Former Christian Friend Became An Atheist/satanist

[Shyone]

Okay..so my friend and I have not had the "religion" talk yet. And I plan on keeping it this way, unless he mentions something first. So if he does in the future say something about religion...what should I say? How should I react. So far we are just talking via e-mail and facebook. Like I said I want to see him in person but my schedule is hectic and so is his. It must be weird when he gets my facebook status and is has some quote about Jesus. I wonder if he blocked me yet? So how should I handle it if he ever says anything about God etc? I know to not judge, listen, and respect. I get that much....I really want to know what made him stop believing but will not go there, unless he opens up first etc.

 

So what should I avoid saying if ever he says something about God/religion?

If you were blocked, I don't think you would see his status updates.

 

I'd consider asking, and "listening" (reading). Try to understand without too many preconceptions (something you have yet to master).

 

If you have a question, ask it without setting traps. The questions we have asked here might be good for starters. Basically, what does he believe? (rather than what does he not believe).

 

This may not be terribly ethical, but posting a quote here so that we might "translate" for you might be helpful. There would be no need to mention his name or any identifying data.

[Guest Justyna]

Shyone,

 

Yeah I see your point. I really dont know what exactly he believes since like I said we did not have the "religion" talk. I just heard his songs, and then saw that it says "atheist" in the religion section of his profile. So that is all I have to go off of. His facebook is filled with things about anti-christinaity, both by him and his friends. I feel so sad..what if something really horrible happened to him that made him like this? What if he had a bad experience? Hes really smart and very sensitive, so maybe someone hurt him or something. Dont know...wish I did. Maybe he is disappointed in God or something...he said his whole life is his music now...so obviously its coming from a deep and personal place. It makes me sad and worry cause I see the pain in him through his music. Wish I could take it away from him and make it better. I know I cant..I know that even if I explained the Bible to him and told him that God really does love him etc ...its not going to make one difference. Its not going to ease his pain.

[Shyone]

Shyone,

 

Yeah I see your point. I really dont know what exactly he believes since like I said we did not have the "religion" talk. I just heard his songs, and then saw that it says "atheist" in the religion section of his profile. So that is all I have to go off of. His facebook is filled with things about anti-christinaity, both by him and his friends. I feel so sad..what if something really horrible happened to him that made him like this? What if he had a bad experience? Hes really smart and very sensitive, so maybe someone hurt him or something. Dont know...wish I did. Maybe he is disappointed in God or something...he said his whole life is his music now...so obviously its coming from a deep and personal place. It makes me sad and worry cause I see the pain in him through his music. Wish I could take it away from him and make it better. I know I cant..I know that even if I explained the Bible to him and told him that God really does love him etc ...its not going to make one difference. Its not going to ease his pain.

Well, let's take him at his word. To do otherwise would be to call him a liar (ahem).

 

Anti-christianity can make a lot of sense for someone that has deconverted. Anger is easy, and I recommend you read the thread about "Phases of Deconversion" to get a flavor of why a former Christian might be angry.

 

It would not be valid to assume he has been hurt, or that he feels pain. He may be a voice crying out in the wilderness to tell the world that there is a machine that eats people alive and turns them into Christians by providing false hope, empty promises and loads of unnecessary guilt.

 

But, if you asked, in a way that does not reveal preconceptions, prejudices or disappointment, why he no longer believes in god, you would probably receive a thoughtful reply. There may be a time to ask if someone has hurt him, but not when you don't really know what his own reasons for leaving Christianity were or even how he feels about the religion or the supernatural beings associated with it.

[Yalta]

Yeah I see your point. I really dont know what exactly he believes since like I said we did not have the "religion" talk. I just heard his songs, and then saw that it says "atheist" in the religion section of his profile. So that is all I have to go off of. His facebook is filled with things about anti-christinaity, both by him and his friends. I feel so sad..what if something really horrible happened to him that made him like this? What if he had a bad experience? Hes really smart and very sensitive, so maybe someone hurt him or something. Dont know...wish I did. Maybe he is disappointed in God or something...he said his whole life is his music now...so obviously its coming from a deep and personal place. It makes me sad and worry cause I see the pain in him through his music. Wish I could take it away from him and make it better. I know I cant..I know that even if I explained the Bible to him and told him that God really does love him etc ...its not going to make one difference. Its not going to ease his pain.

