Some perspectives

[Brother Jeff]

There is nothing presented they cannot thwart.

Well, we do happen to have truth, facts, reason, rational thought, common sense, and demonstrable reality all on our side...

 

There is no rendering of any passage they cannot refute or ridicule.

That does happen to be generally true. The Bible does contain a lot of material that it easy to ridicule (talking animals, friendly and evil spooks, magically undead folks, flying people, invisible folks who live in the sky, etc. ), and the Bible contains a great deal of grossly inaccurate history and many grossly inaccurate statements concerning matters of fact and science as well.

 

Ours are “doctrines of the Dark Ages”

Yes they are - a Dark Ages for which the Christian Church is largely if not exclusively responsible.

 

theirs have “evolved” beyond such folklore

We don't have "doctrines" or need of them since we deal with reality as it is.

 

Every point, minor or major, when argued from scripture is summarily dismissed in light of some "evidence".

If the said point should be dismissed in light of verifiably accurate research or facts, then so be it. It's not hard to debunk your holy book or your religion. As I pointed out before in the "Why do you remain a Christian?" thread, doing so doesn't even require facts per se. All that is required is REASON and BASIC COMMON SENSE. DEAL WITH IT.

 

ExChurchgoers.net you hold your form of “enlightenment“ in your newfound “freedom“ but how do you account for historical events such as the Great Awakening?

How do you account for the fact that Islam is currently the world's fastest growing religion? How do you account for the fact that Hindus can trace disciplic successions back for centuries? ALL religions experience periods of decline and renewal, not just particular brands of Christianity.

 

things leading to the formation of the very nation in which you find yourself!

Pfffftttt!!! O, really? I would love to hear your version of American history...

 

I agree with Luther that unless or until one has a proper view of God he cannot have a proper view of himself.

According to the plain teachings of the Bible, your god is a murderer many times over. Is this the "proper view of God" that we should have since that is what the Bible teaches about God? Do you agree with Luther when he says, "Sin cannot tear you away from him [Christ], even though you commit adultery a hundred times a day and commit as many murders."

 

Do you agree with Luther when he says, "At Sussen, the Devil carried off, last Good Friday, three grooms who had devoted themselves to him."

 

Do you agree with Luther when he says, "Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads...."

 

Do you agree with Luther when he says, "Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God."

 

Do you agree with Luther when he says, "Some [demons] are also in the thick black clouds, which cause hail, lightning and thunder, and poison the air, the pastures and grounds."

 

Do you agree with Luther when he says, "The Devil, too, sometimes steals human children; it is not infrequent for him to carry away infants within the first six weeks after birth, and to substitute in their place imps...."

 

Do you agree with Luther when he says, "The winds are nothing else but good or bad spirits. Hark! how the Devil is puffing and blowing...."

 

Do you agree with these statements of Luther concerning the Jews?

 

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings...are to be taken from them."

 

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews."

 

"What shall we do with...the Jews? I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb."

 

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...set fire to their synagogues or schools and bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them."

 

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...their homes also should be razed and destroyed."

 

Source of Martin Luther quotes: http://www.2think.org/hii/mlquotes.shtml

 

To be continued...

[Brother Jeff]

I'll be continuing my responses tomorrow, if the Magic Sky Man magically wills it... Glory!

[Amethyst]

Do you agree with Luther when he says, "The Devil, too, sometimes steals human children; it is not infrequent for him to carry away infants within the first six weeks after birth, and to substitute in their place imps...."

 

This is so similar to the Pagan belief that fairies would sometimes carry away babies and put changelings in their places. I can't comprehend how fundies cannot see how the religion is an offshoot of Paganism!

[DoubleDee]

This is so similar to the Pagan belief that fairies would sometimes carry away babies and put changelings in their places.  I can't comprehend how fundies cannot see how the religion is an offshoot of Paganism!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can understand why fundies cannot see how the religion is an offshoot of Paganism. Most of them don't study other religions, which would be a sin of course. Even if by chance you found one in a thousand who did study other religions you would just get the 'ol... "the devil planted those likenesses to deceive us" crap.

[Brother Jeff]

Well, the Spook of Kryasst who is also somehow magically Him has magically willed that I continue with my responses this morning. Glory!

 

I took the time to read your typically ignorance-laced, typically judgmental, and typically arrogant rant. I must say since you already have proven yourself to be a typical religious asshole in the "Why Do You Remain a Christian?" thread, your attitude here hardly surprises me.

 

Please do not launch into the tirade on the so-called “atrocities by God”

 

I won't launch into a tirade, but I will once again point out the fact that your god ordered or directly committed the murders of thousands of people, according to the Bible.

