Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Question For Other Ex-Xtians


Xerces

Recommended Posts

Being an xtian sort of gives you a pre-determined outlook on life, you can believe in "good & evil", you can cling to the idea that "god" has a plan that encompasses the whole universe, and best of all, you can attribute everything that is wrong with the world to "satan" or "evil", or even "sin".

 

Since leaving xtianity awhile ago, I still like to believe that I have a structured idea within my grasp of why exactly things happen,and that I know the difference between whats right and whats wrong. I mean I pretty much don't do anything to hurt anybody, but, for example what if I was a soldier that had to kill people, what then? Once I crossed that line of taking someones' life away from them, then what?

 

I haven't really read the entire Selfish Gene yet, but I recall Dawkins saying something about us having to teach our kids altruism. I'd have to go back and verify it.. But it sparks my interest, I mean, if there is no set list of morals, then we really just manufacture them for ourselves then? Individually too, one person could find no shame in doing one action, while the other would find it beneath them, even "evil".

 

I dunno, I just seem to struggle sometimes, especially when I read the news only to find more problems, or really fucked up shit happening, which seems to be every other day. It'd be nice just to kick this under the rug, and be content with it all,but it just, itches my thoughts.

 

All the suffering, all the ruthless competition, the lethality of the universe itself, just seems really pointless sometimes. I'm not depressed or anything, it just doesn't make sense, for this to be the way things are. I try not to think about it too much. Oh-well, anyway, I look forward to replies. :Old:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Goodbye Jesus

All those problems and fucked up shit were still there as a Christian. Except then you would blame Satan or say it was "God's will" instead of placing the blame on just people being people or natural events. You also don't need Christianity to have a set of moral values. Society manufactures them with or without a "God". Individuals can have their own moral compass outside of society and there is nothing wrong with that. Some people see having a threesome or watching porn is "evil" even if they are not particularily religious. So what? I you don't ascribe to their viewpoint then stay away from that person or topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think your questioning about morality implies that each individual has complete free will so that each person can, for example, choose to be a murderer or not to be one. I don't think it's that simple. For example, I don't choose not to be a murderer. I'm not a murderer and never will be. It's not in my makeup. It's not who I am. Could I kill someone? I never have done so and I hope to enter the grave never having killed another human being, but I am absolutely certain that I could kill someone if required to protect my family from being raped or murdered. But even that would not be complete free will at work. First, it would be as a result of the actions of another person over whom I had no control. Second, to protect my family from harm is who I am. I wouldn't choose to do it, it would be me acting in comformity with who I am.

 

It is with this understanding that I totally disagree with Christians who proudly proclaim that to abandon god is to open yourself to committing all sorts of horrors. If one is not a horrible person then one will not do horrible things. The murderers, thieves, rapists and other assorted of lowlifes we hear about in the news all the time, commit these horrible acts because they are horrible people. Of course, some of them (not the psychopaths, though) can be dissuaded from doing such horrible things if they are threatened either by someone with a gun there to stop them or if they perceive the chances that they will be caught, prosecuted and punished according to the law are extremely high. But that threat to them doesn't change who they are. It merely invokes their own sense of self-preservation and desire for freedom which overrides their horrible personas.

 

If one is a "good" person as a Christian, then that person will remain a "good" person after leaving Christianity. If one is a "bad" person before becoming a Christian, that person will remain a "bad" person even as a Christian.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Xerces, the whole question of morality without god was something I struggled with for a long time too.

 

I don't claim to have all the answers, but there were a couple of things that helped me come to terms with it.

 

First, christians (and other religions) don't have a lock on morality. In fact, for every moral question you'll get about as many answers from christians as there are christians. Just think about abortion (some christians are against it under all circumstances, some say it's ok to save the mother's life, some say it's the mother's choice, etc.) All of them claim to be able to back up their particular viewpoint using the bible. The bible says nothing against slavery and in fact tells slaves to obey their masters and for masters to treat their slaves well. Nowhere does the bible say that owning another human is evil.

 

Even when some christians agree on moral topics that doesn't mean they are any better than the rest of us. Christians comit crimes at the same rates as the rest of us (some studies show that they are more crime-prone than atheists).

