Im A Christian Again

[Pete]

I'm also a Christian but with some big doubts, and I can relate to those who fall away from trust in the Lord Jesus because they feel constrained by the Christian lifestyle and church life. And so I can't agree with some of you who seem to think that the only reason people 'deconvert' is because of the supposed obvious logic of the atheist's position.

 

I can certainly relate to wanting to break out and swear with others (not at people but in other ways), or have a cigarette, or have sex with someone to whom you are not married. If you have grown up in a conservative and morally restrictive environment then the tempation for this is enormous.

[lunaticheathen]

I see a few people on the cusp who are not certain whether they want to give up on Him or not. I was sort of hoping to target these individuals (but again I am not going to go out of my way. I am just going to share my life).

 

Yeah, you want to gather up the straying sheep, but have no stomach to tame the wolves. It's the same cowardice that keeps you in the faith.

 

Also what I find strange is that people here do not believe in Jesus because they believe His ways are not true but they have not come to some alternative truth either.

 

You show how much you've read this board (none) with this statement. And your failure to grasp shades of gray. Maybe you are better off in a "childlike faith" of blacks and whites. Do colors frighten you?

 

A lot of people here are angry (not all, but some). I can understand that. I can see from the way people attacked me in this thread that they are angry.

 

Oh yes, the old "you people are soooo angry, ZOMG!" attack. Cute. Yes, we should be peaches and cream to people who tell us we're going to burn in hell for not buying into the genocidal, inhuman, psychotic faith that has destroyed nations, families, individual people and psyches! We shouldn't be HURT by a system of belief that tells us we're scum and some street magician had to be tortured and killed for a perfect(ly psycho and murderous) god to accept us into ass-kissing land for eternity!

 

Although I have several degrees and I would like to identify myself as an intelligent person, I do not claim to know everything. My relationship with Christ is based on faith..not logic. I have trust in Him and His Word. I believe He loves me and would never do anything to harm me. Its as simple as that. A child-like faith. Perhaps I am dumb by wordly standards, but I believe I am not. I believe in Him. The Bible says that in these last days Christians will be deceived and will go after other concepts/theories/gospels. That is what is happening on this messageboard. It is sad to see.

 

Yes. You're an idiot. Fuck you and your three worthless degrees. I see school didn't teach you how to THINK.

And a prediction that people would later wake up from brainwashing isn't impressive. Peddle your poison elsewhere.

[Crazy Donna]

Well my answer is that I am not really trying to re-convert anyone on this site (like I stated in my opening). I am just simply stating my journey and what happened to me. Of course I have stuck around because I would like to keep reading, learning, and possibly influence others if that is the case...but believe me I am not about to get into some intellectual, theoretical argument with anyone. Its not my style to be honest with you. I dont think that logic convinces anyone to re-convert. Even if I was to engage and provide reasons as to why Jesus is real, there will always be someone that disagrees with me. I think we do not change our hearts through logic. Jesus wants our hearts more than anything.

 

I think it is strange because if a Christian comes in here and is very conservative and follows all the laws and does things right, then people jump down their back and call them fundamentalist. If a Christian is open-minded and accepting, then people on this board will call them not real Christians who do not follow the Bible. You cant win. You all have pretty much made up your minds that you do not want to believe in Him anymore. Thats fine. I see a few people on the cusp who are not certain whether they want to give up on Him or not. I was sort of hoping to target these individuals (but again I am not going to go out of my way. I am just going to share my life).

 

Also what I find strange is that people here do not believe in Jesus because they believe His ways are not true but they have not come to some alternative truth either. A lot of people here are angry (not all, but some). I can understand that. I can see from the way people attacked me in this thread that they are angry.

 

Although I have several degrees and I would like to identify myself as an intelligent person, I do not claim to know everything. My relationship with Christ is based on faith..not logic. I have trust in Him and His Word. I believe He loves me and would never do anything to harm me. Its as simple as that. A child-like faith. Perhaps I am dumb by wordly standards, but I believe I am not. I believe in Him. The Bible says that in these last days Christians will be deceived and will go after other concepts/theories/gospels. That is what is happening on this messageboard. It is sad to see.

Well, Justyna. Well well well.

 

You have come here to post your story and while you're at it, try to reconvert us. But you totally don't understand what it is like to be an ex christian. Your posts are blatant evidence of that.

 

You wrote "Also what I find strange is that people here do not believe in jesus because they believe his ways are not true but they have not come to some alternative truth either."

 

That is NOT what the deconverting experience is for many, many people.

