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Goodbye Jesus

I'm a pussy


seeker

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I was typing a PM to someone on here and decided I wanted a broad view of what I was typing. So here goes. I was in Barnes and Noble last night (I've been spending alot of time there reading about Christiantity) when I picked up a book in the Quantum Physics section called "The Science Of God". The author pointed out a bunch of scientific facts that are validated in the Bible and vice versa. I begin feeling like shit!!! I starting thinking "This is damn good evidence for the Bible being correct! I don't have any rebuttles or anything to refute it!!!". Then I starting thinking "Shit maybe God jsut spoke in Metaphors to the people alive back then since they didn't have "Science" as we have it today. " Then came all the thoughts of myself burning in hell and the whole Christian idea of right and wrong....etc...I'M NOT EVEN A CHRISTIAN!!!! I mean there are well respected scientists who are also Christians. They don't believe literally word for word everything in the Bible. LIke the whole 6000 year old earth, humans living for hundreds of years.

 

But I have days where I do feel tottaly whole and connected to whatever God is "It" I guess you could say. I feel completly unshakable in my beliefs. Ever since I was a child I've gotten these feelings. And it never goes hand and hand with a Holy book, a scripture, a verse, or someone elses opinion. Its always just an experience that helps validate for ME that I'm connected to "It". My problem is since I've come to know this Christian idea of "life" through my girfriend I've begun questioning everything. I don't believe everything I read, but I'm stricken with the "what if" syndrome. You don't see science being talked about with the muslim Bible, or the Buddhist texts (maybe pyschology with the Buddhist). The Christian bible does have some verse's that are very close to what science has now discovered. Why is that? What if they are right? I wouldn't consider the "what if they are rigth" if there wasn't so much history behind whats in the Bible, of if there wasn't some hints of Science in there. It gets me to the point where I feel like I have NO CLUE WHAT TO BELIEVE!!!

 

Sorry for the rant. I admit I'm venting. And I'm looking for someone to make me feel better about what I believe. Because I'm a pussy and can't just stick to what I know makes me feel good. I need validation, support....Or is that because I'm infected with this new idea that all my thoughts are from the devil :>(

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Look seeker,

 

Any text dealing with as broad a range as the Bible, when examined with hindsight and scientific knowledge, is bound to get things right every once in a while. At the same time, it is also bound to get things completely and utterly wrong from time to time as well.

 

I wouldn't worry about it and dwell on it too long. If you just take a look at the works of some other scholars, I guarantee you that you will run into at least as many misses as you will hits.

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You're infected by the christian meme. This sounds like a trite answer, but if you examine it you will see it's true. The fear of hell is a powerful psychological plant to get you in and keep you in. Read some secular lit on the subject, not just the christian side, which is slanted.

 

Others on this board can help you out with the science angle better than I, but I can say with confidence that the science in the bible is laughable compared to what we know today. As for a plethora of respected scientists who are christians, name a few; especially in the biological or physical fields.

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Seeker, some thoughts...

 

The old greek philosophers invented the word "atom", and they were right. They had other ideas that proved right too, and some that didn't. The word electron comes from them too, even though their ideas of electrons were wrong.

 

There is a book that connects science and quantum physics to zen buddhism. "the zen of physics" or something like that. Does it make Zen Buddhism prophetic and true?

 

Nostradamus wrote so cryptic that you can interpret everything he wrote as a prediction of events in history. Would it make him a prophet?

 

The Bible is full of thoughts and cryptic words, so there's no problem to find connections when you want to. But we can't know if the writers intentionally wrote something to be interpreted the way we do today. You can find anything you want, if you just want to find it.

 

Consider the hype that was about the Bible Code some years ago, that the Bible translated to some encoded message had prophesies of Hitler and other events. I spent some time studying it, and I can tell you that Shakespears collected work can foretell the same things, if you use the methods they used. I even could take all the text written on this website, and make a match to any event in history. You find what you want to find.

 

The Bible claims Earth has four corners and is a circle (not a sphere), so no, the Bible does not have everything right.

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You're infected by the christian meme.  This sounds like a trite answer, but if you examine it you will see it's true.  The fear of hell is a powerful psychological plant to get you in and keep you in.  Read some secular lit on the subject, not just the christian side, which is slanted. 

 

Others on this board can help you out with the science angle better than I, but I can say with confidence that the science in the bible is laughable compared to what we know today.  As for a plethora of respected scientists who are christians, name a few; especially in the biological or physical fields.

