death challenge for ex-christians

[Asuryan]

Then, excuse me, we'll have to wait until somebody can prove God's existence, ok?

 

Assuming someone can prove the existence of something that doesn't exist...

Electricity exists. Gravity exists. We know these are facts.

However, you do realize that the burden of proving God's existence rests on the shoulders of the ones that wish to prove it, right?

If I wish to prove that unicorns exist, it is I who have to show some good and believable proofs. It is not you that have to prove to me that they don't exist. I'm sure you will agree.

You won't believe in unicorns without proof. I won't believe in god without proof. (no, I don't believe in unicorns either )

 

 

Then I'm the mad man ~ why do you wish to passionately convince me otherwise?

 

Duhhh... maybe because you are inside an Exchristian forum? Maybe because you are inside a DEBATE forum? What the heck are you doing here if you don't want to debate your point of view, or if you get all defensive if someone asks you questions, for Danu's sake?

[Eponymic]

Yeah i admit it, I'm insensitive unlike all you wonderful folks here. But I'm no evangelizing machine. Please. You all are more knowledgeable than me. I just speak my mind (do i sound like a fool? or a mad man?), not exactly a perfect Christian... just taking baby steps to walk like Jesus Christ.

 

So, if someone is more knowledgeable, especially about the Bible, like Solo is, then how can you presume to tell him what he's doing wrong?

[All Gods Fail]

Then, excuse me, we'll have to wait until somebody can prove God's existence, ok?

 

Just like the time our forefathers do not believe that there were such crazy things like "electricity" or "gravity". Do you believe such invisible wondrous things exist now?

 

Then I'm the mad man ~ why do you wish to passionately convince me otherwise?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, eventually scientists proved to them that such things really existed, altho I don't think gravity was in doubt - even cavemen knew about gravity. No one understood how it worked, tho. They probably thought it was an earth god that made everything stick to the ground.

 

I doubt science is going to prove any god exists, tho.

 

And as for me, I could give a shit what you believe, as long as you keep it out of our science classes and our non-theist, Greek/Roman democracy, and in your church where it belongs.

[pug]

So, if someone is more knowledgeable, especially about the Bible, like Solo is, then how can you presume to tell him what he's doing wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I did not, do not wish, to tell him he is wrong.

 

I'm just saying if he doesn't believe in God anymore, fine ~ don't use Him to justify the abandonment.

[pug]

Assuming someone can prove the existence of something that doesn't exist...

Electricity exists. Gravity exists. We know these are facts.

However, you do realize that the burden of proving God's existence rests on the shoulders of the ones that wish to prove it, right?

If I wish to prove that unicorns exist, it is I who have to show some good and believable proofs. It is not you that have to prove to me that they don't exist. I'm sure you will agree.

You won't believe in unicorns without proof. I won't believe in god without proof. (no, I don't believe in unicorns either )

Duhhh... maybe because you are inside an Exchristian forum? Maybe because you are inside a DEBATE forum? What the heck are you doing here if you don't want to debate your point of view, or if you get all defensive if someone asks you questions, for Danu's sake?    

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I do not wish to prove to you the existence of God. I don't have the means.

 

Let's assume i discovered electricity but have no means yet to prove to you it exists. How? I'll just keep it to myself when such time i have the means, right?

[thomas]

I did not, do not wish, to tell him he is wrong.

 

I'm just saying if he doesn't believe in God anymore, fine ~ don't use Him to justify the abandonment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But wasn't it a response to HanSolo when you posted:

 

Five Ways God Answers Prayer Whatever the answer, your best interest is always in mind.

By Luis Palau

 

What was then the point in doing so?

[pug]

But wasn't it a response to HanSolo when you posted:

 

Five Ways God Answers Prayer Whatever the answer, your best interest is always in mind.

By Luis Palau

 

What was then the point in doing so?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Useful knowledge? (well, you will say useless) He said he gave up God cos He didn't answer him. Rightly or wrongly, who am I to judge?