 

Exodus 17:13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

 

"Discomfited" is a nice word for MURDERED, with your god's approval. Please explain how MASS MURDER is somehow magically not an atrocity. Thanks.

 

Exodus 32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

 

Please explain how this event is somehow magically not an atrocity. Thanks.

 

Numbers 11:33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.

 

Praise God! Glory! Please explain how striking folks that you claim to love with a very great plague is somehow magically not an atrocious thing to do. Thanks.

 

Numbers 12: 9-10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed. And the magic cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

 

Bless the Lord! Miriam is a leper! Glory! Please explain how your god's striking Sister Miriam with leprosy is somehow magically not an atrocious thing to do. Thanks.

 

Numbers 15:32-36 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

 

Put to death for gathering sticks on the wrong day? Please explain how such a ridiculously extreme punishment for such a minor offense somehow magically equals "justice". Please explain how putting someone to death for gathering sticks is somehow magically not an atrocity. Thanks.

 

Numbers 21: 35 So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land.

 

Glory! Please explain how this is somehow magically not an atrocity. Thanks.

 

Joshua 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

 

Praze the Lard! Please explain how this atrocity is somehow magically not an atrocity. Thanks.

 

Joshua 8:25 And so it was, that all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of Ai.

 

Hey, 12000 men in one day! Bless the Lord! Glory! Please explain how this atrocity is somehow magically not an atrocity. Thanks.

 

Joshua 10:10 And the LORD discomfited (murdered) them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.

 

Whoo-hoo!! Get 'em, Lord! Hall-lay-LOOH-Yah!!

 

Well, I could go on posting atrocities either ordered or directly committed by your god for hours probably, but I think I've made my point. I'm looking forward to your explanations of how these atrocities are somehow magically not atrocities. Glory!

 

To be continued...

[Brother Jeff]

This accusation is made by the very ones who claim to know (but have rejected) what the scriptures teach.

We do know what the Bible teaches. We reject it because it is demonstrably FALSE.

 

Are we to consider that each individual has the sense to “pull himself up by his bootstraps” and discontinue what is in his heart to practice?

People change all the time, whether its a matter of educating themselves or getting physically fit or breaking a bad habit like smoking, or whatever. So yeah, people obviously have the ability to change for the better just as they have the ability to change for worse. What is "in a person's heart" is a product largely of their culture, upbringing, and circumstances. Surely you do not disagree with this fact. Or do you?

 

Surely you do not disagree with the list from Galatians 5:19-21?

Surely you do not disagree with the list from Galatians 5:22-23? You don't? Then why aren't you busy manifesting those Fruits of the Spook?

 

These practices exist daily and moment by moment in the world but they DID NOT and DO NOT exist as normal conduct in the Christian church!

PLEASE! Immoral acts of all kinds most certainly ARE normal conduct in the Christian church! Or don't you keep up with the news? Immorality and criminal conduct is RAMPANT in the Christian church!

 

What fills the pages of newspapers is not crimes committed by Christians

Really? How many years has it been since you actually picked up a newspaper and read it? News reports of crimes committed by Christians are actually fairly commonplace.

 

but the scoundrels of Enron or your local jailbird never claim to be following Christ

But our war-mongering moron of a president does. What about him?

 

To be continued...

[DoubleDee]

Ignorant fundie

That is a fact you must deal with. Sure, there are “good“, “moral” and “nice” persons who may never darken the door of a church but the scoundrels of Enron or your local jailbird never claim to be following Christ. Throughout the centuries Christians are not the ones who become the reason for societal fears and ills

 

Perhaps this info will shed some much needed light into your dark soul.

Link to info below

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Federal Bureau of Prisons does have statistics on religious

affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of

inmates per religion category:

 

Response Number %

---------------------------- --------

Catholic: 29267 39.164%

Protestant: 26162 35.008%

Muslim: 5435 7.273%

American Indian: 2408 3.222%

Nation: 1734 2.320%

Rasta: 1485 1.987%

Jewish: 1325 1.773%

Church of Christ: 1303 1.744%

Pentecostal: 1093 1.463%

Moorish: 1066 1.426%

Buddhist: 882 1.180%

Jehovah Witness: 665 0.890%

Adventist: 621 0.831%

Orthodox: 375 0.502%

Mormon: 298 0.399%

Scientology: 190 0.254%

Atheist: 156 0.209%

Hindu: 119 0.159%

Santeria: 117 0.157%

Sikh: 14 0.019%

Bahai: 9 0.012%

Krishna: 7 0.009%

 

<snip>

 

Now, let's just deal with the nasty Christian types, no?

