Reality is meaningless?

[Guest Thesc]

I am not christian but I am religious so I have questions for you.

 

Have you ever wondered why reality exists? Do the things we see in front of us exist? Why does reality exist? When was it created? What was it before then? Is it possible to have no reality anywhere? Is it possible that somewhere out there there is no reality? We know that light bounces off objects and comes to our eyes so we see things, but why? Why does light move this way? What causes it? Why are the rules of the Universe this way? Everything science explains, we can say why. But most people never think about that, they just accept it for what it is.

 

What is life really? Why does life exist? What is the point of life? We live, we die, and in a few generations everything about us is forgotten. What is the point of such a meaningless repeating cycle? Where does it lead to? Is this why the Universe exists, to pay host to a pointless circle of eternal meaningless life which will lead nowhere and has no goal?

 

I hope no one starts flaming, at least be capable of civilized discussion?

[Dio]

Why does reality exist? That's like asking "Why is water wet?". Reality and existence are the same thing.

 

Do the things we perceive exist? Yes, and they would exist apart from our perception of them.

 

As for life and the rest, there is no point. If you or I had never lived, the universe would have existed just the same (minus us), and we wouldn't have been missed.

 

You ask if playing host to "a pointless circle of eternal meaningless life which will lead nowhere and has no goal" is why the universe exists. That's like asking 'Where is nowhere?' or 'Who is nobody?' or 'When is never?'. There is no 'why'.

 

That's my 2 cents. What's your take on it?

 

* EDITED for spelling *

[pandora]

Reality is practically unknowable, but I am pretty comfortable with the fact that we are experiencing it. It doesn't bother me, except when the philosophy texts offered some pretty good arguments for the theory that we are all a mad scientists experiment.

 

As for why we are here, etc... that doesn't bother me either. Perhaps there is no point. Perhaps some alien civilization will look upon us eons in the future and be amazed that we destroyed ourselves, or perhaps they will be amazed we managed to overcome basic animal instincts and made a community that is admirable. Who knows. I won't be around to know, so I don't waste too much time thinking about it. I am comfortable with the thought that I might cease to exist or melt into the emminent Life Force.

 

It wasn't always this way for me, I used to NEED a reason to live, to continue, to work and love. Christianity gave me that. Now it isn't as clear as it used to be, and since I believe that there is no way for us to know (at least yet) what all this is about, I have come to the conclusion that whatever is out there isn't too worried about making sure we "get it."

[Caretaker]

No.. I don't concern myself with that question. Humanity can speculate at best.

[I Broke Free]

The fact that reality is annoying is proof that it exists.

 

This fact also relates as to why humans developed speech; which was a deep seated need to complain.

 

IBF

[Ouroboros]

I am not christian but I am religious so I have questions for you.

Interesting. You're a deist or a naturalist or such? Welcome anyway!

 

Have you ever wondered why reality exists? Do the things we see in front of us exist? Why does reality exist? When was it created? What was it before then? Is it possible to have no reality anywhere? Is it possible that somewhere out there there is no reality? We know that light bounces off objects and comes to our eyes so we see things, but why? Why does light move this way? What causes it? Why are the rules of the Universe this way? Everything science explains, we can say why.  But most people never think about that, they just accept it for what it is.

Every human have their own little version of the meaning of life. Even Christians can't really agree to why, how and what about their faith. Why did God create evil? Why did God let Adam and Eve eat the fruit? Why is there so much diversity and hostility between Christians? Why do we ask why? Why didn't God, if he exist, tell us each time we ask why? Why is the question that we can't answer.

 

What is life really? Why does life exist? What is the point of life? We live, we die, and in a few generations everything about us is forgotten. What is the point of such a meaningless repeating cycle? Where does it lead to? Is this why the Universe exists, to pay host to a pointless circle of eternal meaningless life which will lead nowhere and has no goal?