[thomas]

Useful knowledge? (well, you will say useless) He said he gave up God cos He didn't answer him. Rightly or wrongly, who am I to judge?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So it is fine with you, that Solo does not believe in god anymore, but at the same time you wanted to give him some useful information.

 

But actually, the most stupid thing about this Luis Palau thing is, that he gives baby information for baby christians. Solo has for many years been, what your church would call a mature christian. So even from a christian point of view, the information you have provided here is useless, because it does not deal with what theologions do call "the problem of evil".

[thomas]

By the way pug. Did you become a Christian at a Luis Palau meeting?

[narcissist]

Ahh the old "(x) ways God answers prayer" routine. As though the infinitely powerful and complex creator of the entire univers can be reduced to some kind of sideshow amusement machine: "Step right up everybody, it's God! Just put your prayer tokens in this here slot for your chance to win one of FIVE amazing answers!"

 

Christians in one breath will boast about how refreshingly real and deep and intimate their relationship is with God, then in the next breath, they are reducing him to a 2 dollar peep show.

 

This is another reason I gave up Christianity, not because it is foolish, but because it is lazy.

 

What do you think God values more: The seeker who tries his/her best to serve Him, study him, try to get to know Him only to find out that He is to difficult to comprehend, to contradictory, to aloof, and gives up because he/she's exhausted, or the know it all who claims he/she can explain the whole complexity of God in 5 easy steps.

[Totallyatpeace]

Where do you think you will go after you die?

 

No, no...purely non threatening, just curious. IF you are a Buddhist, it's a long answer. No, i'm not a Buddhist ~ was. So... where will you end up? Or don't give a Foook?

 

Care to share?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Choice one: Heaven

 

Choice two: The Ground--- and it's all over.

 

Short answers, I know, but I thought after reading everything that has taken place in this thread................a long, drawn-out answer was not needed.

 

 

One last comment: Nicole Smith, how can you be so rude to people and be comfortable with it?

 

It boggles my mind.

[Ouroboros]

Han,

 

Sorry to learn you lost your whole family in a car accident. And unfortunately (fortunately?) you were the survivor.

No, I didn't loose my whole family in the car accident. They were injured. I have five kids, and four of them got injured.

 

I wasn't in the car, I was home. We were 3 Christians that prayed for protection 2 hours before i happened. I had been a deeply devout Christian for 20 years at that time. I had evangelized and gone on mission trips, tithing, never killed anyone, never cheated on my wife, never cheated anyone in business (even though I got fooled by many Christians and lost money that way).

 

My wife broke her foot and got a cast. She almost got killed during the following two weeks because they never took an x-ray on her chest to discover the broken sternum. It could easily have puncutred her heart, and she should NOT walk on crutches

 

My oldest son broke his spine and got his spine fused through surgery.

 

My next oldest son broke his spine too, and wore a body cast for a while. He almost got killed by the hospitals bad care. What saved him was that my wife had to fight against the hospital personal and make them read my sons chart. Because he had an anerysm in a major artery in his back and couldn't eat solid food.

 

My third oldest son broke his spine in three places and damaged his nerves in right shoulder. They made 24 life threatening surgeries on him. They totally reconstructed his intenstents. They removed one kidney, most of his bowels, big part of the pancreas, big part of the liver. He's paraplegic today, and need food being fed through a pump at night into his stomach. And this is just the beginning...

 

My oldest daughter had a little anerysm in her neck, and lost her ability to speak for 2 months. She was screaming incoherently to communicate, and that was most of the time except when she was sleeping. She refused to lay down, but had to sleep sitting up.

 

My youngest daughter was the only one that got away unscathed.

 

And all this was the beginning on a long journey through hell. We had more problems the following years too. This was just the big explosive start.

 

But I kept my faith for 8 years. I refused to loose my faith because of this. But the things that happened after this accident made me understand that God had nothing to do with the accident, and God couldn't have done anything, since he doesn't exist at all.

 

I do not know why He chose not to give you the faith you need. BUT do you have to test Him and blame Him? Should not the faith be from the depths of your own heart?