 

Catholic 29267 39.164%

Protestant 26162 35.008%

Rasta 1485 1.987%

Jewish 1325 1.773%

Church of Christ 1303 1.744%

Pentecostal 1093 1.463%

Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%

Adventist 621 0.831%

Orthodox 375 0.502%

Mormon 298 0.399%

 

Judeo-Christian Total 62594 83.761% (of the 74731 total responses)

Total Known Responses 74731

 

Not unexpected as a result. Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now what were you saying?

 

Oh yeah, more Bullshit that we've heard hundreds of times.

 

Go preach to the ignorant that don't bother studying and researching for themselves. You won't find any converts here! We found our way out of hell already.

[Ro-bear]

This is a quote from Jonathan Edwards. I hesitate to make him known to you lest I subject him to your infamous vitriol, but he can stand on his own intellect and suffer no harm from you..

 

To whom is this addressed? How many of us do you think have not been exposed to this fanatic? For generations, high school juniors have been subjected to his hysterical sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". As a teacher of high school juniors, I never fail to subject my classes to him. He is useful for teaching figurative language and elements of persuasive rhetoric.

 

Edwards was obviously a very committed and intelligent man, but his ideas of justice were perverted.

[D. Paul]

Edwards was one major league asshole. Read this and tell me he's not a prick of the first order:

 

http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/Warnings/justice.htm

 

He thinks we should be grateful if his god chooses not to subject us to everlasting torment. How can someone see that as just under any circumstances. His logic is stunning. Our sins, no matter how minute, are infinite since they come against an infinite being, so our punishment should be infinite. GAAAAAA! My head is about to explode. What kind of crap was this guy on?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Right. His basic, practical, biblical understanding is the very thing you will not tolerate. Address the doctrines. Let's see how you (mis)handle them and then attempt to refute them. I've said it before and it still fits: Yours are mere opinions of what you read and think you understand. Your understanding is darkened and you cal it light. So ridicule is all you have. DEAL WITH A DOCTRINE like Edwards has explained and show where he is wrong.

 

I love it when you mangle passages and then contort to pat yourselves on the back.

[D. Paul]

We do know what the Bible teaches. We reject it because it is demonstrably FALSE.

People change all the time, whether its a matter of educating themselves or getting physically fit or breaking a bad habit like smoking, or whatever. So yeah, people obviously have the ability to change for the better just as they have the ability to change for worse. What is "in a person's heart" is a product largely of their culture, upbringing, and circumstances. Surely you do not disagree with this fact. Or do you?

Surely you do not disagree with the list from Galatians 5:22-23? You don't? Then why aren't you busy manifesting those Fruits of the Spook?

PLEASE! Immoral acts of all kinds most certainly ARE normal conduct in the Christian church! Or don't you keep up with the news? Immorality and criminal conduct is RAMPANT in the Christian church!

Really? How many years has it been since you actually picked up a newspaper and read it? News reports of crimes committed by Christians are actually fairly commonplace.

But our war-mongering moron of a president does. What about him?

 

To be continued...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Whelp, gawrshk! Ah gess thett thirr jis tubbout settlz itt now donut?

 

Don't bother "continuing", Jeff. I aint worth it. See y'all...

[Brother Jeff]

Yours are mere opinions

Says a man who has offered nothing but opinions...

 

think you understand

We obviously understand much more than you do.

 

Your understanding is darkened

Our understanding is darkened? Wow, talk about hypocrisy!

 

POT. KETTLE. BLACK.

 

So ridicule is all you have.

No, we have truth, facts, reason, rational thought, common sense, and demonstrable reality as well.

 

I love it when you mangle passages

What mangled passages? I love it when you repeatedly dodge or ignore questions asked of you.

[crazy-tiger]

Yours are mere opinions of what you read and think you understand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So are yours, mine, Edwards, Falwell, Chick, Hovind... everyone.

 

 

If you want to use that as a comeback, it's gonna bite you on the ass.

[Brother Jeff]

Whelp, gawrshk! Ah gess thett thirr jis tubbout settlz itt now donut?

 

Don't bother "continuing", Jeff. I aint worth it. See y'all...

 

Asshole. Pharisee.

 

 

No, you certainly aren't worth it.

 

Dodge. Ignore. Run. How typical.

 

Goodbye again, Brother D. Paul! See ya!

[Ouroboros]

Right. His basic, practical, biblical understanding is the very thing you will not tolerate. Address the doctrines. Let's see how you (mis)handle them and then attempt to refute them. I've said it before and it still fits: Yours are mere opinions of what you read and think you understand.

