how many will he say ths to?...

[Asimov]

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" (Matthew 7:22-23)

 

?

 

 

Well, according to other parts of the bible, works mean nothing, and faith in God and accepting Jesus into your heart is everything.

[Fweethawt]

You'll be able to see why He never knew them when you look at verse 21.

Are you saying that he didn't know them because they didn't do the will of his father?

 

Here's the verse that you mentioned along with the rest....

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Mythra]

Only to help you see the passage accurately. A lot of Christians get wiggy with this one, too -- the difference, tragically, is they turn and use the Lord's statement to beat people up, and it's the wrong people, their very own, presumably.  There's no need for that, and you'll see that once you 'see' what it simply says. NS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The preceding verses deal with false prophets, wolves in sheeps clothing, and "by their fruits you shall know them". Doesn't clarify a damn thing.

 

So, who do you think is casting out demons, prophecying in the name of Jesus, and attempting to perform miracles if not christians? Not a lot of people trying this shit except fundies.

 

Like the rest of the bible, it doesn't add up. Just a huge excercise in circular logic and twisted reasoning.

[Ouroboros]

Possibly.  But....nah.  Calvin was just as 'half-cocked' as the rest of the founding theologians of christianity.

Absolutely. Of course he was. It just the example how weird a dogmatic religion can become, when really looking at the evidence. I lost my faith, according to Calvin, that was my destiny, so who can blame God then, not me or anyone else. And no one can un-de-convert.

 

I see--you helped me just come to my own realizations, too--since now I see a difference in my own experience and that of an ex-christian.  I've never held christianity in any high regard and I am not technically an ex-christian because of that (I've never identified with that term, it seems like a 'bad word' to me, no joke).

It's a long story--but if anything else, you've done me a great service in answering as you have--and I appreciate your sharing your experience and thoughts with me.

Good that I could be to any help.

 

That's good to know, just because that means you're not closed off altogether--it is one of the most heinous crimes, in the annals of 'man's inhumanity to man', the way the insecure and overzealous religious factions have hindered peace of mind for the majority of the world.

I'm definitely not closed of, but if I gonna believe in something, then it be rather darn good argument to convince me.

 

I just want to tell you that it was a good thing that you got no sign--it would have been a false sign; the type of which has been the main fertilizer for christianity over the last 2000 years.  But I can tell you that I have had a sign--actually two or three--nothing I ever asked for, looked for, or (thought I) needed.  (and none of them involved tears, statues, virgins, apparitions, crackers, or even 'jesus-tacos', 'jesus-clouds', or 'jesus-cabinet-doors')

It's true. Sign of crying virgin marys and stuff, not good. Actually I didn't really mean a "sign" of that kind, but anything that God could do that would convince me that it was him. Even if the sign was that a stranger called the next second and told me that God asked him to call and confirm his existence, that would have settled it then and there. But ... still nothing. Not even a black cat crossing the road! Or a toad jumping out from the toilet. Nothing at all. Nothing supernatural and nothing in my head either. No voices. No inscriptions on the wall. No tongues of fire in the air. It's all up to him (if he exists, which I seriously doubt now, but hey... maybe he's just on a friggin long cruise?)

 

I have never had a problem believing (since I didn't come into that line of thinking through the 'witness' of christians or visiting a church one time for my first 'introduction' to the idea of Jesus) but when I received that first sign, I began to know.  Then a couple of other things happened to me and that 'knowing' became certain. 

 

Just know that the 'christian god' may be supported in the bible, but not completely--there is much conflict in christianity over the things which they cannot resolve into their manufactured god--but there is a definite entity called truth and/or Love and that is the underlying story of the bible.  But you will never ever hear it complete out of the mouth of a 'christian' because they do not understand it.  I say that rather arrogantly--but as long as there is the idea of 'hell' and a god who selectively and impetuously slings us around here and there, most likely to hell--I see no essential viable truth in the doctrine of christianity. 

Are you a Gnostic Christian or Mandean or so?

 

In fact, I firmly believe the allegorical representation of all the 'evil' in the bible is directly representative of religion, namely christianity.  The 'antichrist' the christian world waits for with bated breath is the very institution they live and breathe by!  The strong delusion, the mark of the beast--all of it.  It's christianity, plain and simple.

HEY! That's what I said in one of my other posts today! That must be a sign! If two or three agrees, then it's true!!!

