EASIER to be an EX-C?

[pug]

Unlike most of you folks I was not born into a Christian environment/culture. I was born into a Buddhist family in an Islamic country (Malaysia ~ we do have "freedom" of religion. But no churches and temples are allowed to be built after 1957, our independence from the British colonists). And I was baptised in the Holy Spirit very late in life (49 years old).

 

Truly I tell you, before then I would bolt when I so much as sniff an evangelizing machine heading my way.

 

After reading all your posts... well, interesting. And IMHO, I believe it's still much, much easier to be an atheist or agnostic or god-less.

 

Harder to tell true Christians from the fanatics, Mormons, Jehovah witnesses. Roman Catholics... ahhhh, still not sure about them. And so many denominations. What gives?

 

Harder still to be a good Christian? Easier to be Ex-C?

[Guest Gothicrip]

Most definately easier to be athiest, no more songs about bathing in blood for me.

[scotter]

Suppose a Catholic tells you, “Harder still to be Catholic? IMHO, It is easier to be a Protestant Christian.”

 

Not that I believe the Catholic would generalize (evangelical) Protestantism in this way, but hey Pug, you know how you became a evangelical/Protestant Christian with experiences that are irrelevant to the “hard/easy Catholicism/Protestantism” framework.

 

Religious or life experience cannot be simply summarized as dualistic "hard vs easy---Christian vs non-Christian".

[Alice]

Leaving my faith has been one of the hardest things I've ever done.

 

Life isn't easy - so I'm not saying it was easy to be a christian. My life as a christian came with it's fair share of struggles and difficulties. Christianity posed challenges for me in terms of the way I tackled aspects of my personality that God said needed refining.

 

Strange thing is those challenges and struggles have remained. Truth is - although I spent so long hesitating and questioning and fearing life outside my church family - my day to day life has not really changed at all.

 

Sometimes I struggle with my realisation now - that I have to 'lean on my own understanding' and when I'm facing such a struggle I sometimes tell myself - 'life was easier when you relied on god'. But this is looking back through a rose tinted filter and I have to remind myself that as a christian I often struggled when told to 'lean on God'. I struggled because he was not there to support me - however much I wished for him to be there.

 

I would so love for there to be a good and loving god who would battle alongside me to make the world a better place, who had some wonderful plan for my life, so that on my tired days I could just hang up my hat and know he was going to take care of me. But I guess there isn't.

 

I find the concept of life being harder or easier with or without a belief in god a difficult one to grasp.

[thomas]

Harder still to be a good Christian? Easier to be Ex-C?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Right, and the hardest thing about being a Christian is when you begin to discover, that your faith is build on lies and manipulation.

[narcissist]

Yeah, you're right. It's easier.

 

My mind no longer has to try to accomodate all the contradictions Christians teach me,

 

I no longer feel abandoned by members of the clergy who are too preoccupied with their own political ambitions to care about my sincere questions,

 

I no longer feel guilty for my church judging certain people in society for not obeying some of God's laws whilst it positively encourages its own flock to not obey other laws of God.

 

The list goes on.

 

Sure, it may be hard to be Christian in a predominantly Muslim nation like Malaysia, but in places like Australia and the US, the shoe is on the other foot, so to speak, where being a Christian is just soooo easy and politicaly advisable, whilst being a Muslim becomes not just hard, but a risk to your life and liberty.

[Totallyatpeace]

Life isn't easy - so I'm not saying it was easy to be a christian. My life as a christian came with it's fair share of struggles and difficulties. Christianity posed challenges for me in terms of the way I tackled aspects of my personality that God said needed refining.

 

Strange thing is those challenges and struggles have remained. Truth is - although I spent so long hesitating and questioning and fearing life outside my church family - my day to day life has not really changed at all.

 

I find the concept of life being harder or easier with or without a belief in god a difficult one to grasp.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hesitent~

 

Once again, your thoughtful and very transparent post leaves me thinking. You and I seem to be so very similar in the sense that we seem to struggle with some of the same thoughts, but from opposite sides.