 

I did not give my faith away. I grieved for my faith when I deconverted. I was a mess. I looked for god everywhere, but he never, ever showed himself to me. I had strong faith, which was dismantled when I realised that in my situation, god either had to be a liar (and not uphold his end of the bargain, by showing himself to me, filling me with the holy spirit, answering to my altruistic, faithful prayers at least occasionally, or giving me peace) or he had to not exist.

 

I don't believe in jesus because there is nothing in my experience as a human being that supports his existence, either in ancient times as a living person, or now as the son of god. I looked. I looked for god harder than anything I have ever done before. I wanted a relationship with jesus so badly it hurt. You cannot comprehend how tough my life was while I was a christian, and how many times I sat up praying desperately for help, or for god to show himself to me, or for god to at least let something go right in my life. Losing my faith was the last thing I wanted. Do not cheapen that by making judgements about what my motives or my experiences are. Don't you dare.

 

Why do I need an alternative truth? Why do I need a truth with a capital T? My life is just fine now. If god was so good to me, why did everything good that ever happened to me happen after I lost my faith?

 

You also wrote

"I think it is strange because if a Christian comes in here and is very conservative and follows all the laws and does things right, then people jump down their back and call them fundamentalist. If a Christian is open-minded and accepting, then people on this board will call them not real Christians who do not follow the Bible. You cant win. You all have pretty much made up your minds that you do not want to believe in Him anymore. Thats fine. I see a few people on the cusp who are not certain whether they want to give up on Him or not. I was sort of hoping to target these individuals (but again I am not going to go out of my way. I am just going to share my life)."

 

I'm going to try to explain something to you that you may not understand. Or you may CHOOSE not to understand. Your choice.

 

If you're a christian, chances are you believe in the world wide flood, in which Noah and his family were the only human beings who were given the opportunity to escape god's wrath by building an Ark and riding out the flood.

 

Now, if you're a christian, you have to believe also that your god is a loving god. That god, in the terms that you know him, is the most compassionate being in existence.

 

On the same hand, you also have to believe that god is all knowing. That he knows every single thing that could possibly happen before it happened.

 

So you put these two things together, and you get a god, who created human beings who are living, thinking people like yourself. He created these people knowing that they would sin, even before he created them. He knew that they would sin, and that ultimately he would kill them by drowning them to death in the deluge.

 

Your god created people for the explicit purpose of killing them horribly for something he engineered them to do. He made them knowing they would sin. He could have made them unable to sin, so he wouldn't need to kill them. But he didn't.

 

He created human beings like you, who feel, think, fail sometimes, try real hard to do the right thing, and love each other. He created human beings like you and me. And he created them with the explicit purpose of killing them by drowning. Drowning is a horrible, distressing way to die. Imagine the fear. Imagine knowing you're going to die for a minute, with all that water pressing onto you.

 

Your god created people so that he could do that to them. He knew they would sin. He made them. He knew ultimately what would happen, but still created people so he could kill them horribly.

 

Now, you are going to read what I posted there, and have an emotional reaction. Are you having one right now? This is important. Your mind will start to produce reasons that will argue against what I just wrote. I want you to reply to this post with those reasons. I framed that story in terms which portray your god as a malevolent, evil being who treats humanity like a dirty tissue and throws it away. You will read that and have an emotional reaction. It will upset you.

 

But the purpose of what I wrote is not to upset you. It is to make you think of reasons why your god would have done this. Because I went through a lot of reasons too. But none of those reasons made any sense to me. "God's ways are not our ways" is not a sufficient explanation of what happened. Why would god slaughter people like that?

 

Now, it's similar to a ten year old boy who steals a matchbox car. Lets say his name is Tim, and he steals a toy car at the age of ten. It's not an expensive toy car. Lets say in this hypothetical situation, Tim lives an exemplary life. He is not a 'christian' but he somehow never breaks any of the commandments or sins. He is a moral, model human being.

 

What happens to Tim for this one insignificant indiscretion?

 

According to your worldview, Tim is tortured for an eternity in hell. No escape. Hell is not for rehabilitation, it is the unavoidable punishment for an eternity that is the consequence of a minor indiscretion. Imagine once that you said the word 'fuck' and you weren't a christian. You too could be in hell.

 

Now, christians have to believe that god is just and kind. So they have to believe that Tim burning for an eternity for stealing a matchbox car is RIGHT.

 

I am guessing that what I just wrote is probably upsetting you. That is not it's intention. I want you to instead think of the reasons why what I'm saying is wrong, and post them for me.

