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Goodbye Jesus

death challenge for ex-christians


pug

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On the contrary...

 

I lose time, money, energy, peace, tranquillity, logic, reason, sanity and any form of accepting the consequences of my actions if I believe. (whether it's true or not)

On the other hand, I GAIN time, money, energy, peace, tranquillity, logic, reason, sanity and any form of accepting the consequences of my actions if I don't believe.(whether it's wrong or not)

 

Mind telling me how all that is "nothing"?

Come to think of it, Christianity is the ultimate in passing the buck... no matter what you do, it's all god swill gods will, meaning that it's never your fault.

Christian stands there having just killed 14 people:

"But God made me do it..."

 

:ugh:

Thanks C-T. You're absolutely right. I've realized that I actually lost certain things while I was Christian. My life has become better and more successful after my de-conversion. Somehow it seems that God only answer prayers when you don't believe in him and don't ask him anymore of anything. But as a believer, asking for something, you're guarranteed to get screwed. God hates the praying christian and punishes him in this life. So, no thanks. I'll do better on my own.

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Somehow it seems that God only answer prayers when you don't believe in him and don't ask him anymore of anything. But as a believer, asking for something, you're guarranteed to get screwed. God hates the praying christian and punishes him in this life. So, no thanks. I'll do better on my own.

 

You still pray? AND how are you so sure He has forsaken you?

 

 

Five Ways God Answers PrayerWhatever the answer, your best interest is always in mind.

By Luis Palau

 

 

Over the years, I've discovered from Scripture and experience that God loves to answer our prayers. Here are five of his most frequent answers:

 

"No, I love you too much."

 

The Lord of the universe isn't under obligation to say "yes" to every prayer. That's a good thing, considering some of the things we request!

 

But sometimes God says "no" to our most heartfelt requests. Have you discovered this to be true in your own life? I certainly have. When my friend Diane started losing her hearing. When my mother-in-law came down with polio. When my nephew contracted aids.

 

I would be known as Luis Palau Jr. if it weren't for the fact that God said "no" to my most earnest childhood prayers. Shortly after my tenth birthday, my father, Luis Palau Sr., contracted bronchial pneumonia and died ten days later.

 

Death became, to me, the most undeniable reality under heaven. Everything else can be rationalized and wondered about and discussed, but death is there, staring you in the face. It happens. Even to the most godly people. No matter how hard we pray. Why? Because we still live in a fallen world.

 

I've been reminded of this repeatedly since the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on America. Tens of thousands of lives were spared. But God said "no" to the prayers of thousands of others. Will good come of their deaths? I believe so.

 

Without a doubt, the death of my father has had more impact on my ministry than anything else in my entire life, besides my own conversion to Jesus Christ. My wish and desire is that people get right with God, settle the big question, and die knowing—like my father—that they will be with Jesus, "which is better by far" (Phil. 1:23).

 

Does that mean we shouldn't bother to pray? Just the opposite. Over the years, traveling throughout the world, I've discovered four other ways God frequently answers prayer. Believe me, he loves to say "yes!"

 

"Yes, but you'll have to wait."

 

Immediate answers to prayer: You want them. I want them. But God simply does not always work that way. And to get his best, we must be patient. In some cases, we must wait until the stroke of midnight for his answer to come.

 

Phil Callaway didn't know what to say when his young children asked if Mommy was going to die. His wife, Ramona, suffered horrible seizures.

 

Hundreds of friends and relatives prayed, but Ramona's weight eventually slipped to 90 pounds. Medical specialists tried everything, but by the fall of 1996, the seizures were occurring daily, sometimes hourly.

 

Phil rarely left Ramona's side. He wondered if she would even make it to her 30th birthday. One evening, when things looked utterly hopeless, Phil paced their dark back yard, then fell to his knees. "God!" he cried out. "I can't take it anymore. Please do something!"

 

Suddenly a doctor's name came to mind. Phil called the doctor, who saw Ramona the next morning and diagnosed a rare chemical deficiency.