 

 

If feels like I'm infected. I'm not kidding. Its like mental piracy! I have been looking into the Gnostic Bible (I stumbled on it at Barnes and Noble and it looks good!) I've also been reading how there is a belief that the men that wrote the bible purposely left out certain things that Jesus said. Things like REincarnation, the fact that we are all "Christs" so to speak...etc. I've been reading these sites for the christian/science view lately. Just to see what they say!

 

http://www.wheaton.edu/ACG/

 

http://www.asa3.org/

 

 

 

Hans I sent you a PM!!!

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The Bible is full of thoughts and cryptic words, so there's no problem to find connections when you want to. But we can't know if the writers intentionally wrote something to be interpreted the way we do today. You can find anything you want, if you just want to find it.

 

That's a good point. Humans by their very nature search for patterns, even where none exist. It's part of what helps us survive in the world, but often it causes us to interpret things incorrectly. For example, if we are looking at the same cloud together and I tell you, "look, I see a cat." You will invariably see the cat. There of course is not one, but I fed you the pattern and your mind found it.

 

It's very easy to take the cryptic language of the bible and read into it modern day events and even scientific discoveries because of this type of pattern seeking nature of our own minds. This is why it is very important to remain objective and to examine evidence from a testable position. The scientific method, and many other academic guidelines force us to examine evidence in such a way that overrides our natural human pattern-seeking, paradigm-oriented observations so that we can get closer to the truth.

 

It is truth you seek I believe, not a Pascalian wager out of the christian hell. If it is in fact truth you seek, I challenge you to examine the secular side of the evidence along with the christian side. You will find one side wanting I am certain. At a minimum I urge you to consider reading the book "Asking the Right Questions: A guide to critical thinking" by Browne and Keeley. This is an objective book that does not address religion, but addresses how we examine evidence and how to apply a healthy critical eye on arguments put to you. If you really want truth and not just an easy out from this pressure you feel, I hope that you accept my suggestion.

 

Best of luck

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You don't see science being talked about with the muslim Bible, or the Buddhist texts (maybe pyschology with the Buddhist).

Not true. There are Muslim Apologetics too, claiming the Quran made scientific discoveries before modern science.

 

http://www.quran-islam.org/112.html

http://www.islamicity.com/science/

 

A anti-quran-science website:

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Science/

 

And I saw some anti-anti sites too, criticizing the critique.

 

---

 

The reason you don't see Islam discussing it's "quran science", is because you're not a Muslim.

And that would go for all other religions too.

You would have "proof" of science in each one, if you just lived in it.

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When I was a gullible teenager I was given a couple of magazines from some Christian group (I'm thinking Worldwide Church of God), and therein was information from real scientists that evolution could not possibly have occured, given the astronomical odds against life ever forming in the first place. It also went into how birds and dolphins couldn't have evolved. It was instrumental in my converting to Christianity. I didn't know it then, but I was fooled.

Fast Forward 30 years, and I see this program on TBN with Grant Jeffries talking about the bible codes, and how the odds of such information being in an ancient book are so astronomical, that the mathemeticians that examined the codes and did the calculations were all converting to Christianity!! I was still a Christian, but the smell of bullshit hurt my nose. It got me started on some research on the bible codes, and one of the sites that came up was ReligiousTolerance.org. I followed the links, read some more, and eventually discovered that it was all crap. But I read on... I then discovered all of the thousands of beliefs and denominations and religions in the world, what some of the key differences were, and how they contradict each other. One site led to another and I eventually discovered hell wasn't real, the bible is FULL of contradictions and errors, and contrary to what I'd been told for years, there is in fact no evidence outside the bible that Jesus was a real person.

When I was a gullible teenager...

I now know that the books I was given were extremely flawed in their logic, left out vital information, and were written by believers trying to convince themselves (and others) that God must really be real.

I can easily see and point out the stupidity of the articles. And Grant Jeffries is a moron.

I didn't know it then, but I was fooled.
Don't be fooled. Don't be stupid by choice either.
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But I have days where I do feel tottaly whole and connected to whatever God is "It" I guess you could say. I feel completly unshakable in my beliefs. Ever since I was a child I've gotten these feelings. And it never goes hand and hand with a Holy book, a scripture, a verse, or someone elses opinion.

 

If god is personal, what use are a bunch of musty old books? The 'personal experience' argument, while unconvincing to others, is the only one that is truly valid to you.

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http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=3843

 

The point is: the Bible doesn't direct us to truth... it's INTERPRETED to make the truth fit Biblical passages. It's just a matter of confirmation bias... they'll note the really arcane Biblical passages that might in a very crude sort of way "predict" science, but will ignore the abysmal failures of interpretation of the past.

