Question For The Christians

September 12, 2010

I agree, bdp. And he's only studied it in a "good English translation", which I'm sure is NO MATCH for the original fucking language. *facepalm*

LNC doesn't know what he's talking about. He's been 'studying' this for thirty years, but he hasn't learned anything, other than to try to twist words to mean one thing when they patently mean another. He should run for public office. He's good at ignoring the facts and inventing his own truth.

And for that matter why should I keep studying the irrelevant minutiae of a mythology I've already, properly, rejected?

September 12, 2010

There is no concept of limbo in the Bible, that is Catholic teaching based upon apocryphal writings.

LNC

Since it was the Catholic church who ultimately decided what was canonical (authorized; recognized; accepted) vs. apocryphal (of doubtful authorship or authenticity), it seems an oxymoron to suggest that the Catholic church has based its teachings upon apocryphal writings. Overcoming such an obstacle would have been as simple as canonizing the necessary writing or inserting the desired theology into an already canonized text, as needed.

You have also suggested that there is no concept in the gospels of a "holding or temporary" dimension where souls are kept in a state of limbo until judgement day. It seems quite clear that Jesus visited such a place during the few days after his crucifixion and before his fabled resurrection - thats off the top of my head. I haven't spent any time, at all, researching other possible references.

As a final note, this entire discussion is hypothetical conjecture at best. For some reason, I have stooped to the level of debating the interpretation of texts and Christian theories which have yet to be proven as anything more than myth, fabrications, or in the best case scenario, biased hearsay.

In the interest of scholarship, or simply common sense, don't you think it would be prudent that we establish the veracity and authority of the information we have allowed ourselves to become entangled in here? At this point we might as well be debating whether Jacks beanstalk seeds were in the pea family or bean family. It truly is a bit embarrassing, now that I've stopped to think about it.

September 12, 2010

This same God who sent his own son to die a wicked death at the hands of these rebellious sinners.

He sent himself, right? Jesus is God, so God sent himself to die a wicked death.

What is it, exactly, that makes Jesus the son of God? Why the distinction, if he is God? I've never understood that, particularly when it is framed in this dramatic parent/child sacrifice fashion of God hurting at seeing his child hurt. God so loved the world, he sent his only son...who was...er...himself. So, I keep wondering if this is a misunderstanding of the father/son metaphor.

If you disagree, I would appreciate an explanation regarding the mechanism by which Jesus is made an offspring (direct descendent) of God.

Thanks.

Phanta

September 12, 2010

...It isn't not believing in Jesus that is the sin (although it is a sin to reject Jesus), but as Jesus said and was recorded earlier in John (3:36) the wrath remains on the people who do not trust in Jesus...

LOL!!! Without belief there can be no trust. They are inseparable.

TRUST(Webster's New World Dictionary):

1a: A firm belief or confidence in the honesty, integrity, reliability, justice, etc., of another person or thing; faith; reliance

This definition says why we don't believe. Sure, according to christianity we are condemned and can be saved only by believing AND trusting. BUT, when we no longer believe, we no longer trust and then are back to being condemned.

September 12, 2010

I think I get what you're saying. The Bible is clear of what is required to be saved and go to Heaven, which is that you have to believe. Agreed? But the Bible doesn't specifically say that people will go to Hell for not believing. Am I correct that this is your standpoint? If it is, what happens then to the people who does not believe? Is there some limbo they go to, or are they just plainly destroyed?

I agree that the Bible is clear about what is involved in salvation, it is trusting in Jesus and his death on the cross for payment of our sins. The Bible also makes it clear that it is sin that separates us from God for all eternity. As the Bible says, the one who has not believed, the wrath of God remains on him (John 3:36). The wrath was already upon the person for his/her sins and remains on the person because they rejected the only means of propitiation (removal of the wrath) and atonement (being brought back into favor and relationship with God). The person is not destroyed since he/she has been made in God's image, they are separate from God in hades until the final judgment, when those in hades will be sent to hell for eternity. There is no concept of limbo in the Bible, that is Catholic teaching based upon apocryphal writings.

LNC

So which part removes God's wrath? Was Jesus's atonement enough and complete? Then why is trust (faith) in it necessary? To not believe is NOT the same as rejecting. Rejection comes from knowing something to exist and be true and then still reject the offer. The salvation offer is just something people have to imagine, and the so called "rejection" of it more a matter of just not having enough belief that it is real.

Why it the language so harsh with religion? Why does it spin and use charged language like that? "You rejected my imaginary offer, therefore you will suffer my imaginary punishment for my imaginary reasons!!!" Why? If Jesus's sacrifice was ENOUGH to appease God's wrath, then nothing more is needed to appease it.

But if belief or faith in Jesus's sacrifice is need to fully remove God's wrath, then Jesus's sacrifice is not enough, it never fully removed God's wrath.

September 12, 2010

Acts 16:30-31 Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth.... As it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 10:9 If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

--S.

Seems rather straightforward, I think. Unless LNC argues that the word "believe" doesn't mean "believe."

Yes, these verses are straight forward about salvation, but we are discussing what is involved in condemnation, so they are not on point with the discussion. Yes, believe does mean believe and is means is.

LNC

I think I understand your argument, however, I feel that it's nothing but a clever way of spinning it.

You're saying: faith in Jesus will take you to Heaven, but God's wrath over you and your sin will bring you to Hell.

My interpretation is: faith in Jesus will take you to Heaven, lack in faith means that you will go to Hell.

It might not be the reason in itself that you go to Hell, but it is most definitely one of the attributes of a person who goes to Hell. What will be the main characteristics of the person going to Hell besides having God's wrath over them or them being sinful? They will all be unbelievers.

How about the people in Heaven? They will also have God's wrath over them, but it won't apply. And they will all be sinners too, because we are supposedly all sinners, but the main difference between them and the sinners in Hell is that they believe.

Put it in some shorter way:

1. Heaven people are sinners, and so are the Hell people.

2. Heaven people have God's wrath hanging over them (but it won't affect them), and the wrath is over the Hell people (affecting them).

3. Heaven people have faith in Jesus, the Hell people do not.

So what is the big difference between them? Not the wrath, not the sin, but the belief (faith, trust...).

Basically, what I'm saying is that God's wrath, Jesus's salvation, are all extraneous. The only thing that accounts for anything that happens to a person's eternal situation is faith.[/] Anything else is superfluous.

September 12, 2010

Regardless, god’s convoluted plan for salvation – which you took years of study to supposedly comprehend – relegates the majority of his earthly children to an eternity of suffering in hell.

This would include people like Anne Frank, Albert Einstein, Gandhi, American Indians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, primitive cultures, and so on.

It would also include the six million Jews of the holocaust – which was their virtual hell on earth.

ALL because they didn’t have your understanding of salvation.

The Christian’s Delusion Of Salvation

God -- who so loved the WORLD -- initiated a plan, of restoration, by sending his son, (himself) to be tortured, crucified and sacrificed, to save humanity. Sinful, fallible, humanity -- who couldn't possibly save themselves -- in the end, must accept and believe in Jesus,(Or LNC’s convoluted; interpretive “trusting” explanation of salvation) so they can be saved and yet, the other 70% of the world -- at this moment in time -- are other religions, the non-religious, or unbelievers, who are not bible-believing Christians. Didn't God consider his other earthly children, when he put his feeble, plan into action? Looks like Jesus' torturous, sacrifice was futile. God's inept, plan is incapable of saving everyone and hinges on the fallible humans, who couldn't save themselves, in the first place. God’s plan for salvation is tragically flawed, wholly inadequate and morbidly negligent. The number of lost souls, throughout history, is monumentally, mind-blowing.

--S.

I don't think you have been reading my posts closely enough. Let me say it again for clarity, no one who has lived, is living, or will live in the future is condemned for not having my understanding of salvation. No one is saved by having my understanding of salvation. People are condemned by our sinful and rebellious behavior against a good and loving God. This same God who sent his own son to die a wicked death at the hands of these rebellious sinners. You may call it a feeble plan, but it is only feeble in your eyes but that plan has saved me and all who have put their trust in Jesus, so it seems quite effective to me. It is effective for all who believe and yet, nothing will save those who choose to reject Jesus. So, in that case, there could be no plan effective enough to save a person like that. It is like throwing a life preserver to a drowning person only to have them push it away. The life preserver was sufficient to save the person; however, their rejection of the preserver means that the plan was ineffective. But then, it seems that it wasn't the fault of the plan, but of the person who rejected the plan.

LNC

Unbelievable. You certainly like to play semantic games – don’t you?

You have garnered a salvation-belief by your own idiosyncratic interpretation of scripture.

Other people have differing salvation beliefs based on their own particular interpretation of scripture.

Therefore, people have their own understanding of salvation – does this register? Does this make sense?

I never said people are saved because you have a particular understanding of salvation. The act of you believing doesn’t send people to heaven or hell.

My point was -- according to your particular understanding of scripture the six millon Jews of the holocaust; the ones who were brutally tortured and burned to death (there virtual hell on earth) will be tortured in hell for an eternity, because – as you believe – they are sinners and (being that they are Jewish) they do NOT believe in Christ – therefore they are destined to hell. They would never consider the life preserver because they do NOT hold your particular belief. How do you reconcile this?