 

I would so love for there to be a good and loving god who would battle alongside me to make the world a better place, who had some wonderful plan for my life, so that on my tired days I could just hang up my hat and know he was going to take care of me.

 

I still believe he does this.

 

But there are many times I feel it would be so much easier to not believe.

[Amethyst]

I don't think it is easier. Imagine living on an alien planet where everyone worshipped the Invisible Pink Unicorn, and you were the only one who did not believe. Now imagine the aliens thought you were evil, horrible, terrible, and deserving of torture for all of eternity simply because you didn't believe in the IPU. Now imagine the leader of the aliens says that anyone who doesn't believe in the IPU isn't worthy of citizenship. And imagine that they keep trying to get you to join the IPU cult, even though you have said no resoundingly many times.

 

Also imagine that you are ostracized and treated like dirt just for telling people around you that you don't believe in the IPU because there is no proof of its existence. Even if you keep your mouth shut most of the time and are only honest when they ask you directly, they still treat you like shit.

 

Easier? No. But at least, I'm not brainwashed anymore.

[Ouroboros]

Pug,

 

It was not easy to loose my faith. I didn't want to, it practically dissipated and there were no more emotions to support it.

 

When the plug was pulled, it was a very strange situation. I was on one hand relieved, happy, liberated, rejuvinated and feeling like a stone had fallen of my heart, but on the other hand I was in panic and I felt I was falling in an empty void with no solid ground. It went on for a few weeks, and I can't explain how it felt. It was hard, but I could feel it was right.

 

From there on, I can say I'm more content with my life and with my family's situation. I'm much happier, feel more in control of my own decisions and more open minded.

 

The only hard part is the pressure from culture, media and people around you that you have to be Christian to be accepted. I feel more like an outcast now, like a leper. I feel like there is a silent persecution going on in this country against non-believers, and it doesn't make me happy. I sure hope Ann Coulter doesn't get her wish and Bush starts to kill or deport all atheists...

 

(Ann Coulter is a True Christian™ writer btw, just so you know)

[Thurisaz]

Harder to tell true Christians from the fanatics,

 

Whoever uses the term "True Christian™" in any possibly sympathetic way earns an instant label "meme-infected" from me.

There are no "true christians"... for everyone can be true or false due to the book of lies.

[Alice]

Hesitent~

 

Once again, your thoughtful and very transparent post leaves me thinking. You and I seem to be so very similar in the sense that we seem to struggle with some of the same thoughts, but from opposite sides.

I still believe he does this.

 

But there are many times I feel it would be so much easier to not believe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

For me it hasn't really been a question of ease or difficulty. I am perhaps not the best advocate for disbelief - because if I was going to say how I have found deconverting - then words like 'saddness' would be in there to describe my journey.

 

I feel a great saddness that I no longer have a belief in a good and loving god. I still love the idea of a good and loving god but for me the evidence for his existence just doesn't add up anymore.

 

I find it harder to know what to do with negative feelings these days - I used to 'give them over to God' - and it always worked for me. I think I spiral into despair more easily these days and its harder to climb back out again, when faced with impossible problems and tragic situations where I am pretty powerless ( But I do still eventually pull myself up - I just don't feel as though I have the helping hand I once thought was there)

 

I think my belief in God had a sort of placebo effect on me. Other non believers tell me that this should make me feel good - because now I know that the things I thought in the past God had done for me - I now know I did for me.

 

This however does not send me away rejoicing - I prefered the story where there was this wonderful loving god who was guaranteed to make it all alright in the end! And I'm not saying that everything was brilliant about my faith - there were always bits of christianity I struggled with and wasn't comfortable with - but my core belief was in a loving God and in my heart of hearts the horrid bits of christianity just didn't sit comfortably with the god I felt I was in a relationship with - so I always got by on this belief that 'all will be revealed in the end and there WILL be a loving explanation for what seems so unloving'.

