Here's a silly question Christians

[Vigile]

That's only logical after accepting your premise, stated in he form of your question "So why is it that he can't save me even after I reject his offering of salvation?" 

 

Rejecting your premise, of course preempts/negates the final question ("Which is it?").  Since I'm a crazed Universalist who may or may not be a Christian, but in any case believes in a God who saves all people from imperfection, including death, I would ask a very different "Which is it?" question: Is it because God is all powerful, or all good, or both?

 

Good post. 

 

RH

 

I like your premise better. However, if you are a biblical literalist it is much harder to reject the premise in question.

 

Welcome to the board.

[Vigile]

If God has free will and can change his mind.

 

And if God knows what he's going to decide to do tomorrow, and also he knows what he is going to do tomorrow.

 

When next day comes, he either do what he knew he would, which means that he has no free will

 

Or he change his mind and do something else, but it would mean that what he knew yesterday was false.

 

 

Play that over in your head a few times; it will give you a headache. Good points Hans.

[Vigile]

Yours is a false scenario. You're totally ignoring that God is also Just. Why would He be obligated to show you mercy? To let you serve your punishment is totally just. And, no, God cannot "do anything". He always acts consistent with His nature. He cannot lie and He cannot be unjust or unmerciful. And He WILL NOT do tricks for you just because you think you need proof of something.

 

How in the hell is it just to forgive the worst of the worst sinners at the drop of a tear and on their last breath as life slips from their lungs but unjust to forgive me one second after death when all facts have finally become apparent (assuming they are)? You christians have the most fucked up sense of justice the world has known. And tell me that if your son or daughter were in a similar situation that you would apply your sick, mind-fucked, sense of justice rather than forgo mercy for them. You're a liar if you say you would burn them. Oh, right, they burn themselves...

[Vigile]

"Special Revelation" has already been given and is documented in the form of Scripture which you now possess and reject. Just like Luke 16:" 29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 “But he said, ‘No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”"

 

This qualifies today as your "special revelation". You get no more.

 

Your religion has turned you into a cold, heartless, unthinking fuck just like your god. You make me ill.

[Vigile]

Rightly punishing wrong. Rightly rewarding right.

 

Yet that's not what your religion believes. They believe that god has mercy on those he chooses to have mercy on. It also believes that the evil can be forgiven by slight of hand but that the good can burn forever for unbelief. Is unbelief worse than genocide D? In your fucked up world it is.

[D. Paul]

Play that over in your head a few times; it will give you a headache.  Good points Hans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This does indeed make perfect sense. But only in the world of the time/space continuum. Is this not a flaw in the argument? You speak of him as though he experiences today, tomorrow and yesterday as YOU experience them. The constant arguments that place God in the same realm as man have to go.

[Vigile]

This does indeed make perfect sense. But only in the world of the time/space continuum. Is this not a flaw in the argument? You speak of him as though he experiences today, tomorrow and yesterday as YOU experience them. The constant arguments that place God in the same realm as man have to go.

 

Yes, of course... god lives in a special magical place that cannot be seen or understood by us mere mortals.

 

Special pleading logical flaw D. Nice try.

 

Again, just admit you believe because you want to believe. Your faith can only be justified by pure unadulterated faith. Logic won't work for you. But then don't expect me to follow. Cosi e' la vita.

[D. Paul]

How in the hell is it just to forgive the worst of the worst sinners at the drop of a tear and on their last breath as life slips from their lungs but unjust to forgive me one second after death when all facts have finally become apparent (assuming they are)?  You christians have the most fucked up sense of justice the world has known.  And tell me that if your son or daughter were in a similar situation that you would apply your sick, mind-fucked, sense of justice rather than forgo mercy for them.  You're a liar if you say you would burn them.  Oh, right, they burn themselves... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why are you equating me with God? What "justice" or "mercy" can I show to anyone; son, daughter, friend or foe, at their death that determines anything? It is "sick" if the whole thing were as you wrongly portray it. But it must be this way for you. Otherwise you'd have nothing to rail against. But again, don't make me or yourself God.

