My Patriotism

[Ro-bear]

I am angry. I posted a comment on another message board that detailed my objections to what I see as coercive recitation of the Pledge of Alegiance as currently worded. My response was respectfully worded; no hyperbole. I'll let you judge for yourselves:

 

My problem is that children with worldviews other than monotheistic are excluded. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging our cultural heritage, but something as important as a pledge of allegiance should be as inclusive as possible. My children have this choice: stand and recite the pledge with their peers or go into the hall until the others have finished. No one, of course, does this. Since children don't like their differences to be scrutinized by other children, my girls, and who knows how many other children, choose to stand and recite words that have no meaning for them.

 

It is the coercive aspect of the Pledge that troubles me.

 

This is the angry response, practically a personal attack, that I received:

 

The "coercive aspect" of the Pledge...interesting choice of terms. A creed espousing the basic acceptance of being a citizen of the United States. God forbid we teach children the meaning behind it and why we do it but rather focus on "why it's bad and coercive". God forbid we promote patriotism and a desire to serve our country instead of ourselves. But then again what do I know, I've only spent the last 20 years or so "spending myself for a worthy cause" providing folks like you the blanket of freedom and security which you scoff at and take for granted. But you know what, that's my job...it's what I do and it's what I love...

 

I'm so tempted to put my opinion here of folks who have no business calling themselves "Americans" but I'll refrain as "I don't have to like what you're saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"...regardles of how ridiculous I feel it may be.

 

Signed,

An American Soldier

 

 

I was most upset upon reading this, but refrained from defending myself on the thread. I sent the gentleman a PM I can't seem to gain access to, but as I sent it mere moments ago, I can recreate fairly accurately:

 

Dear [sir]:

 

You seem to assign me characteristics that I think are not in evidence. I think your comment misrepresents me to the people of this forum. I am a patriotic American, and I am raising my daughters with the same love of country. I neither scoff at nor take for granted the freedoms defended by American soldiers. I respect and appreciate their personal sacrifices and the risks they endure on behalf of all Americans. My objection to the Pledge, as I think you know, are based upon one problematic phrase. Furthermore, I think you know how you would feel if your children had to recite a pledge contrary to the worldview you raised them to follow or be ostracized.

 

You have tarred me with your comment, and I have no recourse but to object in this personal message. Perhaps many people will believe what you have said about me. My comment was made gently and without malice. I know you have different ideas about what sort of church/state relationship is desirable, and you apparently also have a different idea of what it means to be an American. I regret that our diiferences have led you to cast me in an unflattering, and, I think, deceptive light.

 

Felix Qui Cautus.

 

Sincerely, Rob

 

I don't know how or even if he will respond. It bothers to think people might think less of me because this angry man has impugned my patriotism. Maybe he feels as bad about it as I do; I don't really know what kind of conscience he has.

 

I feel better for having vented here, and perhaps I can now help my children with their homework without seething inside. Thank you caring enough to read my lengthy rant.

 

-Rob

[Vixentrox]

I served for 17 years before being medically retired. I object to kids being forced to say the "under god" thing. I don't object to the pledge in principle becuase haveing some pride and fedility to your nation is not an aweful thing like some protray it. I do object to forcing the religous aspect of it on people though.

[Kryten]

Sounds to me like he misunderstood your objection. You apparently didn't specifically object to the words "under God" in your post. If he didn't catch the term "monotheistic", or perhaps didn't understand it, he probably thought you were talking about kids from other countries who don't have the same "worldview" as Americans. His response indicates as much.

[TruthWarrior]

My objection to the Pledge, as I think you know, are based upon one problematic phrase.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'm starting to think that this whole pledge issue is pretty damn petty. I suppose atheists need their own pet issue to complain about in public schools, just as christians need to complain of lack of school prayer (even though they can still pray). There's much more important problems in schools today then fretting over wordings of things and giving one's ideology or belief more or less of a boost. How about trying to stop bullying, the number one cause of school shootings? Instead you guys worry that your ideology is being persecuted... by one word? If it said "under Unicorns" you'd all be giggling instead of fuming. If god is as nonexistant as unicorns, why not just laugh at it every time it's mentioned?

 

Personally I think the whole think the whole thing ought to be removed altogether. It is unnecessary, has no productive value and is just plain old ridiculous, no matter how you word it. But if it stays, worded whichever way, so what?

