What Exactly Do I Believe?

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

I wish I could move out of this house. I'm sick of picking up the vibe of "If you don't believe the same, you're not normal." I'm sick of having to do these stupid family devotionals, which consist of nothing but reading a chapter of the NT and praying the same prayer every time, which never effects anything. I'm sick of hearing all this crazy religious shit talked about and feeling like if I don't go along with it, something is seriously wrong with me. I'm sick of hearing these damned hypocritical greedy redneck hick televangelists on TV all the time. I'm sick of keeping my mouth shut about it. The only reason I do is because if someone knew half of what I really thought, I would lose their trust, and they would probably be all up in my business, wanting to know every little thing I'm doing, in fear that I'm sinning or something. I'm tired of it. I need to get out of this fucking enviroment.

You know that you will leave sometime. Make plans, investigate options, and avoid shooting yourself in the foot (proverbially).

 

It takes some courage to leave the cocoon, but that's life. Don't compromise your ambitions looking for quick and easy solutions; try to maintain perspective.

 

I feel guilty for even saying that. I have better parents than I even deserve, then I turn around and say something like this.... I'm the problem. I hate myself more and more every day. I'm sorry, but I can't quit shooting myself in the foot. I'm a weak, pathetic, insecure, gullible, unstable, failure of a human being. I'm becoming everything I don't want to be. If there is a such thing as the final judgement, I'm going to feel nothing but guilt and shame for everything that I am.... and then I'll have to think about it, be mentally tortured with it for all eternity, aside from the physical torment. A while back in that other thread, I mentioned suicide a few times. But I know deep down that I would never actually do that. Why did I bring that up? What the fuck is wrong with me? Am I nothing more than an attention whore? Consciously or not? What was I really trying to accomplish by mentioning that? What the hell am I doing, what are my motives? I don't even understand myself. Pathetic!

Whether your parents are "good" or "bad" you will still need to leave the nest. Perhaps they know this too, and they may even help you.

 

I think you may also be overanalyzing yourself. Worrying about your motives for your motives is probably not helpful.

 

I may be over-analyzing myself, but that just helps me see myself more for what I am.

[ShallowByThyGame]

You are a human being, just as flawed as any other, but that is not a bad thing. It's natural. Don't hold yourself to unreasonable standards.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

You are a human being, just as flawed as any other, but that is not a bad thing. It's natural. Don't hold yourself to unreasonable standards.

 

I'm not holding myself to unreasonable standards.

[DesertBob]

I'm not holding myself to unreasonable standards.

If anyone were as hard on me as you are on you, I'd smack 'em one. And believe me, I'm a man of peace.

 

You are your own worst enemy. Become your own best friend. It's game-changing. Believe me, if you won't do it, no one else will.

 

And quit over-estimating how much everyone else has their sh_t together. They're just as confused as you. Maybe they're less honest and/or better at concealing it, but they have access to no more info than you do ... and probably less brains to analyze the data.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

If anyone were as hard on me as you are on you, I'd smack 'em one. And believe me, I'm a man of peace.

 

You are your own worst enemy. Become your own best friend. It's game-changing. Believe me, if you won't do it, no one else will.

 

And quit over-estimating how much everyone else has their sh_t together. They're just as confused as you. Maybe they're less honest and/or better at concealing it, but they have access to no more info than you do ... and probably less brains to analyze the data.

 

Believe me, the tough criticism I put on myself is not undeserved.

[DesertBob]

If anyone were as hard on me as you are on you, I'd smack 'em one. And believe me, I'm a man of peace.

 

You are your own worst enemy. Become your own best friend. It's game-changing. Believe me, if you won't do it, no one else will.

 

And quit over-estimating how much everyone else has their sh_t together. They're just as confused as you. Maybe they're less honest and/or better at concealing it, but they have access to no more info than you do ... and probably less brains to analyze the data.

 

Believe me, the tough criticism I put on myself is not undeserved.

Maybe, and maybe not. But there is this thing called "grace" (definition = "unmerited favor"). Even God is supposed to be willing to give it to you. So give it to yourself -- deserved or not.

 

From a certain perspective I've made Stoopid choices too. There are moments when it's appropriate for me to acknowledge that to myself, even to others -- and to accept the role I had and the consequences of my actions. But only at certain times and in certain contexts. Let me give you an example.

