Guest AudeSapere Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Yes. We're actually working on our salvation as atheists and apostates!!! HanSolo, I think your right. I grew up in a christian home and I definetly had to get away in order to really get what christianity was all about. The trick is to seperate what is of God and what is of humans in christianity. Once you figure that out it makes a hell of a lot more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 carissime Aude Sapere, Putem, si satis eruditus sis ut latine loquaris, te diligentius de naturae rerum veritate quaesiturum esse. Veritas omnibus intellectum habentibus probanda est. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Hey MythraWhy don't you ask for a special revelation? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I did. And, like Charlie Brown on Halloween, all I got was a rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 I did. And, like Charlie Brown on Halloween, all I got was a rock. I waited for the Great Pumpkin in the pumpkin patch all year EVERY YEAR. I guess I'm just one of those predestined to never seeing the orange bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 ps: Where the hell is the third heaven? Exactly how many heavens are there? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thats just another example of a scientific error in the bible, Paul like most people at his time believed in tolemy's view of the universe, in which the earth was the center of the universe and various levels off heaven existed between the planets. This was developed further by the catholics, there were 7 levels of heaven, 7 types of angels, 7 levels of hell....they really liked the number 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 IIRC, the number 7 is the number of Perfection and God, 8 is eternity, 6 is human... and other ones I don't remember. It's all from numerology, and a lot of influenced from mystical kabbalah. One belief is that the number Pi is related to God somehow. (The perfect circle) Numbers have a supernatural meaning in mysticism. 12 months, 4 seasons... That's one of the other arguments to why you can see Pagan influence in the Bible. It's soaked with mystical numbers. Why would God even consider using 12, 7, 3, 6 (like number of the beast 666.) and so on, if Christianity is based on faith and grace only, and that it is so against mysticism, witchcraft, paganism et.al. God would have removed all mysticism from his drooly book if mysticism was false. Numberology shouldn't be part of Christianity or Judaism, but it is hidden in the books. (66 books). 7 days. 70x7 times to forgive. and so much more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Actually the number 7 comes from: 28 days for a complete cycle of the moon phase. 4x7 The original length of a month was 28 days. (Month derived from the word Moon) That's what made up the week. Then 6 days for creation. Man was created last. 6 = human 7th day, rest, all done. Perfection. = God's day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pug Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 Have you ever read Kissing Hank's Ass? I highly recommend it. Great parody and fully on point. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mr. Grinch, "Well, if I knew you were one of those, I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you, I'll be there counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater, you Hankless person you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExRC Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 I've honestly never been too interested in debating God's omnipotence/omniscience, whatever. It's an interesting start, but there are arguments that have way more solid answers. Omnipotence/omniscience debates tend to eventually spiral into a series of cop-outs and rationalizations and leads to much unproductive bickering. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is what gets me. God's omnipotence/omniscience means: 1) He KNEW before he created me that I would not believe; 2) He STILL created me knowing that he is going to send me to hell. Unless he's some sick, sadistic fuck, DON'T CREATE ME IN THE FIRST DAMN PLACE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted October 6, 2005 Author Share Posted October 6, 2005 This is what gets me. God's omnipotence/omniscience means: 1) He KNEW before he created me that I would not believe; 2) He STILL created me knowing that he is going to send me to hell. Unless he's some sick, sadistic fuck, DON'T CREATE ME IN THE FIRST DAMN PLACE. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhuntermt Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 In my response to our spammer today this thought came to mind. God is ominipotent right? It means he can do anything. So why is it that he can't save me even after I reject his offering of salvation? Why only one simple path to salvation? Pan forward into the future. I'm judged for being the heathen dirtbag that I am and cast into the fiery pits forever and ever. As I tumble down in all my weeping and teeth gnashing horror I cry out to god, God! please have mercy on me!!!!" And then god says, nope. Sorry, it's too late. I offered you salvation and you rejected it. Nothing I can do for you now buddy. What??? Nothing he can do for me? Why not? He's god. He's all powerful. He can do anything. And, if he forgoes this omnipotence of his and lets me burn forever and ever he becomes an evil monster, of the likes the world has never known. He lets me suffer and burn without hope when he COULD have done something. If he can't, then he is not all powerful and the story you believe is bullshit. Which is it? God is not all powerful or god is evil? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> VDF: New here, was was about to log off (NEED to log off and get to work) but your message caught my eye. To answer your "Which is it?" question, I'd say take your pick, or choose both if you prefer. That's only logical after accepting your premise, stated in he form of your question "So why is it that he can't save me even after I reject his offering of salvation?" Rejecting your premise, of course preempts/negates the final question ("Which is it?"). Since I'm a crazed Universalist who may or may not be a Christian, but in any case believes in a God who saves all people from imperfection, including death, I would ask a very different "Which is it?" question: Is it because God is all powerful, or all good, or both? Good post. RH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 This is what gets me. God's omnipotence/omniscience means: 1) He KNEW before he created me that I would not believe; 2) He STILL created me knowing that he is going to send me to hell. Unless he's some sick, sadistic fuck, DON'T CREATE ME IN THE FIRST DAMN PLACE. Agree. And also: If God has free will and can change his mind. And if God