparently, God had said if one sins in ignorance... sacrifice an animal and make atonements for what is done and all is forgiven. Yet, if one sins because they put themselves in an exhalted position and defiantly sin because they think they are above the law... then they must be put to death, as did the man who gathered these sticks.

 

Well that information is not there at all in the bible. That is just a speculation. Perhaps I could also speculate that the guy must be hungry and wanted to gather sticks to cook food. One speculation is just as valid as another

 

Mr. Grinch, I agree. It seems so to me too. Although I haven't done much research into this one.  

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Well, one of the thing you should never forget it according to your world view it was Jesus who gave these laws.

 

IMO, I think that God may adapt and change with us as we change. Would you be the same with your 16 year old son as you were when he was 3? I think we are growing and maturing also. I am beginning to think more and more that there is a change in God also, in the NT

 

Well, why do we Jesus? The perhaps there is a different way of attaining salvation. These times are certainly different than most times.

 

Funny thing I the other day I heard on the TV this one Baptist Leader saying how they "want to turn back time not 100 of years but 2000 year. The time of Jesus" That was just freaky. I think the context was regarding the issue of Women Pastors.

[SkepticOfBible]

What's there to research, M'dear?  According to the bible, YHWH kills people at the drop of a dime for little to no GOOD reason.

 

And while I'm at it, let me throw this out for EVERYONE to take note of:  GOD does play favorites.

 

If you will look CAREFULLY, you will see example after example of God killing both priests and the common man for "sinning".  Most times immediate death results.  No warnings.  No chance for repentance.

 

YET, when one of God's KINGS screws the pooch, the royal offender gets off with warnings.  Israel and Judah's kings sinned continuously and yet all that happened to them was that God sent them into captivity, or caused evil to come unto the PEOPLE, or had leprosy break out on the king, or kill the king's children.  If the king repented, then God would relent of his divine punishment. And if the king never repented?  He was still allowed to live, then die naturally and then be  buried with his fathers.

 

No such luck for the Sabbath breaker, the God profaner or the Ark toucher Uzzah, huh?

 

Sounds like God IS a "respecter of persons" to me.  But don't take my word for it.  God read YOUR bible.  I'll wait.

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My favourites ones are where God kills Onan for not impregranting his brothers wife (Genesis 38:7-10) and the second is where God once allowed David to go out and kill 200 Philistine men and cut off their foreskins so that David could afford to marry Saul's daughter (1 Samuel 18:20-27)

[Amanda]

Well that information is not there at all in the bible. That is just a speculation. Perhaps I could also speculate that the guy must be hungry and wanted to gather sticks to cook food. One speculation is just as valid as another

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Pritish, I think it is easy to "speculate" that the reason this person was put to death is because of his lofty attitude about himself, putting himself above these other people and their laws... as the 'story' goes like this...

 

Numbers

15:28

And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

-----

15:30

But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously *, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger *, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15:31

Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

15:32

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

 

The word 'presumptuously' is defined as I've "speculated" at this site:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew...311&version=kjv

 

I have found nothing indicating he just wanted to cook food.

[Amethyst]

Funny thing I the other day I heard on the TV this one Baptist Leader saying how they "want to turn back time not 100 of years but 2000 year. The time of Jesus" That was just freaky. I think the context was regarding the issue of Women Pastors.

 

They should go live in Iran then. They'd probably be perfectly happy there. Same mindset.