 

There are many ex-Christian experiences, and many of the negative ones tend to fall into some of these categories. If your friend is angry about his experiences (he might be angry for a different reason), it might be one - or more - of these:

 

- Angry at corruption in church. The many sex scandals in the news are a perfect example - these each represent real people who were harmed, and a real congregation that watched their beloved pastor be exposed for what he really is. That's a lot of people who get hurt when they find out that a trusted leader was untrustworthy. A website called "Stop Baptist Predators", started by a baptist (as opposed to someone who dislikes baptists), covers these kinds of things. There are also church leaders who have stolen from their church as well.

- Came to the conclusion that Christianity wasn't true... after having put lots of time and effort into it. If you tithed to the church at a time when you're hurting for money, this can be especially painful.

- Rejected by the church for who they are. A few days ago, someone I talked to on an art website, a photographer who I knew was Christian because her journal entries occasionally mentioned going on mission trips, mentioned she'd been feeling miserable the last few days. I asked about it, and she came out to me - she is a lesbian, and her parents are not happy about it. I told her that even if they don't like "what" she is, hopefully they'll realize that "who" she is hasn't changed, and recommended she see the documentary "For the Bible Tells Me So", which is about Christians with gay kids. I decided to do that rather than tell her that I don't believe that Christianity is true, which I think would only hurt her more at a time like this. Also, there are people who are shunned for their political beliefs as well.

- Angry at hypocrisy (or behavior) of Christians. If believing Jesus in the son of God and putting faith in him is supposed to make you a better person, then it would show through in Christians' behavior. But while I personally have met some great people who are Christian, and some very rude, stuck-up folk who are as well, many folks have had a much higher "rude"-to-"nice" ratio. I think I remember reading one deconversion story by someone who, as a teen, had a nasty rumor spread about her that she was an atheist, even though she was still a Christian at the time. Someone just didn't like her, and was trying to sabotage her with nasty rumors and get her shunned by her fellow Christians. That's not very "Christ-like" behavior.

- Believe Christianity instills false hope in people. These people probably saw others put their faith in God to fix problems rather than attempt to fix their life's problems directly. If this happens to enough people, or if people get harmed badly by it (there was a news story some time back about the family of a type 1 diabetic child who prayed for their daughter's healing instead of taking her to a doctor and finding out what her problem was. She died, and the parents were charged with medical neglect), then that would tend to make someone very angry.

- Angry at bigotry of Christians. I remember when I was a kid and my mom was telling me a story of the ancient Greeks, I said "call them geeks because they didn't believe in God." My mom attempted to correct the situation, "they just didn't know back then!", but that arrogance I displayed at the age of 8 is arrogance that many adults have. It's not just many Christians; there are Muslims and atheists who are equally arrogant. My dad told me that he once heard our Jewish doctor go on a rant about how much he hates liberals and Christianity (strange grouping, but apparently he's a conservative Jew). And the arrogance can be political too - thinking all liberals/conservatives/moderates are idiots, beneath you, or worse, are genuinely horrible people.

 

Anyway, individual experiences vary considerably. I imagine your friend might have had one of the above experiences, and had it pretty badly, which may have led to any number of thoughts. Many such people actually seem to go through a "Christianity is good, but not many Christians" or "Christianity is good, but the church isn't" phase. Which in turn might lead to reading the Bible critically, and coming to the conclusion that it's not true.

 

As for your friend making music his life, I do wonder if Christianity filled a need for him that is now filled by something else. That need could be companionship (now he has musician friends), a "reason to be" (before he had the belief in God, but now believing that God is not real, his musical talent and the approval of fans gives him something to do and look forward to), or other things altogether.

[Checkmate]

Greetings Justyna,

 

Your friend's hostility towards religion is typical. All people who de-convert go through emotional stages upon leaving a faith. {Similar to the stages of grief.) One of those stages is RAGE. And depending on the person this stage can take many forms [writing for us, music for him], and it lasts different lengths of time. Days, weeks, months, even years.

