Some perspectives

[All Gods Fail]

Why do I get the feeling that Mister Paul would be very at home in the world of Handmaid's Tale?

 

A better question of our Calvinistic friend: Why is it that Ezekial 18 says God will forgive me if I turn from sin if I can only be forgiven through Jesus?  If you claim they are the same, please explain how non-Christians can reform themselves from doing evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh lord, I just got the calvinist thing from his avatar! Of all the fucked-up off-shoots of xtianity, calvinism is the worst. Anyone who thinks calvin was a worthy spiritual teacher has got their head so far up their ass it's never coming back out.

 

Don't bother arguing with this idiot - calvinism is all about judging others, especially if they're not Dutch. It's the basis of their whole crappy movement.

 

Can't we get Holland to take these cranks back?

 

Also, fuck calvin for what he did to Michael Servet. Servet did more to aid humanity than calvin and all his miserable bullshit.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Asshole. Pharisee.

No, you certainly aren't worth it.

 

Dodge. Ignore. Run. How typical.

 

Goodbye again, Brother D. Paul! See ya!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I TOLD you this one needed a "flaming asshole" icon.

 

Hell, give me a bit and I'll come up with the illustration in Photoshop.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Why do I get the feeling that Mister Paul would be very at home in the world of Handmaid's Tale?

 

A better question of our Calvinistic friend: Why is it that Ezekial 18 says God will forgive me if I turn from sin if I can only be forgiven through Jesus?  If you claim they are the same, please explain how non-Christians can reform themselves from doing evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah--Greetings from the Republic of Gilead.

 

This has got to be the most aggressively hypocritical "apologist" I have seen on here yet. He's not doing anything but attacking us.

 

I'm tellin' ya--flaming asshole icon. As a warning to newbs about what a vicious jerk he is.

[D. Paul]

And don't think this went by unnoticed.  Dickhead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It wasn't ambiguous. Congrats for noticing, I guess.

[D. Paul]

Ok, first of all, Piss off, (ExChurchgoers.net) is just your way of saying we were never really christians. Your welcome to think that, but please take your stupidity elsewhere. You know absolutly nothing about me. I was as faithful as any christian, had you met me you would have called me brother. I evangilized, read my Bible every day, prayed....get this through your thick moronic skull... I REALLY BELIEVED JESUS DIED FOR MY SINS. Don't accept that if you like, but it doesn't make you right.

 

I did not write the post to simply ruffle feathers and sit back and watch them fly. I can make the "ExChurchgoers" comment bc that is the Biblical assessment of your involvement. You were interested to some point - even to the profession of "faith" - but Jesus had his hangers-on and because of his words, they departed from him, showing themselves to never be with him to begin with. Scripture has made the distinction, defined it and applied it. The fact that it applies to you? Well, sorry.

[D. Paul]

QUOTE

His children don't drink, smoke, do drugs etc. Who told him these things were "good or bad"?

 

 

The law in the country.

 

HanS, come on. The laws in this country tell you it is wrong to smoke, therefore your children don't smoke? The law also tells you that, in its Opinion, women can kill their babies. But is this morally right or wrong?

[D. Paul]

QUOTE(HanSolo @ Oct 1 2005, 01:44 AM)

If our sins are infinite and deserves infinte punishment because God is infinite, that means that every good thing we've done is infinite good also, and God has to weight two infinite sets against each other, and it means they come out equal. I guess we'll land in the nice twilight zone of Limbo instead!

 

 

 

 

 

Come on Han... you know better than to expect logic on this subject.

 

 

 

I wonder if we could put D.Paul into the "shit-filled rectum, spewing rancid diarrhoea" group?

 

And, no... I DON'T want to imagine what the icon would be like...

 

Thanks again. I really feel free to express viewpoints here. I'm certain you conduct your everyday affairs this way. Of course you say "Only with people like you.", right?