 

I'd also say that christianity is anti-moral in many aspects. How moral is it to tell children they are so evil they will burn in hell for the rest of their lives unless they agree to love and obey an invisible being. Talk about child abuse!

 

It is a little frightening to think that there is no absolute moral code. It's up to reasoning, fair adults to determine what morals are, and to put legal and policing systems in place to make sure that those who don't care about the rights of others are isolated from the rest of society.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you have to chalk it up to people being people. Some people have mental problems some have physical problems and you can see that in every society whether they are christian or not. It sucks, but it is a part of life I guess. There are tribes of people that have never seen anyone outside of their little village. They don't know about god. Do they worship sun gods, rain gods, etc.? Of course they do it is the way we seem to justify things and it is no different than the god that christians worship. For some reason people seem to like thinking that things are out of their hands, or it is god's will, etc. Why believing in a god would make this easier I for one do not know.

 

 

Back to the tribes - I am certain that these tribes could clearly see that certain actions brought certain results and they adapted their lives to avoid the ones that brought bad things. Does throwing someone down a volcano to appease their god make much sense? Then again how many crazy things are in the bible? If they got sick from eating deer meat then they weren't going to eat it. They might invent some crazy story about why they weren't going to eat it (the sun god was mad at them, etc.). If someone killed someone in the tribe I am sure they could clearly feel and see the pain it brought to their families and that is why they probably tried to avoid murdering someone.

 

If someone stole food then no one would get dinner. That would be bad. If no one stole food everyone ate and that was good. If they worked together they survived. I think it is more for survival than anything else. You have to work together to meet everyone's needs.

 

I think many things in the bible (I see the bible as more of a history book - at least some parts) applied to the people living then. For example it mentions not eating pork. I don't think that this was an order from god. I think the people saw that they got sick from it and in order not to get sick they made it a "law". That can apply to so many things going on in any given period. It does not mean that any god made it a law - men made it a law. Just like they wrote the bible. It was to rule people to a large degree. Clearly some of the laws were for the good of the people and unfortunately there were just as many that were horrible.

 

I know one thing, if you can see that what you are doing hurts people then it is wrong. I don't need anyone to tell me that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Altruism is just basic pack behavior: benefit of the pack insures survival of the species. Not a xian concept. And xians certainly don't have a monopoly on, or even a firm grasp of morals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All the suffering, all the ruthless competition, the lethality of the universe itself, just seems really pointless sometimes. I'm not depressed or anything, it just doesn't make sense, for this to be the way things are.

The hard fact is that people are what they are and life is what it is. Whatever we can do to make this world a better place, we do on our own. There is no sky buddy tipping the scales in our favor or making sure it all comes out in the wash eventually. And speaking of "eventually", there is no afterlife to defer closure to.

 

The basic appeal of religion is that it provides faux guarantees and certainties where they don't actually exist. How to deal with this? Well, I tell myself that there is no point in being wistful over losing something that I never actually had in the first place. So when I wish, for example, that I could pray for protection or justice, I make that wish go away instantly by reminding myself that there was never anyone actually listening or acting on those prayers anyway. All I'm missing is a vaguely comforting ritual. And then I try to figure out what I can actually do, if anything, to protect myself or my loved ones, or bring justice to me / them.

 

Basically, deconversion is the process of accepting that you're living alone, and you're going to die alone, other than the temporary company of whatever fellow human beings there may be who chose to be part of your life. That all things are impermanent and impersonal. And realizing that it was always this way.

 

The most challenging part of that is probably finding common cause with others based on something more prosaic and less sexy than being the adopted children of God Almighty. But think about it -- what you have in common with people apart from the faith is real, not contrived. Ultimately it's more rewarding.

 

I try to make it my mission to discover the humanity within myself and within others. To do good because I want to rather than because I'm supposed to. To try to leave things a little better than I find them wherever I go. And also, to find enjoyment and meaning in my daily activities. Ultimately this is all there is, and it's plenty to keep me occupied.

 

As for the things I don't have the answers to and don't understand ... I learn to leave them alone. I try to find the scope of things I understand and care about and have the power to act on, and limit my efforts to those things. I try to constantly expand my understanding and caring and power, so that I can do more good in the world. But I just learn not to over-reach.

 

Some random thoughts for what they are worth. Hope it helps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.