Question For The Christians

[Sconnor]

 

Well, that make four of you......Jesus....the story describes Heaven....heck, it even describe a promise land in the OT....the stones brought across the Jordan....set up on the other side...the foundation. But can you boneheads invision this as the New Jerusalem, the protection being delivered to a promise land, the foundation of the twelve apostles and house built of living stones that are not corrupt. NO, you can't. It's all here and now, ignoring all things pointing to a reality you can't fucking invision. BLIND it says.......go fucking figure you probably ignore that too. Idiots....most of you.

 

Edit: Rom 12:19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord.

 

 

 

end is going nuts......

 

Understatement of the year.

 

 

Actually dumbass, that would be incorrect....if you were to look at the numbers regarding manic and depressive moods....I am sure that I am within the norm for End3......."going" would have been a statement you could have made for me at about age 12 thanks to evil circumstances.....

 

LOL – more rancor from end -- the one who could care less.

 

but thanks for letting everyone know you have no clue about what the fuck you are talking about.

 

We have more than a clue…

 

We ALL know you have a bipolar personality disorder, by your own admission, that is still ongoing.

 

Funny how the loving church community, the house of god and love through the holy spirit hasn’t remedied your ongoing mental illness.

 

Much like the example I gave where the parents let their child suffer and die, using your third grade superstitious method of help, in lieu of medical intervention which would have saved her life and spared her ALL that suffering.

 

--S.

 

 

yeah, how did medicine work for Connor Scott?

 

Yep but then again doctors are fallible and Connor had a rare form of leukemia that ONLY two other children in the country had.

 

Had Connor been diagnosed with the leukemia most common to children -- the medicine and techniques used in the 21st century would have given Connor an 80%-90% survival rate.

 

Furthermore, I was Christian back then and we had the entire loving church community praying for Connor. We had prayer circles, at the hospital and we were on every church’s prayer list across the country and ever since Connor was born, I evoked the holy spirit, praying this simple prayer every day: please keep my child safe (please protect my child from harm) which fell on deaf divine ears, where your beloved god did NOTHING. My child suffered egregiously for months, only to die from a massive heart attack, that sent friends and family spiraling into despair.

 

There is no question that fallible humanity has NOT conquered ALL of life’s maladies – you know being fallible and all.

 

What’s your god’s excuse?

 

--S.

[Sconnor]

 

 

WAY over the line end.

 

 

No, see Kyle, you response is subjective......and this conversation per Scott's delusion is objective.

 

WAY over the line and you know it.

 

...and of course Xtians NEVER divorce or fuck around on their spouses. Of course.

 

And he was arguing that faith didn't cure....causing suffering. I was stating that science doesn't always cure....causing suffering...his own.

 

That’s right you have no evidence that superstitious mumbo-jumbo, such as faith can heal.

 

But we do have objective evidence that modern medicine can help.

 

And I never made the claim that doctors and medicine can cure everything.

 

I’ll tell you what end, next time you need medicine for an infection or have to go to the hospital because you are seriously injured -- you go ahead and refuse medical intervention of the 21st century and solely rely on your fucked up method of protecting yourself.

 

--S.

[Sconnor]

And Scott, where are all you good sons a bitches offering me help with my personality disorder? All I am getting is more alienation from the group causing me more disorder. Surely there is one doctor in the house with a good heart that won't charge me? See, with the church you get help sometimes without even asking.....out of their heart. I am surprised I have to ask this of you, all you good bastards.

 

Where’s your loving christian community, the holy spirit and a good, loving christian psychiatrist (an actual psychiatrist with a doctorate) who can get you on the correct meds that you need and monitor you?

[Guest end3]

What’s your god’s excuse?

 

--S.

 

He's trying to get a message across to vain assholes like yourself.

[Mister Pappy]

Let's say Pappy that your assessment is accurate.....that through my father's abandonment of our family at a critical jucture in my and my siblings lives, that we are all cookoo as you and Scott wish to establish. Just where am I to run?

 

RUN, DON"T WALK, to a good doctor immediately! There is medication available now that has been remarkably productive in treating the symptoms that you have. Don't sit there and loose everyone and everything that you have, or possibly might ever have, while hoping that God or the Church fixes it for you - that isn't going to happen.

 

... and God that affords me protection from the harm.

You just got through admitting, a few posts back, that it isn't God that protects. Loss of memory is also a symptom of the disorders you likely suffer from.