[D. Paul]

*sigh*

 

Another amateur Christian coming in trying to prove that godlessness is actually the root of all evil.  Yep.  It's all there.  The "you hate Jesus" accusations.  The Hitler cheap shot.  The haughty mockery of the term "free thought".  Did you actually have something to say, punk, or are you just daring us to knock that chip off your shoulder?

Take your chip shot, I guess.

 

Incidentally, to make a couple corrections for you, none of us hate Jesus.  You see, Jesus is a character in a book.  Even if a historical Jesus existed, he certainly wasn't the figure described in the Bible.  That Jesus never existed.  If there was an original Jesus, we simply don't know enough about the guy to make any judgement.

"certainly wasn't the figure..." Certainly? And I should believe you over whom?

 

Second, none of us actually say that nothing in the Bible can be historical.  That's a strawman.  You're basically lashing out when you say that.  What we actually say is that the Bible fudges history.  There are a lot of stories told that are meant to describe how things came to be, but they're clearly mythological, such as the creation story, Eve and the apple, the flood, the virgin birth, the miracles, etc.  It's incredible that archeologists can find small civilizations and even identify individual campfires, but when six hundred thousand Isrealite soldiers follow Moses through the desert with their families, animals, looted goods, etc. etc., there is not one trace of evidence even remotely suggesting that any of this ever happened.

 

Certainly, there's history in the Bible.  Just not where you want it to be.

Correct. It is not in you.

 

And finally, atheism does not identify a specific political stance. Atheism is only identified as a non-theistic stance. Unlike Christianity, there's no doctrine of atheism.

 

And it is a gross misrepresentation to refer to Hitler as an atheist. I might grant you that he was no Christian, but that man was not an atheist.

 

Still, I find these images rather interesting...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity...

[Vigile]

Asshole. Pharisee.

No, you certainly aren't worth it.

 

Dodge. Ignore. Run. How typical.

 

Goodbye again, Brother D. Paul! See ya!

 

I certainly wish there were more christians like D; their population would be a lot smaller that's for sure. This guy has to be one of the most self-assured assholes I've come across in my short time on this planet. Had I run into a few more like him I would have deconverted much earlier and saved myself a lot of heartache along the way. But then maybe I really was never a "true" christian, because I never once achieved the level of self righteous piety and self assured monopoly on truth that this guy has.

 

What a bully he is. He throws out his tripe and then refuses to engage all the while claiming the high road. I don't give a shit about his imaginary Jesus, but I'm certainly no fan of D.

 

Oh, and D, I have lots of christian friends and loved ones. You will likely never be counted amongst them so don't be too smug in your assessment of my opinion of you. The fact that Edwards appeals to you is not surprising; you are equally mean spirited.

 

You are free to leave now. You won't be missed.

[Vigile]

I can make the "ExChurchgoers" comment bc that is the Biblical assessment of your involvement.

 

 

You say that like the bible is true or something. Comedy is not your forte.

[Vigile]

Thanks again. I really feel free to express viewpoints here. I'm certain you conduct your everyday affairs this way. Of course you say "Only with people like you.", right?

 

You are more than free to express your viewpoints if you are willing to defend them; you sir are not. You spew, you duck, you run; you return, you berate our rebuttals, you duck, you run. Feel free to take a hike.

[crazy-tiger]

I can make the "ExChurchgoers" comment bc that is the Biblical assessment of your involvement. You were interested to some point - even to the profession of "faith" -  but Jesus had his hangers-on and because of his words, they departed from him, showing themselves to never be with him to begin with. Scripture has made the distinction, defined it and applied it. The fact that it applies to you? Well, sorry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hebrews 6:4-6

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

 

Seems scripture says that we were more than just churchgoers... or are you claiming that the scriptures are wrong?

[Mr. Neil]

Correct. It is not in you.

How arrogant can you be?

 

First you make a slurry of a unsupportable accusations against atheists, and then when I point out one that you got particularly dead wrong, which is that atheists think that nothing in the Bible can be true, you try to goad me as though I don't got the guts to say it.

