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Goodbye Jesus

" Persecuted" Christians Post Their Prime Lodgings Online


R. S. Martin

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I see in the end I forgot something. Re 2Tim. 3:12. I just said what it appears to me to be saying--that Christians are told they will be persecuted if they live godly lives, i.e. if they are not persecuted they are not living godly lives. I am routinely told that as an atheist I cannot possibly know what the scriptures really mean. Hopefully, that also applies to this verse. It might stop all this pretend-persecution syndrome from these people.

 

 

Unfortunately, you interpreted this verse (and others) just the way many fundamentalist Southern and Missionary Baptists I have encountered interpret the verse.

 

Because fundies take the Bible literally, the idea of the "Persecuted Saints" is an ingrained part of the mythology. There are so many times that I heard preachers and enthusiastic believers say, "What we need is another persecution to weed out the true Christians from the superficial Christians." Or, "if you're not being persecuted, you're not living for Jesus!"

 

So, this need to see one's self as part of a persecuted, upright minority Christianity is the driver behind this redefinition of persecution to mean "people disagree with me politically, philosophically and religiously" rather than "people in power assault me, exclude me, take over my property and exclude me from ownership of property."

 

The dummying down of the meaning of persecution has a social result: the bonding of the group together into a unified whole. There is also the political result: the conservative agenda undergirded by a "least common denominator" Christian nationalism. And of course a religious result: they participate in persecution myth of Christianity.

 

Of course the "persecution" being decried is nothing like the persecution described in the Bible, Christian tradition and church history.

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Bingo!! :party:

 

And that is precisely the point. By your own admission you recognize the core flaw in that sort of belief system. A lack of taking responsibility. "It's the Devil", "It's them damned liberals". "It's the homosexuals". "If we purify our land of the wrongdoers, then we shall have a bountiful harvest!" Where is self-responsibility in this?

 

So you are say what attracts people to church is it gives them the hope to find a scapegoat to blame for their own misery? That's what it looks like you're saying in these words, "At least Christianity attempts to place the burden of fault not on the individual. What do you think brings people to church in the first place.....happiness?" That's a remarkable admission.

 

You misinterpreted what I was saying.

I think it's not a case of misinterpretation, as I show clearly it is what you did say. If however it's not what you meant, that's a different matter. I suppose I should have known what you meant to say by what you actually did say, which was not what you meant to say. :HaHa:

 

One reason that brings people to church is brokenness/hurt, no alternatives, as a result of society.

True, but it's also true that a lot of the reasons why people leave the church is for the same reason - hurt by the society of the church. I think there is a lesson in there....

 

Putting the blame on Satan is not looking for a place to substitute blaming humanity, as the Bible states that each indivdual is uniquely made and has a role to play via devine gift(s). Of course you are making the representation that there shouldn't even exist church, because if we all were theoretically self-responsible, then.....

Why do you say I say there shouldn't be a "church"? I'm not opposed to communities of people who support each other. What do you think this site is?

 

Being self responsible is not the end all be all of being human, that once you have that you don't need anyone or anything else. I wouldn't say that. Being responsible, is entirely different than being absolutely autonomous, free from any and all need to interact with others in a community.

 

I'll put it simply, we need to be true to ourselves, true to others, and true to the systems we operate within. We are more than just "I". "I" certainly need to take care of "I", by being first and foremost self-responsible. But part of that is others, and the world itself. If I fail in any of those areas, the whole is affected. To blame others, is to fail to recognize the need in myself to deal with my stuff, and the whole fails. Blaming Satan yield no value, if at the end of the day it doesn't translate into taking responsibility for yourself.

 

For me, seeking any sort of spiritual meaning, looking to a church or otherwise show be about find a higher level of meaning and experience to ones life, building to be something more. It shouldn't be about shifting blame for personal feelings of guilt. And that's what you're saying it is. "I don't like the guilt, and I need to find someone else to blame. I'll go to church and they'll help me find the right party to blame." Is that what you really want to say here?

 

Repentance is "shifting" guilt?

What? No, repentance is would be taking responsibility. But what does that have to do with what I just said?

 

So you ask, "who do we have to blame". No one. Ourselves. But not others. Yes others do wrong, yes others are unfair, but our actions, our attitudes, our beliefs are our responsibility and ours alone. If you have to blame someone, or put a finger on the fault, it is yours alone. I thought the whole purpose for asking forgiveness was taking responsibility, isn't it? (Really the asking forgiveness part is about forgiving yourself. It's a system to get you to that place if that's needed).

 

Gheeze....from what standard are you deriving forgiving yourself.....relative societal?

I don't believe in relativism in the sense that you would have been taught. I do accept the relative nature of truth and morals, but not in the sense of anything goes. There are a lot of factors that go into one feeling remorse over ones actions. It's not just one thing here, or one thing there. Where the sense comes from is a whole pot of stew that goes into creating our sense of reality and our moral responses. It's not one thing only, unless you consider the whole to be that one thing. Then yes.

 

So no, it doesn't come from society alone, but it is mixed and blended into there, to be sure. Just as it is for every human who has ever lived in a culture. (You think so one-dimensionally).