 

Within a week, Ramona's seizures ended. Her eyes sparkled again. The miracle was so incredible Phil says, "God gave me back my wife."

 

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you" (Matt. 7:7).

 

"Yes, but not what you expected."

 

Have you ever asked God to use you? If so, expect the unexpected!

 

National Football League running back Sherman Smith, the "Sherman Tank," stood six feet four inches tall and packed 225 pounds of the most solid muscle you'd ever want to tackle. His reputation for bowling over defensive linemen raised his celebrity to near-cult status in the Pacific Northwest, where he played for the Seattle Seahawks.

 

Then, without warning, the Seahawks traded their most popular player to the San Diego Chargers. Everything changed overnight for this running back, whose Christian faith was as rock solid as his abs. He wasn't with the Chargers for more than a few weeks when he seriously injured his knee. While in rehabilitation, he wondered, Lord, why did you ship me to San Diego?

 

But while his knee mended, Sherman had the opportunity to lead one of his teammates to the Lord. That converted party-guy, Miles McPherson, has since become an outstanding youth evangelist who reaches tens of thousands of people each year.

 

Why was Sherman traded to San Diego? God wanted to use him, all right!

 

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight" (Prov. 3:5-6).

 

"Yes, and here's more!"

 

Ever wonder if the Lord really knows what you want and need?

 

Australian David Smallbone felt God leading him to promote Christian concerts in his homeland where only 5 percent of the people believed in Christ. When too few fans filled seats during one major tour, however, David took a $250,000 bath in red ink.

 

Creditors repossessed his home, and the father of six looked for work elsewhere. A top artist offered him a job in Nashville, so the Smallbones sold their furniture and other possessions and purchased tickets to the United States.

 

A few weeks after they arrived, however, David was informed that his position was "no longer available." He literally could not get out of bed for several days. When he and his wife explained to their children what happened, they all got on their knees and asked God to help them.

 

Interesting things began to happen. God provided bags of groceries, a minivan, and odd jobs. Then the biggest surprise of all—a recording contract for David's oldest daughter, Rebecca, age 15. She recorded her first album using an old family name, St. James.

 

Flash forward to today. David promotes his own daughter's sold-out concerts. Rebecca St. James has become one of the hottest Christian artists in America. Christianity Today magazine has named her one of the top 50 up-and-coming evangelical leaders under age 40. We love asking her to sing at our evangelistic festivals around the country.

 

All along—no surprise—God knew what he was doing!

 

"'For I know the plans I have for you,' declares the Lord, 'plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future'" (Jer. 29:11).

 

"Yes, I thought you'd never ask."

 

Many people think prayer is complicated. Actually, the simplest prayer can bring you the miracle you need, when you need it.

 

After a serious fall, an older gentleman named Luke Mulder prayed to receive Jesus Christ. He then prayed for his wife, Clara, who was visiting her sister in California. That very same day Clara heard a gospel presentation and trusted Christ.

 

Christian cartoonist Ron Wheeler dreamed of creating evangelistic tracts, but he needed a new computer. He found out what he needed and started to pray. Two weeks later, a friend called Ron out of the blue and offered him a new computer—the exact model Ron had been praying about. Shortly after setting up the computer, Ron received a phone call from American Tract Society asking him to design a whole series of evangelistic cartoon tracts.

 

My friends Esteban and Carmela Tosoni were driving one of the highest mountain passes in the world when their car broke down. They were 20 miles from the nearest town. The Tosoni family prayed for God to send help. When they opened their eyes, a mechanic appeared out of nowhere, asked if he could help, fixed their gas filter, then departed.

 

Coincidences? Hardly!

 

"The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective" (Jas. 5:16)

.

Luis Palau is a world-renowned evangelist, radio broadcaster, and author of It's a God Thing, Where Is God When Bad Things Happen?, and God Is Relevant (Doubleday).

 

Copyright © 2002 by the author or Christianity Today International/Today's Christian magazine (formerly Christian Reader).

Click here for reprint information.

January/February 2002, Vol. 40, No. 1, Page 11

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You still pray? AND how are you so sure He has forsaken you?