 

Edit: And ask yourself Pappy.....is this a make believe story like Santa, or is this real.....subjectivity and all.

I'm not certain what story you're talking about. I think you are under the impression that you have told some kind of "simple story" in this thread. You keep commenting that we can't understand your "3rd grade" story. Maybe the problem is that understanding 3rd graders can be difficult at best. Try communicating more like an adult, and we might catch on faster.

 

the people within the church at least attempt to offer help, rather than tout doing nothing

Did you misunderstand my statement, that you should seek help, to mean that you should do nothing? You absolutely DO need to do something. I don't know you at all, except for what I have seen on here in the last couple of days - I am very new to this forum - but it doesn't take a genius to see that you have major problems, and you SHOULD deal with them sooner rather than later. I seriously doubt that anyone in your church is qualified, and if your God were going to help, he is either seriously tardy or isn't bright enough to recognize that there is a problem.

 

With his bipolar, schizophrenic tendencies -- is it any wonder he claims to have been in the presence of his god-man and that he knows god’s will and character?

No, his disorder could explain most of his behavior, and you are right, he seems to suffer from delusions as well.

 

Oh, additionally -- do you remember when he made the claim he doesn’t have contempt for anyone anymore.

 

This seems to be in error as evidenced by his contemptuous posts here – huh?

In his defense, I don't think he can be held accountable for a lot of what he says. I feel bad for him, to a degree. He needs help. I hope he begins to look in the right places for that help, where it can actually be found.

 

As a side note: Even with help, I think end3 could easily be the type of guy who would streak the mall with nothing but a jock strap and a German Army helmet on, if the moon were to tilt the slightest bit to the right ....

[Guest end3]

And Scott, where are all you good sons a bitches offering me help with my personality disorder? All I am getting is more alienation from the group causing me more disorder. Surely there is one doctor in the house with a good heart that won't charge me? See, with the church you get help sometimes without even asking.....out of their heart. I am surprised I have to ask this of you, all you good bastards.

 

Where’s your loving christian community, the holy spirit and a good, loving christian psychiatrist (an actual psychiatrist with a doctorate) who can get you on the correct meds that you need and monitor you?

 

 

Actually asshole, I can go to my local phone book and look up Christian counseling.....reduced rates if not free, paid for by donations from the church.

[Guest end3]

As a side note: Even with help, I think end3 is the type of guy who might streak the mall with nothing but a jock strap and a German Army helmet on, if the moon were to tilt the slightest bit to the right ....

 

That was a good laugh. You must be from the streaker generation yourself I gather....lol.

 

Edit: lol, do I have a choice in colors for the helmet(s).

[Guest end3]

RUN, DON"T WALK, to a good doctor immediately! There is medication available now that has been remarkably productive in treating the symptoms that you have.

 

Been there.....remarkably productive in achieving a state of zombie from the side effects...and the extras like sexual side effects....maybe you could be more specific.

 

I'm not certain what story you're talking about. I think you are under the impression that you have told some kind of "simple story" in this thread. You keep commenting that we can't understand your "3rd grade" story. Maybe the problem is that understanding 3rd graders can be difficult at best. Try communicating more like an adult, and we might catch on faster.

 

The story I was referencing was my own.

 

Did you misunderstand my statement, that you should seek help, to mean that you should do nothing? You absolutely DO need to do something. I don't know you at all, except for what I have seen on here in the last couple of days - I am very new to this forum - but it doesn't take a genius to see that you have major problems, and you SHOULD deal with them sooner rather than later. I seriously doubt that anyone in your church is qualified, and if your God were going to help, he is either seriously tardy or isn't bright enough to recognize that there is a problem.

 

And again, my point.....you mirror the standard response of non believers.....YOU should do something, not I will help you find help.....end of responsibility for the good non believing human.

 

No, his disorder could explain most of his behavior, and you are right, he seems to suffer from delusions as well.

 

yeah yeah, save it.

[Mister Pappy]

That was a good laugh. You must be from the streaker generation yourself I gather....lol.

 

Edit: lol, do I have a choice in colors for the helmet(s).

I have never personally streaked anything but my own front yard after the Saints won the Super Bowl ... but I've been tempted on a few occasions. The helmet color is totally your option!

 

Been there.....remarkably productive in achieving a state of zombie from the side effects...and the extras like sexual side effects....maybe you could be more specific.