In fact, the majority of god’s children do NOT hold your belief -- for whatever reason (another religion, unbelievers, never heard of your particular belief of god’s supposed message of salvation and so on).

So whose fault would that be? The infallible, all-knowing, all-powerful god, who – in reality -- can NOT convince his earthly children of his supposed message of salvation or fallible humanity who grew up in other belief systems, or never received the salvation message, or never received the correct salvation message (the one you hold), or like us unbelievers, haven’t been convinced that this message has ANY validity.

Regardless, your ALL-powerful god should have known that when he put his feeble plan into action the majority of his earthly children would not find this supposed message of salvation very convincing.

How could god NOT know this?

Either your ALL-loving god – who supposedly loved the world so much -- that he wanted to save everyone, doesn’t exist or he knew the majority of his earthly children wouldn’t believe in his message of salvation or receive the message of salvation but created them anyway knowing he was going to have them tortured in the flames of hell for an eternity.

Why did he create them anyway, knowing that the majority of his children were destined for hell?

The only two answers I can come up with are: he’s nothing but a human concept and doesn’t exist or he is a genocidal maniac -- a torturer of souls. What other answer could there be?

Quick point -- your analogy is fallacious because we know life preservers exist, we know life preservers can help a person float. We know people can drown. We know people exist. We know people can help other people.

We have no objective evidence that your invisible all-powerful triune christian god exists.

We have no objective evidence that humanity was cursed with sin that had to be remedied.

We have no objective evidence that Christ’s sacrifice actually happened.

We have no objective evidence that that this action (Christ’s sacrifice), coupled with the belief in Jesus and telepathically telling him we accept him, actually saves.

From where I’m sitting, ALL you have is unsubstantiated bullshit claims; an absurd belief based on your own idiosyncratic interpretation of scripture that has NO reference in reality.

I’ve said it before and I’ll repeat it as many times as necessary – god being god should be able to convince me of his supposed message of salvation; he knows exactly where to find me; he can tell me exactly and concisely everything I need to know – this way I do NOT have to rely on some insane christian asshole zealot who makes unsubstantiated, interpretive, crazy-ass claims of divine magical help.

The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be believed only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith.' -- Robert G. Ingersoll

--S.

September 12, 2010

Regardless, god’s convoluted plan for salvation – which you took years of study to supposedly comprehend – relegates the majority of his earthly children to an eternity of suffering in hell.

This would include people like Anne Frank, Albert Einstein, Gandhi, American Indians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, primitive cultures, and so on.

It would also include the six million Jews of the holocaust – which was their virtual hell on earth.

ALL because they didn’t have your understanding of salvation.

The Christian’s Delusion Of Salvation

God -- who so loved the WORLD -- initiated a plan, of restoration, by sending his son, (himself) to be tortured, crucified and sacrificed, to save humanity. Sinful, fallible, humanity -- who couldn't possibly save themselves -- in the end, must accept and believe in Jesus,(Or LNC’s convoluted; interpretive “trusting” explanation of salvation) so they can be saved and yet, the other 70% of the world -- at this moment in time -- are other religions, the non-religious, or unbelievers, who are not bible-believing Christians. Didn't God consider his other earthly children, when he put his feeble, plan into action? Looks like Jesus' torturous, sacrifice was futile. God's inept, plan is incapable of saving everyone and hinges on the fallible humans, who couldn't save themselves, in the first place. God’s plan for salvation is tragically flawed, wholly inadequate and morbidly negligent. The number of lost souls, throughout history, is monumentally, mind-blowing.

--S.

You may call it a feeble plan, but it is only feeble in your eyes but that plan has saved me and all who have put their trust in Jesus, so it seems quite effective to me.

LNC

But we do NOT know if it really saved you – as of now ALL we have is your unsubstantied word for it.

Not only do we NOT know if this plan actually works – it supposedly only works for the people who believe. And this is where the plan fails miserably. Why didn’t your god take into account the rest of his earthly children who can NOT even entertain your belief because they hold another belief system?

Presumably, you could not be convinced that the ONLY way to paradise is to be a Muslim and believe in Allah. In the very same way, other belief systems or unbelievers can NOT be convinced of your message of salvation. Why didn’t god consider his other earthly children when he put this incompetent plan into action?

Even if god’s plan of salvation worked (which we have no, objective, verifiable evidence that it does), it still is morbidly ineffectual because the majority of his earthly children will not consider it valid because they were brought up with entirely different beliefs. Does……this………compute?

--S.

September 12, 2010

You’re a bold faced liar.

It’s not an “infidel meme”.

It comes straight from the Bible, which you choose to ignore when it conflicts with what you want to believe.

Unbelief is sin and is justification for punishment.

That’s made clear in Mark 16:16, which was already pointed out.

You rejected that of course, claiming that it’s not reliable scripture.

It’s in every Bible I’ve read but you say it doesn’t belong in the Bible.

Your subjective theology is showing again.

There are plenty of Christian sites that declare unbelief in Jesus is sin.

A past true Christian visitor to this forum (Rayskidude) even stated that unbelief is sin.

Verbatim quote from Christian Rayskidude:

In the Book of Hebrews, unbelief - that failure to acknowledge God for Who He is - is painted as a severe sin. Untimately, the failure to believe in God, to believe God, to trust in and follow Him, is exactly what Satan was guilty of. Though Satan & his demons 'believe" in one God - and shudder (James 2:19) - yet they do not humble themselves before God and entrust themselves to God - all as a result of pride.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.

Joh 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:

Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;

Joh 16:10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;

Joh 16:11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

SO Jesus says the main sin is to not believe in Him as Lord & Savior - that He is righteous and that Satan has been judged. SO we either choose Jesus or Satan - those are the alternatives. We choose either humility before God, or our pride causes us to live apart from God.

Stop lying about it being an infidel meme.

It’s a child born of your Christian brothers.

I am not really concerned with what other Christian or non-Christian sites say about why a person is condemned, I am only concerned with what God's word says.

Then stop lying about unbelief in Jesus being an infidel meme.

It comes directly from the Bible and is advocated by many Christians.

You’ve ignored the other verses, such as Rev 21:8, Heb 3:12, and 1 John 2:22, that also show you to be a liar.

If you were really concerned about what God’s word says, you wouldn’t repeatedly lie, committing the sin of bearing false witness in the process.

You’ve even called the true Christian Rayskidude an infidel, which was a superb example of how Christian doctrine is a convoluted mass of subjective feelings that can’t even manage to interpret scripture with consistency.

You can choose to quote passages that weren't in the original text, but that does nothing to refute my argument.

That’s your typical pattern of dismissing anything that gets in the way of your theological wishful thinking.

You’re also lying again, because I cited several verses and only Mark 16:16 was disputed by you as being original.

Mark 16:16, and the other verses, do everything to refute your argument.

You haven’t shown why Mark 16:16 wasn’t removed from the Holy Bible if it wasn’t considered by “scholars” to be original enough to be included as God’s word.

You can even call me a liar, but that doesn't make your case either. You need evidence to back up your claims and that evidence has to be put to the test. In other words, quoting unreliable sources doesn't count. Taking passages from the Bible out of context doesn't do it. Calling names isn't evidence.

So, if parts of the Holy Bible are from unreliable sources, it shouldn’t be called God’s Word by preachers and apologists.

Have you launched a campaign to cleanse the Bible of unreliable scripture?

Where is your evidence that you care enough about what God's word says that you are taking active steps to correct parts of the Bible that are not reliable?

Post some of your letters to Bible publishers and preachers, showing them that they are misinforming their customers by called the Bible God’s Word.

I didn’t take anything out of context, and your perpetual games of dodge-ball don’t validate any of your wishful thinking as being accurate interpretations.

I already provided the scriptural evidence and you haven’t refuted it.

All you’ve done is tap dance.

Now, to the verses that you cited. Yes, the Holy Spirit convicts the world because of sin because the people didn't believe in Jesus, the only hope for them to have the penalty for that sin paid. It isn't not believing in Jesus that is the sin (although it is a sin to reject Jesus), but as Jesus said and was recorded earlier in John (3:36) the wrath remains on the people who do not trust in Jesus.

This is apologetic word salad that attempts to classify unbelief as only a minor sin.

You’re trying to convolute and double talk your way out of the mess, which results in a contradiction.

You state that unbelief is sin while at the same time claim that unbelief isn’t really sin.

The text states that the Holy Spirit convicts people because they do not believe in Jesus.

As Christian Rayskidude stated:

SO Jesus says the main sin is to not believe in Him as Lord & Savior.

Unbelief is the primary sin described in John 16:9.

The Holy Spirit convicts people of their sin (the sins they have already committed and for which they are guilty) because they do not believe in Jesus (the only hope for redemption from that sin).

John 16:9 doesn’t say a thing about other sins being more important than the sin of unbelief.

The text states that unbelief is the primary reason people will be convicted.

Joh 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:

Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;

You would be helped by pulling out a good commentary and studying this. I recommend one by D.A. Carson from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. However, you have given further evidence that this is simply an infidel meme and not a teaching from the Bible.

You would be helped by dropping the "infidel meme" nonsense.

You’ve given further evidence that you’re one of the most dishonest Christian operatives to post on this forum.

I’ll quote Christian Rayskidude again so everyone can see what a liar you are.

SO Jesus says the main sin is to not believe in Him as Lord & Savior.