I had faith from the depths of my heart for 30 years. It dissipated by itself. I couldn't help it. It just disappeared. How can I have faith when I don't have faith? So when I was struggling and just needed God to show a sign, do anything that he wanted, just to strengthen my faith, he choose not to. God didn't want me to get one sign or give me more faith. If you call that to test God?

 

I don't blame God. God doesn't exist. There's not God to blame.

 

If asking God to give you faith is testing God, then salvation for any person is in FACT a test of God.

When you tell someone to ask Jesus into their life, remember what you said here. You're claiming that is to test God, and God doesn't want to be tested. Does this mean that no one ever become saved?

 

You're on a dogmatic thin-ice my friend. You're claiming every prayer you do is testing God. No wonder he never answers.

 

If you die before He gives it back to you, then it must be His will for you to be apostate. And your family to go to Heaven...first? I'm guessing. I'm not God.

Well my family didn't die, I'm sorry you misunderstood that part from my earlier posts.

 

What saddens me is that in the accident and in following years of further misfortunes, God never had to do a big miracle to convince me of his existence. He only needed to comfort me and once in a while give me guidance to do some things right. And many times I made the wrong decisions based on, what I thought was, God. But I know now that it's all my head. Faith, voice from God, etc all of it, just mind games.

 

Do you know that now, even if I'm an apostate, I still can speak in tongues? Isn't that funny! And it sounds the same as all the years I prayed in tongues.

 

The question is: Who are we to test... not question God?

Again. Is asking God for Faith to test God?

Where does faith come from if you don't have any?

Is then asking Jesus "to be born again" also to test God?

[Ouroboros]

Han had been a devout C for XXyears yet

 

1. God killed his whole family

2. God did not strengthen his faith

 

So he began to doubt the existence of God and is now a non-believer.

 

So why does he keep blaming God now? If he does not believe in God? 

Typical Christian Logic and doubletalk.

 

(and see my other post, my family is not dead)

 

I don't blame God because he doesn't exist.

 

I don't believe there is a God, so I don't blame a fantasy character. I don't blame Santa Clause for not getting a x-mas present.

 

 

But if against all odd, God DOES exist, he must be blamed for not answering the simple prayer of giving me more faith.

 

 

The reason why I talk about God as he did exist, is that it sometimes makes it easier to convey the message to a fundie christian. Since you can't possibly even remotely think the possibility that God might not exist, every sentence I write has to be applied to your world view and not mine. You have no frigging clue who I am, where I come from or how I think. Did you for instance know that we have cased Case Law, and that we have a personal letter from the President saying that he would pray for us? You know there's so many things I could tell about my history, but you jump to gun and get to a obscene conclusion before you have the facts. Your comment "So why does he keep blaming God now? If he does not believe in God?" only proves your ignorance.

[Ouroboros]

I can't speak for him either.

However, if that happened to me, I can tell you that I would probably swear and curse against God (also because of a cultural thing, swearing is a tradition here!  ), even knowing that God doesn't exist.

Actually I never got angry with God. And I never asked him "why" in one single prayer. The reason was that I already knew from start that there was no answer to why it happened. I wanted to accept the situation and I did. To be honest, it was the following years of events, after the accident, that gave me more cause to doubt than the accident. But those things I'm not going to expose publicly.

 

But my anger would be directed against MYSELF, not against God. Anger against myself for believing a lie and throwing away so much time of my life for nothing.

Exactly. I have no anger against God. But I'm furious that I was so STUPID to believe a lie and a fantasy for so long. I feel ashamed to be such a gullible and easly duped person. Not all my years were wasted, but I know specific situation that would have had a different and much better outcome if I hadn't had my head in the clouds and thought it was God guidance. If I had stopped and been skeptic I would have still lived in Sweden, with good economy and all my kids healthy. Especially I would still see Johan (my son) climbing trees that he liked so much.

[Ouroboros]

Then, excuse me, we'll have to wait until somebody can prove God's existence, ok?

If you don't, or claim that you don't have to, then we don't have to prove that God DOESN'T exist.