There is a buffet of them out there. The one that works for Mr. A, screws Mr. B completely up, so there is some trial and error in the process of finding a fit. My wife's father has bi-polar disorder, so we have been down this road. It can take some time to work through it all, but the good news is, you CAN get better.

 

And again, my point.....you mirror the standard response of non believers.....YOU should do something, not I will help you find help.....end of responsibility for the good non believing human.

Try to keep it real end3. I am communicating with you via an internet discussion board. If you lived next door to me, I would be there to personally help you - as long as you would put some pants on over the jock strap and not try to beat me to death with the German army helmet. However, the bottom line is going to be the same regardless of who may be available to assist you. It is YOU who will need to take action. If you are looking for someone to MAKE you help yourself, there could be a long wait. So, get off you ass, call a friend, or whoever is available to you. Stop being negative, stop counting on God to fix this for you, and move forward so that you can live again - happily that is. I don't think you are happy right now, and you are having trouble thinking - part of the disease.

 

Don't assume that non-believers don't care about other people. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Guest end3]

That was a good laugh. You must be from the streaker generation yourself I gather....lol.

 

Edit: lol, do I have a choice in colors for the helmet(s).

I have never personally streaked anything but my own front yard after the Saints won the Super Bowl ... but I've been tempted on a few occasions. The helmet color is totally your option!

 

Been there.....remarkably productive in achieving a state of zombie from the side effects...and the extras like sexual side effects....maybe you could be more specific.

There is a buffet of them out there. The one that works for Mr. A, screws Mr. B completely up, so there is some trial and error in the process of finding a fit. My wife's father has bi-polar disorder, so we have been down this road. It can take some time to work through it all, but the good news is, you CAN get better.

 

And again, my point.....you mirror the standard response of non believers.....YOU should do something, not I will help you find help.....end of responsibility for the good non believing human.

Try to keep it real end3. I am communicating with you via an internet discussion board. If you lived next door to me, I would be there to personally help you - as long as you would put some pants on over the jock strap and not try to beat me to death with the German army helmet. However, the bottom line is going to be the same regardless of who may be available to assist you. It is YOU who will need to take action. If you are looking for someone to MAKE you help yourself, there could be a long wait. So, get off you ass, call a friend, or whoever is available to you. Stop being negative, stop counting on God to fix this for you, and move forward so that you can live again - happily that is. I don't think you are happy right now, and you are having trouble thinking - part of the disease.

 

Don't assume that non-believers don't care about other people. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

Well here's the deal....I don't score high enough on any of the test to qualify for foobarred....rational enough, yet angry on occasion...so if I show up in a "normal to society" mode....then it's "ahh, end, you are normal". I agree and I wonder myself, but it would be a low grade disorder.

 

And does not "conforming" to a social standard necessitate some treatment to "become normal"?

[Mister Pappy]

And does not "conforming" to a social standard necessitate some treatment to "become normal"?

I am not suggesting the kind of "trivial" professional help that your statement above suggests. My amateur (non-professional) conclusion is as follows:

Whatever disorder or disorders you have been dealing with has / have had an affect on your memory, ability to reason, discernment between real and not real, anger management skills, and lucidity of thought processes.

Meaning no offense to you, I don't want to spend much more time talking about this in the public forum, as it isn't really appropriate - pm me if you need to talk to someone. I will try to help if I can, but you either will or will not do what is necessary to help yourself with the assistance of those people directly around you. Good luck to you in your efforts.

 

As for having a productive discussion or debate with you regarding spiritual matters, I think that may be more effort than I am interested in, unless we can proceed in the spirit of mutual respect.

[Abiyoyo]

 

Define "misinformed" and show exactly why the sin of unbelief is an infidel meme, unsupported by other Christians or the Bible.

Also show that Jews actually believe in a triune God, which is the same God as Yahweh.

 

There are thousands of different sects of Christianity, some have different thoughts on our eternal whereabouts. There are some Christian groups that do believe that the sin of unbelief is not an eternal sin. Last I checked, unbelief is the meat and potatoes of the whole religion in whole, witnessing to those that don't believe, never heard, showing the Christian Godpowers^TM to the unbelieving. So, different sects have different views.

[Abiyoyo]

Right. So, Christ and eternal life doesn't really apply to a Jew, unless, people take the Word's of Christ and says they will burn in hell because they are Jewish.