[Ro-bear]

 

I'm starting to think that this whole pledge issue is pretty damn petty. I suppose atheists  need their own pet issue to complain about in public schools, just as christians need to complain of lack of school prayer (even though they can still pray). There's much more important problems in schools today then fretting over wordings of things and giving one's ideology or belief more or less of a boost. How about trying to stop bullying, the number one cause of school shootings?  Instead you guys worry that your ideology is being persecuted... by one word? If it said "under Unicorns" you'd all be giggling instead of fuming.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I wouldn't be laughing. Do you have any children? I do, and they must stand and recite or go wait in the hall like pariahs while everyone else recites. No kid wants to be different. They've already had little friends tell them that they and their parents are going to Hell because we don't go to church. Do you think I ignore bullying in the schools because this issue is important to me? I work in a school, and I feel that protecting minorities and encouraging diversity of belief is part and parcel of combatting bullies. I don't wish to vent on you when my anger is best directed elsewhere, but your comment seems a bit insensitive. I'm sure you didn't intend it to be so.

[Ro-bear]

Ro-Bear,

 

Spend that time with your beautiful (just guessing they are because of how their father looks) children and wife and that rush of adrenaline will be replaced with the joy that comes from your family.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Heh! Fortunately, my girls have my wife's looks and my sweet temperament! Thank you for your kind words and support, though.

[Thurisaz]

This is the angry response, practically a personal attack, that I received:...

 

He forgot the "Sieg heil!".

[bob]

I've only spent the last 20 years or so "spending myself for a worthy cause" providing folks like you the blanket of freedom and security which you scoff at and take for granted. But you know what, that's my job...it's what I do and it's what I love...

 

I'm so tempted to put my opinion here of folks who have no business calling themselves "Americans" but I'll refrain as "I don't have to like what you're saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"...regardles of how ridiculous I feel it may be.

 

Signed,

An American Soldier

It would be nice to know what this persons job description is. I spent 10 years "defend(ing) to the death" as a photographer in the military. There were, and are, millions in the military who never pick up a gun. Not to belittle the job of those who work behind the counter in the supply room, but come on friend, be honest. Unless you actually put yourself in harms way, you are not defending anything, you simply have a good paying job with better than average retirement benefits. I know. I have many retired military members in my family, some who did risk their life during war time, and some who never fired a shot except at the practice range.

It looks like this Nimrod had no idea what you were objecting to Rob. It looks as though he (she) assumed you were objecting to the entire pledge.

[Vigile]

Personally I question the patriotism of those who would quash or vilify dissent or dissenting ideas. Dissent is one of the founding creeds of our nation and a backbone of liberty itself.

[Japedo]

It is the coercive aspect of the Pledge that troubles me. [/i][/color]

 

This is the angry response, practically a personal attack, that I received:

 

The "coercive aspect" of the Pledge...interesting choice of terms. A creed espousing the basic acceptance of being a citizen of the United States. God forbid we teach children the meaning behind it and why we do it but rather focus on "why it's bad and coercive". God forbid we promote patriotism and a desire to serve our country instead of ourselves. But then again what do I know, I've only spent the last 20 years or so "spending myself for a worthy cause" providing folks like you the blanket of freedom and security which you scoff at and take for granted. But you know what, that's my job...it's what I do and it's what I love...

 

I'm so tempted to put my opinion here of folks who have no business calling themselves "Americans" but I'll refrain as "I don't have to like what you're saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"...regardles of how ridiculous I feel it may be.

 

Signed,

An American Soldier

 

 

Ro-Bear,

 

This is a typical nationalists attitude.  Nationalism has  never ever been like it is today in America, never before.  People in History  that had this sort of mentality were always considered dangerous to the American belief system.  First it is typical MO for any nationalist to denounce someone as being an enemy of that country if they don't march  blind  lock step, or if they step out of line with what's acceptable.  It is the same exact mindset as the people in Germany and  Mother Russia  had when Nationalism was at it's peak.  It's sort of a mob mentality peer pressure and squashes any sort of Distain, people don't like to be considered "unpatriotic" and therefore will sit idly by and say nothing or join the mob.  It is why dictators  can commit atrocity's, the people feel questioning government is equivalent to saying you hate your country, it's bullshit and people will Never learn from history.  They are  much like Christians they dislike any sort of Questions or distain applied to their perceived 'love', and it puts them on the defensive.  If this "American soldier" knew anything for what he fights for he would know it's not the "FLAG" he swears an oath to, but to the Constitution to defend it from Enemies both Foreign and domestic.