 

My daughter can be disrespectful and take me for granted and she has an entitlement chip on her shoulder that weighs about 26 pounds. She is aggressive, and she sometimes manipulates me with guilt. I was not a perfect father and I did fail her in certain ways. So from a certain perspective, I have to acknowledge that and allow her the space to be angry and resentful about it. But from another perspective, it's water over the dam. She's a 31 year old woman, gainfully employed as a nurse, with two delightful sons. And in many, many important ways, I was an excellent and devoted father -- to a fault. My GF pulls her hair out because she would have loved to have had a Dad like me -- hers was one of those disconnected, uninvolved, arm's length, judgmental, arses of a Dad who has effectively disowned her and her two siblings for no good reason at all -- yet despite such contrasts, my daughter can't / won't see and acknowledge what I did right.

 

I can judge myself harshly but my daughter takes care of that for me. Why should I compound it? So yes, I have fessed up to myself -- I should have done certain things differently, but overall, most daughters would have the attitude about someone like me, OMG, that's my Dad, I'd do anything for him. So I needn't flog myself and and I needn't be vulnerable to my daughter's constant irrational whine that I "was / am never there for her", which is patently not true, as independently attested by many others.

 

Nothing is ever clear cut. You never do everything perfect. You would have to be perfect, or unrealistically close to perfect, before you would let up on yourself. This is a defect. Cut it out. That ways lies madness.

[Phanta]

Eh, it didn't go so well. I prepared something that I wanted to read, and I was ready to do it, yet some invisible force made me not read it, like the pathetic piece of shit I am. They guy was a Christian too, and although he didn't preach at me.... he wasn't as neutral as I preferred. He basically upped my dosage on a medicine that I've already tried, and told me not to read or listen to what triggered the anxious thoughts. Then I asked, wouldn't I have to forsake religion completely to do that? He said that some people who have obsessive thoughts with doubting their salvation who attend churches with very "evangelistic" preaching sometimes have to switch to a more "mild" church. I then asked, is that biblical? He gave his reason why he thought it was, even though it's not. I wish I had said that to his face. I've learned something... and that is that if I'm going to overcome this, I have to do it on my own. I have to muster up whatever strength I have and fight it myself. No drugs, doctors, shrinks, counselors, or gods will do it for me. Fuck it, I'm not going back to any more shrinks. I'll either overcome it myself or fall flat on my face trying.

 

Psychiatrists don't tend to spend much time doing any counseling. As far as I can tell, their primary purpose is to medicate people, not to support them in their cognitive process through lots of talk therapy. Counselors and psychiatrists are different.

 

My counselor is not Christian, nor is she any kind of theist. My counselor is not allowed to prescribe medication. My counselor counsels. This means regular talking, every couple of weeks. This means she uses real strategies like cognitive behavioral therapy in our sessions.

 

You didn't go to a person who could do what you are looking for. It's not because counselors are bad, it's because you didn't go to a counselor. You went to a prescriber of medicine with a triggering religious background, to boot.

 

Phanta

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Maybe, and maybe not. But there is this thing called "grace" (definition = "unmerited favor"). Even God is supposed to be willing to give it to you. So give it to yourself -- deserved or not.

 

From a certain perspective I've made Stoopid choices too. There are moments when it's appropriate for me to acknowledge that to myself, even to others -- and to accept the role I had and the consequences of my actions. But only at certain times and in certain contexts. Let me give you an example.

 

My daughter can be disrespectful and take me for granted and she has an entitlement chip on her shoulder that weighs about 26 pounds. She is aggressive, and she sometimes manipulates me with guilt. I was not a perfect father and I did fail her in certain ways. So from a certain perspective, I have to acknowledge that and allow her the space to be angry and resentful about it. But from another perspective, it's water over the dam. She's a 31 year old woman, gainfully employed as a nurse, with two delightful sons. And in many, many important ways, I was an excellent and devoted father -- to a fault. My GF pulls her hair out because she would have loved to have had a Dad like me -- hers was one of those disconnected, uninvolved, arm's length, judgmental, arses of a Dad who has effectively disowned her and her two siblings for no good reason at all -- yet despite such contrasts, my daughter can't / won't see and acknowledge what I did right.