Believers don’t come much more Christian than Rayskidude and you've classified him as an infidel.

Now, prove that Rayskidude isn’t really a Christian but is actually an infidel.

You see, I’m not going to simply take your word that Rayskidude is an infidel.

And there are also plenty of other Christians that support his commentary.

You’re still a liar until you’ve exposed as deceivers, every Christian that teaches unbelief is a sin meriting damnation.

September 13, 2010

I think I understand your argument, however, I feel that it's nothing but a clever way of spinning it.

This is what I meant earlier in the thread, when I stated that "LNC is being dishonest". For several pages of posting now, and at least a week's worth of time, he has perpetuated this ridiculous display of pseudo intelligence - to what end I can't imagine, except to possibly attempt to appear clever. His behavior has been neither clever or productive. Tactics like these are akin to the filibuster. Those who use them, lose the respect of genuine individuals seeking honest discussion and debate.

Example:

Nearly 18 years ago, my Grandfather died as a result of his refusal to undergo a second round of chemotherapy after having been in remission for the 7 years prior. I suppose I should argue that he did NOT die as a result of that refusal. He, in fact, died because he developed lymphoma. If he had accepted the chemotherapy, he would have lived longer, but his refusal had nothing to do with his death. That was obviously a result of having the cancerous cells in his body. This example mirrors what LNC has been doing here with those of us stupid enough to listen to him - myself included. It doesn't feel good to be trifled with, LNC. Why don't you stop. How can you expect anyone to listen to you when you have something serious to say, after you have shown so little respect for their intelligence in the past?

It is possible that you are a bright individual - capable of carrying out conversations that are on the level - but this assumption has yet to be proven accurate. Based upon your performance here, a straight forward, open-minded exchange of ideas between people with opposing views doesn't seem to be your strength. You should be embarrassed for the way you have attempted to manipulate the topic off course by inserting your own self-serving bunny chase. It's disappointing, seeing that, thus far, you are the only Christian I have met on this forum who has the potential for developing thoughts into words worth reading.

September 13, 2010

Christianity confuses me so much. Almost every Christian I know would say yes, that anyone who does not believe in Jesus will suffer in hell forever, including Anne Frank.

He must be one of those soft, cuddly, liberal Christians.

September 13, 2010

First off, it is UNFAIR of the OP to request a "yes or no" response to the question. As CREATED beings we do not have the perspective that God has; God IS omniscient and He can read minds and we do not know what was going on in Anne Frank's mind/heart. If a created being is to venture into the territory of handing out judgments/condemnation then they will really be condemning their own selves. Hey, that is why the church of the dark ages was WRONG! They had apostasized and consequently persecuted their fellow man.

Secondly, AGAIN I say that people won't burn forever. God, the deity, IS eternal, everlasting, innately immortal. His holiness consumes or will consume SIN. All of God's CREATED beings do live in the fire and all the redeemed from the earth will eventually dwell in His eternal fire but SINNERS will be destroyed, see here ---> Isa.33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

More texts :

Hebrews 12:29 for our "God is a consuming fire."

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Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

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Isaiah 1:28 But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the LORD will perish.

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Isaiah 9:18 Surely wickedness burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke.

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Isaiah 9:19 By the wrath of the LORD Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; no one will spare his brother.

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Isaiah 10:16 Therefore, the Lord, the LORD Almighty, will send a wasting disease upon his sturdy warriors; under his pomp a fire will be kindled like a blazing flame.

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Isaiah 30:27 See, the Name of the LORD comes from afar, with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke; his lips are full of wrath, and his tongue is a consuming fire.

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Isaiah 30:30 The LORD will cause men to hear his majestic voice and will make them see his arm coming down with raging anger and consuming fire, with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail.

People who end up in hell would NOT have put on their "SON screen" , they would have CHOSEN sin and their sins will consume them. God's redeemed would not be consumed because they had FAITH and God counted it for righteousness or He justified them; their FAITH would have then caused them to OBEY His commandments, they will be sanctified by beholding Him and eventually at the 2nd coming they will withstand God's holiness and will not be destroyed by the brightness of His coming see 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The concept of God's fire encompassing but not consuming an object is shown in Ex 3:2 where God appeared in the burning bush to Moses and yet the bush was not consumed

As an aside, I was looking at a show entitled "Descendants Of Abraham" and the hostess was a former Muslim, she's now a Christian and she said that when she was new to the Christian faith she started missing her quaran so she told her parents to mail it to her. She said she would have her quaran on a table and one day a fire broke out in her apartment and everything around her quaran was NOT burned but her quaran was burned to a crisp Ooooo, it was PROVIDENCE! God wanted her to continue in THE TRUTH.

Thirdly, God is not a respecter of persons (see Acts10:34 . http://bible.cc/acts/10-34.htm ).

Christ died for EVERYONE, the role of the Jews was to EVANGELIZE the world. God gave them a job to do and a lot of them failed, till they instigated the murder of God (incarnate) but God has ALWAYS had a faithful remnant and there were a number of Jewish Christians that clung to God and believed in Jesus. AS a nation, the Jews basically rejected Jesus and the commission to preach the everlasting gospel but individually, OF COURSE God will pardon those Jews that were indoctrinated into Jewish culture and ignorantly disregarded Christ and yet were keeping God's commands as best as they knew how. As I said in one of these threads there might very well be a few surprised atheists that will end up in heaven so yes spiritually ignorant Jews can make it ; Zeh.13:6 And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends. <-- see? People will be in heaven who did not know about Jesus' sacrifice but they were inadvertently following the promptings of the Holy Spirit (Jeremiah 31:3; John 6:44)and God would have counted it as righteousness by (their ignorant ) FAITH.

Has anyone ever seen the movie entitled "The gods Must Be Crazy"? Well, a former atheist missionary ( I think he's from Russia or is it Romania?) introduced the co-star of that movie to Jesus and before his (the bushman's) death he was baptized. Now, MAYBE that bushman was living a good life (as do a lot of bushmen; they are reported to be very kind, sharing, non- materialistic people) and MAYBE he would have ended up being saved anyway but the job of a missionary is to give a person the BEST chance of salvation there is. Let's face it, a lot of people worship idols and it can cause them to be deceived by devils for the devils can trick them into disobeying God's commandments; telling about the Creator God helps prevent idolatry. Also, a lot of pagans did and SOME probably do indulge in orgies and the like and it is part of their worship rituals to their "gods" (of fertility?) and eating unclean foods etc. and that certainly is not God's plan for His children.

The Bible says God winks at our ignorance in Acts 17:30, but what determines what sin is, is found in Hebrews10:26 where it says, “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” (KJV) So once we know God’s will, if we persist to rebel, that’s different than if we’re doing something wrong and we don’t know. God also frowns upon persistent WILLFUL ignorance or self- deception, see Hosea 4:6.

September 13, 2010

God IS omniscient and He can read minds.

Actually, you are wrong about that.

His holiness consumes or will consume SIN.

This is an incorrect statement.

People who end up in hell would NOT have put on their "SON screen" , they would have CHOSEN sin and their sins will consume them.

If I use "Son Screen" everywhere except on my ass, and I go to hell, will just my ass get burned? I'm really worried about my face and arms - they are so sensitive, but my ass being burned, I can deal with. See, its been chewed on so many times. Yeah, I have a tough ass, but my face and arms are very sensitive. I will definitely put "Son Screen" on my arms and face.

her quaran was burned to a crisp Ooooo, it was PROVIDENCE! God wanted her to continue in THE TRUTH.

Didn't you know that God actually gets out of bed each morning and burns all the Korans. He really hates this book a lot. They have to make a new Koran for everyone over there, every day. Yes ... this is true - believe it.

Christ died for EVERYONE

NO NO no no .... that's wrong.

OF COURSE God will pardon those Jews that were indoctrinated into Jewish culture and ignorantly disregarded Christ

Will he wait until just before leaving office like Bill Clinton?

People will be in heaven who did not know about Jesus' sacrifice but they were inadvertently following the promptings of the Holy Spirit

Oopps ... ouch! .... uhhhhhh .... NOT!

a lot of pagans did and SOME probably do indulge in orgies and the like and it is part of their worship rituals

I'm outa here - gotta find me that pagan room! Ooops dare it is! Ooops dare it is! Pappy gots to be worshipful now .... yum yum!

So once we know God’s will, if we persist to rebel, that’s different than if we’re doing something wrong and we don’t know. God also frowns upon persistent WILLFUL ignorance or self- deception

None of this statement is accurate. Sorry, no - not true.

September 13, 2010

First off, it is UNFAIR of the OP to request a "yes or no" response to the question. As CREATED beings we do not have the perspective that God has; God IS omniscient and He can read minds and we do not know what was going on in Anne Frank's mind/heart. If a created being is to venture into the territory of handing out judgments/condemnation then they will really be condemning their own selves. Hey, that is why the church of the dark ages was WRONG! They had apostasized and consequently persecuted their fellow man.

Secondly, AGAIN I say that people won't burn forever. God, the deity, IS eternal, everlasting, innately immortal. His holiness consumes or will consume SIN. All of God's CREATED beings do live in the fire and all the redeemed from the earth will eventually dwell in His eternal fire but SINNERS will be destroyed, see here ---> Isa.33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

More texts :

Hebrews 12:29 for our "God is a consuming fire."