 

Beings though the guy seems to believe that children should know their history, I'm wondering if he knows his?  Is he aware that the Pledge was written by Francis Bellamy who was not only a Baptist Minister, but also a self admitted Christian Socialist?  Whom btw was also forced out of his Boston Church due to his Strong Socialist teachings?    His Cousin was Edward Bellamy who was a American  utopian socialists and wrote  novels about his utiopian ideas.  Any Free minded person will damn well know that True Freedom doesn't require public prayer and a public oath, this is the type of BS that Regimes require.

 

Tell the guy to put his opinion out for all to see, He's got a shallow opinion that is transparent and requires nothing but repeating Propaganda.  One could argue and question his integrity as well based on his Lock-step, lack of Independent thinking, anyone can repeat talking points, It's when you question those talking points they have the deer in the headlights look and they go into attack mode.

 

Always look at the other side of the debate, investigate  the opposition  like you want to defend it, that's how you'll find  holes in their thinking, and fill in the blanks that they conveantly leave out such as I did with the history of the pledge. It works most times I find. 

[Vixentrox]

My 17 years I never fired a shot though I did carry a weapon (M9 or M16) sometimes. I did witness a terror attack on our airfield once when a guy charged our tankers with a molotov cocktail. The Italian military who was responsible for security at the site ran his ass over with thier jeep.

 

On the other hand, I directly supported pilots with delivery of air tasking orders, handling thier crypto codes and also maintained the computers used to target Tomahawk missiles.

[Heimdall]

Rob, as a retired American Senior NCO, I take umbrage with “American Soldier”. Without the phrase “under God”, the pledge is indeed a “creed espousing the basic acceptance of being a citizen of the United States”, a nation that was founded by a collection of Christians, Atheists and Deists to be a secular nation. The addition of that single phrase “under God” totally undermines the secularity espoused by those wise men . We are a nation of many different religions and beliefs, some of our citizens recognize a single god/goddess, some recognize multiple gods/goddesses, some aren’t sure of the existence of any deity and some deny the existence of any type of deity. This is one of the things that has made our country the greatest nation to exist in modern times, we are the heirs of the British Empire and of the Roman Empire (not saying we are an empire) our religious freedom, like theirs, is what the has brought so many to our shores, usually to our betterment. It seems that the adherents of Abraham’s three bloody children (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are never happy if they can’t push their bloody-thirsty Hebrew Demon-God and his bastard get in our face at every chance. I originally thought the whole matter ridiculous, but have since revised my opinion, based on the Christ Cult’s reaction to the matter. Hang in there and stand your ground against this anal-retentive “American Soldier” and tell him that while you appreciate his efforts to defend your freedom, this freedom of or from religion should come with no strings attached – Heimdall

[narcissist]

I reckon it would not have made a difference how you worded it, someone, somewhere would have found something in your post to be offended by.

 

It seems that there are some people in the world who are just as fundamentailist in their nationalism as others are in their religion.

[Reach]

Sounds to me like he misunderstood your objection.  You apparently didn't specifically object to the words "under God" in your post.  If he didn't catch the term "monotheistic", or perhaps didn't understand it...<snip>  His response indicates as much.

Rob, I agree. Because you were making an effort to be genuinely respectful in tone and presentation, your real objections were implied rather than stated more boldly.

 

Jumping to conclusions, rather than read thoughtfully, he made an assumption about what you believe and gave you a standard, pat answer that is not worth your time. (This guy was also trying to defend himself and his own personal career choice.) As an editor, I have come to see that people are very lazy when they read and that's where this guy is typical of what I see almost everyday.

 

Good to see you satisfied your need to vent. ;-)

 

"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." --Bertrand Russell

[LloydDobler]

...this freedom of or from religion should come with no strings attached – Heimdall   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Quoted for truth.

 

This issue is just like the flag burning issue in a lot of ways. People seem to think that if they 'protect your freedom' then they get to dictate how you use it.