 

I can judge myself harshly but my daughter takes care of that for me. Why should I compound it? So yes, I have fessed up to myself -- I should have done certain things differently, but overall, most daughters would have the attitude about someone like me, OMG, that's my Dad, I'd do anything for him. So I needn't flog myself and and I needn't be vulnerable to my daughter's constant irrational whine that I "was / am never there for her", which is patently not true, as independently attested by many others.

 

Nothing is ever clear cut. You never do everything perfect. You would have to be perfect, or unrealistically close to perfect, before you would let up on yourself. This is a defect. Cut it out. That ways lies madness.

 

What good will it do anyone if I choose to have grace on myself? It won't change anything. It will just make it worse, because I'll end up deceiving myself into thinking that I'm ok, when I'm actually not, and when I come back to reality and see once again what a piece of shit I am, I'll fall. Hard.

 

 

Psychiatrists don't tend to spend much time doing any counseling. As far as I can tell, their primary purpose is to medicate people, not to support them in their cognitive process through lots of talk therapy. Counselors and psychiatrists are different.

 

My counselor is not Christian, nor is she any kind of theist. My counselor is not allowed to prescribe medication. My counselor counsels. This means regular talking, every couple of weeks. This means she uses real strategies like cognitive behavioral therapy in our sessions.

 

You didn't go to a person who could do what you are looking for. It's not because counselors are bad, it's because you didn't go to a counselor. You went to a prescriber of medicine with a triggering religious background, to boot.

 

Phanta

 

I was told to see a psychiatrist, and that's what I did.

[Phanta]

I was told to see a psychiatrist, and that's what I did.

 

I recommended a secular therapist specializing in cognitive behavioral therapy, not a psychiatric doctor specializing in pills. I encouraged you to have a conversation with prospective counselors (nonmedical therapists and social workers) about their religious beliefs before making an appointment.

 

Phanta

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

I was told to see a psychiatrist, and that's what I did.

 

I recommended a secular therapist specializing in cognitive behavioral therapy, not a psychiatric doctor specializing in pills. I encouraged you to have a conversation with prospective counselors (nonmedical therapists and social workers) about their religious beliefs before making an appointment.

 

Phanta

 

Guess I misunderstood.

 

Still, the guy I saw was who my neurologist wanted me to see, and she knew, although not to the full extent (nobody does, except on these boards) how obsessive I was.

[Shyone]

 

Still, the guy I saw was who my neurologist wanted me to see, and she knew, although not to the full extent (nobody does, except on these boards) how obsessive I was.

Past tense. That's a start.

 

Even if it was just a Freudian slip.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

 

Still, the guy I saw was who my neurologist wanted me to see, and she knew, although not to the full extent (nobody does, except on these boards) how obsessive I was.

Past tense. That's a start.

 

Even if it was just a Freudian slip.

 

It wasn't a slip. My obsessive nature is both past and present tense.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

I've made up my mind, I'm done with Christianity. I decided that a while ago. But until my mind knows what to believe (not what it wants to believe) it will always go back to the Christian position by default, even though I know Christianity isn't logical. Until I find something to "replace" Christianity with, my brain will always go back to it's default position, which is Christianity, after being unable to find anything else. No matter how much I know it's a crock of shit.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Sorry for the triple post, but I gotta say, damn it, why can't it be more obvious what is true and what is not. On one hand, I genuinely want to know what it is, but on the other, if it's a total mindfuck, I'd rather be in the dark about it. I'm pissed at religion and what it does to people. How it makes people act. How it wrecks their mind. I don't want anything to do with it. But I don't want to be "apostate" either. I feel like writing my own creed of beliefs. But then again, it would probably be nothing but wishful thinking. I know in my heart that a person can never truly know without a doubt if they're right or not. I don't think it should be all that important. So much shit in the world is caused by people fighting over their myths and stories that have no proof whatsoever. Religion is evil. I don't want that. I don't support that. I never again can. To hell with it. Why base your life on something that requires such blind faith? When things obviously don't add up about those beliefs? Oh, wait, there's always an answer! "I don't have the answers" "God's ways are not our ways" "All things work together for the good of those who are called according to his purpose" Translation: It doesn't make any fucking sense! Think, people! THINK! Why is it so fucking evil to use your brain?! These religious people (not all of them, but some) are gullible idiots. I won't support their stupidity anymore.