Why does God create humans that he knows will sin and refuse to believe in him and go to hell for eternity? Why can't God see that is futile and doesn't paint him as a loving God?

 

We can't answer the question about the meaning of life. There is no answer. If the answer was given to us, we wouldn't ask the question. But since we're asking the question, it means that we don't know.

 

You can ask, but you have to learn to live with the unknowing.

 

I hope no one starts flaming, at least be capable of civilized discussion?

Hmmm. Maybe... ... only if you behave too.

 

Btw, didn't you know that us atheists are the root of the breakdown of civilization, so we're supposed to be uncivilized. Could you really expect anything else?

[Antihero]

Have you ever wondered why reality exists?

 

Because it can, or because it does. There need be no explanation.

 

Do the things we see in front of us exist? Why does reality exist? When was it created? What was it before then? Is it possible to have no reality anywhere? Is it possible that somewhere out there there is no reality? We know that light bounces off objects and comes to our eyes so we see things, but why? Why does light move this way? What causes it? Why are the rules of the Universe this way? Everything science explains, we can say why. But most people never think about that, they just accept it for what it is.

 

Most people never think that science can explain reality? Did you mean to say "Everything science explains, we can't say why.", or am I missing the point here? Actually, have you got a point, or are you just being philosophical?

 

What is life really? Why does life exist? What is the point of life? We live, we die, and in a few generations everything about us is forgotten. What is the point of such a meaningless repeating cycle? Where does it lead to? Is this why the Universe exists, to pay host to a pointless circle of eternal meaningless life which will lead nowhere and has no goal?

 

There is no point to life, it leads nowhere. There are no objective goals, and I don't see the need for them. Just because our freak-of-nature brains can conceptualise meaning, and feel that there needs to be meaning, doesn't mean there has to be.

 

I hope no one starts flaming, at least be capable of civilized discussion?

 

That's a rather arrogant thing to assume. Is that civilised enough?

[crazy-tiger]

I am not christian but I am religious so I have questions for you.

 

Have you ever wondered why reality exists? Nope Do the things we see in front of us exist? Yep Why does reality exist? Because When was it created? It wasn't... reality always has been. What was it before then? Before reality? Ridiculous question, since anything that exists is part of reality. Is it possible to have no reality anywhere? "Anywhere" is part of existence. Existence is part of reality. It is impossible to have somewhere that has no reality. Is it possible that somewhere out there there is no reality? Nope. We know that light bounces off objects and comes to our eyes so we see things, but why? Read here. Why does light move this way? What causes it? Why are the rules of the Universe this way? See the link I provided. Everything science explains, we can say why.  But most people never think about that, they just accept it for what it is.

 

What is life really? Life is life... Why does life exist? Because. What is the point of life? Life is the point of life. We live, we die, and in a few generations everything about us is forgotten. What is the point of such a meaningless repeating cycle? Meaningless to us, but not to life... Where does it lead to? Nowhere. Is this why the Universe exists, to pay host to a pointless circle of eternal meaningless life which will lead nowhere and has no goal? Nope... the reason the universe exists is because.

 

I hope no one starts flaming, at least be capable of civilized discussion?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Frankly, unless you start using some reason in this discussion, there's no point carrying it on... civilized or not.

[Ouroboros]

Thesc,

 

I have a question for you.

 

Why do you ask?

 

Before you try to figure out the answer to the meaning of life, first ask you why do you ask this question?

What is the purpose and meaning of your question?

And also, try to figure out what you mean with meaning and purpose.

 

What do you mean with "meaning"?

[Guest Thesc]

A long time ago I used to just take life as what it was and just not believe in religion, just took everything a day at a time. But, of course, as you grow older you start to question things. And these are the questions I thought. Why does this reality even exist in the way it does? And then I started thinking about what reality is if it's true there is no spiritual essence to the universe, which is basically a meaningless, pointless eternity of repeating life. Simple existence, for nothing. An eternity of simple meaningless existence.