 

Anyone can look for current events to link to a Biblical passage... when people can start taking Biblical passage, using those to make PREDICTIONS, and can do so with as much reliability as science, THEN I will be impressed.

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Guest Iconoclastic1
If feels like I'm infected. I'm not kidding. Its like mental piracy!

 

How right you are, check out Christianity Meme.

 

The author pointed out a bunch of scientific facts that are validated in the Bible and vice versa. I begin feeling like shit!!! I starting thinking "This is damn good evidence for the Bible being correct! I don't have any rebuttles or anything to refute it!!!".

 

Like what? Give us some specifics. Some logical fallacies are so clever that most people don't even notice the error, yet they are still fallacious.

 

But I have days where I do feel tottaly whole and connected to whatever God is "It" I guess you could say. I feel completly unshakable in my beliefs. Ever since I was a child I've gotten these feelings. And it never goes hand and hand with a Holy book, a scripture, a verse, or someone elses opinion.

 

Many, many people have these feelings; including many atheists, believe it or not. I'm confident that to some degree it has to do with a part of the brain known as the "God Spot". It's a part of the brain that can be stimulated merely by thinking about "spiritual" things, for lack of a better term. The effect can be so strong as to even cause hallucinations when hyperstimulated. Some info if you're interested:

 

The God Spot

 

The Christian bible does have some verse's that are very close to what science has now discovered. Why is that? What if they are right?

 

It's BS, believe me. Sometimes you hear things described in such a way that the bible appears correct, but in actually it was not even close. As an example, some xians point to Isaiah 40:22 as proof that the bible authors knew the world was a sphere before the rest of the world knew. The word used however, in the original hebrew, is khug, translated means compass, circle.

 

Keep in mind that these people want you to believe, so that they can win brownie points with whatever deity floats their particular boat. The meme wants to spread, that's its primary goal, its prime directive. It manipulates people into spreading itself, even if it means the person must use dishonesty to do it. They have no qualms whatsoever with lying to you in order to assimilate you into their collective, if I may be pardoned for using borg terminology there. :Wendywhatever:

 

If you want, tell us some of the science in the bible and I'll try and help set you straight on it.

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Like what?  Give us some specifics.  Some logical fallacies are so clever that most people don't even notice the error, yet they are still fallacious.

It's BS, believe me.  Sometimes you hear things described in such a way that the bible appears correct, but in actually it was not even close.  As an example, some xians point to Isaiah 40:22 as proof that the bible authors knew the world was a sphere before the rest of the world knew.  The word used however, in the original hebrew, is khug, translated means compass, circle.

 

Keep in mind that these people want you to believe, so that they can win brownie points with whatever deity floats their particular boat.  The meme wants to spread, that's its primary goal, its prime directive.  It manipulates people into spreading itself, even if it means the person must use dishonesty to do it.  They have no qualms whatsoever with lying to you in order to assimilate you into their collective, if I may be pardoned for using borg terminology there. :Wendywhatever:

 

If you want, tell us some of the science in the bible and I'll try and help set you straight on it.

 

 

I'm going back to the bookstore tonight, so I'll write down as many as I can find from that book. Thanks so much for your reply! I'm looking forward to your responses....believe me!!!!

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Seeker-

 

Ask yourself this question: is it possible for human beings to have written the 'scientific truths' that are in the Bible without divine influence?

 

That is to say, if we can postulate a naturalistic theory for some phenomenon, then we would be unjustified to postulate a supernaturalistic theory.

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Guest Iconoclastic1
Seeker-

 

Ask yourself this question: is it possible for human beings to have written the 'scientific truths' that are in the Bible without divine influence?

 

That is to say, if we can postulate a naturalistic theory for some phenomenon, then we would be unjustified to postulate a supernaturalistic theory.

not to mention that a good many of the "scientific truths" in the bible are far from being divinely accurate:

 

1 Kings 7:23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

 

Round, ten cubits across, thirty cubits all around. Anybody notice the problem here? This implies that a circle with a diameter of 1 has a circumfrence of exactly 3, which is not even close to the actual value of pi.

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Guest Dragonblade

You're right, you are a pussy. The Devil is deciving you. You should follow the Bible, word for word. You are going to burn in eternal fire forever. Face it Jack, you're doomed. Doomed I say.

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You're right, you are a pussy.  The Devil is deciving you.  You should follow the Bible, word for word.  You are going to burn in eternal fire forever.  Face it Jack, you're doomed.  Doomed I say.