[DesertBob]

What good will it do anyone if I choose to have grace on myself? It won't change anything. It will just make it worse, because I'll end up deceiving myself into thinking that I'm ok, when I'm actually not, and when I come back to reality and see once again what a piece of shit I am, I'll fall. Hard.

I'm not suggesting that you be dishonest with yourself or with anyone else. I'm suggesting that you quit punishing and judging yourself. Why you're hell-bent on doing so is beyond me, but you're pretty obstinate about it so I guess there's not much point in discussing it further.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

What good will it do anyone if I choose to have grace on myself? It won't change anything. It will just make it worse, because I'll end up deceiving myself into thinking that I'm ok, when I'm actually not, and when I come back to reality and see once again what a piece of shit I am, I'll fall. Hard.

I'm not suggesting that you be dishonest with yourself or with anyone else. I'm suggesting that you quit punishing and judging yourself. Why you're hell-bent on doing so is beyond me, but you're pretty obstinate about it so I guess there's not much point in discussing it further.

 

I'm not like that just for the hell of it. I would rather work on myself, then give myself credit where it's due. I think it's a good thing when a person is their own toughest critic. If handled right, it can result in some good character develpment. But that's the key, if a person handles it right. I'm not doing so well at that.

[Phanta]

I was told to see a psychiatrist, and that's what I did.

 

I recommended a secular therapist specializing in cognitive behavioral therapy, not a psychiatric doctor specializing in pills. I encouraged you to have a conversation with prospective counselors (nonmedical therapists and social workers) about their religious beliefs before making an appointment.

 

Phanta

 

Guess I misunderstood.

 

Still, the guy I saw was who my neurologist wanted me to see, and she knew, although not to the full extent (nobody does, except on these boards) how obsessive I was.

 

That's a pretty strong recommendation, coming from your neurologist. People who have a psychiatrist for meds often also do talk therapy with a counselor. The combo of talk with meds, if meds are necessary, is usually recommended. There are different types of talk therapists (social workers, psychologists, and a shrinking number of psychologists--they're way more focused on meds, now-- focused either on cognitive behavioral therapy or psychodynamic therapy).

 

If you do try to supplement the meds with talk therapy again in the future, you have the right as a client seeking a service to ask, specifically, before your appointment, for a cognitive behavioral therapists who is not a Christian, and whatever other criteria is important to you. If they don't fit, make another call.

 

Phanta

 

p.s. - I am not a doctor, psychologist, or counselor of any kind. I'm just sharing information I've picked up from my own situation and that of family and friends over the years. Your neurologist is definitely the one with authority here, and you might ask her about CBT counseling...see what she says.

[Shyone]

Sorry for the triple post, but I gotta say, damn it, why can't it be more obvious what is true and what is not. On one hand, I genuinely want to know what it is, but on the other, if it's a total mindfuck, I'd rather be in the dark about it. I'm pissed at religion and what it does to people. How it makes people act. How it wrecks their mind. I don't want anything to do with it. But I don't want to be "apostate" either. I feel like writing my own creed of beliefs. But then again, it would probably be nothing but wishful thinking. I know in my heart that a person can never truly know without a doubt if they're right or not. I don't think it should be all that important. So much shit in the world is caused by people fighting over their myths and stories that have no proof whatsoever. Religion is evil. I don't want that. I don't support that. I never again can. To hell with it. Why base your life on something that requires such blind faith? When things obviously don't add up about those beliefs? Oh, wait, there's always an answer! "I don't have the answers" "God's ways are not our ways" "All things work together for the good of those who are called according to his purpose" Translation: It doesn't make any fucking sense! Think, people! THINK! Why is it so fucking evil to use your brain?! These religious people (not all of them, but some) are gullible idiots. I won't support their stupidity anymore.

First, religions were designed around the concept of the unknown. As time has passed, the unknown has either diminished or become cemented - that is, we have more knowledge about a lot of things religions claimed to be, but there will probably always be the unknown. After death, for example. Or the beginning of the universe. So the whole idea is to claim truth for the unknown. Where's God? Um, invisible, untouchable, silent, omniabsent... God is the negation of existence. Anyone claiming to speak for God cannot be refuted. Anything people say about God can't be refuted.

 

So we must go back to our roots - our understanding. When religion makes claims that conflict with reality, we can at least say, "That is very unlikely and technically impossible." We can also say, "If I can't hear the voice but you can, then you are the one with the problem."