 

See, I looked at the above situations, and realised that god could not be loving and kill all those people, and he could not be just and torture someone for an eternity for a minor indiscretion. That is not justice. And I don't think that anyone who thinks that an eternity of torture for stealing a matchbox car is anything less than morally reprehensible. That is sick. Why does a tiny act like that deserve burning for eternity? Why? How is that just? And how can someone who believes that that IS justice be a good person?

 

Now, to belief. I don't believe in god. I used to, but then I realised that if the god of abraham was real, he was either a liar or very very evil, or both. I was let down profoundly by your god. I sought him everywhere. He either hates me and wants me to go to hell, or he doesn't exist. Now, I say he could possibly hate me because if he does exist, he has kept none of his promises to me, has not revealed himself, and clearly wants me to not believe, so that he can send me to hell. I am expendable, just like the victims of the flood. That is one rationalisation for what is going on.

 

But a better explanation, that fits, is that god doesn't exist. No great parent in the sky hates me. There is nothing there.

 

I await your response.

[Guest I Love Dog]

Well I never really looked too deeply into apologetics to be honest with you. I know that apologetics are used to try to defend a position through the systematic use of reason. That is fine and all, and I see nothing wrong with people who do this, but I think it comes down to faith. I think there are things in the Bible that are supernatural and defy reason and logic..they are supernatural (for instance Jesus being born of a virgin). So in that respect I think a lot of people have a lot of problems with the Bible and Jesus because they want to know everything and prove everything, and that will never be done. Not untill He comes back and reveals everything to us once and for all.

 

Ive always had a real child-like faith. Some call it a gift. I struggled a year ago with my faith but have found my way back. I personally do not need to know everything in order to believe in Jesus. I dont have to understand everything..somethings are a mystery to me but I do know that blessed ar those that believe but do not see. I also think that somethings are not for us to know and understand. God is very mysterious and we will never know everything about Him.

 

I think its fine to study apologetics, but I personally dont need it. I try to read up on stuff thats about it.

 

So was Horus born of a virgin, and Mithras. Mithras birthday is 25th December.

 

The Jesus story is just motifs from previous religions and gods and myths, there's nothing real about it. I understand your child-like faith, it's like kids believe in Santa Claus and Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny. They are very real to kids, but not real, in fact.

[Realist]

Realist--

 

I have not lied on this messageboard once. I have been completely honest. I shared my story because I was once deconverting and have since changed my mind. I am not arguing with anyone and I did not come with a list of arguments to try to change your mind. Even one poster said it was strange that I did not reply with rebuttals to this thread. They were stunned that I was simply sharing my story and nothing more. You are trying to make me a liar and actually I am not. I was restating that I am here not to re-convert others because you accused me of doing that earlier. I was just emphasizing once again that I am not. You can believe what you want, but you seem to be paranoid about liars and that the whole world is lying to you. You are actually living a lie right now by not following Him, so I can understand where your mindset comes from. I hope you find the Truth. I sincerely hope you do

 

... Once again you are so way off the mark! Your statement:

 

but you seem to be paranoid about liars and that the whole world is lying to you.

 

... in fact I have a FAR better attitude towards humans than YOU obviously do! I respect the average person on this planet as being far more honest than I have seen in YEARS of being around fundies and born again christians! Normal people do not generally have ulterior motives like your lot do! This breed of christian has a GREAT problem with distorting truths, they do NOT wish to know truths and often pass on total garbage when they have not even bothered checking facts on a matter. Publically we have seen this recently with the latest ark discovery and also the creation museum is a great example of dishonesty at its best! Fundies also wish to stay ignorant when it suits their cause! Dishonesty and half truths are a daily part of their lives!

 

Since my years of giving loads of free time to charities, EMS services etc, I have seen a COMPLETE DIFFERENT side of people religion trys to hide! They want to tar everyone on this planet as evil! Basically people are NOT evil! Whether you wish to believe that or not, maybe you should get out of your little cocoon and do something USEFUL for society! See unpaid volunteers who have had the backs off their hands ripped off doing nothing but plucking people off stricken yachts because of their love for humanity then returning again to the yacht to rescue a family; see paramedics and fireman who have pulled people from burning vehicles at large risk to their own lives; see people who give untold unpaid time to helping distressed and sick animals with no other reason than love involved. People GENERALLY are NOT evil! Only religion has cursed them with that tag with THEIR selfish motives in mind!

[OnceConvinced]

. You all have pretty much made up your minds that you do not want to believe in Him anymore.