The ball is in your corner, not ours. We're in the EX-CHRISTIAN discussion forum, and we have made a clear statement what we believe, and you come and discuss with us.

 

You're asking us to prove to you why we think the way we think, from the opinion that because a priori you have some divine validation that only you have the truth?

 

Just like the time our forefathers do not believe that there were such crazy things like "electricity" or "gravity". Do you believe such invisible wondrous things exist now?

It was the skeptic mindset that found that out, and not religion. The people that questioned the old fashioned "Bible said it, so I believe it" attitude did those discoveries. People like us, not like you.

 

Funny that you're using you're using a reference to the people of your kind, to argue that we are like them, while you're not. You're just discussing a moot point.

 

Electricity has tanglible effects on things and can be proven to exist. Electricity doesn't escape scrutiny with a "Electricity don't want to be tested" clause like God. It can be tested, as opposed to God.

 

Gravity likewise. It can be tested, and its effects can be measured and valued and numbered. God can't, and God won't, he doesn't like to be measured.

 

Then I'm the mad man ~ why do you wish to passionately convince me otherwise?

I'm not trying to passionately convince you otherwise. You're the one that came here. I don't care what you believe. Or more accurately, you probably need to believe, and without faith you would wither down and die. It takes a lot of courage and internal strength to leave faith. Faith is just a crutch to give strength because you are weak. (According to Paul, "weakness is my strength")

 

Only strong people can give up faith.

[Ouroboros]

Yeah i admit it, I'm insensitive unlike all you wonderful folks here. But I'm no evangelizing machine. Please. You all are more knowledgeable than me. I just speak my mind (do i sound like a fool? or a mad man?), not exactly a perfect Christian... just taking baby steps to walk like Jesus Christ.

Understandable, I that's why I haven't bashed you or lashed out at you. I try to treat people the way they treat me.

[Amanda]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow HanSolo! I can only say that I feel your family is very fortunate to be having YOU as the one to be there with them through this! You have always displayed to me the internal fortitude, personal integrity, depth of insight, generosity of compassion and mercy to be the decisive pillar of strength to be helping your family see it through these hard times and still be coming out on top! Whatever you're made of HanSolo, I've always respected that... and I must admit, have been envious of it too. I wish I had a relative like you in my life!

 

It has always been obvious to me that you have the best of everything... and I'm sure anything you focus on with your family, or anything, will be bringing the best to the top... above what most people, like me, could only dream of having. My profound admiration to you and your family my friend, and I feel honored that I have had the opportunity to be able to touch a piece of your life in some way!

[Ouroboros]

... and I must admit, have been envious of it too. I wish I had a relative like you in my life!

In a way you do, I'm here.

 

Thanks.

 

And Amanda, you have my full respect too, because you have shown a true interest in understanding other people, regardless of their faith or lack of such, and that to me is a very impressive attitude.

[Caretaker]

I do not wish to prove to you the existence of God. I don't have the means.

 

Let's assume i discovered electricity but have no means yet to prove to you it exists. How? I'll just keep it to myself when such time i have the means, right?

I am sure you will eventually find a way. To demonstrate that something is powered is a good start. Oh, and, think lightning.

[Nicole Simon]

Yes I have not. I'm a newbie here.

 

The answer is, no, I don't pray anymore. I'm still waiting for answer to my last prayer 2-3 years ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Only 3 years? I know of a pastor praying for 30 years before God answered him. And the prayer was not even for himself but for his brother.

 

I have had my prayers answered in less time. Get a grip ~ God is not your wish machine!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Careful Pug, You'll raise the ire of Mr. Grinch -- resident misanthrope. He only ventures out to remind us Christians that we're somehow obligated to kiss his Grinch-like behind. Frankly, it doesn't sound all that appealing. But I'll turn my cheek, so he can watch both of 'em walk away.

[Checkmate]

Only 3 years? I know of a pastor praying for 30 years before God answered him. And the prayer was not even for himself but for his brother.

 

I have had my prayers answered in less time. Get a grip ~ God is not your wish machine!