 

I love this forum--I can say things like that and even if no one reads them or believes them, they still don't throw *tomatoes* 

Eh. No. We do throw tomatoes, even at each other all the time!

[Nicole Simon]

Are you saying that he didn't know them because they didn't do the will of his father?

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Clever you! So in the interest of time------cause we both know where I'm going with this, Why not go ahead and tell me that He is not speaking about they that choose to remain outside the Law of Christ, and that in your opinion (and I do so truly want to know why it is your opinion) it's not them, and if not, then Who?

 

Hey, thanks again, by the by. Creed? C'mon You can do better than that! Ask your son for some help

[Fweethawt]

Clever you! So in the interest of time------cause we both know where I'm going with this, Why not go ahead and tell me that He is not speaking about they that choose to remain outside the Law of Christ, and that in your opinion (and I do so truly want to know why it is your opinion) it's not them, and if not, then Who?

 

You'll soon come to find that I'm not quite as transparent as you've come to think I am.

 

Here is the verse in question:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Now, originally you stated that if we took this single verse into consideration that, we would clearly see exactly what point/lesson/meaning was being given in the following verses. (22&23)

 

From the way that it is worded, it seems to me that only those that "doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" are the ones who "shall enter the kingdom of heaven". Correct?

 

Within the context of the verses being considered here, I can not see where anything is mentioned about anyone who "chooses" anything.

 

 

Hey, thanks again, by the by.

You're welcome.

 

Creed?  C'mon  You can do better than that! Ask your son for some help

Hey! Creed isn't/wasn't the only thing that I listened to at the time of my gaining an interest in playing guitar. They just gave me the "oomph!" that I needed to get started. That's all. Tremonti ROOOOLZERS!!

[Nicole Simon]

Now, originally you stated that if we took this single verse into consideration that, we would clearly see exactly what point/lesson/meaning was being given in the following verses. (22&23)

 

From the way that it is worded, it seems to me that only those that "doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" are the ones who "shall enter the kingdom of heaven". Correct?

 

Within the context of the verses being considered here, I can not see where anything is mentioned about anyone who "chooses" anything. 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oops, sorry, I lied! What I should have said is: you'll begin to see -- you can't really see entirely til we determine what the will of God is (but don't you worry, I've got another scripture all lined up to do just that. . .in the interim, Note please, the phrasing, 'will of God' as opposed to Commandments, decrees, acts of God or nature for which people are waiting to be reimbursed by State Farm (good luck, they haven't paid off half the Californians from Northridge of '94), no ...it's His will ...only a desire, a wish that even He can't fulfill completely. And what is it?

 

My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6v40

 

So yeah, I guess one could refuse His will----although if it was made abundantly clear to a person, in no uncertain terms, then why in the hell would anyone choose to refuse a free pardon. Unless they weren't in their right mind, for which I'm sure they would be forgiven. Orrrrr, unless they'd never had a witness of the Spirit, the unmistakable stirring of God in their lives, to which someone can only say, 'I don't know but I know Something or Someone has come upon my house, that is to say what was my previously meager subsistence within a subjective reality called -- a life, but only kindly. So then what do they do? At that point the balls in their court. But really ...only the person and God Himself know if that's happened.

 

This is God we're talking about. To hear some of the posts------making it sound as if He was dangling a carrot only to snatch it away at the last moment. Really? How could anyone believe that? Bad teachers -- blind teachers, really -- promulgating a lie? Yeah, no doubt. (Plenty a that going around.) Crap for a dad fostering a poor and inaccurate perception of God. (Tell me about it -- nah, on second thought, you don't have to.) These, and probably even worse reasons, could all be cited as to why people have come to react negatively toward God -- the only problem: there are just as many people with an opposite perception, and compounding this, there are even some with no perception, adamantly claiming He doesn't exist. Keeps life cheery, doesn't it?

 

But if He were half the ogre some claim, wouldn't we be toast by now. And if we're not, it might mean He's not God, cause He lacks the ability to annihilate us. OR He might be doing what the Bible claims ...waiting patiently for everything to play out, waiting to see who 'chooses' to go with Him or without Him. If He interfered, well, of course there'd be no choice ...kill the devils and you kill the angels too.