knows what he's going to decide to do tomorrow, and also he knows what he is going to do tomorrow. When next day comes, he either do what he knew he would, which means that he has no free will Or he change his mind and do something else, but it would mean that what he knew yesterday was false. So let's say that he knew yesterday that he would change his mind today. That only means that if does what he knew he would change his mind to, he still doesn't have a free will. Or he will not do what he changed his mind to, and he was still wrong yesterday. You follow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Paul Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 In my response to our spammer today this thought came to mind. God is ominipotent right? It means he can do anything. So why is it that he can't save me even after I reject his offering of salvation? Why only one simple path to salvation? Pan forward into the future. I'm judged for being the heathen dirtbag that I am and cast into the fiery pits forever and ever. As I tumble down in all my weeping and teeth gnashing horror I cry out to god, God! please have mercy on me!!!!" And then god says, nope. Sorry, it's too late. I offered you salvation and you rejected it. Nothing I can do for you now buddy. What??? Nothing he can do for me? Why not? He's god. He's all powerful. He can do anything. And, if he forgoes this omnipotence of his and lets me burn forever and ever he becomes an evil monster, of the likes the world has never known. He lets me suffer and burn without hope when he COULD have done something. If he can't, then he is not all powerful and the story you believe is bullshit. Which is it? God is not all powerful or god is evil? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yours is a false scenario. You're totally ignoring that God is also Just. Why would He be obligated to show you mercy? To let you serve your punishment is totally just. And, no, God cannot "do anything". He always acts consistent with His nature. He cannot lie and He cannot be unjust or unmerciful. And He WILL NOT do tricks for you just because you think you need proof of something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 Read your bible. Your god is a fucking monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Paul Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 Hey MythraWhy don't you ask for a special revelation? Think about what you would need to see in order to believe, and see if you get it. I got an answer and since so far I have not been diagnosed with a mental illness and I wasn't high at the time I will believe it and thus in God. Because in the end I want to. Now when I begin to get angry over what I feel is God being unjust I pray and I get an answer. Paul didn't ask for one but he got one because in his zeal for following God he had learned to be against Jesus and christians. In his heart he really thought he was doing what God wanted so God seeing that he would not hear the message anyother way decided to make an apperance. Salvation isn't a formula and its not the same for everyone. God meets everyone where we are at and he knows our hearts. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "Special Revelation" has already been given and is documented in the form of Scripture which you now possess and reject. Just like Luke 16:" 29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 “But he said, ‘No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”" This qualifies today as your "special revelation". You get no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Yours is a false scenario. You're totally ignoring that God is also Just. Why would He be obligated to show you mercy? To let you serve your punishment is totally just. And, no, God cannot "do anything". He always acts consistent with His nature. He cannot lie and He cannot be unjust or unmerciful. And He WILL NOT do tricks for you just because you think you need proof of something. Paul, define just please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Paul Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Rightly punishing wrong. Rightly rewarding right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Torture is just? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Rightly punishing wrong. Rightly rewarding right. So you think behaviour should be based on punishment and reward? How well do you think that works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyFeline Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Rightly punishing wrong. Rightly rewarding right. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I use this thing far too often here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExRC Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Agree. And also: If God has free will and can change his mind. And if God knows what he's going to decide to do tomorrow, and also he knows what he is going to do tomorrow. When next day comes, he either do what he knew he would, which means that he has no free will Or he change his mind and do something else, but it would mean that what he knew yesterday was false. So let's say that he knew yesterday that he would change his mind today. That only means that if does what he knew he would change his mind to, he still doesn't have a free will. Or he will not do what he changed his mind to, and he was still wrong yesterday. You follow? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Very good! Yes, I follow 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 "Special Revelation" has already been given and is documented in the form of Scripture which you now possess and reject. Just like Luke 16:" 29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 “But he said, ‘No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”" This qualifies today as your "special revelation". You get no more. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Off course 1600 years later Martin Luther will get another special revelation and remove certain books from the bible and hereby correct "the absolute word of god" So first of all which is the correct scripture? The Jewish Bible The Catholic Bible The Protestant Bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Off course 1600 years later Martin Luther will get another special revelation and remove certain books from the bible and hereby correct "the absolute word of god" So first of all which is the correct scripture? The Jewish Bible The Catholic Bible The Protestant Bible Or the No Bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Or the No Bible? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the one from New Orleans? before or after Katrina? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Bill Griffiths's take on the subject: http://zippythepinhead.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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