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Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

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Isaiah 1:28 But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the LORD will perish.

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Isaiah 9:18 Surely wickedness burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke.

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Isaiah 9:19 By the wrath of the LORD Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; no one will spare his brother.

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Isaiah 10:16 Therefore, the Lord, the LORD Almighty, will send a wasting disease upon his sturdy warriors; under his pomp a fire will be kindled like a blazing flame.

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Isaiah 30:27 See, the Name of the LORD comes from afar, with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke; his lips are full of wrath, and his tongue is a consuming fire.

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Isaiah 30:30 The LORD will cause men to hear his majestic voice and will make them see his arm coming down with raging anger and consuming fire, with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail.

People who end up in hell would NOT have put on their "SON screen" , they would have CHOSEN sin and their sins will consume them. God's redeemed would not be consumed because they had FAITH and God counted it for righteousness or He justified them; their FAITH would have then caused them to OBEY His commandments, they will be sanctified by beholding Him and eventually at the 2nd coming they will withstand God's holiness and will not be destroyed by the brightness of His coming see 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The concept of God's fire encompassing but not consuming an object is shown in Ex 3:2 where God appeared in the burning bush to Moses and yet the bush was not consumed

As an aside, I was looking at a show entitled "Descendants Of Abraham" and the hostess was a former Muslim, she's now a Christian and she said that when she was new to the Christian faith she started missing her quaran so she told her parents to mail it to her. She said she would have her quaran on a table and one day a fire broke out in her apartment and everything around her quaran was NOT burned but her quaran was burned to a crisp Ooooo, it was PROVIDENCE! God wanted her to continue in THE TRUTH.

Thirdly, God is not a respecter of persons (see Acts10:34 . http://bible.cc/acts/10-34.htm ).

Christ died for EVERYONE, the role of the Jews was to EVANGELIZE the world. God gave them a job to do and a lot of them failed, till they instigated the murder of God (incarnate) but God has ALWAYS had a faithful remnant and there were a number of Jewish Christians that clung to God and believed in Jesus. AS a nation, the Jews basically rejected Jesus and the commission to preach the everlasting gospel but individually, OF COURSE God will pardon those Jews that were indoctrinated into Jewish culture and ignorantly disregarded Christ and yet were keeping God's commands as best as they knew how. As I said in one of these threads there might very well be a few surprised atheists that will end up in heaven so yes spiritually ignorant Jews can make it ; Zeh.13:6 And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends. <-- see? People will be in heaven who did not know about Jesus' sacrifice but they were inadvertently following the promptings of the Holy Spirit (Jeremiah 31:3; John 6:44)and God would have counted it as righteousness by (their ignorant ) FAITH.

Has anyone ever seen the movie entitled "The gods Must Be Crazy"? Well, a former atheist missionary ( I think he's from Russia or is it Romania?) introduced the co-star of that movie to Jesus and before his (the bushman's) death he was baptized. Now, MAYBE that bushman was living a good life (as do a lot of bushmen; they are reported to be very kind, sharing, non- materialistic people) and MAYBE he would have ended up being saved anyway but the job of a missionary is to give a person the BEST chance of salvation there is. Let's face it, a lot of people worship idols and it can cause them to be deceived by devils for the devils can trick them into disobeying God's commandments; telling about the Creator God helps prevent idolatry. Also, a lot of pagans did and SOME probably do indulge in orgies and the like and it is part of their worship rituals to their "gods" (of fertility?) and eating unclean foods etc. and that certainly is not God's plan for His children.

The Bible says God winks at our ignorance in Acts 17:30, but what determines what sin is, is found in Hebrews10:26 where it says, “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” (KJV) So once we know God’s will, if we persist to rebel, that’s different than if we’re doing something wrong and we don’t know. God also frowns upon persistent WILLFUL ignorance or self- deception, see Hosea 4:6.

And yet, you -- as a created being – Thumbelina, claim to know god’s perspective as evidenced by your scripture salad above.

Isn’t it curious that deluded christians can extract from scripture to garner the perspective of god but in the same breathe claim we as human beings can’t know god’s perspective.

Furthermore Thumbelina, you do not know god’s will and character. Your just another christian lunatic who makes unsubstantiated bullshit claims about god and his will.

The difference between you and me is I'm firmly grounded in reality, while you're a delusional christian who claims to know the will and character of god without any objective evidence -- coupled with contradictory information you have interpreted from a book that can NOT be proven to be accurate in it's depiction of god!

There is NO objective evidence that the bible accurately depicts a living god. Get it?

You DO NOT know the will or character of god, either.

To say you "know" the will and character of god is hugely disingenuous and delusional.

The absolute arrogance and insanity that is needed to believe in such nonsense -- "my god is good, my god takes an interest in me, listens to me, answers my prayers, loves me, accepts me and will reward me for being a good little christian with the blissful pleasures of heaven" Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.

The only way you think you "know" the will and character of god is by your idiosyncratic and SELECTIVE interpretation of scripture. You pick and choose the attributes of bible-god you like, while ignoring or rationalizing (stretching the context till it breaks) the attributes you can’t reasonably reconcile and the rest of your god-belief is pure fantasy -- where you simply make it up.

Furthermore, the attributes you do like from the bible have no reference in reality. In other words, you have NO objective evidence that which was written about god is true; as opposed to fictional stories made up by the ancient Jews. Does....this....compute?

You constructed (made up) a god character, which only exists in the confines of your morbidly stunted mind and then you tell us -- with delusions of grandeur -- that’s its all true.

Get it through your thick skull and delusional slush-mind of inanity – WE DO NOT BELIEVE YOU.

--S.

September 14, 2010

Get it through your thick skull and delusional slush-mind of inanity – WE DO NOT BELIEVE YOU.

Sconnor, I strikes me that she doesn't have a space left to contemplate this in. I think it is so bizarre and alien to her that she cannot conceive of our "not believing it" - literally.

September 14, 2010

Thirdly, God is not a respecter of persons (see Acts10:34 . ).

Christ died for EVERYONE, the role of the Jews was to EVANGELIZE the world. God gave them a job to do and a lot of them failed, till they instigated the murder of God (incarnate) but God has ALWAYS had a faithful remnant and there were a number of Jewish Christians that clung to God and believed in Jesus. AS a nation, the Jews basically rejected Jesus and the commission to preach the everlasting gospel but individually, OF COURSE God will pardon those Jews that were indoctrinated into Jewish culture and ignorantly disregarded Christ and yet were keeping God's commands as best as they knew how.

You’ve contradicted yourself.

First you say that God does not show favoritism, then you state that he will show favoritism toward some Jews, even though they rejected Jesus.

If God exempts some people from punishment based on special case treatment, then he does show favoritism and bias.

If good intentions and good works qualify some people to be saved, then the Christian teaching that Jesus is the only way to heaven is a lie.

However, there are no qualifiers in John 3:18, Mark 16:16, Rev 21:8, or John 16:9 that exempt certain groups from punishment for the sin of unbelief.

Jesus stated that he is the only way to the Father.

You’ve just denied that teaching and have turned God in a deity that plays favorites.

People will be in heaven who did not know about Jesus' sacrifice but they were inadvertently following the promptings of the Holy Spirit

And this teaching turns Christian claims about Jesus being the only way and the only answer into a shambles.

Now, MAYBE that bushman was living a good life (as do a lot of bushmen; they are reported to be very kind, sharing, non- materialistic people) and MAYBE he would have ended up being saved anyway but the job of a missionary is to give a person the BEST chance of salvation there is.

You’ve pretty much torpedoed the Christian mantra that good works can’t save you.

Preaching to a noble bushman is actually putting him in jeopardy.

It creates a risk that wasn’t there before.

If God saves noble pagans because they “live a good life”, then adding an additional element to his life, that he could easily reject, is not giving him the best chance at all.

Leave him alone and if he’s doing good works, he could just as easily be saved on that merit alone, or so you say.

The Bible says God winks at our ignorance in Acts 17:30, but what determines what sin is, is found in Hebrews10:26 where it says, “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” (KJV) So once we know God’s will, if we persist to rebel, that’s different than if we’re doing something wrong and we don’t know. God also frowns upon persistent WILLFUL ignorance or self- deception, see Hosea 4:6.

Sin is supposed to be missing the mark, or failing to perform in an acceptable way.

According to Christian preachers, God is supposed to be so holy that he cannot tolerate any type of sin.

Sin can be intentional or unintentional.

All humans are supposed to be tainted with the sin of Adam.

You’ve set up a tier system where some sins qualify a person to be sent to hell while other sins are acceptable.

Jesus isn't even needed to absolve a person from these sins because God (according to you) will exempt these sins from his list of damnation criteria.

September 14, 2010

Regardless, god’s convoluted plan for salvation – which you took years of study to supposedly comprehend – relegates the majority of his earthly children to an eternity of suffering in hell.

This would include people like Anne Frank, Albert Einstein, Gandhi, American Indians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, primitive cultures, and so on.

It would also include the six million Jews of the holocaust – which was their virtual hell on earth.

ALL because they didn’t have your understanding of salvation.