 

Should I go get a rain coat? (When's the 'shit' storm start? LOL)

[Fweethawt]

Oops, sorry, I lied! What I should've said is you'll begin to see -- you won't see entirely until we determine what the will of God is. Notice the phrasing, 'will of God' -- as opposed to Commandments, decrees, acts of God or nature for which people are waiting to be reimbursed by State Farm (good luck, they haven't paid off half the Californians from Northridge of '94), no ...it's His will ...only a desire, a wish that even He can't fulfill completely. And what is it?

 

My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal lif, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6v40

 

So yeah, I guess one could refuse His will----although if it was made abundantly clear to a person, in no uncertain terms, then why in the hell would anyone chose to refuse a free pardon. Unless they weren't in their right mind, for which I'm sure they would be forgiven. Orrrrr, unless they'd never had a witness of the Spirit, the unmistakable stirring of God in their lives, to which someone can only say, 'I don't know but I know Something or Someone has come upon my house, that is to say what was my previously meager subsistence within a subjective reality called -- a life, but only kindly. So then what do they do? At that point the balls in their court. But really ...only the person and God Himself know if that's happened. 

 

This is God we're talking about. To hear some of the posts------making it sound as if He was dangling a carrot only to snatch it away at the last moment. Really? How could anyone believe that? Bad teachers -- blind teachers, really -- promulgating a lie? Yeah, no doubt. (Plenty a that going around.) Crap for a dad fostering a poor and inaccurate perception of God. (Tell me about it -- nah, on second thought, you don't have to.) These, and probably even worse reasons, could all be cited as to why people have come to react negatively toward God -- the only problem: there are just as many people with an opposite perception, and compounding this, there are even some with no perception, adamantly claiming He doesn't exist. Keeps life cheery, doesn't it?

 

But if He were half the ogre some claim, wouldn't we be toast by now. And if we're not, it might mean He's not God, cause He lacks the ability to annihilate us. OR He might be doing what the Bible claims ...waiting patiently for everything to play out, waiting to see who 'chooses' to go with Him or without Him. If He interfered, well, of course there'd be no choice ...kill the devils and you kill the angels too.

 

Should I go get a rain coat? (When's the 'shit' storm start? LOL)

 

You're probably going to be pissed once you read my reply to this monstrosity of a post that you made. The reason for that is, because I'm not going to let you run off like that, and I'm going to try to put the conversation back on course. That's why.

 

We were talking about these verses here:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

You said that that last two verses would make sense if we viewed them in context with verse 21. I supplied verse 21 so that a comparison could be made.

 

With that, we see that only those "that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" are the ones who actually get to go to the great church service in the sky, correct?

 

Just a simple "Yes." will suffice.

 

Yes.

 

Thank you.

 

Now, moving along, if we are True Bible Readers, we know that there is no way for anyone to "doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven", don't we? You are aware that there are completely conflicting/contradicting commands given in the Bible, don't you? This is what makes "doing the will ......" impossible.

 

Yes.

 

Thank you.

 

So, one can twist, strain, and reinterpret the bible to convince themselves that they are going to heaven when in actuality, according to the Bible, it is most inconclusive on this subject.

 

Some people explain this away by stating, "One can not know the mind of God" and, to that we say, "That's because there is nothing there to know. This is just a man-made book written in such a way that it justifies doing anything from being a good person to being a outright murderer for God."

 

So, when you come across a passage in the Bible that tells you to kill someone who doesn't believe as you do, and you CHOOSE not to kill that person, are you not choosing to be outside of The Law of Christ?

 

Of course you are.

 

I'll gladly reject those "commands" or "will of God".

 

If you choose to call yourself a Christian while choosing to be outside of The Law of Christ, you're a hypocrite by default, aren't you?

 

Yes.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Please, don't attempt to make it sound as though a believer is better than someone who rejects this garbage.

 

We widdled through it, and recognized it for what it is.

 

What I find more amazing than talking snakes, is the fact that someone like you hasn't come to the same conclusions.

[Nicole Simon]

Pissed? Me? Hardly. What's with you? You're talking to me as if we just met and you hardly know me. And besides, if I were to get pissed I'd lose my ability to tell you where to go should you need directions.

 

Okay. I'll be concise. To elaborate (and here I thought I was doing you a favor) is obviously a waste of space, in that you skimmed, missing all those 'pearls' (being at work right now, as you are, and doing this on company time. Nice. Real nice.)

 

With that, we see that only those "that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" are the ones who actually get to go to the great church service in the sky, correct?