 

The difficulty is - that once you have uncovered the fact that you no longer believe god exists - you can't magic back the belief. Occasionally I've been tempted to try and pretend a belief - but in the end for me - because the truth I arrived at was that the God I had been believeing in does not exist - I had to go with that truth - a sad truth is better than a happy lie (I guess?!)

[Lizard]

The difficulty is - that once you have uncovered the fact that you no longer believe god exists - you can't magic back the belief. Occasionally I've been tempted to try and pretend a belief - but in the end for me - because the truth I arrived at was that the God I had been believeing in does not exist - I had to go with that truth - a sad truth is better than a happy lie

 

This is just so true. I tried a few times to bring it back too. The thing is, the lie wasn't so happy. The truth still hits as sad at times.

 

Nope..not easier to not believe..it really is harder, on the outside, that is. The peace that comes from the acceptance, finally, that it was a lie..that far outweighs the struggle in the everyday life when people look at you like you are from some other planet..or a leper..

[Lizard]

Unlike most of you folks I was not born into a Christian environment/culture.

 

I was not born into a Christian family either. It was more of an agnostic type..no religion at all.

[Caretaker]

I don't think it should be about finding the easier route.

 

I suppose for some, Christianity is easier because it conveniently hands answers out on a silver platter whether they are right or not, while in Atheism, one must search for the answer. It may be easier in that way, but I most certainly don't think that is the right way.

 

Of course, it may be easier to the inquisitive mind to be an atheist, as they might get tired of the run around they might get from the church.

 

Oh, and yes, Atheism is most definitely easier in the respect that you don't have to worry about whether it is ok to smile on a Sunday, or celebrate Halloween, or anything else trivial. I have been on a youth Christian forum, and I see that forum chalk full of teenagers asking if it is right to do this, right to do that... And they are little things.

 

As an atheist, I really don't sweat that small stuff. It is obvious that murder is wrong, that sex should be consentual, and that theft is not right. It's part of that instinct that we don't want to harm other people.

 

Of course, it can be hard to be Atheist since Christianity has the tendancy to incessantly drag its name in the mud. As such, we get Christians here who give us hell from time to time. Well, that does make one thing right, that there is no peace in Atheism. Except of course, that it is Christians to break the peace.

 

I have generally found Atheism to be easier than to be a Christian, since I hated going to church, but I am atheist because I wanted to be honest with myself, not because it is easier.

[Antlerman]

<snip>

After reading all your posts... well, interesting. And IMHO, I believe it's still much, much easier to be an atheist or agnostic or god-less.

<snip>

I'm really glad you brought this subject up. No, I disagree with you that it is easier to be an atheist. Let me first clarify what I see the term atheist means. It means someone who disbelieves or denies the existence of God. Someone who does drugs and lives a lawless life is not an atheist. They are just someone who isn't following a religious belief or are rebelling against their church's teaching.

 

Atheism is a fully conscious choice that rejects the belief in gods or a god from a philosophical decision. Someone who's living amorally isn't rejecting the teaching of the church on philosophical grounds. They are just being irresponsible. Atheists are highly moral people because they have chosen to live life responsibly from within themselves, without needing an external power to help keep themselves on the straight and narrow, so to speak.

 

That said; think of the difficulty of being an Atheist in terms of you're having grown up in a non-Christian culture and becoming a Christian. You were going against the stream of your culture in rejecting the widely accepted beliefs. Ditto. How is your experience more difficult than someone declaring a conscious rejection of all gods?

 

People view true atheism as a threat to culture. They think you have to have religion to keep society from being out of control. The Church burned atheists. Governments wouldn't allow them to give testimony in court because they branded them as lawless and amoral because they rejected god - of course they were not, but the Church branded them as such to keep the threat to themselves under control through ostracizing them, etc, etc. No it is not easier to be an atheist.