What was actually challenged in the OP's question was the premise that Christianity teaches that god would condemn someone for not believing in Jesus. LNC called that position an "infidel meme." It was demonstrated from biblical texts that Jesus taught the condemnation of those who do not believe.

 

And the premise is not that Anne Frank or other Jews would burn because they are Jewish, but that they would be condemned for not believing in Jesus as the Messiah.

 

Point goes back to what I originally said, it's not up to us to decide anyhow, because we aren't God.

 

Ok. I get it that your response to the question originally posted is "Who knows? Only God knows." That's not really what the OP was going for. I think the point of the question was to get an explanation of the justice of that Christian position. I guess the christian reluctance to even hypothetically put themselves in god's place is too great.

 

But, the topic went toward what the 'Bible' says about it, and there's answers for that too. Answers for everything.

 

If by answers you mean opinions generated at the spur of the moment with little or no coherent basis, then I agree with you. There are many answers. If by answers you mean there are many doctrinal positions based on painstaking study of the biblical texts and church traditions, then yes. There are many answers.

 

If you mean there is a legitimate answer, I have yet to see one spelled out clearly.

 

 

If you mean there is a legitimate answer, I have yet to see one spelled out clearly.

I suspect you won't see one either Oddbird. The mad scramble to twist this into something other than what it is, should be proof of that.

 

 

No, was pretty clear. Only God knows, and I pointed out a few things to consider about the translation of verses being used to identify with the OP intial point, which was No Jesus, you go to hell.

[Abiyoyo]

According to the book, (and the common Christian understanding), we are born condemned. The only way out is belief in Jesus. In practice one is condemned unless he has the belief, so that is tantamount to being condemned for non-belief. I understand the nuance that makes this somehow all our own fault, but it seems irrelevant to the OP.

 

Have you ever with your own two eyes seen Hell, or a person there? I think what we are trying to do here is take a general question, regarded by most fundamental Christians as rule and stamp it 'guaranteed'. If unbelief is the key to Hell, then we all own a key.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Hey Oddbird,

 

Has LNC addressed John 3:18 at post #66?

 

--S.

 

Hey Sconner,

 

Yeah I addressed the question ( though for LNC), and got some grumbling back with no real argument back and it got scoffed off into the trash with every other legitimate answer any Christian ever gives around here.

 

Judged, the word can mean judged. Let me give context. I saw my kids misbehaving and condemned them. I saw my kids misbehaving and judged them. Though those to words have different meanings in todays spectrum, they have a connection in which Oddbird noted. The thing is though that IF there is a part of the Bible that is controversial in grammar and one way reads eternal damnation, and the other 'possible' eternal damnation; that would suggest further context with the whole subject, topic.

 

So, it is established there is some wording issues, yet, this verse keeps getting brought up as 'the verse' that declares belief in Jesus or hell.

[Abiyoyo]

That makes three of you incapable of understanding something so fucking simplistic.....

Okay, I get it now ... you are a nut job. It just came to me. Your sentences are incoherent. You can't carry focus across more than 1/3 of a paragraph. Conversation over. I don't have the correct degree to help you.

 

I saw what he said and I also see this in a certain fashion. Though very horrific things happen everyday, that doesn't necessarily mean that God isn't protecting human kind. We live on a dot in this multi-complex thing called space where there are all kinds of events happening within certain parameters. We apparently are the sole one that has life as we know it. Everyday, the sun rises and sets. That may seem moot, but it is relevant. I think on an individual basis, God's protection is either random or absent.

[Sconnor]

What’s your god’s excuse?

 

--S.

 

He's trying to get a message across to vain assholes like yourself.

 

Then, your ALL POWERFUL, CREATOR OF THE INFINITE UNIVERSE AND BEYOND, is doing a shitty, piss poor job – isn’t he? You would think that if an ALL POWERFUL DEITY such as your god-man with his holy spirit magic wanted to get his message to me he could.

 

That would be really great end – since its sooooo important to get his message to me and being the ALL-powerful god that he is; he knows exactly where to find me and he can deliver his ALL-important messages to me personally, this way he can share with me concisely and unequivocally what he wants me to know and I don’t have to rely on some bat-shit crazy, lunatic christian asshole, like yourself, that makes bullshit, crazy-assed claims you can NOT substantiate.

 

But I digress – you made the bullshit claim god protects us from harm.