 

Think of it as catharsis. New non-believers have been set free from a system that has betrayed us, prevented us from living and even complaining about it, and once free we often feel compelled to rant and rave about it. At first it's fun and it even feels a bit "naughty". But after a while (the time frame differs from person to person) this stage grows old, people stop ranting and raving, and they move on with their lives.

 

Your friend simply needs his time to vent. After a season or so of this he'll most certainly move on to more mature ways of expressing his displeasure, OR he may stop bothering altogether. Depends on the person.

 

I don't believe you have anything to worry about with your friend. Trust me. Every last person here has gone through the Anger Stage. It goes away.

 

 

P.S. - I know you harbor some prayer that YOU will be able to influence him to return. For your sanity and your friendship I suggest you abandon that notion. You may not realize it, but you're treating him as some pet project and NOT as a friend. It WILL pervert your behavior on a subconscious level and he WILL notice it and react to it. BADLY.

 

YOU say you believe in god/Jesus. Fine. Leave your friend's fate in their hands and just live your life. Be a friend, not an evangelist. [THIS is one of the things WE hate about religion. Look at what it is doing to YOU. You're all tied up in knots. And why? Because you've decided to believe in a fairy tale, which, ironically is SUPPOSED to "give you the peace that surpasses all understanding." Are you currently at peace? Doesn't sound like it.]

[OpheliaGinger]

I hope he's not a Satanist. They are equally or more deluded than Christians in my opinion.

 

Some Satanists will freely admit to really being atheists; they latch onto the term Satanist mainly for the shock value. For them, Satan is just a figure (like Athena is to me) but they don't worship him/it because they don't really believe Satan is real.

[OpheliaGinger]

I'm a feminist.

What do you tell a woman with a black eye?

Nothing. She's already been told.

 

She may have a black eye, but you are the one lying on the ground in a pool of your own blood while she holds a knife dripping with said blood. It's all relative.

[Guest Justyna]

Checkmate,

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

I think I am at peace....I wouldnt say I am tied up in knots or anything like that. I love having a relationship with Jesus, it fuels me and gives me life. Im not at peace finding out that my friend might be going through a hard time of deconversion etc. That worries me, but that is about it.

 

I hope I can get past my "need to save him." Its so hard though when I read some of the lyrics. Im not going to say anything to him, but you never know...I might be the one Christian that God uses to change his mind. As a Christian, I feel that all the time. I am never apart from that. I know that God can use me at anytime to reach any person..its always on my mind. Like I said, I am not going to say anything to my friend, but if he opens the door and invites me in...then I might say something on the matter of God.

 

Its weird cause I might feel the need to lead him back, while he might feel the need to show me that Christianity is wrong. So we are sort of the same. Im not sure this is true on his part, only time will tell at the point.

[Guest Justyna]

I am definitely going to pray for him every night and ask God to show Himself to him. I just wont be in my friends face and will try to be tactful. I also wont mention anything to him about God...just pray secret prayers

[foolish girl]

I wonder what it is about us that makes you post here? Are you seeking courage to set yourself free?

[Guest Justyna]

Foolish Girl,

 

What do you mean when you say that I am want to set myself free? Free from what? Christianity? Jesus? No....I feel free now. I would not have it any other way. I tried to live without God once, and it sucked! I hated it.

[Darklady]

Foolish Girl,

 

What do you mean when you say that I am want to set myself free? Free from what? Christianity? Jesus? No....I feel free now. I would not have it any other way. I tried to live without God once, and it sucked! I hated it.

 

 

 

I have to ask it again - as I really do not get it - why are you here? Does not the ex in ex christian mean anything to you. I have nothing against you as a person Justyna, but you are really pathetic to continue posting here. I read what you say and its just such crap - you have nothing I want, you and your crappy gods can go and post somewhere where someone cares, but please not here. I really do not want to see the shit you write day in and day out. You and your gods offend me.