And yours are mere opinions of what you read and think you understand, so where does it leave the outcome of the dialogue? Can thesis and antithesis become a synthesis here? Can good (you according to you) and evil (us according to you) ever meet and understand each other?

 

We have been what you are, but have you ever become what we are?

 

Judge not, or you will be judged, is YOUR theology. Do you even believe it?

 

Your understanding is darkened and you cal it light.

I would say it's the reversed. It's pretty clear daylight on our side, and we've been on your side and seen the "light".

 

So ridicule is all you have.

Since you don't understand arguments.

 

DEAL WITH A DOCTRINE like Edwards has explained and show where he is wrong.

No need. No time. No use. You never give a straight answer or response anyway.

 

I love it when you mangle passages and then contort to pat yourselves on the back.

Mangle. Mangle. Pat. Pat.

 

My shoulders are getting a bit numb...

[Mythra]

Ah, the dude just got a little confused. He thought he was in the "post your sermon" section instead of debates.

 

DoubleDee and Brother Jeff: great posts.

 

DPaul: what the hell doctrines are you even talking about? Your little blurb at the start? Or were you expecting us to do a thorough study of Edwards and write a freakin thesis on it?

 

Discussions about doctrine usually begin with a presupposition that the bible is true. Won't get ya too far here. You want to argue doctrine, you better attend Sunday school tomorrow.

[Mythra]

ExChurchgoers.net 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And don't think this went by unnoticed. Dickhead.

[Cerise]

Oh wow, such a long post. I'll be sure to give D. Paul all the attention a post like this deserves...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hmm? Oh yes, sorry.

 

Asshat.

[Ouroboros]

Right and Wrong? HanSolo so proudly proclaimed that he has never cheated on his wife. Who told him this was "right"?

My egotistic mind. I wanted to show you that people can come to the same conclusions of what is right and wrong without having a God whipping their back to do it. (And I mean the picture of right/wrong that fits your world view.)

 

I don't judge anyone that cheats on their spouse. So no, I don't claim it's wrong in any sense. But I knew that you do, so I proved to you that I manage to get to a lifestyle that is considered "morally right" even for you, without the constraint of a wholly book that tells me so.

 

The reason why I never cheated, is that in my selfish need of fulfilling my own desires, I have come to the conclusion that my long term goals is to have a stable family, and not a torn up and broken down family.

 

Compare it to this situation. If I was allowed to crash my car anytime I wanted, would I still do it? No, because I know it would hurt, and it would cost me money. Is it right or wrong to crash my car? Neither, it's your choice.

 

But in your mind, crashing a car is morally despicable, and ethically unacceptable, so to prove to you that I don't crash my car either, even if I'm an atheist, is because I can come to conclusions of what is best or not so good, and it's based on a system outside God. It's a domain outside God's realms, and he has no control or power over it. Because of two reasons, he's not omnipotent, and he doesn't exist.

 

His children don't drink, smoke, do drugs etc. Who told him these things were "good or bad"?

The law in the country. Out of my own egoistic and selfish needs I want to stay out of prison and the want to follow the law at my best ability. Has nothing to do with right or wrong. But again, I brought it up to show you that atheists can behave according to your own little moral law, without being "born again". And this compares to the extreme high number of "born agains" that are in prison, which proves that being "born again" doesn't change the human heart at all, but by suppressing its reasoning, forces the desires to explode and make people worse than before.

 

You keep on proving the point by not showing the fruits of the spirit. I have been very accommodating, and open about my life, and even told you fragments of my experience, and you have mocked me and pulled my words in the mud, and yet you think that will convert someone, or that God will give you some extra brownies?

 

They have pledged to remain virgins until marriage. Who cares? Where did you ever get the idea that these things were "wrong"?

Out of the dangers to contract HIV, AIDS and other STDs. And also, having sex with minors is considered statutory rape in this country (I don't know about yours). I do believe strongly in social contract and that you try to abide to them to the level you're able to.

 

And secondly, the danger of meeting girls that will lie about the pill, and get intentionally pregnant to reel in a boy to marry. (There are those around too, we've met one. Poor boy moved out of state...)

 

In your world, if they so choose to take part in any of these things they are perfectly free to do so based upon their own "Freethought" system of belief. Who are you to tell them any differently? If you claim some authority over them as a parent, where did you get this supposed authority? And if, at age 12 or so, they decide to tell you they are going to participate in every "illicit" activity listed above, what reason can you possibly give to restrain them? Would you say "Now, honey, I really don't think you ought to do that because there are detrimental effects down the road that you can't yet see. I strongly urge you to reconsider."? The standard has been abandoned and then reconstructed as your own in order to exalt yourself, so why can't they abandon your standard in favor of what they deem best?