[Vigile]

Why are you equating me with God? What "justice" or "mercy" can I show to anyone; son, daughter, friend or foe, at their death that determines anything? It is "sick" if the whole thing were as you wrongly portray it. But it must be this way for you. Otherwise you'd have nothing to rail against. But again, don't make me or yourself God.

 

Fine, explain how I have wrongly portrayed it.

[Guest queen annie]

Every Sunday and Wednesday for the first 25 years of my life.  Do I believe it?  I believe this is what christians believe.  I'm an atheist.  I think all of it's crap.  I'm merely pointing out the logical improbabilities. 

So you have the Truth about god at your disposal?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure. Why not? The Truth™ is available, and it doesn't belong to any one person yet it is something we all have a right to, and perhaps even a certain sort of responsibility toward one another in the same regard--it's pretty simple and can be described with a handful of 4 to 5 letter words that most everyone can spell.

 

In more sophisticated terms. on an personal level. it is basically 'self-actualization'--I think that's a term given by Abraham Maslow. It is ultimately manifested in the individual as reason, stability, and functioning in a positive fashion in every situation.

 

Simply described as a well-rounded, stable-minded and adaptable/adjusted happy person who is both mature (in the right fashion) and perpetually youthful (in a certain other fitting manner)--who lives neither in fear or in a way that causes insecurity or unease in others. A combination of all the human traits that the likes of Maslow, Jung, and Carl Rogers considered to be the benchmarks of ideal holistic human function and well-being.

 

It is what we all have the potential to be, yet it is rarely, if ever, an observed and understood condition of human existence. This failure lies in our tendencies to define God according to our own reality instead of aspiring to redefine ourselves according to a more noble scale (which might be also called 'divine.') Love, forgiveness (of self and others) and tolerance seems to be viewed as a worthless pursuit to most of humanity, compared to the more popular loyalty to strife, aggression, and detachment. That's why there is a malignant maladjustment dominating the majority of human life in this world--and it's all wrapped up in things and ideas defined with labels such as 'atheist' or 'christian' or 'freak' or 'idiot' which breed the despair and hate which is the only thing I truly consider 'evil.'

 

The only hindrance keeping the world at large from having the Truth™ at their disposal is a lack of desire for something considered to be of little or no value--due to the defamation caused by the misrepresentation of those who have convinced themselves they have exclusive rights to all that is holy and righteous-- that may be...

 

...as well as our tendency to be politically correct herd animals who view the slaughterhouse as the best possible scenario instead of human beings legitimately possessing the highest potential for harnessing the life that supports the cosmos.

 

It's total nonsense, IMO, because the easiest person to lie to and convince is one's self. And there is no excuse for any of us to buy into someone else's self-delusion--it's a puzzle to me why a person would reject the possibility of God while simultaneously confirming the validity of the very same hogwash that drove them out of the pigpen/church pew mentality in the first place.

 

Personally, from my own perspective, I think it's all crap, too. Including atheism. It's a damn shame that christianity is given just as much support through the opposite view held by most atheists.

 

Why must there always be some sort of pre-molded form to align with in order to define one's self? Is the only alternative to the ignorance of christianity a self-imposed similar state on the far end of the same spectrum? Both parties at either end scorn the other, and show their lack of empathy and short-sightedness with snorts and snide remarks. It's a damn shame, really--and it's all fixated (either in an irrational and useless manner or in a defensive fashion as equally useless) on an essential and shared misunderstanding of God because of stubborn denial of our spiritual natures which is just as real as our physical side .

 

I'm not trying to on you, personally--it's just that these thoughts that have been brewing for quite some time hit the level today that triggers the valve release.

 

I do feel some better, though... heh heh

[Vigile]

Personally, from my own perspective, I think it's all crap, too. Including atheism. It's a damn shame that christianity is given just as much support through the opposite view held by most atheists

 

I have nothing against self actualization and trying to better one's self both physically and emotionally. As far as self delusion, I am aware of humanity's, myself included, propensity towards the same. Taking a position of atheism does not in fact fall in the category of self delusion in my opinion however. I'm merely taking a position that no proof has been forthcoming therefore I reject the god concept until I have a reason not to. I do the same with Santa.