 

Careful Pug, You'll raise the ire of Mr. Grinch -- resident misanthrope. He only ventures out to remind us Christians that we're somehow obligated to kiss his Grinch-like behind. Frankly, it doesn't sound all that appealing. But I'll turn my cheek, so he can watch both of 'em walk away.

Nicole, was that necessary or even called for? When did I insult or attack YOU? Was I even involved in anyone else's discussion? I've been politely speaking to pug, and hadn't said anything nasty to him NOR you. I'm sure that Puggie can handle his own business, and doesn't need Mother Nicky to wipe his bottom for him.

 

In short -- FUCK OFF, YOU BITCH! Go get laid or something. Anything. Just leave ME out of your fucked up melodramas.

 

(Remember, YOU STARTED THIS NEW PISSING CONTEST! I was busy being nice and minding my own business.)

[Nicole Simon]

Careful Pug, You'll raise the ire of Mr. Grinch -- resident misanthrope. He only ventures out to remind us Christians that we're somehow obligated to kiss his Grinch-like behind. Frankly, it doesn't sound all that appealing. But I'll turn my cheek, so he can watch both of 'em walk away.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nicole, was that necessary or even called for? When did I insult or attack YOU? Was I even involved in anyone else's discussion? I've been politely speaking to pug, and hadn't said anything nasty to him NOR you. I'm sure that Puggie can handle his own business, and doesn't need Mother Nicky to wipe his bottom for him.

 

In short -- FUCK OFF, YOU BITCH! Go get laid or something. Anything. Just leave ME out of your fucked up melodramas.

 

(Remember, YOU STARTED THIS NEW PISSING CONTEST! I was busy being nice and minding my own business.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Settle down, grandpa -- jiminies, can't you take a light ribbing? What if you were to really provoke me? Look ... I wish it didn't have to be this way, but, if someone (someone like You, cupcake) starts popping off to Christians by telling us how to behave, and how we're not following the Bible, and how Jesus (the Blessed Savior you're forever mocking) would not approve of the way we're acting-------well eh? Whaddya expect? A nice little peck on the cheek? I've seen the avatar: you're not gonna pile stupid on top of unsightly, are you?

 

It's a forum, cutie pie, so expect what you post to be read, digested, and spit back in your direction if need be. And it did. So, Grrrrrinch, next time you get all gleeful about Christians -- who also happen to be human -- getting emotional or, heaven help us, angry to the point where we offend your sensitive nature -- why not think again, and restrain your glee. Otherwise, you'd best be getting used to the smoke wafting back in your direction. Nicole

[Amethyst]

Choice one: Heaven

 

Choice two: The Ground--- and it's all over.

 

How about choice 3? I don't know, and I'm willing to admit it. Why does it have to be one extreme or the other?

 

Personally, I'm open to the concept of reincarnation, but I realize there's as much evidence for that as there is the Bible. Still, I like the concept better.

[Nicole Simon]

One last comment: Nicole Smith, how can you be so rude to people and be comfortable with it?

 

It boggles my mind. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What is it? ...a comment, or a question? ----oh wait! I get it! It's a really cute little rhetorical question. OK.

 

Hi to you too, Totally. Still openly airing grievances, I see.

 

Didn't we do this once before? And didn't you admit it would've been more polite to confront me privately? ...and didn't you feebly agree that you may have been trying to curry favor with your fellow members by trashing me? So who's got the real problem here? Why did you go back on your word? And what have I done to you, personally?

 

When someone, even a stranger on a board, drags your kid into a discussion---- look, can't you be objective----no, forget it. It's not even your business judging. You, of all people, should have a clue about that. The strife here is between me and the person who decided to take a shot at my parenting skills. But thanks, I'm sure everyone has appreciated you weighing in with your opinion in regard to my lack of 'understanding' and 'patience' -- Thanks ever so much for your assistance. What would God and I do without you. NS

[Nicole Simon]

Light ribbings are usually done with people with whom a relationship established. 

 

I see it was a month ago today since your kind and polite introduction  ...Are you PMSing or having a horrible period?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Okay okay ... maybe I need more bran in my diet!