The Christian’s Delusion Of Salvation

God -- who so loved the WORLD -- initiated a plan, of restoration, by sending his son, (himself) to be tortured, crucified and sacrificed, to save humanity. Sinful, fallible, humanity -- who couldn't possibly save themselves -- in the end, must accept and believe in Jesus,(Or LNC’s convoluted; interpretive “trusting” explanation of salvation) so they can be saved and yet, the other 70% of the world -- at this moment in time -- are other religions, the non-religious, or unbelievers, who are not bible-believing Christians. Didn't God consider his other earthly children, when he put his feeble, plan into action? Looks like Jesus' torturous, sacrifice was futile. God's inept, plan is incapable of saving everyone and hinges on the fallible humans, who couldn't save themselves, in the first place. God’s plan for salvation is tragically flawed, wholly inadequate and morbidly negligent. The number of lost souls, throughout history, is monumentally, mind-blowing.

--S.

I don't think you have been reading my posts closely enough. Let me say it again for clarity, no one who has lived, is living, or will live in the future is condemned for not having my understanding of salvation. No one is saved by having my understanding of salvation. People are condemned by our sinful and rebellious behavior against a good and loving God. This same God who sent his own son to die a wicked death at the hands of these rebellious sinners. You may call it a feeble plan, but it is only feeble in your eyes but that plan has saved me and all who have put their trust in Jesus, so it seems quite effective to me. It is effective for all who believe and yet, nothing will save those who choose to reject Jesus. So, in that case, there could be no plan effective enough to save a person like that. It is like throwing a life preserver to a drowning person only to have them push it away. The life preserver was sufficient to save the person; however, their rejection of the preserver means that the plan was ineffective. But then, it seems that it wasn't the fault of the plan, but of the person who rejected the plan.

LNC

LNC's reply to Sconnors criticism's of God's plan of salvation seem to be adequately covered in his, 'Trust-in-Jesus-the-Life-Preserver' response, shown above. However, I contend that there is a gaping hole in LNC's reply, which I will attempt to describe here.

LNC correctly points out that it is not his understanding that saves or condemns a person, it is their own sinful and rebellious behavior against a good and loving God. He states that the plan is not feeble, but effective for all who put their trust in Jesus. This agrees with the thrust of his argument thru-out this thread, that it is trust and belief in Jesus that saves. This combination is fully effective, yet will always be inadequate when it comes to those who reject God's Son. Therefore, God's plan of salvation is not feeble or inept, as Sconnor declares. It is fit for purpose, just as God intended it to be. The stubborn refusal of some does not render the plan ineffective. That is their choice, not God's fault. They have the God-given ability to freely reject or accept God's plan and if they freely take the 'rejection' option, who's responsibility is it for that decision? God's or theirs? LNC then uses the life preserver scenario to illustrate the point. If a sure and certain way of saving a drowning person is offered to them and they reject it, what other option is there? Override the free choice and save them against their will? Not if you respect their choice. So there we have it. All neat and tidy.

Or is it?

Rightly or wrongly, I perceive that LNC's argument hinges on the linked qualities of trust and belief and Jesus. If both of these things are not present, salvation is not possible. Belief on it's own is not sufficient. Belief must be accompanied by trust.

My understanding of his position may be flawed, but as far as I comprehend it, he is presenting this in strictly black and white terms. No fudging, no grey areas, no equivocation, no nothing. Either you believe and trust Jesus to save you or you don't. It's either heaven or hell. There is not third option, no get-out-of-jail-free card, no other way of seeing God's plan but in these terms. Terms which LNC has clearly explained to us.

So, what about my dead brother and sister?

Paul was almost 21 when he dropped dead from an undetected heart condition. According to LNC, God's plan was effective for him, but since he chose to reject it, on Judgement Day his only destination will be hell. No blame can laid at God's door for this outcome. The choice was his and his alone. God will respect this decision. He had the opportunity to believe in and trust Jesus to take God's righteous wrath on his behalf, but he refused to do so. Btw, Paul was a confirmed atheist to his dying breath. In his case, LNC's trust-and-belief argument would apply, because he had the opportunity and ability to trust and believe that Jesus could save him.

But, what about my unnamed sister?

She would have been the first born to my parents but my Mom miscarried in her third month. The little girl died before she could satisfy any of the terms and conditions that applied to my brother. Her eyes never opened and saw the light of day, so she could never have learned to read the scriptures and understand what it is to believe in and trust Jesus. Her ears never heard any spoken words, let alone the key words about belief and trust in Jesus, words which might have lead her to salvation. Her brain was incomplete and in no state for her to understand the concepts of self, of other persons, of moral responsibility, of sin, of rebellion, of what heaven or hell are or of what trust and belief in Jesus is and means. She had neither the hope or chance of believing in and trusting Jesus. If belief and trust in Jesus are the sole hope of sinful humans, then what hope did she ever have? The consistent answer (imho) must be... none.

So, perhaps Sconnor is right. Perhaps God's fully effective plan of salvation is tragically flawed, wholly inadequate and morbidly negligent. Not in the context of Anne Frank or my brother, but certainly in terms of those billions like my sister, who lived and died without the hope of satisfying the parameters of LNC's argument. If belief and trust in Jesus are the sole conditions by which anyone avoids the fires of hell, surely the opportunity to know and comprehend these concepts is contingent to the whole argument? I can see nothing else defined, explained, mentioned or even hinted at by LNC in this thread, so I look forward to his response regarding the lost souls God's 'effective' plan of salvation doesn't seem to reach.

Thanks,

BAA.

September 14, 2010

So, what about my dead brother and sister?

Paul was almost 21 when he dropped dead from an undetected heart condition. According to LNC, God's plan was effective for him, but since he chose to reject it, on Judgement Day his only destination will be hell. No blame can laid at God's door for this outcome. The choice was his and his alone. God will respect this decision. He had the opportunity to believe in and trust Jesus to take God's righteous wrath on his behalf, but he refused to do so. Btw, Paul was a confirmed atheist to his dying breath. In his case, LNC's trust-and-belief argument would apply, because he had the opportunity and ability to trust and believe that Jesus could save him.

But, what about my unnamed sister?

She would have been the first born to my parents but my Mom miscarried in her third month. The little girl died before she could satisfy any of the terms and conditions that applied to my brother. Her eyes never opened and saw the light of day, so she could never have learned to read the scriptures and understand what it is to believe in and trust Jesus. Her ears never heard any spoken words, let alone the key words about belief and trust in Jesus, words which might have lead her to salvation. Her brain was incomplete and in no state for her to understand the concepts of self, of other persons, of moral responsibility, of sin, of rebellion, of what heaven or hell are or of what trust and belief in Jesus is and means. She had neither the hope or chance of believing in and trusting Jesus. If belief and trust in Jesus are the sole hope of sinful humans, then what hope did she ever have? The consistent answer (imho) must be... none.

So, perhaps Sconnor is right. Perhaps God's fully effective plan of salvation is tragically flawed, wholly inadequate and morbidly negligent. Not in the context of Anne Frank or my brother, but certainly in terms of those billions like my sister, who lived and died without the hope of satisfying the parameters of LNC's argument. If belief and trust in Jesus are the sole conditions by which anyone avoids the fires of hell, surely the opportunity to know and comprehend these concepts is contingent to the whole argument? I can see nothing else defined, explained, mentioned or even hinted at by LNC in this thread, so I look forward to his response regarding the lost souls God's 'effective' plan of salvation doesn't seem to reach.

Thanks,

BAA.

Excellent analysis (and sorry to hear of your family's loss).

Once an exception is made for your unborn sister who never had an effective choice, then the whole sceme falls apart because then there is at least one way to enter heaven other than belief and trust in Jesus. And if there is this exception, then we must wonder whether there are others, too. For example, isn't the profoundly mentally incompetent person the functional equivalent to your unborn sister? How about the Amazonian native who doesn't even know there is any civilization outside of his or her rainforest? And so we end up still not knowing exactly what it takes to get to heaven and avoid hell which illustrates the inherent flaw in LNC's biblical view.

September 14, 2010

Excellent analysis (and sorry to hear of your family's loss).

Once an exception is made for your unborn sister who never had an effective choice, then the whole sceme falls apart because then there is at least one way to enter heaven other than belief and trust in Jesus. And if there is this exception, then we must wonder whether there are others, too. For example, isn't the profoundly mentally incompetent person the functional equivalent to your unborn sister? How about the Amazonian native who doesn't even know there is any civilization outside of his or her rainforest? And so we end up still not knowing exactly what it takes to get to heaven and avoid hell which illustrates the inherent flaw in LNC's biblical view.

Thanks O.F. and thanks too for the kind words.

You say that the whole scheme falls apart. Ummm... perhaps not. Because LNC wrote this...

"Because we try to understand god truly in no way implies that we will know him exhaustively. So, if I know literal facts about God, I haven't diminished him, I have simply understood certain aspects of him that he has revealed." Sept 9, 01.08 p.m.

He could claim that he knows some literal facts about God, but not all of them. That which is unknown might well include what happens to the likes of my sister. But, God has revealed enough in his word for our salvation. That is all God needs to reveal, nothing more. As such, his plan of salvation is still fully effective and the fate of these 'lost souls' is fruitless speculation which does not undermine what the Bible says. Therefore LNC's position remains secure. I may have thrown the spotlight on a hole in his argument, but it's not a critically important hole. If it really is there, then I'm curious to hear what he's got to say about it. Most likely, he'll have this base covered too. So be it. (Shrugs.)