 

I'll say it again. Nobody here would dare say that there isn't history in the Bible. In fact, if someone did, they'd be laughed off the forum. The Bible is very much like the Illiad and the Odyssey. It's an alagamation of mythology and history, and sometimes it's very hard to tell when one stops and the other begins. The Bible is certainly a handy tool in archeology, but you have to take that with a grain of salt. There are all sorts of civilizations where myth has been written into history. It's simply special pleading to assume that gospels aren't the same way.

 

Still, I find these images rather interesting...

 

(pictures added to quote for the sake of clarity)

Which has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity...

Even if that's true, that's not the point I was trying to make.

 

You attempted to associate Hitler with atheism, which is the classic Christian cheapshot. Here, let me freshen your memory.

 

Atheism has been far more cruel by evidences that stand as Black Monuments throughout history. How was it that Hitler's and Nazi Germany's avowed goal was to introduce paganism and root our every vestige of religion in an atheistic state.

Hitler was in no way an atheist! That was my point! Go back and re-read what I said.

 

And it is a gross misrepresentation to refer to Hitler as an atheist.  I might grant you that he was no Christian, but that man was not an atheist.

I wasn't even trying to say that Hitler was a Christian or accurately represented Christian values, and yet you insert Christianity into your rebuttal as though I did!

 

It is nothing short of pure biggotry against changing ideas that you're so willing to just say anything to attack people who don't believe the same things you believe. The second you brought up atheism and Hitler, you automatically lost. You didn't even have a leg to stand on.

 

Of course, you probably selected my post because you thought it would be easier to attack what I said than what someone else posted about Hitler's theological leanings. I suggest you go all the way back to the first page and read what Serenity Now said.

 

No wait! I'll save you the trouble!

 

Hitler was a CHRISTIAN.  Protestantism was founded by the very evil, hateful and anti-semitic Martin Luther.  Check yourself on what you believe there D. Pau, because you'll find that you are wrong in many cases.

 

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

 

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

 

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

 

Even less could I understand how the Christian Social Party at this same period could achieve such immense power. At that time it had just reached the apogee of its glory.

 

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

 

Heaven will smile on us again.

 

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

 

The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation.

 

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

 

Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction.

Adolf Hitler

Oops!

 

Incidentally, to make a couple corrections for you, none of us hate Jesus.  You see, Jesus is a character in a book.  Even if a historical Jesus existed, he certainly wasn't the figure described in the Bible.  That Jesus never existed.  If there was an original Jesus, we simply don't know enough about the guy to make any judgement.

"certainly wasn't the figure..." Certainly? And I should believe you over whom?

Um... Shouldn't I be asking you that question? I don't know of any respectable historian who would dare to call the gospels historical.

 

I recommend you start looking into folklore and myths, and you'll see how this applies to the Bible. I recommend the work of the late Alan Dundes, author of "Holy Writ as Oral Lit: The Bible as Folklore". He's a well-reknowned folklorist who demonstrates, quite convincingly, that a lot of the Bible, particularly the gospels, is just a bunch of stories that were passed down and do not actually represent history.

 

For one thing, the gospels even build like mythical retellings. It's actually somewhat unique in that respect, because you don't often see myths in various stages of development like this. From gospel to gospel, you can see the authors embellishing. They add events and take others away. A common defense is to say that not all of the gospels include every event taken place, but that argument falls apart once you see that there are certain happenings in one gospel that simply cannot coincide with another. The events taking place after Jesus' Baptism is a fine example.

 

Once you start comparing the gospels with one another, you begin to see how ridiculously indefensible it is to insist that this story must be literal history. Here are some things I think you should check out.

 

http://www.gastrich.org

http://www.jesuspuzzle.com

http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=stone

 

So you see, even if there was such a person walking around in the first century middle east named Yeshua, on whom all of these stories are based, that wouldn't mean that the Jesus character from the Bible ever existed. More likely, you have this first century apologist going around, doing tricks to gain an audience, much like today's faith healers.

