Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

The Apostles and Eternal Hell Teachings


Guest SerenityNow

Recommended Posts

Amanda: just remember, when we tell ya that we don't consider you to be a christian, we mean it as a compliment. :D

 

I'd tell ya that I respect your beliefs, but I got an image to maintain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 142
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Amanda

    36

  • Mythra

    19

  • SkepticOfBible

    12

  • dario

    12

It has left me speechless... and as you know, that is a rare occurrence for me!

Yes. It is. :lmao: But hey, you're in good company!!!

 

I really appreciate how you guys tolerate me!

Hard not to. :wave:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Amanda,

I used to be so like you. I used to focus on "just jesus" and the (what I thought) were the two main laws that were important that he came with....

The treat others how you would like to be treated and love thy neighbor.

 

Ditto. That was my last ditch attempt to be religious, being a liberal Christian. But I still couldn't reconcile it with hell, or the evidence I found that led to Christianity being an offshoot of Paganism.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ditto.  That was my last ditch attempt to be religious, being a liberal Christian.  But I still couldn't reconcile it with hell, or the evidence I found that led to Christianity being an offshoot of Paganism.

 

 

Another "ditto!"

 

Amanda, the thing about you is that whether you label yourself Christian or not, your life philosophy won't change much. That's cool... at least I think so. I don't know if it upsets you to think that way about yourself. Towards the end of my Christian days, I tried all sorts of mental gymnastics to make it all work out.... but in the end, I was like... FUCK this... I am going to explore on my own and stop worrying about justifying the Bible to Christians and nonChristians alike...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, you guys... I love each and everyone of you! I've said that ExC is my church, way back in the beginning! I have been accepted by you all far more than I have most Christian churches! It's your heart I judge, not your labels.

 

The dilemma I have is that you guys seem to have the Christ nature more than most of the Christians I know. Most of you seem to have it more than I do!!! I can not stand up to the religous right as you guys do... but Jesus did!!! I wish I could. I admire that!

 

I think if Jesus was here today... he'd like you guys best! I said this in the beginning too... that if my teacher, who was president and founder of the seminary in 26 countries, were to meet you guys... he would absolutely LOVE you all!!! Oh my God... he would think he was in heaven! I wish I could share who he was, but too much is at stake here. *sigh*

 

All I can say, is thank you so much for letting me 'hang' with you all. I may be oppositional in some aspects... but that can add a new dimension to your thinking, possibly. I have learned so much from you. More than I have since my teacher died in '97. You all fill the void of my spiritual growth, and I thank you in so many ways that I can not explain... and I don't think you would understand.

 

Even my teacher, so long ago, said that things such as Noah's flood was just a metaphor. I didn't believe him then, yet as I converse with you all... I wish I would of found more information of my teacher that seems to ring a truth within you all here. All I can say is life is give and take. My teacher agreed in so many ways with all of you, yet he stedfastly stood by the principles that I myself still find the cornerstone that I have found no better proposition/alliance elsewhere.

 

As I've said, therein lies my dilemma. I love you all more than any other body of people. What can I do?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even my teacher, so long ago, said that things such as Noah's flood was just a metaphor. I didn't believe him then, yet as I converse with you all... I wish I would of found more information of my teacher that seems to ring a truth within you all here.

 

Amanda~

 

Speaking of the flood.....

 

I picked up a copy of The Sins of Scripture by John Spong today. Have you read it or any of his books?

 

Tap

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Amanda~

 

Speaking of the flood.....

 

I picked up a copy of The Sins of Scripture by John Spong today. Have you read it or any of his books?

 

Tap

 

No, but I get his emails. Nothing I have received so far has implicated anything of Noah's flood. If you'd be willing to share some insights with me, they'd be well received and much appreciated! :thanks:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, you guys... I love each and everyone of you! I've said that ExC is my church, way back in the beginning! I have been accepted by you all far more than I have most Christian churches! It's your heart I judge, not your labels.

 

The dilemma I have is that you guys seem to have the Christ nature more than most of the Christians I know. Most of you seem to have it more than I do!!! I can not stand up to the religous right as you guys do... but Jesus did!!! I wish I could. I admire that!