I can tell you never read any of my other posts. And that's a pity.

 

The answer is, no, I don't pray anymore. I'm still waiting for answer to my last prayer 2-3 years ago.

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Where do you think you will go after you die?

 

No, no...purely non threatening, just curious. IF you are a Buddhist, it's a long answer. No, i'm not a Buddhist ~ was. So... where will you end up? Or don't give a Foook?

 

Care to share?

 

Well I'll crumble away and my molecules will become a part of the earth. In a few billions years if I'm lucky part of me will go flying around in the cosmos when the sun swells and boils away the earth. Finally in a about 10^500 years if the universe continues expanding what used to be me will be floating around until protons and neutrons finally desintegrate and turn to energy and I become one with the sea of energy that'll be left of the universe. :) That's if the universe keeps expanding, else I'll probably be recycled in another cycle of expansion/contraction, heck I might be part of some star! That'd be cool. :)

 

DH

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Pray to a brick. The results will be exactly the same as if you pray to a god.

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Pug,

 

After making that post, I think it's only fair to let you know that you're about to get your ass handed to you. :mellow:

 

 

Hopefully, once everyone is finished, you will see that your explanation is a frail attempt to personify reality. There is no God behind your explanation. You've simply personified chance and coincidence.

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But What if you are wrong.....

what if, what you believe is wrong.

And there is a God and he had a Son, who died on a cross to pay for our Sins (lying, stealing, murder, adultery, etc.).

 

What if all these things are true and you come before God on at time of

Judgement and you are guilty (all our guilty) and you did not except his son's payment for sins.

 

I say this not because I want to you send me money or to drink 'kool-aid' or commit mass suicide and catch an alien ship in the tail of a comet.

 

You loose nothing by believing and stand to gain alot (if true)

But you loose everything by not believing and gain only this world (if wrong)

 

Ah, wake up and smell the Pascal Wager brewing in your Topic! :grin: Are you coming back?

 

DH

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I can tell you never read any of my other posts. And that's a pity.

Yes I have not. I'm a newbie here.

 

The answer is, no, I don't pray anymore. I'm still waiting for answer to my last prayer 2-3 years ago.

 

Only 3 years? I know of a pastor praying for 30 years before God answered him. And the prayer was not even for himself but for his brother.

 

I have had my prayers answered in less time. Get a grip ~ God is not your wish machine! :Doh:

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Pug,

 

After making that post, I think it's only fair to let you know that you're about to get your ass handed to you. :mellow:

Hopefully, once everyone is finished, you will see that your explanation is a frail attempt to personify reality. There is no God behind your explanation. You've simply personified chance and coincidence.

 

 

:wicked:

 

You are right ~ chance and coincidence ~ according to you.

 

:Doh:

 

The fool that I am... I believe it's God's will, generosity and love for me.

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Yes I have not. I'm a newbie here.

 

The answer is, no, I don't pray anymore. I'm still waiting for answer to my last prayer 2-3 years ago.

 

Only 3 years? I know of a pastor praying for 30 years before God answered him. And the prayer was not even for himself but for his brother.

 

I have had my prayers answered in less time. Get a grip ~ God is not your wish machine! :Doh:

 

Matthew 21:22 - "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. "

 

Not your wish machine? Not according to the Bible.

 

And, in case you were wondering, if someone waits thirty years for something, they bloody well didn't get it from praying.

 

Now, kindly get a grip.

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Only 3 years? I know of a pastor praying for 30 years before God answered him. And the prayer was not even for himself but for his brother.

 

I have had my prayers answered in less time. Get a grip ~ God is not your wish machine! :Doh:

 

Matthew 21:22 - "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. "

 

Not your wish machine? Not according to the Bible.

 

And, in case you were wondering, if someone waits thirty years for something, they bloody well didn't get it from praying.

 

Now, kindly get a grip.

 

 

OK wish machine but not instant, guaranteed wish machine. In His own time and will. Told you to read "5 ways He'll answer your prayers."