 

If evidence is presented to me, I will not be dogmatic in my position, skeptical yes, and I will examine the evidence presented me. The term atheism does, I agree, lend to the opposing view of theism merely by its use. We do not create a term for unbelief in Santa for example. The term is necessary nevertheless because of the large number of god believers in society. It is unfortunate that we have to make a distinction that we don't believe in unsubstantiated stories, but in order to have some level of understanding amongst one another we do have to make that distinction in certain crowds anyway.

 

If humanity's ability to self-actualize in some instances is enough to prove to yourself that we are not alone, I don't hold that against you. Personally I think there are natural explanations for this and other phenomena that are attributed to the spiritual realm. If it gets you through the day, who am I to stand in your way and tell you you're wrong and I'm right?

[Cynetix]

Why must there always be some sort of pre-molded form to align with in order to define one's self?  Is the only alternative to the ignorance of christianity a self-imposed similar state on the far end of the same spectrum?  Both parties at either end scorn the other, and show their lack of empathy and short-sightedness with snorts and snide remarks. 

 

It is human nature to need things justified or defined. You cannot easily represent a set of ideas without giving them a defining term. It easier to say that I'm an Atheist than to ramble on about how I don't believe in the existance of a god and try to get someone to see my point.

 

If I meet someone and tell them I don't believe in the existence of god, the next question out of their mouth is "Are you agnositc or atheist?" which in turn forces you to either a) define your set of beliefs or argue with them while they try to classify your beliefs for you. I've never had anyone just take "I don't believe in the existence of god" at face value, yet I'm expected to take "I'm a Xtian" at face value. The irony of this is that I know that "Xtian" is a label, yet is is very unspecific (i.e., all Xtians have differing ideas what a Xtian really is), whereas the lable "Atheist" is pretty self explanitory.

 

If people weren't forced to defend their beliefs, labels wouldn't be necessary. In a perfect world, there would be no labels. However, for there to be a perfect world, there could be no humans.

 

It's a damn shame, really--and it's all fixated (either in an irrational and useless manner or in a defensive fashion as equally useless) on an essential and shared misunderstanding of God because of stubborn denial of our spiritual natures    which is just as real as our physical side  .

 

If this understanding of god is so readily available, may I ask where is it and why is it that so many people that post on this site, post in disagreement over this very thought? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your representation of "god", which puts us back to square one, discussing the very thing you're disliking: labels. If I understand your post correctly, you're not talking about the xtian version of god, you are talking about what you believe to represent "god". Self-actualization, while a grand concept, is not enough to prove the existance of a god. Are you saying that you feel that through self-actualization, each one of us would be becoming a "god" ourselves?

[Ouroboros]

This does indeed make perfect sense. But only in the world of the time/space continuum. Is this not a flaw in the argument? You speak of him as though he experiences today, tomorrow and yesterday as YOU experience them. The constant arguments that place God in the same realm as man have to go.

So God is beyond logic and reason, i.e. he's illogical and unreasonable?

Would that constitute that believing in such a God is also illogical and unreasonable?

 

Besides, how do you know that God is omniscient and have free will?

Maybe he doesn't! Maybe he's limited, maybe he's bound to his own pre-made decisions?

You are the one that claim to know exactly how God is, and his character, not me.

I claim that you can't know, just because of the contradictions and paradoxes.

You claim you have the profile of God all figured out, which you have NOT!

[Guest queen annie]

Why are you equating me with God? What "justice" or "mercy" can I show to anyone; son, daughter, friend or foe, at their death that determines anything?

Simple and pure love would certainly suffice, I'd venture to suggest. Something like just holding their hand as they pass. Doing anything to alleviate the inescapable loneliness that is inevitable for even the most of prepared souls at that one moment common to every human soul--the moment of passing over the brief darkness of that threshold from one state of living to the next.

 

Mercy might be considered if there is any possibility the one passing has something that has laid heavy on their heart--some perceived injustice or offense that they regret (yet you might have written off long ago--the same love that causes you to easily forget is what won't allow them to let it go). Something like this requires an extra portion of sensitivity--which means that all thoughts of one's self must be totally set aside for the time. That, in itself, is an act of mercy--putting the needs of another before your own comfortable habits and thoughts.