 

Actually ...break it down, there seem to be some other things needed before Jesus says 'AmScray!' One such thing -- a real important thing, in so far as we're talking about admittance to Heaven and everlasting bliss: He doesn't want to grant access to workers of iniquity -- Verse 23. Seems reasonable to me. It's His Heaven.

 

So let's not make Him out to be capricious, that He's merrily dispatching people to the outter darkness cause they didn't follow the will of the Father. C'mon, read the post again. I tried to make it clear that God initiates this deal, He calls first, by His Spirit, it's up to the individual as to what they do after that little drama unfolds.

 

How about you? God ever come a knockin'?

 

Now, moving along, if we are True Bible Readers, we know that there is no way for anyone to "doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven", don't we? You are aware that there are completely conflicting/contradicting commands given in the Bible, don't you? This is what makes "doing the will ......" impossible.

 

Why? ...why would it be hard to 'look' to the Son? ...and to 'believe' in him? Why would this be hard after He pointed it out to you? And I'm not talking here about reading and trying to comprehend it from the Bible. You're not that smart. Nobody is. It's a matter of God 'calling' people forth by His will, and in His time, don't ask me why He does it the way He does. I'm not God ...only a goddess. (Alright Nicole knock it off.)

 

So, when you come across a passage in the Bible that tells you to kill someone who doesn't believe as you do, and you CHOOSE not to kill that person, are you not choosing to be outside of The Law of Christ?

 

Of course you are.

 

I'll gladly reject those "commands" or "will of God".

 

If you choose to call yourself a Christian while choosing to be outside of The Law of Christ, you're a hypocrite by default, aren't you?

 

Okay. Let me take a deep breath before saying, 'Are you on drugs? You're not on drugs, are you?' Look ...now it's you who's drifting. You're reasonable. You can see that, can't you? What is the Law of Christ? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul -- and the second command is like unto the first. Love one another. Where oh where do you read contract killing in that?

 

If I missed anything ... sue me. But don't make me listen to Creed

[Fweethawt]

missing all those 'pearls'

Oink! Oink! Now you're the "ween" for alluding to my being a pig.

 

Are we even now?

 

(being at work right now, as you are, and doing this on company time. Nice. Real nice.)

It's the only way that I can guarantee that I'll get something out of any conversation that I have here. Far as I can tell, this conversation is quite fruitless. But hey, I'm gettin' paid.

 

 

I have to start wrapping things up here, and I really don't have the time right now to reply to this post. Later on, when I get back, I'm going to reread all of our little conversation and try to understand where I went wrong and hopefully, I'll be able to come up with one of those things that we've come to call a reply.

 

See ya tonight, Hon.

[Fweethawt]

But don't make me listen to Creed

[Nicole Simon]

our little conversation 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Little? Ha! Exhausting, I'd say but really pretty enjoyable compared to our previous encounters. Later, then.

[pug]

That's exactly the answer I got.

 

I was losing my faith, and asked God to give me faith again, and then when it didn't come, I lost it all.

 

So God said No, when I needed more faith.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Test question number one: Do we rebelliously question what God is doing in our lives? Do we ask God such questions as, "Lord, when are you going to do this thing in my life? How much longer am I going to have to wait for my answer? Why haven't you answered my prayers, God?"

 

All of these questions, if posed rebelliously, are just the opposite of faith as they gender doubt and are questioning what God is doing in our lives.

 

If we have not surrendered to God, there are things that happen to us that are not His fault because we are in the devil's territory. The Lord does not mind us asking any question as long as we are asking it with a submissive attitude and not questioning His goodness.

 

Test question number two: Do we completely trust God and have our confidence in Him to the degree that when we don't see our answer right away, we wait patiently instead of taking the matter into our own hands and doing it our own way?

 

Do we have confidence in the Lord that He has everything under control, or do we worry and fret and let anxiety rob us of our day? If we trusted Him, we would believe His Word and not doubt His promises.

 

Test question number three: What about loyalty? Are we loyal to Him? We act sometimes as if God were against us instead of for us. For instance, when we have prayed and asked God for an answer to our prayers but have not received that answer yet, do we begin listening to the devil as he whispers these words to us, "God hasn't answered your prayers; He doesn't really care for you.