 

 

Damn. That sucks.

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The Christian meme can be really dang infectious sometimes. Just remember, there's no proof for any of it. And just because something is written in a book doesn't make it automatically true.

 

I think the scientists showed a while back that there was a gene responsible for believing in religion. Call it the gullibility gene, or whatever you want to. I think this is a dominant gene in our species. For whatever reasons, it just hasn't evolved out of our DNA yet, but it probably will eventually, once people learn that they can get along just fine without it.

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The Christian meme can be really dang infectious sometimes.  Just remember, there's no proof for any of it.  And just because something is written in a book doesn't make it automatically true.

 

I think the scientists showed a while back that there was a gene responsible for believing in religion.  Call it the gullibility gene, or whatever you want to.  I think this is a dominant gene in our species.  For whatever reasons, it just hasn't evolved out of our DNA yet, but it probably will eventually, once people learn that they can get along just fine without it.

yup. I think the need to believe evolved out of the necessity to conform and unite the group. The larger pack of animals with the same goal and vision had a better chance of survival. They stuck together, followed the leader blindly, didn't question. Unfortunately for the religious mind, the questioning and cynical mind evolved too, to it's challenging the older part of the brain.

 

Who will win? It's yet to see. But I know where I place my bet.

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Found that book on Amazon. They have this nifty "look inside" feature that allows you to see a limited amount of pages. Scroll down and go to the "read the first page" link.

 

Anyway, the first argument is the Big Bang theory (i.e. that if the Big Bang was off by just a teeny tiny bit, life would not have evolved and we would not be here, so there must logically be an intelligent creator).

 

First of all, the Big Bang is just a theory. Second of all, just because the odds of something happening randomly are remote doesn't mean that they are impossible. People do win the Powerball, after all. Third, if someone created the Big Bang, who created him or her? Fourth, even if there is a creator, that doesn't mean it's Biblegod.

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Here's a snippet I copied from the Amazon site:

 

This book accepts neither Bible nor science as being individually sufficient for a hungry mind seeking explanations of and(sic) purpose in life. In that sense, it is for skeptics and religious believers alike. These seemingly disparate sources of knowledge are combined as a single data base from which generalized conclusions are drawn.

 

The bullshit alarms are going off in my head already - it reeks of the ID strategy of not proving the bible but trying to muddy the waters of true science. Or taking the wussy way out with a compromise that will leave both sides wanting.

 

In my opinion, its impossible to write a book on science that both skeptics and believers will agree with or find useful. At any rate, scientific theories married with bible stories is not an ideal match. My guess is there is going to be some real liberal interpretations of both bible verse and scientific theories.

 

What appears to be diametrically opposed biblical and scientific descriptions of the creation of the universe, of the start of life on Earth, and of our human origins are actually identical realities but viewed from vastly different perspectives. Once these perspectives are identified, they coexist comfortably with all the rigorous science and traditional belief anyone could demand.

 

That is just wrong. Plain wrong. Religion and philosophy can be viewed through different perspectives, but cold hard facts cannot. You can't say, 'What Einstein really meant was...' or 'In a sense, evolution is actually...'

 

I have serious doubts about this work already, but I will not judge it completely unless I read it. Try not to let it give you anxiety attacks, seeker - from where I sit, this guy is going to have to pull off some astro-fucking-nomical work to get science and the bible to jibe!

 

Also, here's an Amazon opinion left by an enthusiastic reader:

 

Must for parents, debunk the secular ideas September 24, 2005

Reviewer: xxxx xxxxxx

 

When you need answers for your children to debunk the secular reasoning why there is no God this book is a must read. It gives you ammunition for the difficult questions.

 

My confidence in this book is fading fast... :scratch:

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At any rate, scientific theories married with bible stories is not an ideal match. My guess is there is going to be some real liberal interpretations of both bible verse and scientific theories.

That is just wrong. Plain wrong. Religion and philosophy can be viewed through different perspectives, but cold hard facts cannot.

I got some books that are quite enlightning. "Deeper than Darwin" from John F. Haught and "The soul's religion" of Thomas Moore that sketch a future for religion and spirituality shoulder to shoulder with science.
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  • 2 weeks later...
Because I'm a pussy and can't just stick to what I know makes me feel good. I need validation, support....Or is that because I'm infected with this new idea that all my thoughts are from the devil :>(

 

When I saw the subject I thought of something different.

 

When someone calls me a pussy, I usually tell them "Well, you are what you eat"

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