 

Personally, I think it’s easy to believe in a god because most people do. I also think it’s less frightening to people then to accept that outside the natural world there is nothing, no loving God to take you into his eternal arms; No all-powerful parent figure to keep you safe; No God that explains “why” I am here, etc. Being an atheist means it’s all up to you. There is no ultimate meaning to my existence; it’s only as much or as little as I make it, etc. Those are not easy things to accept by any means. But in due respect, neither is a lot of the choices you have made going against convention either. It’s just not fair to say being an atheist is an easy thing to decide to be.

 

Peace.

[Checkmate]

Just this morning I wrote something. I was wondering whether or not to share it with "the group", and then I logged on and saw this thread. I think that this is the perfect place to share these thoughts of mine. Enjoy!

 

Pilgrim’s Progress – Apologetic Allegory or Condemning Characterization?

 

John Bunyan’s classic is widely accepted by Christians as the finest piece of fiction outside of the bible, because it accurately reflects the Christian’s walk of faith. During what was to become my last year of Christianity I finally listened to Bunyan’s tale in a dramatic reading downloaded from the internet. (I suppose I could have read it, but I was too lazy. I think listening was better.)

 

But what happened next surprised even me. Instead of strengthening my faith, Pilgrim’s Progress clearly demonstrated PRECISELY what is wrong with Christianity.

 

In Progress we have the main character “Christian”, after living a normal life, he is suddenly saddled with a “smelly burden”. It miraculously appears on his back after he reads this “book”. The book explains that he and all of his townsfolk are in danger of the Lord's judgment and must flee to safety. His laments are so great that his family and friends are concerned for his sanity and well being. He is even instructed that if reading the book is what caused his troubles, then maybe he should stop reading that book!

 

It is at THIS point that I received MY epiphany.

 

Notice that “Christian” has NO problem until AFTER he reads the Book. Notice that NO ONE else has this smelly burden, even though Christian claims that they too will suffer in this great judgment.

 

Someone has said that Christianity is like being healthy and having a surgeon cut you with his scalpel, and THEN he offers you a cure for the wound that HE inflicted! (A cure which can be revoked IF you fail to make perpetual payments!)

 

Exactly right. Were it not for this “book” convincing him he had a problem, where before there was NO problem, Christian would have been fine. His problem was obviously psychosomatically induced by this “Book”.

 

But rather than take the sage advice of ignoring the “Book”, Christian listens to the stranger called “Evangelist”. Christian flees his home, abandoning his family, friends and life, to pursue some Lord and his salvation. During the trip Christian endures many trials, even after he has his “burden” removed at the foot of the cross. On his way to the Eternal City he suffers much anguish and pain and loss for the promise of things to come.

 

Even after he has arrived at the Eternal City he must endure tests that threaten his existence.

 

At any time before Christian wins through, if he falters at any point he could lose everything and wind up with everyone else who did NOT endure what he has suffered so far.

 

What a bullshit proposition!

 

And VERY accurate of what the bible teaches.

 

Take a perfectly happy human being, deceive him into believing his life is in danger, and that he must believe a fairy tale and endure hardships for this fairy tale to save himself (or be saved). Then threaten him with eternal loss if at any time he stops believing the fairy tale.

 

THIS IS CHRISTIANITY IN ALL IT’S RIDICULOUSNESS!

 

I didn’t know it at the time, but MY life was perfectly fine before I knew this “gospel” of Jesus Christ. I was content and doing well, until I was convinced that I was a “sinner in need of salvation.” That’s when my life went into a tailspin. Fear of “God” and guilt for crimes not committed became the crutches that crippled me. My “smelly burden” was secured to my back, and only faith in the blood of “Jesus” could remove it.

 

Good grief. In retrospect, I find it hard to believe that I fell for this bullshit. But I did. To my everlasting shame, I bought it. Hook, line and sinker.

 

But THIS “pilgrim” has had his “burden” removed by reason, and not by the “blood of the lamb”. Once I recognized that I was being scammed by the church and their bible, I threw off the “burden of belief” myself. Now I walk upright and free. And all I had to do was “stop reading that book!”

 

Ironically, “Jesus” says you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. Hah! Finally something written in the bible that I can agree with!