Sure they can do that, but I'm good in dialogue and argument. I'm a master of wearing them down. It's not for nothing I'm known as "Mr. Talkalot".

 

I told my oldest son, that when he turns 18 (legal age), then I recommend that he go out and have fun. Just make sure to wear condoms. My parents never told me that, they told me to never have sex until I was married.

 

Now, my son still wants to stay virgin until married. Why? It's just the way he feels. He feels that it is what he wants to do. Should I force him to drop that idea? Then I don't respect his idea.

 

The way you're arguing is that I should force him to abide to a moral code that was written 2500 years ago. It doesn't fit, and 90% of that moral code has been abandoned anyway, so how can you even say that you follow it?

 

D.Paul, again I'm asking you, have you killed your son yet for being disobedient? If not, why do you avoid following the moral code of the Bible and God's law? Have you hit your son yet? Why not? The Bible tell you to hit him so he can learn.

 

Here you can see something really funny. The Bible recommends you or even commands you to hit and hurt your child to teach him. One of the Churches I belonged to was preaching this. I tried for a while spanking my son, but it was hurting my feelings, I couldn't continue. So... the moral code is that I should spank him... but my emotions said that it was wrong to spank him. So which one should I follow? The Bible or my Heart? My Heart showed more compassion and empathy than the Bible, so I followed my heart.

 

The Bible is full of hate and anger. You need to remove it from your life D.Paul, because that anger and hate it has been teaching you is showing!

 

That you don't understand these concepts and what I'm saying just proves that you and I are so far removed from each others worlds, that there are no understanding to ever be reached. The only difference is that I used to be on your side, and know what you think and how you feel, while you don't about me.

 

If you claim you were Buddhist or Atheist or something else before, I can only tell you, that you were never a true Buddhist or a true Atheist. You're just full of lies, because your father is the father of lies. But I'm telling you the truth, because I don't lie.

[Kuroikaze]

ExChurchgoers.net  you hold your form of “enlightenment“ in your newfound “freedom“ but how do you account for historical events such as the Great Awakening? Not just the revival but the long term effects in godliness that accomplished such unprecedented things; things leading to the formation of the very nation in which you find yourself! 

 

Ok, first of all, Piss off, (ExChurchgoers.net) is just your way of saying we were never really christians. Your welcome to think that, but please take your stupidity elsewhere. You know absolutly nothing about me. I was as faithful as any christian, had you met me you would have called me brother. I evangilized, read my Bible every day, prayed....get this through your thick moronic skull... I REALLY BELIEVED JESUS DIED FOR MY SINS. Don't accept that if you like, but it doesn't make you right.

 

 

Secondly, your grasp of history is laughable. The great awakening mostly affected the uneducated masses, the people who wrote the decleration of independance and the constitution were the well educated, people like Thomas Paine and Benjimin Franklen, who were both Diests. They were products of the enlightenment, people who valued reason, and did not believe in original sin. Read a Damn history book sometime. When this country was formed Christians were still burning people at the stake. The reason they aren't now was because they sold out thier "beliefs" to the enlighentment thinkers. You might wish us to go back to the dark ages when those who dared to think for themselves instead of letting the church do it for them were killed. As for me, I hope those days will never come again, and your kind will finally die out, when everyone figures out how misguieded you are.

 

Please do not launch into the tirade on the so-called “atrocities by God” after reading these next statements: The prevalent view here is that mankind in general possesses a proper perspective on the affairs of life. This is not a view I am willing to grant. I agree with Luther that unless or until one has a proper view of God he cannot have a proper view of himself. You claim to have a handle on “morality” and elevate your system of “morality” which ebbs and flows  for convenience sake. Who is responsible for the abortion industry? Planned Parenthood was certainly not started by one claiming to be Christian. Margaret Sanger was an Atheistic Socialist with an agenda.

 

What, no one here claims to be perfect, or to always do the right thing, however. This does not get God off the hook for his so called atrocities. Lets talk about abortion, in the bible, a man who causes a woman to miscarry though violent acts is not killed as a murder but only asked to pay a fine.

 

As far as Luther goes, he became a horible anti semite by the end of his life, so why should I take him seriously?