 

Speaking of gullibility, the most gullible people on earth were the ancient Hebrews. They actually thought God gave them orders to slaughter people, execute their own, and not eat seafood. Sheesh.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

 

That's a pretty strong recommendation, coming from your neurologist. People who have a psychiatrist for meds often also do talk therapy with a counselor. The combo of talk with meds, if meds are necessary, is usually recommended. There are different types of talk therapists (social workers, psychologists, and a shrinking number of psychologists--they're way more focused on meds, now-- focused either on cognitive behavioral therapy or psychodynamic therapy).

 

If you do try to supplement the meds with talk therapy again in the future, you have the right as a client seeking a service to ask, specifically, before your appointment, for a cognitive behavioral therapists who is not a Christian, and whatever other criteria is important to you. If they don't fit, make another call.

 

Phanta

 

p.s. - I am not a doctor, psychologist, or counselor of any kind. I'm just sharing information I've picked up from my own situation and that of family and friends over the years. Your neurologist is definitely the one with authority here, and you might ask her about CBT counseling...see what she says.

 

Actually, I don't see a neurologist anymore. She pretty much said there was nothing more she could do after having me see the shrink.

 

 

First, religions were designed around the concept of the unknown. As time has passed, the unknown has either diminished or become cemented - that is, we have more knowledge about a lot of things religions claimed to be, but there will probably always be the unknown. After death, for example. Or the beginning of the universe. So the whole idea is to claim truth for the unknown. Where's God? Um, invisible, untouchable, silent, omniabsent... God is the negation of existence. Anyone claiming to speak for God cannot be refuted. Anything people say about God can't be refuted.

 

So we must go back to our roots - our understanding. When religion makes claims that conflict with reality, we can at least say, "That is very unlikely and technically impossible." We can also say, "If I can't hear the voice but you can, then you are the one with the problem."

 

Speaking of gullibility, the most gullible people on earth were the ancient Hebrews. They actually thought God gave them orders to slaughter people, execute their own, and not eat seafood. Sheesh.

 

Maybe God did tell them that. Who can really know for sure.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Sometimes I really wonder.... What if Judaism is the truth? Makes a little more sense to say that Christianity is a false offspring of Judaism than to try and combine the Old Testament and New, when they obviously don't seem to have ever been meant to go together.

[DesertBob]

Sorry for the triple post, but I gotta say, damn it, why can't it be more obvious what is true and what is not.

It's actually quite obvious, but we don't want to accept it. Life is random, and has no meaning other than what we assign to it. This makes us completely responsible for making our own meaning -- a responsibility that many do not want to accept.

 

Life is also finite, and as far as can be definitely determined, "this is all there is".

 

There are positive implications to all this. If this is all there is, then life is all the more precious and we're more prone to be respectful of it and careful with it. If we have to make our own meaning, at least we have significant creative freedom. If there are no gods, or at least none who care what we do or don't do, then we needn't be constantly wondering if what we're doing is "right" by some arbitrary external values standard. And so on.

 

We're mortal, and when we're gone, we're gone. The ultimate horror to some -- but to me it's a great comfort. Life is frequently baffling, purpose elusive -- but no matter how bad it gets, it's finite and will be over soon enough.

 

Once you get used to all this it's not so hard to figure out at all.

 

As for the possibility (remote in my view, but still admissible) that there is a higher plane of existence or an afterlife, since virtually nothing can be first hand known about it, and all supposed second hand knowledge is conflicting and basically not credible, it is completely irrelevant -- whether it's there or not, whether it's better than this or not, etc. Who cares. Information unobtanium. Of no more interest than whether there are pink elephants on the fourth planet orbiting Proxima Centauri. Same thing applies to deity.

 

If you don't overthink it and thus complicate it -- if you work with what you can definitely know -- it's actually pretty simple. Granted there are lots of interesting questions and mind games to play -- but I find it best to leave them mostly alone for purposes of daily living.

 

Most of our problems come from an egocentric need to KNOW. Some things are beyond knowing. Our intellectual equipment is too puny, our senses too limited, the gods absent or disinterested -- why demand that this be other than what it is? Who are we to pitch a fit about it? Let it go.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

It's not obvious. If it was, there wouldn't be so many religions.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Fuck it, somebody lock this thread for good. I'm out of here.