 

Since this is the way I think, I would like to know what non-religious epople such as yourselves think.

 

Crazy-tiger's post is a clear example of what I was thinking about. Why is reality this way, he answers "because". He refuses to even question a bit this theory of the universe we are taught.

 

That's a rather arrogant thing to assume. Is that civilised enough?

 

I think you if you read the comment under a certain board here which reads "However, do expect very heated responses. ", you would understand why I wrote that.

 

Interesting. You're a deist or a naturalist or such? Welcome anyway!

 

I am just a freak of religion. I don't think any of the religions are right, I believe they are all paths to the same goal. I haven't officially picked a religion, but I have spent many years in the US, India, Iran and other places picking up info on religions, and I appreciate them all.

[MrSpooky]

If you are referring to a cosmological explanation, I've addressed a while ago that no, there is no explanation for existence because explanation by its very nature presupposes existence.

 

If you are referring to an ethical or aesthetic value-based explanation, again, there is no such content in reality. This is the problem explored by the existentialist movement.

 

One must recognize that many of the meanings we observe in reality are artificial. We see beauty in a painting because we interpret the matter of the painting in such a way. We see meaning in small signs and and occurences in life because we invent them.

 

In a material world, there is no such thing as meaning inherent to any particular piece because such things are purely subjective... they exist only in your head.

 

This was the conclusion that the existentialists came across, and it troubled many deeply. However, the second conclusion was that we are FREE TO DO SO. It's perfectly fine to accept such meanings in life... but one must remember that these are subjective in nature and hence one doesn't have the right to impose them on others.

[Antihero]

I think you if you read the comment under a certain board here which reads "However, do expect very heated responses. ", you would understand why I wrote that.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nah, I meant it was arrogant to assume the question was worth sensible posts and not flames. HAHA. Sorry, just feel like being an asshole today.

[Nicole Simon]

Even Christians can't really agree to why, how and what about their faith. Why did God create evil? Why did God let Adam and Eve eat the fruit?

Why does God create humans that he knows will sin and refuse to believe in him and go to hell for eternity? Why can't God see that is futile and doesn't paint him as a loving God?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

One of the byproducts of 'free will' is the ability to choose wrongly. What would you have preferred God do instead? Make humans incapable of choosing? Those would be machines, robots, automatons -- but not human. It's a bitch ...the free will thing. But give me an alternative and I'll call my congressman (er, woman, Boxer or Feinstein.)

[Ouroboros]

One of the byproducts of 'free will' is the ability to choose wrongly. What would you have preferred God do instead? Make humans incapable of choosing? Those would be machines, robots, automatons -- but not human. It's a bitch ...the free will thing. But give me an alternative and I'll call my congressman (er, woman, Boxer or Feinstein.)

Is it free will when God already knows the outcome?

 

Say that he knows that you are going to de-convert in 10 years, and he does nothing about it, because it was his intention from the start. If he knows it, why even bother to create you? There's no free will if we're predestined to become unbelievers. Free will is then only an illusion. Only if God doesn't know the outcome would the free will in combination with creating us make sense.

 

Let's say you're planning to make a machine to cook food, but you know beforehand that it won't work. But you're creating it anyway, because you want the machine have a chance to exist, and when you built it, and it doesn't work, you destroy it. What a waste.

 

God intentionally waste matter, spirit/soul and matter to create the illusion of free will, so he can have an excuse to condemn 99.99% of humanity to eternal punishment. What's the reason behind that?

 

The return of equity is totall crappy in such a project. It's not the kind of ticker symbol I'd look for on NASDAQ. Hence it proves God being very un-intelligent as a designer. Even his big "salvation" plan didn't work out either. Most Christians are not True Christians™ and are going to hell too. Only Frank(Croesus) and a few others will make it. God was/is a very unskilled planner, manager and designer.