 

There you go misrepresenting us again. Surely you have been here long enough to know that this is not the case. We don't believe because we are UNABLE to believe, not because we DON'T want to believe. If something is true and there is proof of it's truth then we will have no choice to believe. Do you no longer believe in Santa because you don't want to believe in Santa? Or is it because you are unable to believe anymore?

 

Being an ex-Christian is not a rebellious thing, like it was for you. Being an Ex-Christian is an inevitable outcome of disbelief.

 

 

Thats fine. I see a few people on the cusp who are not certain whether they want to give up on Him or not. I was sort of hoping to target these individuals (but again I am not going to go out of my way. I am just going to share my life).

You're more likely to find those people at Christian sites.

 

Also what I find strange is that people here do not believe in Jesus because they believe His ways are not true but they have not come to some alternative truth either.

 

I doubt that's true, but even if it is, why does some alternate truth have to be found? Some people can live with mystery and some can accept that they don't they just know. Is it so terrible not to know?

 

A lot of people here are angry (not all, but some). I can understand that. I can see from the way people attacked me in this thread that they are angry.

 

If you had been a real ex-Christian you would know that anger is just a phase that you go through in the deconversion process. What have you actually been doing here on this site? Did you just come in become a member with the intention of coming back to pretend you were an ex-CHristian who'd reconverted? Was it all just a mission goal for you?

 

Also people here are angry at you because of your wilfil misrepresentation of us. You have been misrepresenting us here in this post and in previous posts. It would be like one of us going to a Christian website and telling everyone there they were all delusional. There would be a lot of angry Christians baying for our blood and we'd be banned immediately.

 

Although I have several degrees and I would like to identify myself as an intelligent person, I do not claim to know everything. My relationship with Christ is based on faith..not logic. I have trust in Him and His Word. I believe He loves me and would never do anything to harm me. Its as simple as that. A child-like faith. Perhaps I am dumb by wordly standards, but I believe I am not. I believe in Him. The Bible says that in these last days Christians will be deceived and will go after other concepts/theories/gospels. That is what is happening on this messageboard. It is sad to see.

 

It's sad that you would throw away rational thought and logic to rely on faith. Very sad indeed. You wish to go from thinking for yourself to believing whatever your told. Why?

[Phanta]

Realist--

 

I have not lied on this messageboard once. I have been completely honest. I shared my story because I was once deconverting and have since changed my mind. I am not arguing with anyone and I did not come with a list of arguments to try to change your mind. Even one poster said it was strange that I did not reply with rebuttals to this thread. They were stunned that I was simply sharing my story and nothing more. You are trying to make me a liar and actually I am not. I was restating that I am here not to re-convert others because you accused me of doing that earlier. I was just emphasizing once again that I am not. You can believe what you want, but you seem to be paranoid about liars and that the whole world is lying to you. You are actually living a lie right now by not following Him, so I can understand where your mindset comes from. I hope you find the Truth. I sincerely hope you do

 

Yuck.

[Phanta]

I hear you saying that you're not trying to reconvert anyone, but your manner and tone and other direct statements stand as a contradiction to that. You're doing it in a way you hope people will not react badly to, but you're still doing it. Not owning the effect your behavior has on others doesn't make it effect them any less, but it does destroy trust and foster resentment.

 

What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

 

Well my answer is that I am not really trying to re-convert anyone on this site (like I stated in my opening). I am just simply stating my journey and what happened to me. Of course I have stuck around because I would like to keep reading, learning, and possibly influence others if that is the case...but believe me I am not about to get into some intellectual, theoretical argument with anyone. Its not my style to be honest with you. I dont think that logic convinces anyone to re-convert. Even if I was to engage and provide reasons as to why Jesus is real, there will always be someone that disagrees with me. I think we do not change our hearts through logic. Jesus wants our hearts more than anything.

 

I think it is strange because if a Christian comes in here and is very conservative and follows all the laws and does things right, then people jump down their back and call them fundamentalist. If a Christian is open-minded and accepting, then people on this board will call them not real Christians who do not follow the Bible. You cant win. You all have pretty much made up your minds that you do not want to believe in Him anymore. Thats fine. I see a few people on the cusp who are not certain whether they want to give up on Him or not. I was sort of hoping to target these individuals (but again I am not going to go out of my way. I am just going to share my life).