 

I think if Jesus was here today... he'd like you guys best! I said this in the beginning too... that if my teacher, who was president and founder of the seminary in 26 countries, were to meet you guys... he would absolutely LOVE you all!!! Oh my God... he would think he was in heaven! I wish I could share who he was, but too much is at stake here. *sigh*

 

All I can say, is thank you so much for letting me 'hang' with you all. I may be oppositional in some aspects... but that can add a new dimension to your thinking, possibly. I have learned so much from you. More than I have since my teacher died in '97. You all fill the void of my spiritual growth, and I thank you in so many ways that I can not explain... and I don't think you would understand.

 

Even my teacher, so long ago, said that things such as Noah's flood was just a metaphor. I didn't believe him then, yet as I converse with you all... I wish I would of found more information of my teacher that seems to ring a truth within you all here. All I can say is life is give and take. My teacher agreed in so many ways with all of you, yet he stedfastly stood by the principles that I myself still find the cornerstone that I have found no better proposition/alliance elsewhere.

 

As I've said, therein lies my dilemma. I love you all more than any other body of people. What can I do?

 

 

Awl... youre so sweet.

 

I have found a lot of your views interesting... definitely some things I didn't consider when I was a Christian (even a liberal one).

 

You're basically a Christian Universalist, right? If so, it shouldn't bother you that you are attracted to a bunch of Christ-rejecting heathens. We have just chosen to find what you call the Christ nature through other routes. We decided that being limited by Christianity was no longer useful to us, and our minds were more free to explore without contradiction when we let go of that label.

 

:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Amanda~

 

Speaking of the flood.....

 

I picked up a copy of The Sins of Scripture by John Spong today. Have you read it or any of his books?

 

Tap

 

 

Ah... Spong. I read a lot of him before my official deconversion (although I had deconverted long before that, I just couldn't consciously accept it).

 

What do you think of him, TAP?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah... Spong.  I read a lot of him before my official deconversion (although I had deconverted long before that, I just couldn't consciously accept it).

 

What do you think of him, TAP?

 

 

I just started the book so you'll have to ask me in a week or so. However, I will be honest and tell you that everything I've read so far screams of blaspheme. That is my programmed response being raised a Baptist.

 

And I don't mean prgrammed as a Christian, but rather.....programmed as a denomination within the faith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just started the book so you'll have to ask me in a week or so. However, I will be honest and tell you that everything I've read so far screams of blaspheme. That is my programmed response being raised a Baptist.

 

And I don't mean prgrammed as a Christian, but rather.....programmed as a denomination within the faith.

 

 

Right.

 

I can pretty much guarantee that you won't like him. LOL He's more polemic than scholarly. Even my secular religion professors don't like him because of this.

 

IMO, he is trying to change Christianity into something it is not. But on the other hand, if he gets away with it, I think society will be a much better place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read some of his books too, and some things I liked and some I didn't. It was during the time when my faith started to falter, and I didn't see his theology as bad at all, but in some ways his criticizm of traditional Christianity made me study deeper. His books was kind of the door away from my faith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His books was kind of the door away from my faith.

 

Maybe I need to set this one aside and not read it then. :scratch: To be honest, the reason I purchased it was because I thought it would give me a greater understanding of some of the things that Amanda has come to believe and Universalist, as a whole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TAP, don't get me wrong. He's a Christian, but just a different kind. But me being very analytical, I wanted to search deeper, and I spent more time taking the "theories" further. As you know there were other factors that made me drop my faith, but these books gave me the thoughts that I might have misunderstood what religion was. Another person that influenced me was Joseph Campbell, and his teachings about myths.

 

You should read the book TAP, at least as a lithmus test. You need to know if the way you think, feel and believe about your religion is correct. Do you have an understanding of how the Jews wrote the stories, and why? You need to know, and you need to understand. There's a lot more to your faith than you know. And the reason you believe what you do, right now, is because you have been shielded from seeing the complete picture. You need more knowledge, and to see it from all perspectives.

 

My opinion is that you can't really know the full truth about anything unless you get information from both sides. Jesus said that the truth would set you free, but truth is not when you shield you input of information. You can't know about how to use a computer program, unless you read the books that helps you use it.

 

Seriously, you need to read the book.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe I need to set this one aside and not read it then. :scratch:   To be honest, the reason I purchased it was because I thought it would give me a greater understanding of some of the things that Amanda has come to believe and Universalist, as a whole.