 

You know God has all power in heaven and earth so why doesn't He answer your prayers?" Instead of our being loyal and defending the Father, we end up many times agreeing with the devil by turning to God and saying, "Yes, God, why haven't You answered my prayers?"

 

Our devotion to the Lord should be one of defending the heavenly Father with a statement to the enemy like this, "Satan, I don't know why God hasn't answered my prayers yet, but I do know one thing; He loves me and my answers are on the way. If anybody is hindering my answers, it's you, not my precious Father."

 

Real faith has all the above qualities of total confidence in God, and complete trust and unquestioning loyalty.

 

Do you really have faith in God? In discussing faith we need to point out that it is not the quantity of faith that will accomplish the overcoming in our lives, but rather the quality. "...for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you" (Matthew 17:20).

 

It is not the amount of faith we have but who our faith is centered in. Jesus is faith.

 

If we feel we do not have sufficient faith to remove our "mountain of difficulty," we can always ask the Lord for the "gift of faith." This gift is one of the provisions for those who are baptized with the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 12:9). The Lord did not leave us without the tools to overcome our lack of faith.

 

We can simply ask God to give us the gift of faith we need for whatever problem we might have. As we are faithful to exercise our "measure of faith" that has been given to each of us, our faith will grow. Then we can believe God for greater things even without the gift of faith. However, if we need the gift, we can ask and the Lord will supply if our hearts are right.

 

Faith is not only a gift, but also a fruit of the Holy Spirit plus a part of our Christian armour; so we see the importance of it in our Christian walk (Galatians 5:22).

 

May we be spoken of as were the Christians at Thessalonica, "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

 

So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure" (II Thessalonians 1:3-4). Faith will carry us through every trial and tribulation.

 

Faith is really not that difficult. God made it easy. In essence, faith is just taking one more step with Jesus; it's believing God for one more hour, and because we do not give up on God, He comes through with our answers when we trust Him.

[scotter]

Pug:

 

Considering you said you are a "baby Christian", I must admit your post is impressive. And I try not to forcefully identify if it is a post of apologetics or a letter of a sincere heart.

 

Speaking my mind, Pug, it is easy for you to say, because it didn't happen to you.

[Ouroboros]

Pug,

 

You still don't get it. I'm sorry, but your own post doesn't explain away what happened, but support what I said even more. Or maybe you actually are saying that you agree with me? That when we ask God for more faith, we will get it. But if we don't get it, doesn't it prove then to you that God doesn't give it?

 

You wrote this:

It is not the amount of faith we have but who our faith is centered in. Jesus is faith.

 

If we feel we do not have sufficient faith to remove our "mountain of difficulty," we can always ask the Lord for the "gift of faith." This gift is one of the provisions for those who are baptized with the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 12:9). The Lord did not leave us without the tools to overcome our lack of faith.

 

We can simply ask God to give us the gift of faith we need for whatever problem we might have. As we are faithful to exercise our "measure of faith" that has been given to each of us, our faith will grow. Then we can believe God for greater things even without the gift of faith. However, if we need the gift, we can ask and the Lord will supply if our hearts are right.

 

Faith is not only a gift, but also a fruit of the Holy Spirit plus a part of our Christian armour; so we see the importance of it in our Christian walk (Galatians 5:22).

 

And compare the highlighted text above to what I said in earlier posts. Because this is what I DID!

[Ouroboros]

Pug, read the highlighted part:

 

That's exactly the answer I got.

 

I was losing my faith, and asked God to give me faith again, and then when it didn't come, I lost it all.

So God said No, when I needed more faith.

 

(Or the simple explanation, he never answered because he can't hear, he got no ears, no nose, no head, no mind and no existence.)

 

1. I was lacking faith

2. I asked God to strengthen my faith

3. God didn't strengthen my faith

4. So my faith kept on falling, and rapidly ran out of energy and power.

 

I don't know how you're SO blind that you can't see what I'm saying.

 

I asked God for Faith, and I didn't get Faith. The only answers to that is

1. God didn't want me to have faith

2. God doesn't exist

 

Which one you choose as explanation is up to you.

 

I'm pendling between those two options. And if God does exist, then option one is the explanation, which means the Bible is wrong in describing Gods character, since he DOES NOT give faith. But mostly I lean towards the second option, because it's so much easier to accept and explain.

 

Which ever way you see it. The Bible IS WRONG! The Bible God does NOT exist! A Divine Supreme Being might exist, but not the Judeo-Christian version, but then it would be a independent, not explanatory and non-comprehensive God. He's not omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent. Somewhere he has to fail.