[Guest Justyna]

Darklady,

 

Im sorry that my posts offend you. I try to be as polite as possible in my posts. I can be here..I am only allowed in the Rants and Replies and the Lions Den..thats pretty much it. Im not doing anything against you. If you dont like my posts, dont read them. YOu can also block me..there is that option as well.

[Phanta]

Justyna -

 

If he brings up God, just listen, and listen, and listen. Then listen some more. If he asks a direct question, use your judgment as to whether he is asking to truly collaborate/get YOUR advice/learn from YOU as opposed to rhetorical. If you judge he is really looking to consider your view, share if you would like. If he starts out open to your advice and finds wisdom and help, great. And if he starts out open to your advice, hears some of it, and then you hear him closing down on you (pay attention to tone and wording), go back to listening.

 

Stephen Covey's model for this opening and closing in the person we're listening to in the 7 Habit's book was super easy for me to understand. It's Habit 5: Seek First to Understand, then to be Understood, starting with the section "Four Autobiographical Responses".

 

If what you have to offer is what he needs, leading by example and building trust through listening will take you far. If you are not the model he needs right now in his struggle, you can still help him find his own way through empathic listening. It is an invaluable thing in a friend.

 

It takes some time to learn, but it sounds like what you're describing you want to do. I've been practicing it for a little over a year, and I'm starting to get decent at it in certain cases. I keep reading the model to remind myself and then applying, applying, applying.

 

Good luck!

 

Phanta

[Darklady]

Darklady,

 

Im sorry that my posts offend you. I try to be as polite as possible in my posts. I can be here..I am only allowed in the Rants and Replies and the Lions Den..thats pretty much it. Im not doing anything against you. If you dont like my posts, dont read them. YOu can also block me..there is that option as well.

 

you didn't answer my question - as to WHY are you here/ What do you hope to achieve? (PS if you were trying to be polite you would leave)

[ilovemybrain]

I'm kinda starting to think Darklady is right. You may be sincere, but I wonder, based on the trail of drama and attention-seeking you've left in your wake, in forums all over the web.

[Yalta]

(PS if you were trying to be polite you would leave)

 

Sorry, I had to respond to this. Justyna's cleaned up her act from the time weeks back when she was accusing us of leaving Christianity for selfish reasons, etc. etc. and basically being very passive-aggressive. She's much more pleasant and respectful now, and this is one of the few areas where we allow Christians to post. She's following the rules, as I see, and as a Christian in one of the "Christians allowed" areas, she's certainly allowed to be here.

[Guest Justyna]

Thanks Phanta,

 

I like that...try to understand first before trying to be understood. I definitely feel like my time here on this board has been me trying to get everyone to understand how awesome God is and how He has blessed me etc. My intentions are good, but I guess I need to try to understand more and spend less time trying to be understood. I really do sincreley want to help him (if I can) MORE than I want to preach to him or try to tell him about God etc. Its hard as a Christian to seperate that because I was taught that a person cannot and will not be complete without Christ. So my mind tells me that he needs to give his life to God and that is how he will be able to overcome what he is going through. But I know that if I said something like that, it would ruin everything and get me and (us) no where. I know that is not the approach I need to use. I just need to be a good friend, listen and be supportive, accepting, and non-judgemental.

 

Darklady,

 

Sorry I was going to let your comment go, but you are sort of being rude being in the thread that I started asking me what I am doing here. Cant you see that there is progress being made both by people on this board and myself as well? I thought your post was uncalled for.

[Yalta]

Darklady,

 

Sorry I was going to let your comment go, but you are sort of being rude being in the thread that I started asking me what I am doing here. Cant you see that there is progress being made both by people on this board and myself as well? I thought your post was uncalled for.

 

Much agreed. You have a concern and many of us are trying to help you with it, and there is progress being made here. I felt that comment was inappropriate and not helpful.

[Guest Justyna]

Darklady,

 

And another thing..I have clearly stated that I have learned a lot by being on this board. (Maybe others learned from me as well). Is that a sufficient reason to be here? I hope so. Also, I was a member here in the first place because I was in the process of becoming an ex-christian. Never really happened, I went back...but that is why I came here originally. Then I had a change of heart.