So Yes, there may well be more than one way to enter heaven, but (imho) LNC can still say that for those of us who do have the ability and opportunity there is only one way - belief and trust in Jesus. If this divides all flesh into two camps (the able and the unable), LNC could (imho) quite legitimately state that what has been provided for the unable does not violate what has been provided for the able. We, the able, do know exactly what it takes to get to heaven and avoid hell. LNC told us directly, here...

"You make a fatal assumption in your argument. God didn't make people who were inherently imperfect. The Bible says that when God created man he said, "It is very good." God created man good, it was the fall that marred that goodness. God doesn't condemn anyone to hell for being imperfect, it is because we rebel against him. He also doesn't make the gospel obscure or hard to find. In fact, I have given the gospel message on this site many times. The message is that we were created in God's image to have relationship with him. Man was created with free will and given work to do, with one simple rule. Don't eat from one tree among potentially thousands of trees. Man ate from that tree and died spiritually, breaking relationship with God. God had mercy on man and reached out to him many times in the OT, only to have nearly every prophet killed. God then sent his own son to earth, only to have his own son killed by his creation; however, in that death, God secured the payment for man's sins that would fulfill the law. Man, by trusting in Jesus, can have that payment apply to his life. If man rejects that free offer and gift, then God can do no more to save the person from his just condemnation. Every person, except Jesus, has sinned and rebelled against God and only by trusting in Jesus can man have his sins paid for and dealt with. If man rejects that offer, he is condemning himself to pay his own penalty.

There, now you cannot claim that you didn't know the gospel. I made it very plain and clear. Now you have the choice as to whether you will receive that gift and trust in Jesus or reject that gift and suffer the penalty that you have already earned and are due. In essence, Jesus lives within every believer, so Jesus has come to you and to everyone who reads this message and said, "trust in me for forgiveness of sins, lest you suffer the punishment that you rightly deserve." What will you answer?"

Sept 9, 09.43 p.m.

Now (in LNC's theology) we are without excuse and must face God's righteous wrath accordingly. This wrath remains upon us and the only way to deflect it is to believe in and trust Jesus and his completed work upon the cross. God's wrath also remains upon the unable 'lost souls', but if there is a way that they are spared his wrath, then I don't know what it is. That is why I've posed LNC the question - to find out his position on this matter. If LNC does remain consistent to the line he's taken in this thread, he should insist that the conscious and deliberate decision to believe in and trust Jesus is the only way anyone is spared God's wrath. Then perhaps there is a hole in his argument concerning the souls of the 'lost'. Perhaps.

So for now O.F., we're maintaining a holding pattern until LNC gets back to us on this.

Thanks again,

BAA.

September 14, 2010

Another thought, anyone consider God to be a really stubborn asshole for holding such a grudge for eternity? Adam and Eve screwed up, and he's still pissed. Get over it already, God.

September 14, 2010

First off, it is UNFAIR of the OP to request a "yes or no" response to the question. As CREATED beings we do not have the perspective that God has;

How DARE we question, how utterly utterly evil, thoughtless and self centered of us :

God IS omniscient and He can read minds and we do not know what was going on in Anne Frank's mind/heart.

So if he is omniscient, he would have known everything beforehand, even the fact that people would be asking this question, so what difference does it make...all is going according to a predetermined plan anyway

Secondly, AGAIN I say that people won't burn forever.

Wow, that's a relief I couldn't think of a worse nightmare than being forced to live forever..

People who end up in hell would NOT have put on their "SON screen" , they would have CHOSEN sin and their sins will consume them.

As you already claimed, God is omniscient so he would have KNOWN this beforehand...he imputed a sinful nature to humanity by default, then blamed them for it...BTW your so called SON screen is effective for those chosen beforehand

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

BTW these verses indicated you are chosen or not...long BEFORE Adam and Eve were ever in the garden...we are all puppets on a string playing out our predetermined role which was forced on us...our crime - the misfortune of being born

Thirdly, God is not a respecter of persons

Oh..but he is, Esau was hated before he was even born

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

God also frowns upon persistent WILLFUL ignorance or self- deception, see Hosea 4:6.

Which he would have known about beforehand, so what's the problem, and what difference does it make what one believes or asks

September 15, 2010

Once an exception is made for your unborn sister who never had an effective choice, then the whole sceme falls apart because then there is at least one way to enter heaven other than belief and trust in Jesus. And if there is this exception, then we must wonder whether there are others, too. For example, isn't the profoundly mentally incompetent person the functional equivalent to your unborn sister? How about the Amazonian native who doesn't even know there is any civilization outside of his or her rainforest? And so we end up still not knowing exactly what it takes to get to heaven and avoid hell which illustrates the inherent flaw in LNC's biblical view.

Yikes! Hey O.F., I didn't address your question, did I? Sorry 'bout that!

You mentioned two conditions, mental incapacity and ignorance of the gospel, both which appear to be functionally similar to my unborn sister. Both seem to render the people concerned unable to make the conscious choice to believe in and trust Jesus. The very choice that LNC has asserted is necessary to avoid God's wrath and escape the fires of hell. Well, I just don't know about the first condition. That seems to me to be a subject fraught with unknowns and imponderables. Who can say what a profoundly mentally incompetent person can understand? Not me, that's for sure.

However, I can say something about the second condition, those who've never heard of Jesus. As we know, this will include most of the Earth's population, across most of recorded history. Billions and billions, who never had the opportunity to know about, believe in and trust Jesus.

Romans 1: 18 - 2:16 covers the ground, even tho' I reckon that Paul is speaking about the idolatry and polytheism of the Roman-controlled world he was familiar with. As I understand it, there's no particular reason why Paul's accusations should apply just to the time and place he lived in. Doesn't God's word apply to all places and all times? So then, anything that is not of God is wrong, sinful and deserving of wrath and punishment, regardless of where it originates from and when it occurs. This is because, "whoever is not for us, is against us." Therefore, ALL other faiths, pantheons of gods, philosophies, beliefs, traditions and religions are evil, no matter how worthy they seem or how much emphasis they put on 'goodness'.

A worked example of this is found in Acts 16 : 16 -18. Here, if we take a look at the passage in the original Koine, we see that the slave girl had the spirit of a Python. http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/act16.pdf The operative words are, 'PNEUMA PUTHONOS', which can be translated as, 'having a spirit of divination/clairvoyance' but which, more properly refers to the title given to the Delphic oracle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pythia The female oracles of Delphi were referred to as the Pythia and were famed thru-out the ancient world for their prophetic abilities. They were dedicated to the god Apollo and treated with great respect and reverence. The holiness and sacred purity of Delphi, of Apollo and of the Pythia were however, shown to be deceitful manifestations of demonic activity by Paul when he commanded the unclean spirit to leave the girl. At a stroke, the truth was revealed. Put simply, it reads like this... Anything that is not of God is from Satan. Luke 10: 17 - 19 confirms this and Paul was simply exercising the same authority that Jesus had given to the seventy-two.

Now O.F., when we combine what the passages from Romans and Acts tell us, we can come to the following conclusions...

1. The Amazonian native you mentioned will be without excuse on judgement day because God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been made plain (by God) to him. Romans 1:18 -20.

2. The Amazonian will have known God, but having failed to glorify him and give thanks to him, his thinking will have become futile and his heart darkened. Romans 1:21.

3. Romans 2:14 & 15 says that even the Gentiles can have the requirements of God's Law written on their hearts, so, assuming this applies to the Amazonian too, he cannot claim not to have known what God wants.

4. Anything that the Amazonian believes that is not of God, will be of Satan and his minions, no matter how noble, pure and good it might seem to be.

5. Therefore, since the Amazonian could plainly see God's qualities, since he had the knowledge of God written on his heart and since he still turned to Satan, he will share in Satan's fate - eternal hellfire.

The flip side of all of this O.F., is that it's full of holes and doesn't agree with what I understand LNC's p.o.v. to be. Here's another list for you!

1. The above is an example of circular argumentation. Using the Bible to back up something else in the Bible is not valid, because there's no way of independently checking the veracity of the claims.

2. The God Paul refers to in the Romans passage is God the Father, not Jesus Christ, the Son of God. So, taking Paul's testimony as authoritative, we must conclude that all Gentiles will know about the the Father, but not the Son.

3. LNC asserts that it is only belief in and trust in the Son's sacrifice on the cross that can deflect the Father's wrath from us.

4. Therefore, if all Gentiles know only the Father and not the Son, there's no logical way in which this knowledge can spare them from God the Father's wrath.

5. "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." But that doesn't work the other way round, does it? Therefore, all the Gentiles who never heard about Jesus before they died are doomed to eternal hellfire.

6. Knowledge of the Father alone, does not deliver salvation. LNC is quite clear that only belief in and trust in Jesus is sufficient for salvation.

7. If knowledge of the Father could deliver salvation, why then is there the need to spread the good news of Jesus thru-out the world via missionary outreach?

So then O.F., question answered?

It looks to me as if LNC's god condemns most of the human race to hell, giving them no opportunity and/or no ability to believe in and trust in the saving work of Jesus.

Thanks,

BAA.