 

My bad, he did get his prayer answered. But only after 30 years. But the prayer was for his brother not him. The prayer was for his bro to accept JC. Err.. clear enough?

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Only 3 years? I know of a pastor praying for 30 years before God answered him. And the prayer was not even for himself but for his brother.

 

I have had my prayers answered in less time. Get a grip ~ God is not your wish machine!  :Doh:

You still haven't read my posts. :loser:

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OK wish machine but not instant, guaranteed wish machine. In His own time and will. Told you to read "5 ways He'll answer your prayers."

 

My bad, he did get his prayer answered. But only after 30 years. But the prayer was for his brother not him. The prayer was for his bro to accept JC. Err.. clear enough?

My prayers was not for a miracle. I was Christian for 30 years, and believe in God for 30 years.

My prayer 3 years ago was:

 

God give me faith.

 

That was too hard for him to answer.

 

**edit**

 

I don't mind waiting 30 years to get faith back. If God choose to not give me the faith I need, then it his own fault. If I die before he gives it back to me, then it was his will for me to be apostate.

 

Who are you to question God?

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My bad, he did get his prayer answered. But only after 30 years. But the prayer was for his brother not him. The prayer was for his bro to accept JC. Err.. clear enough?

 

And of course, it is impossible or highly improbable that such conversion happened due to a combination of life events, familiar guilt tripping, and a momentary state of weakness and fear of life's uncertainties. Am I right?

 

Your "ways god answers to your prayers" are worth nothing. Buddhists do miracles (ever heard of shaolin monks and their feats?), Muslims pray and (say that) Allah fulfills their requests, other Christian denominations do the same, Shintoists pray and they could swear to you that good luck charms work.

 

So as you see, prayers answered are not a prerogative of your god, assuming he exists, which I don't believe. Other religions get answered prayers too. That goes to show that, if you base your demonstration of God's existance on answered prayers,

- Either all religions are true, or

- None are.

 

All religions cannot be true, because the monotheistic ones assume that their god is the only one around, or the only right one. Which, if all religions are true, can't be so.

No religions are true. Well, since there are always rational answers and explanations to the things that you call God's divine intervention to answer our prayers, we could... you know, simply go along with this rational answers and explanations to our daily life events.

 

Which we do.

 

I think it's not that Hans thinks that God has forsaken him. Hans simply thinks that God does not exist. If God doesn't exist he can't forsake anything. It's that simple.

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You still haven't read my posts. :loser:

 

Han,

 

Sorry to learn you lost your whole family in a car accident. And unfortunately (fortunately?) you were the survivor.

 

I do not know why He chose not to give you the faith you need. BUT do you have to test Him and blame Him? Should not the faith be from the depths of your own heart?

 

If you die before He gives it back to you, then it must be His will for you to be apostate. And your family to go to Heaven...first? I'm guessing. I'm not God.

 

The question is: Who are we to test... not question God?

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Asuryan, [sep 24 2005, 02:48 PM]

 

IF Hans simply thinks that God does not exist, then, for Hans, He does not. So don't blame God or any thing or body for his misfortune or why because he had been a devout Christian for XX years God shouldn't do this to him.

 

It's that simple.

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Only 3 years? I know of a pastor praying for 30 years before God answered him. And the prayer was not even for himself but for his brother.

 

I have had my prayers answered in less time. Get a grip ~ God is not your wish machine!  :Doh:

 

And this is the reason that its quite futile to even debate the subject of prayer. Because it is so random & subjective, that you can ascribe almost any reality to it that you choose, whether it be chance, positive energy, God, or brick helping to fulfill your wish/desire/prayer.

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Asuryan, [sep 24 2005, 02:48 PM]

 

IF Hans simply thinks that God does not exist, then, for Hans,  He does not. So don't blame God or any thing or body for his misfortune or why because he had been a devout Christian for XX years God shouldn't do this to him.

 

It's that simple.

 

Not understanding what you're saying here eh.

Especially the "why because he had been a devout Christian..." section.

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Not understanding what you're saying here eh.