TAP, I recommend the way of my teacher. It is important to find the personal message and interests in the Bible to YOU, look for truth by YOUR SPIRIT. The one thing my teacher did is to challenge ALL my previous thoughts about the Bible, by using the Bible! Just because people have said something for hundreds of years about the Bible, doesn't make it so... IMHO. If an interpretation bothers your conscience, critically examine this book closer and deeper... till you finally resolve it. I believe the loving answer is there, which many here at ExC got the same 'conclusions' on their own! That's why we like them sooooooo much!

 

I think upon closer examination to the deeper essence of this book, you will find at the heart of the matter is a place of valued respect for that which is unconditional love, and unfortunately sometimes that has to do with confronting those that condemn people. *sigh* Jesus said he came to take away the 'peace' so that we may have real peace. The first peace was speaking of 'complacency'. It seems I see more of this Christ naure here at ExC than I do at many churches! We know them by their actions, not their labels. I can respect the way each person at ExC got here, and I also have to respect the way I got here too. :shrug:

 

It is an interesting concept that came to me. If Jesus were to put online his message. Seeking no fame or fortune, just wanting to help internally liberate and uplift the oppressed... and found a great following to his message. Then 'trolls' came in and hijacked his site, and used it to further their own causes, maybe believing them to be good, and led everyone into believing these impostered, twisted messages were of this mighty source! Wow! :scratch: It may be wise to break away from these impostered beliefs, yet even though it may be hard to find... the initial stuff may be worth keeping. :wink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pritishd, I agree 1000% with every one of your posts.  Just wanted to let you know that you aren't the only one who sees it this way.  Were you a Messianic Jew by any chance?

 

No I was actually a Hindu from India, who happen to land into a christian fundamentalist dominated area in New Zealand. My office is right in the middle of bible college.

 

But I was always interested in religion, but I actually believed "All paths lead to one place" and we should be tolerant of each other. I had never studied christianity in depth but was aware of the OT and NT. One day however I came across a dvd with a seminar entitled "Tolerance is Myth". This seminar was given Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason fame. That felt kind of wierd, but he was raising good points. So that got me into mode of investigation between the christian and non christian debate.

 

However after following numerous website I finally got to the following website

Agnostic Review of Christianity.

 

This was the best website cause this actually took the bible and dismantled it for me by looking at the verses. It kind of confirmed my research about the bible.

 

A lot of post actually come from this website. In the end I also gave up on Hinduism cause I had to apply the smae reasoning for hinduism as well.

 

I consider myself on a more of a agnostic/deist standpoint, but I do accept the fact that there is something called Spirituality and inner peace, cause I have experianced it myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Amanda,

 

I have to agree with others that you are unlike the other christians that I come across over here.

 

If you study the Bible in a manner that it is superfically presented, without examining how words have evolved from their prime root meanings, comprehending the context a message is presented, cross-referencing throughout the Bible, understanding the 'times' it is delievered, then you will get a superficial

meaning and miss many of there gems I think are there. 

 

So pretty much you are saying that the bible is not translated correctly. I thought the KJV and NIV bible were supposed to be translated by hundreds of linguistic experts, so that anyone can read it.

 

It seems that the Christian god did a very poor of communitcation as he needs a lot of apologist/linguist to explain to the masses what it actually means, and with each new Translation, the meaning word of god seems to changing

 

However a lot of christians believe(including the ICR) believe that the KJV is a divinely translated. In fact if you research over the internet you will find that there are tons of debates which goes on within the christian world about whether you should use only KJV or other translation. In my debate about the bible I use the KJV and the NIV as as these are the most popular amongst christians, and take it that they are translated correctly.

 

Beside if you take this stand then it works both ways, especially regarding the prophecy of the "virgin birth" in Isiah. The Jews argue that the word "Alma" actually means "young woman" and not "virgin birth", and that the KJV has mistranslated it. If you start to take this into consideration, then a lot of things regarding the birth of christ starts to change.

 

One advice I would like to give to you, if you do intend to study the NT as a start off point, then you should always investigate verses which refer to OT, especially regarding prophecies. Cause many times they are either taken out of context or sometimes they don't exist at all, as in the case of

 

John 7:38

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

 

Luke 24:46

"Thus it is written and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day."