 

Which -- in reality and throughout history – it is a fact that ALL people suffer and get harmed. Where’s the fucking protection?

 

When questioned how does god protect us from harm you had to dig deep in your bullshit bag of tricks and contradict yourself that god doesn’t protect us from harm, we (humanity) are now in charge.

 

But in an effort to cover your convoluted tracks you must somehow bridge a colossal chasm that shows god still has something to do with how humanity protects us from harm (because you said god protects us from harm) by suggesting god gives man authority to manage the conflict via the Holy Spirit in your 3rd grade bully story.

 

But as we can plainly see, this bullshit method of protection has NO reference in reality because your loving church community, the house of god and love through the holy spirit hasn’t remedied your ongoing mental illness, and every second of everyday people are suffering and being harmed – even wrapped in the holy spirit, drenched in faith christian fucks like yourself. Again, where’s the protection?

 

So not only is your loony drawn-out explanation of god protecting us a pile of steaming horseshit for the reasons mentioned above but it also can NOT be substantiated with ANY credible verifiable evidence outside your deranged rationalization that you just pulled out of your ass.

 

When people protect people from harm is it only through the holy spirit?

 

Because non-christians protect people from harm too – does god bestow the magical holy spirit on non-christians as well?

 

We can agree people help people; people protect people from harm but we have no way of verifying god has anything to do with it.

 

Is this really a plan from an ALL-knowing, ALL-powerful deity who wants to protect his earthly children?

 

Knowing people are still egregiously harmed everyday it would seem god’s plan is morbidly incompetent – it’s not working. It’s almost like a god has nothing to do with it.

 

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm?

 

Bottom line is you do NOT have any credible knowledge of a living god doing ANYTHING – including protecting his earthly children by giving man authority to manage the conflict via the holy spirit.

 

And this opens a whole other can of worms for you – what happens to the holy spirit when men harm other men?

 

Does satan have the power to circumvent god’s plan by obliterating the holy spirit?

 

This whole magical holy spirit thing has epic flaws -- doesn’t it?

 

--S.

[Abiyoyo]

Let me explain it in a nice story.....well, the bullies are chasing the nice children home from school. The nice children run into the refuge of the house that their father built. The people that reside in the house then contribute to affording protection for the residents that believe in the purpose of the house. Dad says, "don't hurt the bullies while I am gone, because I am coming back to evaluate your actions as well as theirs".

 

This is so simple, I think even Sconnor can understand.

 

Edit: wait, let me give you some more clues.....the bullies would be those opposed to Christ. The nice children would be Christians. The Father, aka Dad, would be Christ. And the house would be the church.

 

Edit Edit: a quicky verse that gives man authority to manage the confict via the Holy Spirit...

 

Mar 6:7 Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits.

 

I get what your saying and will add that this line of thought has been enlightening for me as well. Alot of ministers use this for explaining how we need to 'work for God' and we are his servants. I always saw it as a bigger picture, almost as we are here tending God's garden, and people keep killing the tending patrons.

[Mister Pappy]

I guess the christian reluctance to even hypothetically put themselves in god's place is too great.

It is obvious that a Christian's reluctance to answer the question has more to do with foreknowledge of the questions that will inevitably follow their answer and the Christian's desire not to be put in a position of having to answer those questions, as opposed to having such a holy, pious and subservient demeanor in relation to the almighty judgement of God, as you have suggested in the comment above. The reason for the perpetual dodge is clearly due to the fact that all roads lead to faith for the Christian believer, and faith, in general, is the point where Christianity begins to unravel itself from logic and starts to smack of the deliberate burial of ones head in the proverbial sand in an effort to maintain the all-important salvation that comes only through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

Your implication that the Christian is merely cautious of putting themselves in God's place - judging others, is truly ridiculous. I find it hard to believe that you would expect anyone here to buy that excuse. If "only God knows what sends one to hell", then how the hell do you know if YOU are going to heaven or hell? It seems to me that the Christian's job is entirely wrapped up in letting others know that they are "lost" - going to hell - and then telling them what they must do to be saved. Thusly, on one hand, you all seem to know who is lost and who is not, as well as what they should do to remedy the situation, but when put in the position you're now in and knowing that more intense questions will follow, seem strangely and conveniently confused about who is lost and going to hell, or what they must do to be saved.