 

Many seem to think we elevate ourselves, as Christians, above others. This accusation is made by the very ones who claim to know (but have rejected) what the scriptures teach. If they truly understood what is taught, they would know that there is what is known to be “former conduct”. Why are people in Scripture exhorted to shun certain thoughts and behaviors? Greater still, HOW are they to shun them? Through some governmental educational program of “awareness week”? Are we to consider that each individual has the sense to “pull himself up by his bootstraps” and discontinue what is in his heart to practice? Surely you do not disagree with the list from Galatians 5:19-21? But the claim is that even though these are indeed “bad things” we give men credit to be able to desist! These practices exist daily and moment by moment in the world but they DID NOT and DO NOT exist as normal conduct in the Christian church! Examples are cited to the contrary such as when  Webmaster uses the example of the trespasser on his porch but he will never assume that the trespasser is a God-fearing Christian. We are not afraid to walk the streets in some cities due to Christians on the loose! What fills the pages of newspapers is not crimes committed by Christians but by the ungodly. That is a fact you must deal with. Sure, there are “good“, “moral” and “nice” persons who may never darken the door of a church but the scoundrels of Enron or your local jailbird never claim to be following Christ. Throughout the centuries Christians are not the ones who become the reason for societal fears and ills. Psalm 79 and the Book of Habakkuk give answer to your accusation. If the Bible says I am born of the Spirit and you say I am not, how are you in any position to make such a definitive declaration? Scripture tells me how I know it to be and also tells me how to detect my own hypocrisy. You tell me nothing.

 

 

Again you show your grasp of history to be laughable. In fact throughout the centuries, Christians have been the ones who have caused many problems in societies. The Crusades, Spanish inqusition, heck the christians even encouraged people in the middle ages not to bathe, because it was unhealthy

 

Christans justfied slavery in this country, they forbade interracial marraige, taught, and in some places continue to teach that women are inferior to men.

 

Perhaps you have a different standard for morality and don't consider these things bad, but that just goes to show how different we two are.

 

Right and Wrong? HanSolo so proudly proclaimed that he has never cheated on his wife. Who told him this was "right"? His children don't drink, smoke, do drugs etc. Who told him these things were "good or bad"? They have pledged to remain virgins until marriage. Who cares? Where did you ever get the idea that these things were "wrong"? In your world, if they so choose to take part in any of these things they are perfectly free to do so based upon their own "Freethought" system of belief. Who are you to tell them any differently? If you claim some authority over them as a parent, where did you get this supposed authority? And if, at age 12 or so, they decide to tell you they are going to participate in every "illicit" activity listed above, what reason can you possibly give to restrain them? Would you say "Now, honey, I really don't think you ought to do that because there are detrimental effects down the road that you can't yet see. I strongly urge you to reconsider."? The standard has been abandoned and then reconstructed as your own in order to exalt yourself, so why can't they abandon your standard in favor of what they deem best?

 

Freethought is touted here. Do you not realize that even "free thought" has some basis? It is pure relativism. Freethought, brought to its logical conclusion, is evident, to name just one area, in the music industry where the mind numbing mantras of Rap and Rock hedonists generate millions of dollars. Who is it that purchases in support of them? Who is to stop them? Who is even interested in squelching their influence over our youth? Who is going to say they are wrong  in their lyrical and behavioral perversions? YOU? You have forfeited any right to decry their assault on decency because you have abandoned any standard, and LIKE THEM have elevated yourselves as the standard.  This is what is so maddening about what I read here. Is the solution then that I not come here? No. I still deal with the effects of your way of thinking every day whether or not I purposely expose myself  to them here. Just like you deal with the effects of Biblical thinking. But you see the actual difference.

Surely you've read Proverbs 1:20-33. This is God's view of men who disdain his counsel, thus it is my view as well.

 

yay, you have an opinion, alert the media

 

By the way, I dislike most american music and rarely buy it.

 

The claim is made that you hold no regard for religion in general but the tenets of any other religion but Christianity are perfectly acceptable as long as they remain passive toward you. The claim is made that you do not attempt to sway anyone's belief as long as they do the same for you. Yet you chide, ridicule and sneer at the Christian, telling us we ought to abandon our beliefs in favor of your system of belief based upon your supposed and exalted "evidence". The fact is made perfectly plain: You desire that the whole world become as you are in order to promote and preserve your "autonomy" - a law unto yourselves - so that no one can tell you what to do. From the other side of your mouth you claim to adhere to the law. What law? The law that caters to human whim and convenience so that now it is perfectly "legal" to murder a baby inside the womb? Let the baby be born and within one minute of birth, with the umbilical cord still attached, have some lunatic run in and bash it's head in and you will be the first to cry against it, still upholding a godless law made by godless men that says it is OK to slaughter the worthless blob inside the womb for the sake of the woman's convenience alone. You have no consistent standard by which to judge anything.