 

God must be failure, since humans fail. He created a faulty system. So he's not perfect and he's not the bright, brilliant and intelligent designer as you'd like him to be.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Okay. I'll be concise. To elaborate (and here I thought I was doing you a favor) is obviously a waste of space, in that you skimmed, missing all those 'pearls' (being at work right now, as you are, and doing this on company time. Nice. Real nice.)

Why? ...why would it be hard to 'look' to the Son? ...and to 'believe' in him? Why would this be hard after He pointed it out to you? And I'm not talking here about reading and trying to comprehend it from the Bible. You're not that smart. Nobody is. It's a matter of God 'calling' people forth by His will, and in His time, don't ask me why He does it the way He does. I'm not God ...only a goddess. (Alright Nicole knock it off.)

Okay. Let me take a deep breath before saying, 'Are you on drugs? You're not on drugs, are you?' Look ...now it's you who's drifting. You're reasonable. You can see that, can't you? What is the Law of Christ? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul -- and the second command is like unto the first. Love one another. Where oh where do you read contract killing in that?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You know, I did all that for twenty years. I endured an abusive childhood while trying to be as loyal as possible to the one Father I BELIEVED would not abandon me.

 

God never came a'calling. Jesus never said a word. Not even when I begged them to over years of desperate devotion and need.

 

That fact alone nearly made me kill myself. I thought it was my fault. I thought God just plain was refusing because he DID NOT LIKE ME. (I was a kid). I was the sort of exacting Christian who would let people literally hit her, turn the other cheek, and refuse to fight back. I did everything I could to please God. It didn't end the silence or bring me a moment's comfort.

 

I looked to the Father, I looked to the Son. I believed in them, I served, I prayed, I had legitimate need and wasn't asking for much.

 

In short, I did the "leap of faith" thing with all my heart.

 

God didn't catch me. Spiritually speaking, I fell eighty stories, went SPLAT, and have never recovered. I live with the pain of that deep spiritual disappointment every day, and have only really started to heal.

 

What business do you have telling me and people like me to do the stupid thing and go take the leap again?

[BeccasStillSeeking]

*a lot of crap about how God didn't answer our prayers because we didn't have enough faith*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is bullshit. I was just as devoted as your "test questions" imply none of us were, and your god never did anything. I was an abused KID. I turned to God and Christ as my ONLY source of hope. HOW DARE YOU even imply that my faith wasn't absolute! If I didn't genuinely believe God was going to help me, I would have called CPS on my mother myself.

 

Twenty years of faith under fire deserves an answer. Even if your god was real I wouldn't follow him after that kind of betrayal.

[Ouroboros]

Amen Sister. Preach it Becca!

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Amen Sister. Preach it Becca!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*passes the chocolate* There ya go.

[Ouroboros]

*passes the chocolate* There ya go.

Passes the beer back.

[Nicole Simon]

You know, I did all that for twenty years. I endured an abusive childhood while trying to be as loyal as possible to the one Father I BELIEVED would not abandon me.

 

God never came a'calling. Jesus never said a word. Not even when I begged them to over years of desperate devotion and need.

 

That fact alone nearly made me kill myself. I thought it was my fault. I thought God just plain was refusing because he DID NOT LIKE ME. (I was a kid). I was the sort of exacting Christian who would let people literally hit her, turn the other cheek, and refuse to fight back. I did everything I could to please God. It didn't end the silence or bring me a moment's comfort.

 

I looked to the Father, I looked to the Son. I believed in them, I served, I prayed, I had legitimate need and wasn't asking for much.

 

In short, I did the "leap of faith" thing with all my heart.

 

God didn't catch me. Spiritually speaking, I fell eighty stories, went SPLAT, and have never recovered. I live with the pain of that deep spiritual disappointment every day, and have only really started to heal.

 

What business do you have telling me and people like me to do the stupid thing and go take the leap again?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Did He ever make contact with you? Did you have a real encounter with God? Or did you ascent to the teachings of the church or your parents at a very early age in life, without any real and tangible inward direction from God Himself. If He did indeed 'speak' to you, thereby eradicating doubt -- and then, after this, truly did abandon you, well whoop-dee-doo congratulations! You may have a real case against His goodness, one in which you'll be exonerated of all guilt and God will be condemned -- and all of us gathered here will be witnesses. But remember the question, did you have a real and genuine supernatural encounter with the Lord? Or was your so-called belief predicated on early teaching and the susceptibility of your youth?