 

I have said it already, here in this thread, and I will repeat it again. The tactics being used in the last 10 or so pages to avoid giving a clear answer, are elementary and as transparent as the emperor's new clothes! I'm amazed that there is no limit to the depth of the hole you guys are all willing to dig for yourself. My head is spinning at the lack of concern for the damage being done to your credibility as honest and open-minded individuals who cherish "truth" above personal ego. Your salvation does not lie in the protection of old ideas as truth, no matter the cost to your integrity. Your salvation is found in none other than the ability to discover the truth at any cost, including the sacrifice of old ideas and personal egos. Knowledge is salvation.

[Crazy Donna]

 

 

Hey Oddbird,

 

Has LNC addressed John 3:18 at post #66?

 

--S.

 

Hey Sconner,

 

Yeah I addressed the question ( though for LNC), and got some grumbling back with no real argument back and it got scoffed off into the trash with every other legitimate answer any Christian ever gives around here.

 

Judged, the word can mean judged. Let me give context. I saw my kids misbehaving and condemned them. I saw my kids misbehaving and judged them. Though those to words have different meanings in todays spectrum, they have a connection in which Oddbird noted. The thing is though that IF there is a part of the Bible that is controversial in grammar and one way reads eternal damnation, and the other 'possible' eternal damnation; that would suggest further context with the whole subject, topic.

 

So, it is established there is some wording issues, yet, this verse keeps getting brought up as 'the verse' that declares belief in Jesus or hell.

Maybe you should check what the wording was in the original Greek?

 

I actually bothered to. The word was krinetai, or 'is being judged'. It is from krino, 'to judge'. The word for condemn is "katadikazto", which simply means that someone is sentenced to something as a consequence of the decision. The word in this verse is 'judged' not 'condemned'.

 

Interestingly, in the preceding verse, the term used in that sentence is 'judge' as well. This means that belief in jesus apparently means you avoid being judged by god. But it says nothing about avoiding being condemned. So christians avoid being judged because they believe in jesus. They do not avoid being condemned.

 

I'm going to think about this a bit more and post later, as my academic bitch cortex is not currently fully engaged.

[OnceConvinced]

I can see that the Christians who have responded on this thread are clearly in denial (although one of them obviously isn't a true Christian at all judging by his foul mouth and lack of holy spirit fruits). If the bible is to be believed then Anne Franks is most definitely going to be writhing in hell, if she isn't already.

 

John 3:16 really says it all. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life.

 

So if you believe = you get eternal life.

If you don't believe = you perish.

 

It's simple logic. You can argue all you like about what it takes to be saved and what religious rituals you have to perform, but if you don't do these things, then you perish.

 

The question then becomes what does the word "perish" mean? Well I once argued on a popular Christian website that "perish" in the bible actually means annihilation. I was arguing against the notion that hell was a place of eternal suffering. However I had a Christian arguing that "perish" in biblical terms means "eternal suffering" and even come up with a Strongs concordance to attempt to prove that. I was even sent warnings from the moderators for dare arguing against core doctrine of the bible. So according to these Christians if you don't believe/accept Christ as your personal saviour, then you suffer for all eternity. And when you take into account the scripture "He who is not for me is against me" it shows even more that unbelievers will go to Hell.

 

Alas, it's quite obvious. Anne did not believe in Jesus, she did not accept him as her personal saviour. Because she was not for him, she was against him. If the bible is to be believed, Anne goes to Hell, whether it's eternal suffering, an execution by fire or simply death itself.

[OnceConvinced]

In short, the way I understand it is that humanity had the chance for sovereign protection but didn't opt for it

You are the one who made the claim, very clearly and boldly, that God is protecting mankind from evil. Please don't try and weasel out of what you said to begin with by now saying that man failed to select the correct option on his God insurance - for Pete's sake! You shouldn't trouble yourself, if this is the route you wish to travel, I have no interest in following you on your mentally unstable journey.

 

AS far as I'm concerned this scripture here is a promise from God:

 

Psa 91:9

Because you have made the lard, who is my refuge, Even the Most High, your dwelling place, No evil shall befall you,Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling.

 

If this scripture is not true today, then it's clearly a lie and a broken promise on God's behalf.

[oddbird1963]

 

 

Hey Oddbird,

 

Has LNC addressed John 3:18 at post #66?

 

--S.

 

Hey Sconner,

 

Yeah I addressed the question ( though for LNC), and got some grumbling back with no real argument back and it got scoffed off into the trash with every other legitimate answer any Christian ever gives around here.