 

It's fruits are as you say "Less than sterling qualities". We agree. Therefore, it is a disease in the body. Right? And some people need to get sick first in order to develop immunities against that sickness. Say, we are the antibodies, right here! :grin:

 

Need I point out Hebrews....desire meat and not milk. Hello, McFly!!! (you need to understand the last couple of days I have been picking on you for sport in good spirit. Please don't take the tone of my conversation any other way K)

I realize what you're doing. And I enjoy letting you play at it like a cub with an adult lion. I give you the space for you to play practice without actually turning and biting you, accidentally severing your head from your body. :HaHa:

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In the words of Yoda, "And that is why you fail". I don't doubt it. It is an inevitably should we wish to continue survival through growth. It is a natural development, should we choose to continue life.

 

Well, that's interesting to me....how long must the branch be attached by grafting before you can't tell it from the vine?

I don't believe anyone is grafted in. We are all in. At what point are those closer to being part of the root, should be the actual metaphor? That depends on them first taking responsibility, then developing beyond their small, egotistical worlds into the larger whole. At that point, then they are closer than "when they were a child".

 

For some individuals within it, maybe so. But as a position, it's a cancer.

 

Point noted.....again, my whole reason for involving myself in this conversation was your lack of empathy for those that it might be a legitimate phase and not a permanent position.

I've never had a lack of empathy. The problem has been your judgmental reactions.

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So, this need to see one's self as part of a persecuted, upright minority Christianity is the driver behind this redefinition of persecution to mean "people disagree with me politically, philosophically and religiously" rather than "people in power assault me, exclude me, take over my property and exclude me from ownership of property."

 

EXACTLY.

Persecution isn't "no, I don't agree, and no, you can't force anyone else to believe as you do at any time either. Please be adult."

Persecution is "KILL THE SATANISTS! THEY WEAR FUNNY CLOTHES!"

Slightly different.

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Guest Babylonian Dream

Christians are being persecuted in america and not us gays. We all know that's the truth. It's all a coverup. :dumbo:

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To answer my own question in the title of this thread, apparently the Christians will never get it that this isn't persecution. They will use equivocation supreme, and even outright lies, just so long as they can deceive themselves into think they are getting God's stamp of approval through persecution. Never mind that "all liars have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" (Rev. 21:8).

 

As a footnote, Answers.com carries a very interesting and informative description of "equivocation." Worth a read for those with time on their hands. It might even help us exChristians understand how we "could have ever believed this stuff."

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To answer my own question in the title of this thread, apparently the Christians will never get it that this isn't persecution. They will use equivocation supreme, and even outright lies, just so long as they can deceive themselves into think they are getting God's stamp of approval through persecution. Never mind that "all liars have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" (Rev. 21:8).

 

As a footnote, Answers.com carries a very interesting and informative description of "equivocation." Worth a read for those with time on their hands. It might even help us exChristians understand how we "could have ever believed this stuff."

 

 

How can we get it when at the first hint of misunderstanding you blame the people you are asking as twisting your words, etc.? I did no such thing and had no intent to do so. You didn't take the time to continue the dialogue and left it with this final bullshit response.

 

Next time Ruby, if you are going to be so shallow, start your playtime in the playpen.

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End3, please reread the OP, and all my posts to you. Every word.

 

I provide a number of illustrations of actual persecution. Those things aren't happening in Canada or the United States. If I am wrong, please provide the information along with website addresses and/or name of author and publication, plus date of publication.

 

Also, if you read all those posts, I think you will note that you are the first of us two (you and me) to swear at the other. You used a very impolite word in your post to me. That would be verbal abuse. Are you suggesting that verbal abuse is persecution???

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  • 2 months later...

I have known people who for years now have whined like babies about being persecuted.

 

Funny thing, though...

 

They meet in buildings worth hundreds of thousands of dollars even in a depressed real estate market.

 

Their meeting places are often outfitted with thousands of dollars' worth of sound and video equipment.

 

Any of them can walk into a major retail bookstore near them and purchase Bibles, commentaries, works

of theology or devotional material. At will. Openly and unashamedly.

 

Let a neighbor put a jack-o-lantern on their front porch, though, and right away the Xtards are being

"persecuted" because the neighbors OBVIOUSLY know that "we're Christians and don't believe in that stuff".

 

Of course, the valiant stand that Christians are taking in the US to display their unity, solidarity.

love, compassion and common respect for the tenets of our Constitution is SO clear and readily seen

that EVERYONE around them is just foaming at the mouth, waiting to pour out the persecution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or, not. The Christians around me are a self-satisfied, spoiled bunch of nitwits

who have every luxury that modern suburban society can afford them, and yet their

total lack of anything approaching a supernatural love, power or influence is just

staggering. The minute they are called on it, though... it's "persecution".

 

YAWN.

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  • 2 weeks later...

End3...

 

I provide a number of illustrations of actual persecution. Those things aren't happening in Canada or the United States. If I am wrong, please provide the information along with website addresses and/or name of author and publication, plus date of publication.

 

End3, I've given you three months. How much longer do you think you will need to find the information?

 

Or, in lieu of information, shall I accept your total lack of response as "Yes, it is a lie that Christians are being persecuted in North America"? After all, "no answer means yes," as my sibs and I used to say when we were kids.

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