[MrSpooky]

One of the byproducts of 'free will' is the ability to choose wrongly. What would you have preferred God do instead? Make humans incapable of choosing? Those would be machines, robots, automatons -- but not human. It's a bitch ...the free will thing. But give me an alternative and I'll call my congressman (er, woman, Boxer or Feinstein.)

 

And one of the byproducts of crappy apologetics is the presumption that human beings choose their objective beliefs.

 

Facts are not chosen, they are DERIVED. If God's existence can no more be proven than the existence of elves or boogeymen, how can one expect us to believe in God despite this lack of evidence and at the same time remain intellectually honest? If, hypothetically, a God who values honesty and truth existed despite the lack of convincing proof, how could he damn people for being consistent in their skepticism in the search for knowledge?

[Ouroboros]

And one of the byproducts of crappy apologetics is the presumption that human beings choose their objective beliefs.

 

Facts are not chosen, they are DERIVED.  If God's existence can no more be proven than the existence of elves or boogeymen, how can one expect us to believe in God despite this lack of evidence and at the same time remain intellectually honest?  If, hypothetically, a God who values honesty and truth existed despite the lack of convincing proof, how could he damn people for being consistent in their skepticism in the search for knowledge?

Amen to that!

 

God hides behind his followers, and let them make up the excuses why he won't show up and DO something!

[Nicole Simon]

Is it free will when God already knows the outcome?

 

Say that he knows that you are going to de-convert in 10 years, and he does nothing about it, because it was his intention from the start. If he knows it, why even bother to create you? There's no free will if we're predestined to become unbelievers. Free will is then only an illusion. Only if God doesn't know the outcome would the free will in combination with creating us make sense.

 

Let's say you're planning to make a machine to cook food, but you know beforehand that it won't work. But you're creating it anyway, because you want the machine have a chance to exist, and when you built it, and it doesn't work, you destroy it. What a waste.

 

God intentionally waste matter, spirit/soul and matter to create the illusion of free will, so he can have an excuse to condemn 99.99% of humanity to eternal punishment. What's the reason behind that?

 

The return of equity is totall crappy in such a project. It's not the kind of ticker symbol I'd look for on NASDAQ. Hence it proves God being very un-intelligent as a designer. Even his big "salvation" plan didn't work out either. Most Christians are not True Christians and are going to hell too. Only Frank(Croesus) and a few others will make it. God was/is a very unskilled planner, manager and designer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of course He knows the outcome. He's God. He lives outside the dimensions for which He created us to live in. Free of time and space, He would naturally be able to view 'the whole parade' ...again, what would 'you' (in your finite wisdom) have Him do differently?

 

Have you de-converted? And if so, by your choice? or was your hand forced? Be careful, you don't want to go the Dostoevsky route and say that God is torturing you like a 10 year old school boy pulling the wings off flies. If He really had it in for you ...you'd be toast already. I'm sure we can both agree to that. Otherwise He really wouldn't be God ...just a celestial version of, say, Howard Dean. A lot of big talk, with very little clout.

 

The rest is ...a lot of conjecture, really. How would anybody know the percentage of the populus that is going to Heaven? Even the Bible says there'll be surprises ... meaning, I'd suspect, that even some exchristian members might be there. And that'd be great. God loves nothing more than lively conversation. It's why we were created in the first place. John 12 v. 24

[Nicole Simon]

And one of the byproducts of crappy apologetics is the presumption that human beings choose their objective beliefs.

 

Facts are not chosen, they are DERIVED.  If God's existence can no more be proven than the existence of elves or boogeymen, how can one expect us to believe in God despite this lack of evidence and at the same time remain intellectually honest?  If, hypothetically, a God who values honesty and truth existed despite the lack of convincing proof, how could he damn people for being consistent in their skepticism in the search for knowledge?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'll respond ...though reluctantly. Let's try and keep the tone pleasant: try and come up with something better than saying my thoughts on the subject are crap. Otherwise, I'll move on. We'll both be better off.