 

It seems like you're a little confused about what you're intention is here, and it's coming off as pretty disingenuous.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

I'm also a Christian but with some big doubts, and I can relate to those who fall away from trust in the Lord Jesus because they feel constrained by the Christian lifestyle and church life. And so I can't agree with some of you who seem to think that the only reason people 'deconvert' is because of the supposed obvious logic of the atheist's position.

 

I can certainly relate to wanting to break out and swear with others (not at people but in other ways), or have a cigarette, or have sex with someone to whom you are not married. If you have grown up in a conservative and morally restrictive environment then the tempation for this is enormous.

 

People are surely complicated and diverse.

 

Welcome, Pete.

 

Phanta

[oddbird1963]

I'm also a Christian but with some big doubts, and I can relate to those who fall away from trust in the Lord Jesus because they feel constrained by the Christian lifestyle and church life. And so I can't agree with some of you who seem to think that the only reason people 'deconvert' is because of the supposed obvious logic of the atheist's position.

 

I can certainly relate to wanting to break out and swear with others (not at people but in other ways), or have a cigarette, or have sex with someone to whom you are not married. If you have grown up in a conservative and morally restrictive environment then the tempation for this is enormous.

 

 

Hi Pete. Welcome to this site. I hope you get a lot out of coming to understand the mind of ex-christians and a few others who never considered themselves Christians.

 

I don't think you've read most of the "ex-timonies" on this site yet.

 

It seems to be your opinion that the majority of deconverts are just tired of lifestyle restrictions. While that may be true in the case of a few, the vast majority have come to realize that christianity cannot be true based on logical reasons or, for lack of a better term, empirical reasons (the religion just does not work, and the way it works when it appears to work is better accounted for by human, non-supernatural explanations).

 

I urge you not to fall for the trap that so many Christians who involve themselves with this site: read and understand before you come to conclusions biased and jaded by your indoctrinated worldview. We have the advantage of truly understanding Christianity from the inside. You will do yourself a real service by taking the time to understand ex-Christians, whom you seem to misunderstand at this point.

 

Once again. Welcome.

[florduh]

I'm also a Christian but with some big doubts, and I can relate to those who fall away from trust in the Lord Jesus because they feel constrained by the Christian lifestyle and church life. And so I can't agree with some of you who seem to think that the only reason people 'deconvert' is because of the supposed obvious logic of the atheist's position.

 

I can certainly relate to wanting to break out and swear with others (not at people but in other ways), or have a cigarette, or have sex with someone to whom you are not married. If you have grown up in a conservative and morally restrictive environment then the tempation for this is enormous.

Hello Pete.

 

You know, if you feel constrained by serving the Lord, are you really a Christian? Living for Jesus should be more fulfilling than living for the flesh. Doesn't praying to have your evil desires taken away work? Why do you think not?

 

Leaving the religion because you hate following the rules is nothing at all like coming to the understanding that it is a false belief. People who feel they want to rebel against God obviously still believe in that God but are just fed up temporarily. They always go back since they never really stopped believing.

[mwc]

Well I used to think that hell did not exist either. I came across this site. I am not saying that this is absolute proof, but it did make me think. This Christian woman name Mary K Baxter experienced hell for herself when Jesus took her there. She explains that He kept her safe in hell, but was able to give her a glimpse of what was going to happen to those who do not follow Him. She said He did this to show others the TRuth. There are like 8+ different audio tapes of what she experienced. It was horrific! I listened to them all oneday! She explained how she saw the tourture and how Chrisitans who used to be Christians had it the worst...eek! I know some may argue this women's credibility but she is like a middle aged woman who is married has children and did NOT become famous from this. She made some money cause she wrote a book but not a lot. She has NO reason to lie. At least check it out. CHeck out the first few audio tapes of what she saw and experienced in HELL! This is not scientific proof, but again she is not a televangaist so she has not reason to lie.

 

http://www.doeshellexist.com/mary-k-baxter.html

I read this book.

 

It was like if Dante was a retarded middle-aged woman that wasn't creative and couldn't write. I agree that it was horrific.

 

I found it interesting that "jesus" takes this stupid lady down to "hell" through the magical wormhole and shows her all these things. Don't you? You say you do. I mean here these people are getting tortured for all eternity and they haven't even been judged yet. How can that be? Did we miss judgment day? Apparently "jesus" isn't the most just guy in anywhere since he doesn't care and doesn't lift a finger to help any of these people from their pre-judgment day predicament.

 

mwc

[buffettphan]

Well my answer is that I am not really trying to re-convert anyone on this site (like I stated in my opening). I am just simply stating my journey and what happened to me. Of course I have stuck around because I would like to keep reading, learning, and possibly influence others if that is the case...but believe me I am not about to get into some intellectual, theoretical argument with anyone. Its not my style to be honest with you.