 

I don't care if you abandon your system of thought or not, I am perfectly content being smart while you are stupid...give me better job opertunities

 

By the way, Chrstians standards change as well, you just ignore that because its isn't good for you. As I said, christians used to think slavery was justified in the bible.

 

(On the point of abortion, I've read your so-called interpretations which make the Bible read so as to make abortion a biblical concession or mandate. When one mishandles a craftsman's tool and botches a project, this does not make him a craftsman. Your bias shows at this point. You understand nothing of God.)

 

eh, but non of us use the bible to actually justify abortion, I don't like it very much myself, so don't assume we all think the same things.

 

One passage of scripture 1Cor. 4:7 condemns your self-sufficient view. Why are you so easily provoked in this? Acts 5:12-14  goes beyond what you are willing to grant us. After the judgement upon Ananias and Sapphira, none dared join them "but...esteemed them highly." You have no such esteem for us. You revel in your ridicule of our supposed belief in mythology. If it were mythology, don't you think they would have recognized it and ridiculed also? They never saw a Zeus do such things.

 

The claim is made that our ministers are manipulative and dictatorial; who need to keep us “under their thumb”. Certainly the abuses of the pulpit have occurred and, conversely, you will condescend to allow for the “sincere ones” but who do you think you are to condemn faithful Pastors who are most concerned for the well-being of all? As for the congregation, those who merely attend and claim some kind of religiosity makes them no more Christian than you were when you were "in church". Who are the perverters of doctrines? To whom was your attention and embrace given to cause you to abandon sound doctrine? Why did you neglect 2Tim 15-17? It is because you are the very ones described in 2Tim 3:1-9.

 

Well isn't that nice, you have a pasage for everything don't ya?

 

I didn't leave christianty because of anything anyone did, I left it because the bible is a load of crap

 

 

 

I'd continue but I must go to work, I'll finish responding when I get home.

[Ouroboros]

...ExChurchgoers.net...

 

Since you equate Ex-Christians with Ex-Churchgoers, I guess your intention is to claim that a True Christian™ is the one that goes to Church on a regular basis, and not the one that confess Jesus as Lord...etc?

 

Or do you mean that we were only Church-goers before and never honest in our faith? If that's the case... (censored language...)

[Mythra]

Double dog guarantee you that exchurgoers.net was his cute little way of trivializing our experience (without having any clue about us whatsoever), and saying that we were "NEVER REALLY CHRISTIANS" like HE is.

 

fuck I get tired of hearing that.

 

Hey DPaul: if you want to really get dedicated, give up that victorian shit Edwards and study Augustine. See if you can figure out how to make a baby without getting a sinful erection.

[Checkmate]

Y'know D.Paul, for someone who isn't on these forums seeking to change people's minds, you sure do give a damn good impression of one. Why haven't you "knocked the dust off your feet" and left us heathens to Satan? Why are you striving so mightily to change our minds?

 

Or is it that you simply love slinging insults at us? (How "Christ-like" of you!)

[Lizard]

ExChurchgoers.net  you hold your form of “enlightenment“ in your newfound “freedom“ but how do you account for historical events such as the Great Awakening? Not just the revival but the long term effects in godliness that accomplished such unprecedented things; things leading to the formation of the very nation in which you find yourself!

Yes, they "accomplished" many things..managed to keep us in the dark about reality. Suppressed true freedom and equality for all. Lets hear it for the Christians in the early part of this country...

 

NOT!

The claim is made that our ministers are manipulative and dictatorial; who need to keep us “under their thumb”. Certainly the abuses of the pulpit have occurred and, conversely, you will condescend to allow for the “sincere ones” but who do you think you are to condemn faithful Pastors who are most concerned for the well-being of all? As for the congregation, those who merely attend and claim some kind of religiosity makes them no more Christian than you were when you were "in church". Who are the perverters of doctrines? To whom was your attention and embrace given to cause you to abandon sound doctrine? Why did you neglect 2Tim 15-17? It is because you are the very ones described in 2Tim 3:1-9.

 

I would submit that the very ministers you hold in such high esteem are those who "pervert" the doctrines for their own ends.

 

Who the hell do you think you are, coming here and proclaiming that we were not True Christians? I know its already been said, but this pisses me off most of all, after having given half of my life to xtianity..and at 45, that's quite a number of years.