 

 

 

That's the end, folks. So in answer to the OP question: YES! It is MUCH easier being an Ex-C!

[Amethyst]

Wow. The guy in Pilgrim's Progress sounds liike an angsty Marty Stu.

 

This is just so true. I tried a few times to bring it back too. The thing is, the lie wasn't so happy. The truth still hits as sad at times.

 

Same here. I tried going to a liberal church so my family wouldn't worry about me. It didn't help. Trying to believe in the myth again is like trying to believe in Santa Claus after you have already seen your parents wrapping presents and labeling them "From Santa & Mrs. Claus," or the tooth fairy after seeing your mom put a quarter under your pillow one day. Could you believe in Santa again? I couldn't.

[Ouroboros]

...

I feel a great saddness that I no longer have a belief in a good and loving god. I still love the idea of a good and loving god but for me the evidence for his existence just doesn't add up anymore.

Yes, I agree. To be honest, I would like to believe again and to think there is a God, but I'm waiting for any kind of sign that would convince me enough to make me believe there is one. Until then I can't do anything but concede to un-faith.

 

 

...

The difficulty is - that once you have uncovered the fact that you no longer believe god exists - you can't magic back the belief. Occasionally I've been tempted to try and pretend a belief - but in the end for me - because the truth I arrived at was that the God I had been believeing in does not exist - I had to go with that truth - a sad truth is better than a happy lie (I guess?!)

True. It's easy to believe when that's what you always done your whole life, but when you loose it, you can't just muster up an emotion of belief. Belief comes from trusting the source of information, and when you can't trust the information, you just can't step out on a limb an believe. It just doesn't work that way. The only way for God to prove his existence now, is to give faith in a magical and supernatural way, and if he doesn't, then it's because that's his choice or because he doesn't exist.

[Amethyst]

The only way for God to prove his existence now, is to give faith in a magical and supernatural way, and if he doesn't, then it's because that's his choice or because he doesn't exist.

 

IMHO, the only way for me to believe in god again would be for Jesus himself to come down and say, "You know all that shit about hell in the bible? You people have that wrong. Nobody is going to hell, ever. Certainly not people who use the brain I gave them, and not people who were born differently, or in countries where Christianity is not the dominant religion. Oh, and all that crap in the old testament? You can kiss it goodbye. Some kook made that up. In fact, all you have to do is live by the golden rule. Quit hating each other. Stop the bigotry and the violence and all the SHIT that is done in my name. Toss out the bible, too. I didn't write that. Some stupid sheep farmer wrote that 2,000 years ago and said I wrote it. I didn't. You know, if you just live decent lives and treat each other like human beings regardless of your differences, you will be fine."

 

But you know what? That's not going to happen. Because if Jesus existed at all, he would've been a normal human being, not god, which means he's not coming back. And if he was a literary character as I suspect, it's still not going to happen. So I can't believe without proof, and I'm still not going to worship a deity who thinks it's perfectly fine to torture people for all of eternity simply because they are human.

[Ouroboros]

Interesting point MrGrinch. Christianity is like the chain letters that pop up in the email now and then:

"Send this to 10 other people or terrible things will happen to you."

 

The problem is that if I never got the email, I would not be in any danger.

But since I got the email, now of a sudden, I'm forced to act on a fictious danger.

 

It's like a discussion I had with a friend about her brother that became hard-core Christian.

 

She had asked him how God will handle with the people that have never heard the gospel.

 

And her brother told her, that we're only responsible for our decision after we have heard the gospel, and God will judge people that never heard differently, and more lenient.

 

So I told her to tell the brother that, now, it is his fault if she go to hell, since she was fine (God would judge her less) before she heard the gospel, but now, since she heard it, she have a 50/50% chance of going to Hell.

 

In the end, it's the Christians fault that anyone goes to hell. Not the personal choice.

 

I had a 100% chance of arguing my case before God, before I heard the Gospel.

After hearing the gospel, you have a 50/50% chance only.

 

So evangelizing decreases people chance of the good future.