 

 

I think you were trying to say that getting into intellectual, theoretical arguments is not your style. Perhaps the words in blue were a freudian slip or something, But I agree -- Honesty is not your style. If it were, you would have said your piece and bid us farewell. Instead, you preach... and preach... and preach.

 

Goodbye.

 

 

 

 

[Ouroboros]

I'm also a Christian but with some big doubts, and I can relate to those who fall away from trust in the Lord Jesus because they feel constrained by the Christian lifestyle and church life.

I think there are very few who does. And those who does that will never really leave their beliefs, they will still believe deep down. This means, they are more likely to eventually go back.

 

And so I can't agree with some of you who seem to think that the only reason people 'deconvert' is because of the supposed obvious logic of the atheist's position.

There's yet even other reasons. I didn't leave Christianity because I wanted to "sin." My life didn't change much, or at all, after my de-conversion, except that I didn't pray, read the Bible, or go to church anymore.

 

But reason and logic was definitely part of it, but mostly I think it was the lack of any "God-feeling" (if that makes any sense). Things didn't make sense. The world, my experiences, reality, didn't match my religious beliefs. And in that moment I couldn't feel any presence of God or spiritual influence. I prayed. I asked God to convince me and prove to me that he actually did exist. I never got any answer.

 

I can certainly relate to wanting to break out and swear with others (not at people but in other ways), or have a cigarette, or have sex with someone to whom you are not married. If you have grown up in a conservative and morally restrictive environment then the tempation for this is enormous.

Pfft. I was never part of my desires. I did start smoking cigars after, but it was never part of why I de-converted. I have never cheated on my wife, even though I had the chance several times (yup, I did. Even an ex-model was hitting on me once and give me her phone number. Did I call? Nope. In truth, even though she was pretty, I wasn't even attracted to the proposition.) So if you believe that people de-convert because they want to go on a "sin-fest," you're gravely mistaken and don't have the first clue about how humans really work.

[oddbird1963]

So if you believe that people de-convert because they want to go on a "sin-fest," you're gravely mistaken and don't have the first clue about how humans really work.

 

Well stated, Hans - er - Ouroboros!

 

I think what people of all stripes are looking for is a way to situate their lives to be rewarding and fulfilling on many levels. Even godless, non-Christian, atheistic sek-ewe-lar humanistic liberals know that choices have consequences and that engaging in dangerous, self-destructive and unfulfilling behaviors will not help them situate their lives to reach the best possible life for themselves.

 

The problem with the strains of Christianity I have encountered is that it's teachers and adherents do not paint a reality based picture of humanity. By their accounts, humans are these compulsive alcoholic, sex-addict, addictive personalities that can't do anything but commit self destructive acts without some particular evangelical version of Jesus in their lives. Ignore Jesus, and you go back to being an alcoholic, sex-addict, gambling , swearing, spouse-abusing jerk of a human being (the default condition, according to evangelical theology).

 

I think this is a picture of a humanity that is grossly skewed by people whose interest it is to get butts in seats and dollars in offering plates. It's not at all realistic and it ignores the countless millions of adults in this world who manage just fine without their comic strip super hero Jesus. In addition, it grinds many people's already struggling self esteem into hamburger meat, potentially causing them to become the cartoon version of humanity that their church paints.

[Sconnor]

I have read everyone's comments. I was not able to comment before because I was busy. I guess it is what it is. I just shared my story, if it helps someone, then great. If not, then I can say I genuinely tried. I know there are a lot of theories out there, a lot of science, and a lot of new information. They are all great and good to know but they are not going to save you. They all lead to dead ends. I do know that for a fact now. I guess that is all I wanted to say at this point.

 

.... I think you need reminding of one of your earlier posts!

 

Never Been Taught To Think For Myself Where to start? Rate Topic: #1 Justyna

 

Doubter

 

 

Group: Believer Posts: 40 Joined: 09-September 09 Gender:Female Location:USA Any Gods?:Jesus Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:59 PM

 

How sad is this? Im college eduacted, have almost 3 degrees now but becasue I was following Christianity I know nothing about the Sciences, History, and the like. I feel like an f.u.c.king (<---- had to say it)idiot. I mean I was never taught to question anything or have my own ideas and opinions. I am finding out that I am more or a creative person than I gave myself credit. Of the emotions I am having...joy, excitment, happiness, anger is one of them. I suppose this is normal to experience...whose with me here? Advice?