 

Yes. Facts are derived. And when confronted with enough of them, everyone but the most die-hard skeptic eventually makes a choice. A choice based on evidence. If one wants to doubt, question, ponder, consider and yet reconsider for a lifetime. I guess that, in a sense, is a choice -- is it not?

[Ouroboros]

Of course He knows the outcome. He's God. He lives outside the dimensions for which He created us to live in. Free of time and space, He would naturally be able to view 'the whole parade' ...again, what would 'you' (in your finite wisdom) have Him do differently?

Since he knows the outcome, he also knows who will reject him, and he will know who never heard about Jesus, and he knows who will go to Hell. And he still let them get created.

 

Have you de-converted? And if so, by your choice? or was your hand forced? Be careful, you don't want to go the Dostoevsky route and say that God is torturing you like a 10 year old school boy pulling the wings off flies. If He really had it in for you ...you'd be toast already. I'm sure we can both agree to that. Otherwise He really wouldn't be God ...just a celestial version of, say, Howard Dean. A lot of big talk, with very little clout.

Yes. I de-converted. If you paid a little attention to some of my other posts, you'd know that I was Christian for 30 years. My deconversion was forced, since I lost faith, and asked God for more faith, and he didn't answer. If he exists, yes, he is responsible for my deconversion.

 

The rest is ...a lot of conjecture, really. How would anybody know the percentage of the populus that is going to Heaven? Even the Bible says there'll be surprises ... meaning, I'd suspect, that even some exchristian members might be there. And that'd be great. God loves nothing more than lively conversation. It's why we were created in the first place. John 12 v. 24

Is it conjecture, when we keep on getting Croesus and other "Christians" claiming that such-and-such and so-and-so are not True Christians™.

 

According to a plenty of the visiting Christians here, the outcome is:

Catholics are not True Christians™

Word of Life/Word of Faith is not TC™

Lutherans are not TC™

and so on.

 

You will end up with a microscopic number of TC™, so yes, 99% of humanity will go to Hell.

 

In one of the other threads, we already concluded that all Christians that are in Prison are not TC™.

And most of the 70% of the so-called Christians in USA are not TC™.

I've been accused of not being a TC™.

 

Most likely if you would be interrogated by other Christians in other denomiations, they will conclude that you are not a TC™ either. And so the story goes...

[Ouroboros]

I'll respond ...though reluctantly. Let's try and keep the tone pleasant: try and come up with something better than saying my thoughts on the subject are crap. Otherwise, I'll move on. We'll both be better off.

 

Yes. Facts are derived. And when confronted with enough of them, everyone but the most die-hard skeptic eventually makes a choice. A choice based on evidence. If one wants to doubt, question, ponder, consider and yet reconsider for a lifetime. I guess that, in a sense, is a choice -- is it not?

Yes, we make a choice, and mine experience was that God didn't want me to believe.

 

He decided in his extreme "intelligence" and "wisdom" that he would harden my heart, just like he did with Pharao.

 

God wants me to go to Hell, so who am I to argue.

[crazy-tiger]

Crazy-tiger's post is a clear example of what I was thinking about.  Why is reality this way, he answers "because".  He refuses to even question a bit this theory of the universe we are taught.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, I'll go a little more depth into it...

 

Reality is the way it is because if it was any other way, you wouldn't be able to ask the question.

 

There was nothing before reality since reality IS existence and anything before existence does not exist, by definition.

 

It is not possible to have anywhere outside of reality, since it would be outside existence and, therefore, wouldn't exist.

 

Why does reality exist is the same type of question as "which would you rather be or a wasp?"

It's a nonsense question.

 

What is life, why does life exist, and what is the point of life are all good questions, but since the point of life is simply to be, then why life exists is simply because it exists, and what life is, is life...

 

Life is only meaningless to us... More specifically, those of us who are unable to accept that life is a reason to live.