 

Open your eyes.

[Java]

I totally missed that!!

 

I invoke Godwin's Law. D.Paul automatically loses this debate.

[D. Paul]

Hebrews 6:4-6

 

Seems scripture says that we were more than just churchgoers... or are you claiming that the scriptures are wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, sir. I am saying that you have not gotten the point of the Book of Hebrews, have wrenched a verse out of context to make it say something while ignoring what follows, and have used it falsely.

[Vixentrox]

No, sir. I am saying that you have not gotten the point of the Book of Hebrews, have wrenched a verse out of context to make it say something while ignoring what follows, and have used it falsely.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And only your divinly inspired interuptation understands what is in Hebrews?

[D. Paul]

And only your divinly inspired interuptation understands what is in Hebrews?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It is not mine. Why not simply read the rest of the passage and see who is being spoken of.

[crazy-tiger]

It is not mine. Why not simply read the rest of the passage and see who is being spoken of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We have... it speaks of those who once were enlightened, who had tasted the heavenly gift, who had shared in the Holy Spirit, who had tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and the fact that they could never return to repentance... which is needed for forgiveness and entry into heaven.

 

 

You do understand, don't you? The Bible itself speaks of what will happen to anyone who has been a FULL CHRISTIAN and subsequently rejected the faith. You claim it can't happen? You claim that anyone who leaves was never a christian?

 

THEN WHY THE WARNING? Why would the Bible tell us what will happen to christians who reject the faith?

 

 

Sorry, but you're making a claim that the Bible contradicts... and that means you've just managed to re-write the Bible.

 

By your beliefs, hell awaits you... heretic.

[D. Paul]

You do understand, don't you? The Bible itself speaks of what will happen to anyone who has been a FULL CHRISTIAN and subsequently rejected the faith. You claim it can't happen? You claim that anyone who leaves was never a christian?

 

No, sir, this is NOT the case. There are specific instances for you to read in the Scriptures that define who is being spoken of here. Let's look at John 6, OK? For context, Jesus came to His Disciples on the water, the people notice them gone, came to Capernaum, He tells them that even though they have seen him and miracles they still do not "believe" even though they insist they do (v. 36). His subsequent discourse prompted great disturbance to the point of v.60. Then v.64 says some do not believe who were His disciples (there were more than 12, you know) and then v.66-69 makes the clear distinction. The very ones who "walked with Him no more" are the very same ones in Hebrews 6. They associated themselves with Him, saw His life and acts, saw the evidence of the Spirit and STILL turned. Why? V. 65. It is clear enough.

 

...FULL CHRISTIAN and subsequently rejected the faith

?

Hardly.

[Mythra]

I did not write the post to simply ruffle feathers and sit back and watch them fly. I can make the "ExChurchgoers" comment bc that is the Biblical assessment of your involvement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, please elaborate. Tell us more about our lives, our commitment, our experience, our sacrifices, our sincerity. Please explain how the scriptures have given you insights into knowing us so well.

 

Hell, if you are gonna wade in shit, you might as well go ahead and dive in head first.

[Vigile]

?

Hardly.

 

Hmm...

 

Well, I believed the bible was the inspired word of god without err. I put my faith in christ for salvation. I spent time in prayer and devotion daily. I put my hopes and dreams and worries on him expecting him to carry me. I believed jesus to be god in the flesh who provided me the free gift of salvation. I did my best to repent of my sin and beseeched him daily to help me crucify my flesh. I wept, I cried out, I grieved. I did in fact believe. I did all these things for 25 years. Where did I go wrong D? What was it that I didn't believe/do correctly to have been saved? I thought salvation was freely given. I trusted, now I don't. I guess I just didn't hold on long enough. Is that it? I didn't prove to him my conviction because I did in fact fall away. Seems salvation is not so freely given.