 

... what a great shame ... you leave here and you STILL do not know how to think for yourself! I also believe you TOTALLY when you say:

 

I know nothing about the Sciences, History, and the like.

 

That STILL applies! It just shows, a person does NOT have to be bright to hold degrees!

 

WTF!?!? She supposedly has three degrees. One of them is Psychology -- a SCIENCE that deals with mental processes and behavior.

 

Where in the hell did she get her degree, if she knows nothing about the sciences? A Cracker Jack’s box? Online?

 

At any major university you take other science classes to fulfill your basic requirements -- More so when you major in a science.

 

In any case, if she really got her degree in Psychology it wasn’t with an accredited university that actually teaches science.

 

She doesn’t have a degree in Psychology. Her credibility is shot.

 

I smell a lying sack-o-shit christian bull-shitter.

 

--S.

[Ancey]

So if you believe that people de-convert because they want to go on a "sin-fest," you're gravely mistaken and don't have the first clue about how humans really work.

 

I'm also agreeing with you on this.

 

When I was a Christian, I got great grades, did my work, didn't smoke or drink, didn't engage in casual sex or get in trouble.

 

When I de-converted... I didn't change. It's just how I was- I didn't see the point in wrecking up my body with drugs or alcohol, and though I certainly now don't mind the idea of having sex as much, I still just don't want casual sex- I just want it to be with someone special. And I still got great grades- spent my whole senior year as an atheist, got to be 4th in my class- even jumped up from 6th last year because some people slid through the year.

 

Perhaps the only difference is I swear a bit more- but I actually conditioned myself off using 'God' or 'Jesus' as curse words, because the words don't mean anything to me anymore.

[Dibllsmek]

Good for you. Do what you want. I believe people should follow any path they want. All different paths to the same destination.

[FourDogBrewing]

Good for you. Do what you want. I believe people should follow any path they want. All different paths to the same destination.

 

Here is the destination: http://whathappensafteridie.com/

 

lamo

[lunaticheathen]

I'm also a Christian but with some big doubts, and I can relate to those who fall away from trust in the Lord Jesus because they feel constrained by the Christian lifestyle and church life. And so I can't agree with some of you who seem to think that the only reason people 'deconvert' is because of the supposed obvious logic of the atheist's position.

 

I can certainly relate to wanting to break out and swear with others (not at people but in other ways), or have a cigarette, or have sex with someone to whom you are not married. If you have grown up in a conservative and morally restrictive environment then the tempation for this is enormous.

 

Hi Pete. Read the ex-timonies. I don't think nary a one of them says someone left because they wanted to "sin sin sin!" Seriously, that's childish, and doesn't last. Take Justyna here. She got her sin on, and is back in the self-righteous, snotty, and intellectually blind position she so decried.

 

I deconverted, but never became an atheist. I am now an animistic pagan. I feel this is my true default position though. I can't find myself believing christianity - I tried, it doesn't make sense, or "feel right." Also, the god of the bible is an amoral asshole. If he does exist, he's not worth worshiping. So not only "logical atheists" leave your faith.

 

I personally don't give a shit what other people believe. Justyna can believe in y'alls Christ Zombie till she croaks, I don't care - but I am annoyed at her disingenuous prattling on about how we will all find "the Truth" and her evangelizing in other threads, in the RANTS SECTION. It shows how little she knows of us, and doesn't empathize at all, despite saying she "deconverted." I call bullshit.

[Antlerman]

I'm also a Christian but with some big doubts, and I can relate to those who fall away from trust in the Lord Jesus because they feel constrained by the Christian lifestyle and church life.

That's interesting why you (or others) would make that assumption. It's seems to be more a convenient thing to believe, rather than it being based on philosophical, reasoned differences. Is it that you can't imagine an alternative belief as having any credibility? I'd seriously like to hear your response.

 

For your information, my leaving the Christian system had nothing whatsoever to do with lifestyle choices, nor the people, nor lusting after sin, nor rebellion against God, etc. In an nutshell, it simply didn't work to give me what I needed to grow. It could be better understood as moving beyond an adolescent way of looking at things into an emerging adulthood. That's strikingly different than "feeling constrained by the Christian lifestyle and church life."

 

And so I can't agree with some of you who seem to think that the only reason people 'deconvert' is because of the supposed obvious logic of the atheist's position.

I would agree with you as well. People don't convert to Christianity for logic reasons alone, nor is deconversion strictly about logic and reason alone. People are not calculators.