 

Life leads nowhere, but that doesn't mean that WE can't lead life. (but you didn't ask that, did you?)

 

The reason the universe exists is because the universe exists, the reason life seems meaningless and has no goal is because you cannot accept that to live IS the meaning and the goal.

 

 

 

What you're after is a SPIRITUAL reason for reality... I'm sorry but I'm fresh out of comfort blankets so all I can give you is a dose of cold, hard truth.

 

If that upsets you, deal with it... at least I was civilized and refrained from flaming you.

[Ouroboros]

Basically, the meaning of life is to live and ask the question about the meaning of life.

[Nicole Simon]

Most likely if you would be interrogated by other Christians in other denomiations, they will conclude that you are not a TC either. And so the story goes...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Bwahahahahaha! Thank goodness I don't have to ever be interrogated by fellow Christians. Wouldn't that be dreadful? I'm sure it would. No. God is the final and fair arbiter. And I'm so pleased He is.

 

As for the other stuff, Han, I think I mentioned that I had my fair share (although most, even Christians, would say it was more than my share of misfortune), and if you'd ever want to compare lists, I'd be happy to do so. But only in private. It's of no one's concern, really. I only want you to know I'm not unfeeling or uncaring as to your plight. But unless you can give me irrefutable proof that He was behind and orchestrating the misfortune, well, I'd say it's better to just move on. I'm sure there are some good things left, aren't there. Love, NS

[Ouroboros]

As for the other stuff, Han, I think I mentioned that I had my fair share (although most, even Christians, would say it was more than my share of misfortune), and if you'd ever want to compare lists, I'd be happy to do so. But only in private. It's of no one's concern, really. I only want you to know I'm not unfeeling or uncaring as to your plight. But unless you can give me irrefutable proof that He was behind and orchestrating the misfortune, well, I'd say it's better to just move on. I'm sure there are some good things left, aren't there. Love, NS

Don't get me wrong. I have no fight with you. And sure, we could compare lists.

 

The thing is that I really don't think God was behind what happened. But he wasn't behind making it not happen either, after three spirit filled and believing Christians prayed for protection. God didn't have to make a miracle happen, he only needed to delay the start just a few seconds, or had the driver slow down just a little, or made the driver of one of the trucks wake up before he crashed into the other truck, or he could have made one of the truck drivers think of setting out flares, or he could have ... There was plenty of opportunities for God to show his powers.

 

You know situations where people are saved in the last minute from a terrible disaster, and then religious people say it was Gods protection? That didn't happen here. God didn't care for protection.

 

And with the years that went on, I prayed for help on many areas to be able to handle the financial burden it was to have a handicapped child, and God again never gave me the slightest hint that I did something right or wrong. My problem was that I trusted God to talk to me and tell me what to do, and I thought God could change our life. I honestly thought that God could speak to me or my wife, and I thought everything would work out for the best. But my situation didn't change until I took care of things and stopped fantasize about Gods help. I saw that my destiny was only in my hands and not in Gods. The good outcome from the situation was that I lost my faith. That was the plan from start. I really didn't want to, but I couldn't live a delusional life anymore.

[Guest Thesc]

What you're after is a SPIRITUAL reason for reality... I'm sorry but I'm fresh out of comfort blankets so all I can give you is a dose of cold, hard truth.

 

Yeah.....right....

 

I don't believe reality is simply a random and hollow, pointless, eternal meaningless cycle of life and death. Putting deities aside, I believe that there must be some spiritual backbone to reality because of this.

 

By what you're saying, life and reality is indeed simply a pointless circle. It will go on forever, and nothing will be accomplished or done. We will simply exist. We can all live our lives to the fullest - but then it will be a moot point because when we die it will all be gone and our lives will be forgotten within a hundred years. And that will repeat, repeat, repeat. Just exist, that's it, for no apparent purpose.

 

I mean, if you really don't start to question that, well, It's okay I guess...