September 16, 2010

First off, it is UNFAIR of the OP to request a "yes or no" response to the question. As CREATED beings we do not have the perspective that God has; God IS omniscient and He can read minds and we do not know what was going on in Anne Frank's mind/heart. If a created being is to venture into the territory of handing out judgments/condemnation then they will really be condemning their own selves. Hey, that is why the church of the dark ages was WRONG! They had apostasized and consequently persecuted their fellow man.

You think it's unfair to request a 'yes or no' answer to something so fundamental to your belief system? You think that we, as mere human beings, don't deserve to know whether someone goes to hell or heaven? What do you base that on, other than your wishy washy idea that we can't know stuff because we're not god? Tell me, how do you know YOU are saved? If that is something we are not to question or think about, how do you know you're saved? I suppose it's not your place to know, you'll just find out when you die, and see if god liked you enough to keep you out of hell.

Secondly, AGAIN I say that people won't burn forever. God, the deity, IS eternal, everlasting, innately immortal. His holiness consumes or will consume SIN. All of God's CREATED beings do live in the fire and all the redeemed from the earth will eventually dwell in His eternal fire but SINNERS will be destroyed, see here ---> Isa.33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Why are you quoting an Old Testament text to support your claim that we will be destroyed? There is no mention of hell in the old testament. It is irrelevant. Since in the OT there is no hell, why would this burning be referring to hell? It just refers to a fire. That text, Isaiah, predates the idea of there being a hell. You should really learn a little bit about your precious bible before you come barging in here making a fool of yourself.

More texts :

Hebrews 12:29 for our "God is a consuming fire."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 1:28 But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the LORD will perish.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 9:18 Surely wickedness burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 9:19 By the wrath of the LORD Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; no one will spare his brother.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 10:16 Therefore, the Lord, the LORD Almighty, will send a wasting disease upon his sturdy warriors; under his pomp a fire will be kindled like a blazing flame.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 30:27 See, the Name of the LORD comes from afar, with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke; his lips are full of wrath, and his tongue is a consuming fire.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 30:30 The LORD will cause men to hear his majestic voice and will make them see his arm coming down with raging anger and consuming fire, with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail.

Ooh, biblevomit. That will convince me that you're right! *Epically facemelting sarcasm*

So according to this garbage, you're telling me that apparently 'god' is this 'fire', not hell? Interesting. So you're saying there is no hell, then? You think everyone just goes to heaven and kisses god's big arse for eternity? What are you trying to acheive by posting verses from a book none of us take seriously? So is god hell, or is hell a place? You're the expert.

People who end up in hell would NOT have put on their "SON screen" , they would have CHOSEN sin and their sins will consume them. God's redeemed would not be consumed because they had FAITH and God counted it for righteousness or He justified them; their FAITH would have then caused them to OBEY His commandments, they will be sanctified by beholding Him and eventually at the 2nd coming they will withstand God's holiness and will not be destroyed by the brightness of His coming see 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The concept of God's fire encompassing but not consuming an object is shown in Ex 3:2 where God appeared in the burning bush to Moses and yet the bush was not consumed

You know, it profoundly offends me when christians make such flippant jokes, like 'son screen' when talking about human beings burning for eternity. Only a true sicko with no empathy for their fellow human beings would write something like that. You just love this, don't you? The idea of other people burning for eternity gets you off. You love the thought of others suffering. It makes you feel special.

As an aside, I was looking at a show entitled "Descendants Of Abraham" and the hostess was a former Muslim, she's now a Christian and she said that when she was new to the Christian faith she started missing her quaran so she told her parents to mail it to her. She said she would have her quaran on a table and one day a fire broke out in her apartment and everything around her quaran was NOT burned but her quaran was burned to a crisp Ooooo, it was PROVIDENCE! God wanted her to continue in THE TRUTH.

Wow, a third hand anecdote! That'll make me believe you and get down on my knees and pray to baby jesus! *Epic Sarcasm dial turned to 11*

You know, I have had a similar experience. My Nanna accidentally left a candle burning in her kitchen. When she came back, the entire table cloth was burned to the edge of the table, but the ends hanging over the edge of the table were completely unharmed. Nothing on the table was damaged except for the tablecloth, and the fruit bowl on the table was completely undamaged. Praise the Fruit Bowl! Praise it's precious, fruit holding goodness! Obviously it wants me to continue to eat fruit out of it and have regular, soft, fibre filled bowel movements!

Your anecdote is meaningless. It's a random event, not providence. I'm not going to bow down to your god, and I'm not going to bow down and start worshipping the fucking fruit bowl, for the same reason. There is no supernatural involvement. It is just something that happens sometimes that is unusual, and I don't need to make up a silly story about how some magical god is looking out for me to explain a random event. I am just not that arrogant and self centred that I need to make this shit up. Think about that next time you start explaining a random event in your life with "ooh, god is doing x for me because I'm so fucking special". Trust me, you're not.

Thirdly, God is not a respecter of persons (see Acts10:34 . http://bible.cc/acts/10-34.htm ).

Christ died for EVERYONE, the role of the Jews was to EVANGELIZE the world. God gave them a job to do and a lot of them failed, till they instigated the murder of God (incarnate) but God has ALWAYS had a faithful remnant and there were a number of Jewish Christians that clung to God and believed in Jesus. AS a nation, the Jews basically rejected Jesus and the commission to preach the everlasting gospel but individually, OF COURSE God will pardon those Jews that were indoctrinated into Jewish culture and ignorantly disregarded Christ and yet were keeping God's commands as best as they knew how. As I said in one of these threads there might very well be a few surprised atheists that will end up in heaven so yes spiritually ignorant Jews can make it ; Zeh.13:6 And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends. <-- see? People will be in heaven who did not know about Jesus' sacrifice but they were inadvertently following the promptings of the Holy Spirit (Jeremiah 31:3; John 6:44)and God would have counted it as righteousness by (their ignorant ) FAITH.

So god doesn't respect people? Then that means he doesn't love people. You can't have love without respect. That isn't love. So either your interpretation of this is wrong, your your god is a liar.

So this is your arse covering? That god won't destroy the jews who were actually christians?

And hang on a minute, didn't you say at the start of your post that "First off, it is UNFAIR of the OP to request a "yes or no" response to the question. As CREATED beings we do not have the perspective that God has; God IS omniscient and He can read minds and we do not know what was going on in Anne Frank's mind/heart. If a created being is to venture into the territory of handing out judgments/condemnation then they will really be condemning"

And what was that you just wrote? That you think atheists and spiritually ignorant jews will be in heaven? So we aren't allowed to deliberate on whether Anne Frank would go to hell, but you're allowed to tell us who will go to hell? You are equal with god now? Well that's convenient. Do you look like a fruitbowl? How can someone have faith in something when they don't know what it is? If someone is ignorant of christianity and the holy spirit, how can they have faith in it and go to heaven?

This is a classic example of a christian rewriting their own religion to try and bypass the ugly, embarrassing bits. You just THINK these people will go to heaven because you're too chickenshit scared to face the fact that your bible says they will burn. That embarrasses you, because you can see how inherently unjust it is, but you don't want to admit it because that would mean admitting that god is unjust. You're dishonest. You can keep trying to fool yourself, but you won't fool us. You're totally transparent.

Has anyone ever seen the movie entitled "The gods Must Be Crazy"? Well, a former atheist missionary ( I think he's from Russia or is it Romania?) introduced the co-star of that movie to Jesus and before his (the bushman's) death he was baptized. Now, MAYBE that bushman was living a good life (as do a lot of bushmen; they are reported to be very kind, sharing, non- materialistic people) and MAYBE he would have ended up being saved anyway but the job of a missionary is to give a person the BEST chance of salvation there is. Let's face it, a lot of people worship idols and it can cause them to be deceived by devils for the devils can trick them into disobeying God's commandments; telling about the Creator God helps prevent idolatry. Also, a lot of pagans did and SOME probably do indulge in orgies and the like and it is part of their worship rituals to their "gods" (of fertility?) and eating unclean foods etc. and that certainly is not God's plan for His children.

The Bible says God winks at our ignorance in Acts 17:30, but what determines what sin is, is found in Hebrews10:26 where it says, “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” (KJV) So once we know God’s will, if we persist to rebel, that’s different than if we’re doing something wrong and we don’t know. God also frowns upon persistent WILLFUL ignorance or self- deception, see Hosea 4:6.

So your basic assertion is that people will be saved by good works, because of the holy spirit. All I have to do is live a good life (like I am currently doing) and I get to go to heaven? But then you have to add your caveat at the end that says that people who are former christians (like us) will burn for eternity. Your god is so wonderful he needs to threaten people with BURNING IN HELL so that they worship him. I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy. Your god is an invented, bronze aged monster. All your fancy explanations for why he's not are so convoluted and fanciful they are obviously lies invented to support something that is a lie at it's core.

The truth needs no fancy explanation. The truth stands on it's own. The very fact that you have to come here and write paragraphs to explain the 'truth' demonstrates that it is not the truth at all.

You're an idiot, Thumbelina. You think telling us we'll all burn in hell will make us bow down and worship jesus? We used to be christians. We know the bullshit you're trying to spin. We saw through it, and realised it was bullshit. It is not new to us. Threatening us with hell is the tactic of a desperate child.

If you had anything real to offer us, you wouldn't have to resort to threats of hell.