 

I can certainly relate to wanting to break out and swear with others (not at people but in other ways), or have a cigarette, or have sex with someone to whom you are not married.

Again, the assumption that a philosophical choice and view is motivated by base instincts to be a rebellious child. Nothing could be further from the truth on this level we're talking about. That may be the only thing you can conceive it could possibly be coming from your perspective, but I'm hoping that this dialog might broaden your perspective a little. We all gain from that.

 

If you have grown up in a conservative and morally restrictive environment then the tempation for this is enormous.

But that was not the case for me. I grew up in a nominal Christian home with loving parents who identified as Lutheran, never having been forced to go to church, pray, and do all that "Jesus expects this of you" world. I converted to the more conservative forms of Christianity in my early 20's as I was seeking more meaning spiritually in my life. I left it because what it offered was group-identity as a substitute for that. Yes, the unity and community was great on that level, but at a price. There was much, much, much more depth beyond that which that system could not support or open you to. It was their way as Truth, stamping the name Jesus on it through all the supporting Bible verses, just as every church does. God was owned by them in their world of their ideas, justified to them by their interpretation of the Bible as some Authority. I would say that defines the problem with most of Christianity as a system.

 

I look forward to your response.

 

 

BTW, I'm going to respond to Vigile later as time permits.

[Shyone]

Some people lie for emotional reasons - self-esteem issues and all that. Need for attention.

It goes to motive.

 

1. Self esteem

2. Acceptance and praise

3. Money

 

There may be other motives we can't deduce only from her writings and book deal. If she comes out with another book about Jesus taking her to heaven so she could testify about how fluffy the golden streets are, then we might also add insanity.

[Antlerman]

I'm also a Christian but with some big doubts

BTW, I missed this talking point earlier. Since we're very open with you about our thoughts, would you care to share in what sort of areas you have doubts? I'm not asking to poke holes into it, but to hear a point of where we may all be able to relate to each other. You probably have the same doubts as others here, but you respond to it differently, and that becomes a point of discussion.

[Ouroboros]

The problem with the strains of Christianity I have encountered is that it's teachers and adherents do not paint a reality based picture of humanity. By their accounts, humans are these compulsive alcoholic, sex-addict, addictive personalities that can't do anything but commit self destructive acts without some particular evangelical version of Jesus in their lives. Ignore Jesus, and you go back to being an alcoholic, sex-addict, gambling , swearing, spouse-abusing jerk of a human being (the default condition, according to evangelical theology).

 

I think this is a picture of a humanity that is grossly skewed by people whose interest it is to get butts in seats and dollars in offering plates. It's not at all realistic and it ignores the countless millions of adults in this world who manage just fine without their comic strip super hero Jesus. In addition, it grinds many people's already struggling self esteem into hamburger meat, potentially causing them to become the cartoon version of humanity that their church paints.

I think you're absolutely right. Christianity creates some weird, non-realistic, image of human nature. A perverted view of the psyche. Or a straw-man in other words. That makes it easier to sell the idea of "salvation." We're supposed to believe in a fictitious salvation from a skewed and perverted view of human nature. So sick it makes you wanna puke...

[Ouroboros]

When I was a Christian, I got great grades, did my work, didn't smoke or drink, didn't engage in casual sex or get in trouble.

Same here, except the good grades. I believed Jesus was coming back tomorrow, so why care about some stupid grades... I failed miserably in HS because of religion. I didn't have any incentive. Jesus would either take me home to Heaven, or Jesus would miraculously give me enough money or food, even without an education or job. It didn't work. God does *not* count the hairs on your head, just an FYI.

 

When I de-converted... I didn't change. It's just how I was- I didn't see the point in wrecking up my body with drugs or alcohol, and though I certainly now don't mind the idea of having sex as much, I still just don't want casual sex- I just want it to be with someone special. And I still got great grades- spent my whole senior year as an atheist, got to be 4th in my class- even jumped up from 6th last year because some people slid through the year.

That's right. I feel that I can now find the right arguments and reasons to live and live right. Under the religious yoke, every explanation was just an excuse to avoid facing reality or researching how things really worked.

 

Perhaps the only difference is I swear a bit more- but I actually conditioned myself off using 'God' or 'Jesus' as curse words, because the words don't mean anything to me anymore.

Yes. The F-word is my most used swear word.

 

But the funny thing, I think I swear more than I ever did before, but I still do it so rarely that when I do, the kids jump and exclaim: "Dad! You cursed!?" It has a greater impact if not used too often.