 

1 Corinthians 15:3-4:

"For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures."

 

Matthew (27:9-10).

"Then was fulfilled that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was priced, whom certain of the children of Israel did price; and they gave them for the potter's field as the Lord appointed me"

 

Matthew (2:23)

"that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets, that he should be called a Nazarene"(2:23).

I have looked through a lot NIV study bible but I haven't found any prophecies in OT regarding these verses

 

I have also found verses in the Protestant bible to refer to acrophyical books which are deemed uninspired by the Protestant community.

 

Jude 8-9

In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

 

Jude 14-15

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him

 

 

However I have found something very interesting regarding the Ten Commandments, there were discrepencies amongst translation. It's the part where where god says that you should take rest on the sabbath. He also includes the Oxens, wife and children. It is in the last categories that there is a discrepency ie regarding slaves. In the KJV and the American Standard bible it says you must let the slaves rest. In many different translation it is rendered as servant and in many others this statements is not there at all.

 

You have also mentioned in your latter post that Noah's ark is a metaphor. :lmao: . Boy you are sure gonna be hated by all the die hard christian who are young and old earth creationist and biblical inerrantist. Some guys over there have very interesting ideas as to how the Noah ark would be possible. Are you a member of any Christian forum where I can see some of your debates regarding this issue "with your brothers and sisters in christ"?

 

Btw just be sure where are you coming from, what kind of creationist are you?

 

Kind of Creationist

 

No, we are saved by grace. The more the sins, grace abounds even more! We were given a high standard of obedience to live up to in the OT. Jesus, representing 'man', by his 'blood' is related to ALL of us. By the fullness of his Spirit, he related to God in a maturity worthy of God. Man could not totally comply in the 'obedience' to the law the way it was established. Jesus, on the cross, with every sin that could be perpetrated was done to him... and in the worst of it all he said... Father, the head of Spiritual powers, forgive them for they know not what they do. They are doing the best they know how, in their particular situation, with the coping skills available to them, if they would of known any better... they would of done that!!! .... And it is THAT concept which is grace that saved us, IMHO. How can ANYONE be condemned for not doing better than their best?! Obviously that is ALL we can do! Still EVERYONE needs to be held accountable and responsible for their actions, we're not going to 'throw them away' though, IMO.

 

Otherwise known as Sola fide or salvation by faith. I have already shown you how Salvation by grace is contradicted by the OT.

 

The catholics also oppose this stand because you can only believe this by ignoring other verses in the NT itself

 

2 James 14 - 20

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 

Galatians 6 (1 - 5)

Doing Good to All

1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, 5for each one should carry his own load.

 

Catholic Link On Justification By faith

 

No. IMHO, God was all there was in the beginning. His spirit separated himself among mankind in order to have companionship and many different experiences. He, through Jesus is reconciling everything back to unity in God, what is sacred... only being better than before, by the richness of this experience. Hopefully this will be a long, slow process IMO, FWIW.

 

Well, you still haven't demonstrated how Jesus even fulfilled the OT let alone be god. Let me repharse some of your statements regarding since I assume you have adopted the doctrine of trinity

 

Jesus, through himself is reconciling everything back to unity in Jesus.

 

That doesn't make much sense to me.

 

Pritish, if you're really interested in my interpretations of scriptures such as these, I suggest you go back and read through some of my previous posts, where I have addressed such matters. As I've said, NO ONE has time to devote the time in a manner it deserves, to know it in its entirity. It would take me all day, if not days to research so much material you've presented!  :phew:   Sorry.

 

There is tons of stuff on the internet for which people have researched about the bible. The catholics have done it for centuaries.

 

Please PM me some of your links regarding these subjects

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Amanda you anchor your theology based on on Judeo-Christian system and apply it back and horizontally to non-Christians, but your anchoring and theory of individual 'Christ-self' is not so reconcilable with Islam. There is something even more rewarding than Heaven (Salvation in Christian terms) for a Muslim, that is to know Allah's (God's) 100th Name.

 

After reading your many posts, IMO, you are better off anchoring on Judaism as the "lightbulb".....and that Jesus and Muhammud helped to propagate the Torah.

 

Yet, you have invested so much in it, it may not be easy for you to overhaul and start from scratch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.