[seeker]

D.Paul. I'm just wondering. Now obvioulsy this is a forum for debate. BUT... why do you honestly want to debate what your Religious (I know you don't consider your beliefs a religion) beliefs are? What is your purpose? To convince disbelievers that they are wrong.....to convert? Or are you offended by what people here say and want to defend yourself because you feel attacked? If its the latter then I must say that's quite immature.

 

From an outsiders point of view (I was never a Christian or even a real Catholic for that matter...at least not what you would consider a Christian) its plain to see that you are no different in what you are trying to prove, your personal interpretations of what you think the Bible means, or any other point your trying to get across here. With your bit of mocking and making fun (your litte southern "dumb" accent you typed in) I hope you realize how childish and immature you seem.

[crazy-tiger]

No, sir, this is NOT the case. There are specific instances for you to read in the Scriptures that define who is being spoken of here. Let's look at John 6, OK? For context, Jesus came to His Disciples on the water, the people notice them gone, came to Capernaum, He tells them that even though they have seen him and miracles they still do not "believe" even though they insist they do (v. 36). His subsequent discourse prompted great disturbance to the point of v.60. Then v.64 says some do not believe who were His disciples (there were more than 12, you know) and then v.66-69 makes the clear distinction. The very ones who "walked with Him no more" are the very same ones in Hebrews 6. They associated themselves with Him, saw His life and acts, saw the evidence of the Spirit and STILL turned. Why? V. 65. It is clear enough.

 

?

Hardly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are arguing that his Disciples were also never true believers, since to walk away is to never have believed in the first place...

 

 

Are you really sure you want to make that argument? Are you really sure that those who were called Disciples (a personal follower of Christ during his life, especially one of the twelve Apostles) rejected Christ and his teachings?

 

You do realise that to make that argument is to claim that those Disciples were NEVER DISCIPLES IN THE FIRST PLACE! A claim that assumes that the Bible lied...

 

By your own belief, hell awaits you... heretic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if he realises that he's managed to get himself into a no-win situation? Either he admits that his original statement was wrong or he admits that he's claiming the Bible's wrong...

 

Always fun to see them try and squirm their way out of things.

[crazy-tiger]

Hmm...

 

Well, I believed the bible was the inspired word of god without err.  I put my faith in christ for salvation.  I spent time in prayer and devotion daily.  I put my hopes and dreams and worries on him expecting him to carry me.  I believed jesus to be god in the flesh who provided me the free gift of salvation.  I did my best to repent of my sin and beseeched him daily to help me crucify my flesh.  I wept, I cried out, I grieved.  I did in fact believe.  I did all these things for 25 years.  Where did I go wrong D?  What was it that I didn't believe/do correctly to have been saved?  I thought salvation was freely given.  I trusted, now I don't.  I guess I just didn't hold on long enough.  Is that it?  I didn't prove to him my conviction because I did in fact fall away.  Seems salvation is not so freely given.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's because you left... that proves you were never a True Christian in the first place.

 

 

It also means that our friend here cannot claim to be a Christian himself because he might also leave sometime between now and when he dies. He can only make that claim WHEN he's dead...

 

Fucks his argument right over, since he's insisting that there were Christians who left. Logic doesn't appear to be his strong point.

[white_raven23]

Crazy-Tiger,

 

Did you notice when you broke down the meaning of that Hebrew verse about the bible giving evidence that ex-christianity being possible (and the consequences) therefore the christian claim that ex-christianity is impossible (the old fake christian argument), that D. Paul not only abandoned the claim that we don't understand the verses context......he abandoned the verses ENTIRELY when you used them to point out the BS of the "fake christian" argument.

 

He mis-directed immediately. "Pay no attention to those verses......look at these verses over here".

 

Suddenly the Hebrew verses conveyed meaning that defied general christian belief....and instead of defending those verses (don't ask me how), he abandoned them in favor of other verses.

 

Beautiful modern evidence of how the christians really end up believing whatever they want to depending on which verses they uphold, and which ones prove too "inconvenient".