 

However it might come to be, I daresay it's something that you can't overlook as being of little or no importance--the golden rule is applicable in every situation--and if you truly believe what the bible says you will recognize that it is a crucial thing for you to act with mercy and sincere generosity any time the opportunity arises.

 

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

--Matthew 5:7 KJV

 

 

But again, don't make me or yourself God.

What is it that you aspire to, then....considering that the words 'raving calvinist' are underneath your avatar?

[Guest queen annie]

IIRC, the number 7 is the number of Perfection and God, 8 is eternity, 6 is human... and other ones I don't remember.

 

It's all from numerology, and a lot of influenced from mystical kabbalah. One belief is that the number Pi is related to God somehow. (The perfect circle)

 

1=unity

2=duality/division

3=seed/loving-kindness

4=creation

5=grace

6=the point of transformation (the proverbial 'fork in the road')/death

7=perfection

8=regeneration

9=judgment (as in decision and discernment, NOT condemnation)

10=crown/accomplishment/fruition

 

I don't truly believe that numerology is a pagan idea (in the sense of being something the bible has borrowed).

 

I think numerology is a valid principle in every level of life--we use numbers to quantify and measure (basically we make judgments with them) but they are essentially unique and separate (what I call) 'vibrational energies'--at least 1 through 9 are unique and individual--beyond that I'm not sure. They're still important, but they may not be as fundamentally important as 1 - 9 are.

 

I perceive that they are the foundations of the physical world--they define and designate many aspects of its underlying structure, such as waveforms of all frequencies--which are manifested to us in various forms such as color, musical tone, and through tactile perception.

 

Numbers and math are something we can absolutely count on for consistent outcomes regardless of their application--the fact of the absoluteness of numbers is, from my POV, somewhat eligible as support for the idea of 'truth' being something more than an opinion or level of understanding.

[Guest dastywoo]

Which is it?  God is not all powerful or god is evil?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good insight! This is something our... um... less enlightened brothers and sisters like to over look in their "punishment/ reward" system.

 

Thank goodness for all of us, however, that there is no "Lake of Fire" where the "non-correct-choosers" will spend eternity!

 

And I suppose it is comforting to think of a loving God who is good all the time, but the truth of the matter is that even in Christianity there is no true devil other than in Christian myth. So the only power from which "evil" could come would have to be God. Now, I don't believe that God places evil in our life, only grace. But that "grace" doesn't always hit its target dead on and I suppose the absence of such grace results in lack of grace (or evil, if you prefer). Why does God not intercede and prevent "lack of grace", or keep grace from missing its "target'? I dunno. Guess I'm not fully enlightened yet... I can see my nirvana in the distance... But it's not God which allows for lack of grace in our lives. It's us. Why doesn't God fix that too? Then we would also be gods. But wait! That's the idea! That we be submerged in grace is the state of being "in heaven", "the Kingdom of God." I dunno... I guess God has some sort of reason that there be flaws to the system causing evil. That, or He's into S&M.

 

Peace!

[D. Paul]

So God is beyond logic and reason, i.e. he's illogical and unreasonable?

Would that constitute that believing in such a God is also illogical and unreasonable?

 

Besides, how do you know that God is omniscient and have free will?

Maybe he doesn't! Maybe he's limited, maybe he's bound to his own pre-made decisions?

You are the one that claim to know exactly how God is, and his character, not me.

I claim that you can't know, just because of the contradictions and paradoxes.

You claim you have the profile of God all figured out, which you have NOT!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When did I ever say I know "exactly" how God is? I have said God has given us sufficient revelation so that we may know Him. And He is made known through the person of Christ. Now for all your rants about the "atrocities" of God, all you have to do is look to Jesus. Did he commit such "atrocities"? No. Yet he says if we see him we have seen the Father. Since Christ did not act this way, your case against God fails.

[D. Paul]

What is it that you aspire to, then....considering that the words 'raving calvinist' are underneath your avatar?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do Christians not "aspire" to be Christ-like? But it is not the same as other "aspirations" in life. We didn't join a club, if that's what you mean.