 

They forget that if you're not free to burn the flag, then the flag don't mean shit. I find flag burning distasteful, but I'm filled with pride that if I felt so moved, I could do it.

 

On a side note, Ro-Bear, don't take the criticism so hard, it's just people on the internet. Consider that they can disappear from your life at the flick of a switch, it makes it easier to not be so bothered by what they say. Not worth feeling down about.

[Thurisaz]

There were, and are, millions in the military who never pick up a gun. 

 

You talking 'bout me friend?

 

(As a logistics clerk in a German maintenance unit, I didn't exactly have much to do with any "real" military task... and our unit as a whole was kind of "the laziest unit in the whole of German 1st Armored division". If one single unit stayed in the barracks while the whole division was out there exercising, it was us - by explicit order of the division command )

[spamandham]

I don't know how or even if he will respond. It bothers to think people might think less of me because this angry man has impugned my patriotism. Maybe he feels as bad about it as I do; I don't really know what kind of conscience he has.

 

Well, no-one likes to be falsely accused.

 

That said, have you ever stopped long enough to question your patriotism?

[Ro-bear]

Well, no-one likes to be falsely accused.

 

That said, have you ever stopped long enough to question your patriotism?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure, spamandham, I've thought about it a great deal. I have long opposed some of my country's policy, both foreign and domestic. At times I have felt scorn for some of its leaders. So I've thought about it. I've decided I can and do and always have loved my country, and it is precisely that love that causes me to feel the way I do. I love America so much I want to take her back and make her better.

 

I have never had a seditious thought; I have only and will only work through the system. Complainers and dissenters can be patriots, too. Patrick Henry, Thomas Paine, and Thomas Jefferson would tell you the same thing.

[Ro-bear]

Quoted for truth.

 

On a side note, Ro-Bear, don't take the criticism so hard, it's just people on the internet.  Consider that they can disappear from your life at the flick of a switch, it makes it easier to not be so bothered by what they say.  Not worth feeling down about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, you are right, of course, Lloyd. It's easy for me to see that now, but when one's emotions are in play, things often seem different, out of proportion. That's why I rant here. A little sympathy, a little help cooling down, maybe even a challenge or two. It's all good.

[Casey]

I'd just like to say this Robear. I have no doubt if your country was well and truly in a hole and you knew it, then you would, if you were of age and fit, sign on and become as good a soldier as anyone else. So would millions of your countrymen and women, just as they have done in numerous past conflicts. History records that when this happened, much dissent and opposition to various things vanished like so much pipe smoke up the chimney, or at least, such things were put aside until the job at hand had been done.

 

Professional soldiers, whether they belong to "teeth" (combat) or "tail" (logistics) units, tend to forget one thing. "In peacetime, professionals, in wartime, amateurs". Certainly your man can say he has the honour to be part of a cadre around which a citizen Army would be formed if that should become necessary, but the irony is, if that happened, the Regular Army to which he now belongs would likewise vanish, would it not? It wouldn't be the same; it wouldn't be his Army any more.

 

One harsh fact of life therefore, is that at least in a democracy, it is the military which depends on the citizenry, not the other way around. Without the citizenry to bolster their numbers in time of real trouble, they are nothing. Another harsh fact of life is that the taxpayers pay their wages. Your man would do well to reflect on these things, would he not? If he did, he might come to see the wisdom behind this piece of advice: "Make sure your brain is engaged before you put your mouth in gear!"

Casey

[Totallyatpeace]

On a side note, Ro-Bear, don't take the criticism so hard, it's just people on the internet.  Consider that they can disappear from your life at the flick of a switch, it makes it easier to not be so bothered by what they say.  Not worth feeling down about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm eating up that little paragraph tonight.

 

Excellent words, Lloyd.

[spamandham]

Complainers and dissenters can be patriots, too. Patrick Henry, Thomas Paine, and Thomas Jefferson would tell you the same thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm pretty sure Jefferson would say we're 150 years overdue for a revolution, but that's him, not me.

[necrosmith]

Can you imagine the founding fathers, after fighting the war of independence, turning around and forcing people to swear loyalty to the government and god?

[euphgeek]

This quote always seems to shut nationalistic warmongerers up:

 

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.  Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy.  All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.  It works the same in every country."

 

--Hermann Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall at the Nuremberg Trials after WWII