 

Judged, the word can mean judged. Let me give context. I saw my kids misbehaving and condemned them. I saw my kids misbehaving and judged them. Though those to words have different meanings in todays spectrum, they have a connection in which Oddbird noted. The thing is though that IF there is a part of the Bible that is controversial in grammar and one way reads eternal damnation, and the other 'possible' eternal damnation; that would suggest further context with the whole subject, topic.

 

So, it is established there is some wording issues, yet, this verse keeps getting brought up as 'the verse' that declares belief in Jesus or hell.

 

 

Really? No answer back? I said, basically, that there is no real distinction between "judge" and "condemn" in this context. Your distinctions between "judge" and "condemn" were made up out of your imagination. You have no Greek New Testament lexical support for your analogies or definitions.

 

The passage (John 3:18) indicates that the person who does not believe is already condemned.

 

kekritai is 3rd person, perfect tense , passive voice, indicative mood. This means that the "judgment" or "condemnation" has already taken place on the one who does not believe.

 

Given the context of John 3:16 - 3:18 (perish,judge/condemn, etc) there is no practical difference between "judge" or "condemn" here.

 

BAGD, page 452 takes this position.

Oft. the emphasis is unmistakeably laid upon that which follows the Divine Judge's verdict, upon the condemnation, or punishment: condemn, punish . . . J 3:17; cf. 18a, b . . ."

 

The lexicon notes that the use of "condemn/punish" in these texts is the opposite of "to save."

 

Now the whole point of the discussion about John 3:18 is to refute LNC's claims that the bible does not teach or indicate that a person is condemned for not believing in Christ. When John 3:18 was cited, he ignored the verse because it stated that a person is condemned BECAUSE they do not believe.

 

So, now that we have established that the underlying Greek text uses the verb krino in the sense of condemned/damned/under the sentence of eternal condemnation, then perhaps LNC will answer why he just chose to ignore a verse which clearly contradicts his statements.

 

Thank you for offering a response about John 3:18, but it is not a viable answer. I know you feel you gave a legitimate answer, Abiyoyo. While you are welcome to maintain that position, it really isn't legitimate. This is not one of those passages where the word usage is unclear or controversial.

[Guest end3]

Your implication that the Christian is merely cautious of putting themselves in God's place - judging others, is truly ridiculous.

 

No it's not. For one, you can not know who I am in a wholly objective physical sense nor what my objective physical body yields in a subjective sense. So don't pretend that we can make judgements about such unless you have the data to back it up.

 

 

I find it hard to believe that you would expect anyone here to buy that excuse. If "only God knows what sends one to hell", then how the hell do you know if YOU are going to heaven or hell? It seems to me that the Christian's job is entirely wrapped up in letting others know that they are "lost" - going to hell - and then telling them what they must do to be saved. Thusly, on one hand, you all seem to know who is lost and who is not, as well as what they should do to remedy the situation, but when put in the position you're now in and knowing that more intense questions will follow, seem strangely and conveniently confused about who is lost and going to hell, or what they must do to be saved.

 

Preaching the gospel is hardly defining someone going to hell. You are removing a condition of the judgement......the Judge in this case.

 

I have said it already, here in this thread, and I will repeat it again. The tactics being used in the last 10 or so pages to avoid giving a clear answer, are elementary and as transparent as the emperor's new clothes! I'm amazed that there is no limit to the depth of the hole you guys are all willing to dig for yourself. My head is spinning at the lack of concern for the damage being done to your credibility as honest and open-minded individuals who cherish "truth" above personal ego. Your salvation does not lie in the protection of old ideas as truth, no matter the cost to your integrity. Your salvation is found in none other than the ability to discover the truth at any cost, including the sacrifice of old ideas and personal egos. Knowledge is salvation.

 

I assume you will post scripture to back your claim(s) of the last paragraph.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Interestingly, in the preceding verse, the term used in that sentence is 'judge' as well. This means that belief in jesus apparently means you avoid being judged by god. But it says nothing about avoiding being condemned. So christians avoid being judged because they believe in jesus. They do not avoid being condemned.

 

I'm going to think about this a bit more and post later, as my academic bitch cortex is not currently fully engaged.

 

I did a study on it about a year ago. In some verses, these words are used 3 or 4 times together. The thing about the King James Bible is that it is this way for hundreds of words.