 

This is a reversed Pascals wager (Hans wager ), that if you tell the gospel people will have something to loose, but if you don't tell the gospel, they stand a better chance and have less to loose. So Christians, it's better if you don't preach!

[Guest ImaBean]

Unlike most of you folks I was not born into a Christian environment/culture. I was born into a Buddhist family in an Islamic country (Malaysia ~ we do have "freedom" of religion. But no churches and temples are allowed to be built after 1957, our independence from the British colonists). And I was baptised in the Holy Spirit very late in life (49 years old).

 

Truly I tell you, before then I would bolt when I so much as sniff an evangelizing machine heading my way.

 

After reading all your posts... well, interesting. And IMHO, I believe it's still much, much easier to be an atheist or agnostic or god-less.

 

Harder to tell true Christians from the fanatics, Mormons, Jehovah witnesses. Roman Catholics... ahhhh, still not sure about them. And so many denominations. What gives?

 

Harder still to be a good Christian? Easier to be Ex-C?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's easier to be an atheist in the sense that we don't have all the silly guilt trips, blood baths, and fear based dogma. And when I do a good deed I don't have to worry about some god seeing it so I ensure my front row seat in heaven, I do it because it's the right thing to do and that's enough for me. But it's one heck of a lot harder to be an atheist in a professional employment environment. The more "loving" the xtian the bigger the bigot.

 

And what is this about Mormons, etc. not being "true" xtians? Who the heck are you to determine who is a true xtian? Perhaps one of the reasons being xtian is so difficult is because you are too busy worrying about the wrong things. If someone claims to be xtian, that is between the person and their god. How do you know RCs aren't true xtians and you have it all wrong?

[Amethyst]

Harder to tell true Christians from the fanatics, Mormons, Jehovah witnesses. Roman Catholics... ahhhh, still not sure about them.

 

 

Arrgrgh! Not another bigot. Look, if you ask them, they will tell you that they are Christian. In fact, some of them will probably tell you that they are the only Real True Christians and you aren't, because you belong to XYZ denomination and they belong to ABC denomination, and ABC denomination has the only Real True Interpretation of Holy Scripture.

 

Funny how prejudice works, isn't it?

[Mythra]

There is no question that life is easier and freer as an ex-christian. I used to read the bible. A lot. And I struggled like hell with it. Trying to understand this God that I claimed for my own. The capricious nature of his anger. I'd read something in the old testament (and sometimes even in the new), where God gets really pissed off, and I'd have to go to a damn commentary to figure out what pissed off God this time.

 

It sucks to live life like some giant judge is looking over your shoulder, demons are trying to get you stumble, Satan is prowling about. You are worried about your "unsaved" loved ones. You judge everyone through your Christian-colored glasses. You can't help but feel superior because you found the truth. Your pastor makes you feel guilty because you can never give enough money or time. You can never be good enough to please God on your own. You feel inadequate and dirty.

 

I remember clearly waking up about six months ago and realizing I was alone in the room. No angels or demons or God or devil. Just me.

 

Yeah. I'd have to say this is better.

[Mythra]

ps, smug. I mean pug.

 

Your title "woo hoo freedom" is an obvious attempt at a slam. Like the only reason people leave religion is so that they can sin to their hearts content and not worry about it. They can do whatever they please.

 

You would be amazed how little my lifestyle (and many others here) has changed now that I'm accountable only to myself. I live pretty much the same as I did as a christian.

 

The demons must be dissapointed.

[I Broke Free]

I find being an atheist much easier than trying be a Christian. It was only after I gave up being a fake person that I truly "got" the message below.

 

Thank You Billy Joel. It truly is MY LIFE!

 

 

I don't need you to worry for me cause I'm alright

I don't want you to tell me it's time to come home

I don't care what you say anymore, this is my life

Go ahead with your own life and leave me alone

 

I never said you had to offer me a second chance

I never said I was a victim of circumstance

I still belong, don't get me wrong

And you can speak you mind

But not on my time

 

IBF