 

I am a Christian..but I have friends who are ex-christians and who are atheists. My dad is a strong atheist. Nothing wrong with trying to better understand where they are coming from etc. Just because you dont get anything from me, doesnt mean someone wont.

[nightflight]

I'm a Satanist-Reformed. We're a little looser.

[Guest Justyna]

Wait..what is Satanist-Reformed mean? Sorry I dont know. Does it mean you are no longer a Satanist? What kinds of things do you believe? Just curious because I never heard that term used before.

[Yalta]

I think nightflight's joking.

[Guest Justyna]

Oh..lol..shows how much I know about Santanism....Nothing!

 

How do I change my photo? I know I go to edit my profile, and I did that but the new one wont show up for some reason. I saved it and everything, it was not too large or anything. Strange.

 

ETA: Nevermind..I got it.

[Crazy Donna]

Shyone,

 

Yeah I see your point. I really dont know what exactly he believes since like I said we did not have the "religion" talk. I just heard his songs, and then saw that it says "atheist" in the religion section of his profile. So that is all I have to go off of. His facebook is filled with things about anti-christinaity, both by him and his friends. I feel so sad..what if something really horrible happened to him that made him like this? What if he had a bad experience? Hes really smart and very sensitive, so maybe someone hurt him or something. Dont know...wish I did. Maybe he is disappointed in God or something...he said his whole life is his music now...so obviously its coming from a deep and personal place. It makes me sad and worry cause I see the pain in him through his music. Wish I could take it away from him and make it better. I know I cant..I know that even if I explained the Bible to him and told him that God really does love him etc ...its not going to make one difference. Its not going to ease his pain.

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that christianity poisons your relationships with others.

 

REad back over what you wrote. Read it carefully.

 

You assume he is angry. You assume he is hurting. Maybe he's not. Maybe he's just using music as catharsis. I'm a creative person, and I let my emotions out through creativity, but it doesn't mean that if I express sadness or pain through something that I am overwhelmed with sadness or pain, or that the sadness or pain is current. I could simply be referring to something I experienced years ago and have recovered from.

 

Maybe he did what most of us did (people who have actually deconverted from christianity and are atheists) and saw all the holes in christianity for what they were, and realised (not decided, realised) that god doesn't exist? In which case, apart from some minor disappointment at how he's spent his life, and some minor adjustments in thinking, he is exactly the same as he was when he was a christian?

 

You assume anyone who isn't a christian is miserable or has problems. THey don't. My life is just fine and dandy. It is far better now that I'm not a christian, and I don't have to accept the raping of my intellect by bronze aged nonsense. I know what freedom is in a way you as a christian could never know, because I don't have to refer everything to god, or see everything as god. I can choose right from wrong based on what harms others or what helps them, not on what some stupid book says.

 

I'll bet you if you asked this guy what he prefered to be, he'd probably say atheist. I don't think he'd say christian, because if he's really deconverted (and not rebelling against it) he'd see christianity for the life ruining mind fuck it is.

 

Deep down, you're sad for the following reasons.

You are upset that he doesn't agree with you about christianity.

You think he is going to burn in hell for eternity because he is not a christian.

 

If you're a moral person, you'll realise that he's a nice person, and that he doesn't deserve to burn in hell for not believing in god. But you side with god anyway. So much for god being good, if he's going to send your friend to hell.

 

I don't know if you're capable of being this guy's friend, honestly. You are always going to approach the relationship feeling superior because you are a christian and you think that he is misled. You will not be able to value his opinions because they are not 'from god'. What you posted above is proof enough that these beliefs are engrained in you too deeply for you to have a meaningful relationship with this guy. I'm telling you, he cannot be 'disappointed in god' if he doesn't believe in god. You cannot understand his perspective if you believe this could possibly be an option for how he feels. As a christian, you have opinions about the world and about others that you think, because you are a christian, are 100% right. That means that no matter what he says, you will still believe you are right, because that's what christianity tells you. Why would he want a friend who always thinks they are right and that there is something inherently wrong with him?