 

I actually understand the fear you hold though that compels you to jump to such conclusions..see, if we could walk away, "lose our salvation" as it were..what is to stop you from doing the same? I propose that it is your own insecurity and fear that drives you to make such assumptions. I know I did the same thing as a "follower".

 

You have no qualms at all for finding as many instances as you possibly can of the weaker ones associated with some church succumbing to the pervasive influence of pornography. You hold them high for all the world to ridicule. Pornography. Whom do you hold responsible for the production and distribution of this genre of "art" so protected by your perverted lawmakers? Christians? If you speak out against it, why and how do you do so? You are speaking against your own who is merely working out his exalted autonomy just as you have granted him. Do you exalt Hugh Hefner and all his women who spread their cunts for the camera as though they guard the bastion of morality? If adultery is an external matter only, how many of your wives will condone your possession of such material? Boys will be boys, right? But let a man become beguiled by it and have his mind infested with its ineradicable images. Then we'll let you be the ones to lobby against it when the effects hit home.

 

Its not railing against the pornography industry to call out the ministers on this. They are the ones proclaiming the evilness of "Hugh Hefner and his women who spread their cunts for the camera" then hide in a closet and watch as they get off to it. Or visit the prostitute. In hiding..in secret because they KNOW they are hypocrites. Then cry on national tv how they have sinned before God and man..

 

 

Does the common drunkard do so in obedience to God? Does the Alcohol Industry profess to honor God? Are your women members of MADD? Why? To stop people from gerttting drunk and hurting someone? How will you propose to squelch the deep desire to drink? Give them another dose of your philosphy/psychology or some scientific drug? What power do you possess to change the DrugLord, the PornKing or the Boozer  into "decent" human beings (by what ever standard you hold as "decent"...it shifts accordingly)?

 

My husband was at one time a "common drunkard". As he got drunker, he did "confess Jesus"..it was when he sobered up that he saw reality for what it was. No, he did not need a magical diety to make him stop drinking.

 

As to the DrugLord..well, drugs are illegal, therefore that is up to the Law to take care of. It doesn't of course..and we all know that.

 

For the PornKing..I don't see that he is or is not a "decent" human being. Since I don't know any, I can't speak to that. Nope, I don't have a problem with porn.

 

 

So, who are the godless ExC.net? They're every one of your disciples around you. They're the RapThugs and the MetalHeads They're your Skinheads who'd slice your throat in a minute. They're your arrogant politicians and legislators who are driving us toward Socialism and Anarchy, your Blessed Ideals. They have taken numerous forms in history past but are all motivated by the same thing that is in you. Spite and Malice toward the word of God and those of us who hold to it. Given just the right conditions, the eradication of our presence and influence in the world will be approved and applauded by people just like you. Am I crying "Persecution!"? No. But what mindset do you think was prevalent to create the actual historic incidences? You hold it so closely you can't even see it. Oops! I'm sorry. Anything Biblical could not possibly be historically accurate. My mistake.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We are also your mothers and grandmothers, sisters and wives who lead very "normal" nontheistic lives. We cry at sad movies and hurricanes that effect our "fellow disciples", as you call them. We reach out to help when we can, no damn strings attached, no sermons before the help, no bibles to be distributed.

 

We love, we live and we die..the same as you. We raise our children to be the best they can be and to hopefully give something back to this world..to leave a positive footprint behind for those who come after us.

 

Never a True Christian? You have no clue. Its just easier to say "They were never really one of us!"

[Java]

Why do I get the feeling that Mister Paul would be very at home in the world of Handmaid's Tale?

 

A better question of our Calvinistic friend: Why is it that Ezekial 18 says God will forgive me if I turn from sin if I can only be forgiven through Jesus? If you claim they are the same, please explain how non-Christians can reform themselves from doing evil.

[Mythra]

A better question of our Calvinistic friend: Why is it that Ezekial 18 says God will forgive me if I turn from sin if I can only be forgiven through Jesus? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good point, Java. It's also a problem for christians when we get to the gospels. The synoptic gospels (Mt, Mk, & Lk) all fail to mention that it is a belief in the Son that gets ya to the promised land. Funny that they left that out, if it's so important. It's always repentence that god wants. It's only when we get to the big book of John (some 30 years later) that belief in the Son is the hot ticket, and we see the influence of Philo being added into the equation.

 

And nowhere in any of the gospels is a "relationship" specifically mentioned.

 

Funny also how Jesus' words in the book of John sound much more like the voice in the Johannine Epistles than they sound like the rest of Jesus' words and sayings and parables in the other gospels.

 

The writer of John put words into Jesus' mouth?? Say it ain't so..