 

As for the avatar...that was placed upon me, not chosen by me.

[Ouroboros]

When did I ever say I know "exactly" how God is? I have said God has given us sufficient revelation so that we may know Him. And He is made known through the person of Christ. Now for all your rants about the "atrocities" of God, all you have to do is look to Jesus. Did he commit such "atrocities"? No. Yet he says if we see him we have seen the Father. Since Christ did not act this way, your case against God fails.

You do claim to know the nature of God and his character. Granted that you don't know "exactly", but you have made up a very static and elaborate picture of him. And it has been constructed from other peoples opinion, and you have put your trust in people you don't know, to do this.

 

If I say that God will save everyone, because Jesus payed the ransom, and no one will perish, you will immediately claim something else. Totally based on you fixed conception of how God is.

 

What Jesus did or not really doesn't matter, since he never existed.

 

God's nature is not defined by Santa Claus having a sled and handing out free presents to nice kids.

 

It's your case for God that fails.

[Guest queen annie]

Do Christians not "aspire" to be Christ-like?

wow

 

That's kind of a hard one for me to answer legitimately... I don't know!

I've often heard that claim made--but there is an essential unity lacking; that I feel would be manifested by such a phenomenon--and yet I just haven't any evidence that even suggests that the concept of unity is valued or sought in

I think that surely it is impossible for any soul to aspire to Divinity through personal effort--simply because if we could do that, there'd be no discussions of this nature.

 

And I always got the impression it's more about paths, footsteps--bread crumbs that show the way out of death valley?....

 

We didn't join a club, if that's what you mean.

hee hee

I'm not sure if I mean anything--I'm still in the dark regarding intentions...

 

But what is a 'raving Calvinist?'

[Kuroikaze]

When did I ever say I know "exactly" how God is? I have said God has given us sufficient revelation so that we may know Him. And He is made known through the person of Christ. Now for all your rants about the "atrocities" of God, all you have to do is look to Jesus. Did he commit such "atrocities"? No. Yet he says if we see him we have seen the Father. Since Christ did not act this way, your case against God fails.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes...but then the gnostics win, obviously If Jesus is a mirror of God then the God described in the old testiment can't be the God Jesus is representing, per your argument.

 

You still have to deal with the OT passages, since (in traditional christianity) the whole arguement for salvation is bassed upon OT law. The only theology that I've ever seen get around this was from the Gnostics.

 

All your statement in that post proves is that the OT and NT are inconsistant.

[Guest queen annie]

When did I ever say I know "exactly" how God is? I have said God has given us sufficient revelation so that we may know Him.

BUT if the second statement is true--what's the meaning behind the first?

 

And if #2 is true, then how can we be here posting on a forum full of people who somehow were skipped over when 'sufficient revelation' was passed out?

 

 

something else..

 

I don't mean to get weird here, but I really have to tell you that your energy feels flat somehow--it's hard to explain. Like your vibrations are just on an endless monotone frequency. I've never felt such a thing--I don't mean to be rude with this--it's just odd.

 

Truly.

[Amethyst]

I don't mean to get weird here, but I really have to tell you that your energy feels flat somehow--it's hard to explain. Like your vibrations are just on an endless monotone frequency. I've never felt such a thing--I don't mean to be rude with this--it's just odd.

 

Actually, that describes quite a few fundamentalist Christians perfectly, although I'm sure this isn't the way you intend it. Most of them tend to spout exactly the same thing and don't give any new arguments. It's the brainwashing and the way Christianity (at least, fundy Christianity) makes people into clones.

[Guest queen annie]

Actually, that describes quite a few fundamentalist Christians perfectly, although I'm sure this isn't the way you intend it.  Most of them tend to spout exactly the same thing and don't give any new arguments.  It's the brainwashing and the way Christianity (at least, fundy Christianity) makes people into clones.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, quite honestly what I usually feel from christians is very palpable, it's a sort of hissing maliciousness that has sharp teeth.

[Amethyst]

Well, quite honestly what I usually feel from christians is very palpable, it's a sort of hissing maliciousness that has sharp teeth.

 

I feel that too, and I'm not the least bit psychic.