 

Have I the right? ...the right to care and try to reach you in love ...well, God yes, I should hope so. Otherwise what kind of human being would I be. NS

[Mythra]

My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6v40

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Only one little problem with your reasoning, Nicole. (well, there's more than one, but one primary one comes to mind)

 

The first verses we were talking about were supposedly written by Matthew. In Matthew, we see that simply believing in the Son is never mentioned as being the will of the father and sufficient for salvation. In Matthew, we have a long long list of do's and dont's (don't get angry, don't lust, etc, etc) , and Jesus says that not one iota of the law is to be done away with.

 

It's only forty to fifty years later when the author of the book of John gets the theology fully developed, that the "will of the father" is simply to believe in the son.

 

Don't you find it curious that Jesus' words are so drastically different between Matthew and John? Was this even the same guy speaking?

 

Are you unable to see the writer's bias when observing these two writings?

[Ouroboros]

Did He ever make contact with you? Did you have a real encounter with God? Or did you ascent to the teachings of the church or your parents at a very early age in life, without any real and tangible inward direction from God Himself. If He did indeed 'speak' to you, thereby eradicating doubt -- and then, after this, truly did abandon you, well whoop-dee-doo congratulations! You may have a real case against His goodness, one in which you'll be exonerated of all guilt and God will be condemned -- and all of us gathered here will be witnesses. But remember the question, did you have a real and genuine supernatural encounter with the Lord? Or was your so-called belief predicated on early teaching and the susceptibility of your youth?

 

Have I the right? ...the right to care and try to reach you in love ...well, God yes, I should hope so. Otherwise what kind of human being would I be. NS

A friendly warning. Nicole, you might be taking on a bigger chunk than you can chew.

 

I'm not going to defend Becca, since I know she does it extremely well on her own, but I'm certain she was as true and honest in her search for God and her passionate will of knowing God.

 

It's dangerous to question how genuine anyone's intentions were. Maybe it was the lack of a supernatural encounter with the Lord is explained by the simple reason that there is no supernatural Lord to encounter? Maybe it was the supernatural encounter she was longing and asking for? How can you tell?

[Kryten]

Test question number one: Do we rebelliously question what God is doing in our lives? Do we ask God such questions as, "Lord, when are you going to do this thing in my life? How much longer am I going to have to wait for my answer? Why haven't you answered my prayers, God?"

 

All of these questions, if posed rebelliously, are just the opposite of faith as they gender doubt and are questioning what God is doing in our lives. 

If you believe hard enough, and have enough FAITH that whatever happens next is the will of God, then you can see that whatever happens next IS the will of God.

If we have not surrendered to God, there are things that happen to us that are not His fault because we are in the devil's territory. The Lord does not mind us asking any question as long as we are asking it with a submissive attitude and not questioning His goodness.

. . .

Our devotion to the Lord should be one of defending the heavenly Father with a statement to the enemy like this, "Satan, I don't know why God hasn't answered my prayers yet, but I do know one thing; He loves me and my answers are on the way. If anybody is hindering my answers, it's you, not my precious Father."

God is useless if he can't work because this is Satan's territory. You are in effect saying that Satan decides which prayers get answered.

I guess we see here who has the most power.

Do you really have faith in God? In discussing faith we need to point out that it is not the quantity of faith that will accomplish the overcoming in our lives, but rather the quality. "...for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you" (Matthew 17:20).

I prefer the one in Mark, which says...

Mark 4:31 "It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the soil, though it is smaller than all the seeds that are upon the soil..."

Actually, the orchid seed is smaller.

Faith is really not that difficult. God made it easy. In essence, faith is just taking one more step with Jesus; it's believing God for one more hour, and because we do not give up on God, He comes through with our answers when we trust Him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He comes through when you believe He did. Once you make a full mental commitment, everything that DOES come to pass is because God did it, and that which DOES NOT was either stopped by Satan, God said no, or you need more faith or more patience. As preachers like to say, you cannot ever test God or make Him jump through hoops or do parlor tricks. And that's a shame. Any display of power would be better than none.

 

I'm not attacking you, I'm trying to get you to see the circular logic of faith and answered prayer.