Especially the "why because he had been a devout Christian..." section.

 

Han had been a devout C for XXyears yet

 

1. God killed his whole family

2. God did not strengthen his faith

 

So he began to doubt the existence of God and is now a non-believer.

 

So why does he keep blaming God now? If he does not believe in God? :shrug:

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Han had been a devout C for XXyears yet

 

1. God killed his whole family

2. God did not strengthen his faith

 

So he began to doubt the existence of God and is now a non-believer.

 

So why does he keep blaming God now? If he does not believe in God?  :shrug:

 

I can't speak for him, but I can hypostulate that it's not so much a matter of blame. As for the actual reasons & why, I'll let him answer that. I'm just saying that you should consider that there's a lot more to the story than this itty bitty tip of his iceberg.

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Asuryan, [sep 24 2005, 02:48 PM]

 

IF Hans simply thinks that God does not exist, then, for Hans,  He does not. So don't blame God or any thing or body for his misfortune or why because he had been a devout Christian for XX years God shouldn't do this to him.

 

It's that simple.

 

:twitch: Huh? I've posted much more than that snippet.

However...

I could say to you "If you simply think that God exists, then, for you, he exists."

That does not mean that God does, in fact, exist. If unicorns exist "for me", they don't necessarily really exist. If Santa exists for my little sister, that doesn't mean that he really exist. For madmens in looney bins, lots of things exist which really don't.

So if you say that Hans, in his head, does not believe in an existing god, you must be ready to think that maybe, just maybe, you yourself believe in a god that exists only inside your head. :shrug:

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Han had been a devout C for XXyears yet

 

1. God killed his whole family

2. God did not strengthen his faith

 

So he began to doubt the existence of God and is now a non-believer.

 

So why does he keep blaming God now? If he does not believe in God?  :shrug:

 

I can't speak for him either.

However, if that happened to me, I can tell you that I would probably swear and curse against God (also because of a cultural thing, swearing is a tradition here! :lmao: ), even knowing that God doesn't exist. But my anger would be directed against MYSELF, not against God. Anger against myself for believing a lie and throwing away so much time of my life for nothing.

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Han had been a devout C for XXyears yet

 

1. God killed his whole family

2. God did not strengthen his faith

 

So he began to doubt the existence of God and is now a non-believer.

 

So why does he keep blaming God now? If he does not believe in God?  :shrug:

 

Pug

 

You haven't got it right, yet. Go back and read his posts.

 

I guess you have to read and think carefully before your next post. To me you begin to look like an insensitive evangelizing machine. And I do not like that, I prefer to discuss with real people made of flesh and blood.

 

Do you understand what I am telling you?

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:twitch: Huh? I've posted much more than that snippet.

However...

I could say to you "If you simply think that God exists, then, for you, he exists."

That does not mean that God does, in fact, exist. If unicorns exist "for me", they don't necessarily really exist. If Santa exists for my little sister, that doesn't mean that he really exist. For madmens in looney bins, lots of things exist which really don't.

So if you say that Hans, in his head, does not believe in an existing god, you must be ready to think that maybe, just maybe, you yourself believe in a god that exists only inside your head.  :shrug:

 

Then, excuse me, we'll have to wait until somebody can prove God's existence, ok?

 

Just like the time our forefathers do not believe that there were such crazy things like "electricity" or "gravity". Do you believe such invisible wondrous things exist now?

 

Then I'm the mad man ~ why do you wish to passionately convince me otherwise?

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Pug

 

You haven't got it right, yet. Go back and read his posts.

 

I guess you have to read and think carefully before your next post. To me you begin to look like an insensitive evangelizing machine. And I do not like that, I prefer to discuss with real people made of flesh and blood.

 

Do you understand what I am telling you?

 

 

Yeah i admit it, I'm insensitive unlike all you wonderful folks here. But I'm no evangelizing machine. Please. You all are more knowledgeable than me. I just speak my mind (do i sound like a fool? or a mad man?), not exactly a perfect Christian... just taking baby steps to walk like Jesus Christ.

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