September 16, 2010

First off, it is UNFAIR of the OP to request a "yes or no" response to the question. As CREATED beings we do not have the perspective that God has; God IS omniscient and He can read minds and we do not know what was going on in Anne Frank's mind/heart. If a created being is to venture into the territory of handing out judgments/condemnation then they will really be condemning their own selves. Hey, that is why the church of the dark ages was WRONG! They had apostasized and consequently persecuted their fellow man.

You think it's unfair to request a 'yes or no' answer to something so fundamental to your belief system? You think that we, as mere human beings, don't deserve to know whether someone goes to hell or heaven? What do you base that on, other than your wishy washy idea that we can't know stuff because we're not god? Tell me, how do you know YOU are saved? If that is something we are not to question or think about, how do you know you're saved? I suppose it's not your place to know, you'll just find out when you die, and see if god liked you enough to keep you out of hell.

Secondly, AGAIN I say that people won't burn forever. God, the deity, IS eternal, everlasting, innately immortal. His holiness consumes or will consume SIN. All of God's CREATED beings do live in the fire and all the redeemed from the earth will eventually dwell in His eternal fire but SINNERS will be destroyed, see here ---> Isa.33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Why are you quoting an Old Testament text to support your claim that we will be destroyed? There is no mention of hell in the old testament. It is irrelevant. Since in the OT there is no hell, why would this burning be referring to hell? It just refers to a fire. That text, Isaiah, predates the idea of there being a hell. You should really learn a little bit about your precious bible before you come barging in here making a fool of yourself.

More texts :

Hebrews 12:29 for our "God is a consuming fire."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 1:28 But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the LORD will perish.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 9:18 Surely wickedness burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 9:19 By the wrath of the LORD Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; no one will spare his brother.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 10:16 Therefore, the Lord, the LORD Almighty, will send a wasting disease upon his sturdy warriors; under his pomp a fire will be kindled like a blazing flame.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 30:27 See, the Name of the LORD comes from afar, with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke; his lips are full of wrath, and his tongue is a consuming fire.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 30:30 The LORD will cause men to hear his majestic voice and will make them see his arm coming down with raging anger and consuming fire, with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail.

Ooh, biblevomit. That will convince me that you're right! *Epically facemelting sarcasm*

So according to this garbage, you're telling me that apparently 'god' is this 'fire', not hell? Interesting. So you're saying there is no hell, then? You think everyone just goes to heaven and kisses god's big arse for eternity? What are you trying to acheive by posting verses from a book none of us take seriously? So is god hell, or is hell a place? You're the expert.

People who end up in hell would NOT have put on their "SON screen" , they would have CHOSEN sin and their sins will consume them. God's redeemed would not be consumed because they had FAITH and God counted it for righteousness or He justified them; their FAITH would have then caused them to OBEY His commandments, they will be sanctified by beholding Him and eventually at the 2nd coming they will withstand God's holiness and will not be destroyed by the brightness of His coming see 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The concept of God's fire encompassing but not consuming an object is shown in Ex 3:2 where God appeared in the burning bush to Moses and yet the bush was not consumed

You know, it profoundly offends me when christians make such flippant jokes, like 'son screen' when talking about human beings burning for eternity. Only a true sicko with no empathy for their fellow human beings would write something like that. You just love this, don't you? The idea of other people burning for eternity gets you off. You love the thought of others suffering. It makes you feel special.

As an aside, I was looking at a show entitled "Descendants Of Abraham" and the hostess was a former Muslim, she's now a Christian and she said that when she was new to the Christian faith she started missing her quaran so she told her parents to mail it to her. She said she would have her quaran on a table and one day a fire broke out in her apartment and everything around her quaran was NOT burned but her quaran was burned to a crisp Ooooo, it was PROVIDENCE! God wanted her to continue in THE TRUTH.

Wow, a third hand anecdote! That'll make me believe you and get down on my knees and pray to baby jesus! *Epic Sarcasm dial turned to 11*

You know, I have had a similar experience. My Nanna accidentally left a candle burning in her kitchen. When she came back, the entire table cloth was burned to the edge of the table, but the ends hanging over the edge of the table were completely unharmed. Nothing on the table was damaged except for the tablecloth, and the fruit bowl on the table was completely undamaged. Praise the Fruit Bowl! Praise it's precious, fruit holding goodness! Obviously it wants me to continue to eat fruit out of it and have regular, soft, fibre filled bowel movements!

Your anecdote is meaningless. It's a random event, not providence. I'm not going to bow down to your god, and I'm not going to bow down and start worshipping the fucking fruit bowl, for the same reason. There is no supernatural involvement. It is just something that happens sometimes that is unusual, and I don't need to make up a silly story about how some magical god is looking out for me to explain a random event. I am just not that arrogant and self centred that I need to make this shit up. Think about that next time you start explaining a random event in your life with "ooh, god is doing x for me because I'm so fucking special". Trust me, you're not.

Thirdly, God is not a respecter of persons (see Acts10:34 . http://bible.cc/acts/10-34.htm ).

Christ died for EVERYONE, the role of the Jews was to EVANGELIZE the world. God gave them a job to do and a lot of them failed, till they instigated the murder of God (incarnate) but God has ALWAYS had a faithful remnant and there were a number of Jewish Christians that clung to God and believed in Jesus. AS a nation, the Jews basically rejected Jesus and the commission to preach the everlasting gospel but individually, OF COURSE God will pardon those Jews that were indoctrinated into Jewish culture and ignorantly disregarded Christ and yet were keeping God's commands as best as they knew how. As I said in one of these threads there might very well be a few surprised atheists that will end up in heaven so yes spiritually ignorant Jews can make it ; Zeh.13:6 And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends. <-- see? People will be in heaven who did not know about Jesus' sacrifice but they were inadvertently following the promptings of the Holy Spirit (Jeremiah 31:3; John 6:44)and God would have counted it as righteousness by (their ignorant ) FAITH.

So god doesn't respect people? Then that means he doesn't love people. You can't have love without respect. That isn't love. So either your interpretation of this is wrong, your your god is a liar.

So this is your arse covering? That god won't destroy the jews who were actually christians?

And hang on a minute, didn't you say at the start of your post that "First off, it is UNFAIR of the OP to request a "yes or no" response to the question. As CREATED beings we do not have the perspective that God has; God IS omniscient and He can read minds and we do not know what was going on in Anne Frank's mind/heart. If a created being is to venture into the territory of handing out judgments/condemnation then they will really be condemning"

And what was that you just wrote? That you think atheists and spiritually ignorant jews will be in heaven? So we aren't allowed to deliberate on whether Anne Frank would go to hell, but you're allowed to tell us who will go to hell? You are equal with god now? Well that's convenient. Do you look like a fruitbowl? How can someone have faith in something when they don't know what it is? If someone is ignorant of christianity and the holy spirit, how can they have faith in it and go to heaven?

This is a classic example of a christian rewriting their own religion to try and bypass the ugly, embarrassing bits. You just THINK these people will go to heaven because you're too chickenshit scared to face the fact that your bible says they will burn. That embarrasses you, because you can see how inherently unjust it is, but you don't want to admit it because that would mean admitting that god is unjust. You're dishonest. You can keep trying to fool yourself, but you won't fool us. You're totally transparent.

Has anyone ever seen the movie entitled "The gods Must Be Crazy"? Well, a former atheist missionary ( I think he's from Russia or is it Romania?) introduced the co-star of that movie to Jesus and before his (the bushman's) death he was baptized. Now, MAYBE that bushman was living a good life (as do a lot of bushmen; they are reported to be very kind, sharing, non- materialistic people) and MAYBE he would have ended up being saved anyway but the job of a missionary is to give a person the BEST chance of salvation there is. Let's face it, a lot of people worship idols and it can cause them to be deceived by devils for the devils can trick them into disobeying God's commandments; telling about the Creator God helps prevent idolatry. Also, a lot of pagans did and SOME probably do indulge in orgies and the like and it is part of their worship rituals to their "gods" (of fertility?) and eating unclean foods etc. and that certainly is not God's plan for His children.

The Bible says God winks at our ignorance in Acts 17:30, but what determines what sin is, is found in Hebrews10:26 where it says, “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” (KJV) So once we know God’s will, if we persist to rebel, that’s different than if we’re doing something wrong and we don’t know. God also frowns upon persistent WILLFUL ignorance or self- deception, see Hosea 4:6.

So your basic assertion is that people will be saved by good works, because of the holy spirit. All I have to do is live a good life (like I am currently doing) and I get to go to heaven? But then you have to add your caveat at the end that says that people who are former christians (like us) will burn for eternity. Your god is so wonderful he needs to threaten people with BURNING IN HELL so that they worship him. I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy. Your god is an invented, bronze aged monster. All your fancy explanations for why he's not are so convoluted and fanciful they are obviously lies invented to support something that is a lie at it's core.

The truth needs no fancy explanation. The truth stands on it's own. The very fact that you have to come here and write paragraphs to explain the 'truth' demonstrates that it is not the truth at all.

You're an idiot, Thumbelina. You think telling us we'll all burn in hell will make us bow down and worship jesus? We used to be christians. We know the bullshit you're trying to spin. We saw through it, and realised it was bullshit. It is not new to us. Threatening us with hell is the tactic of a desperate child.

If you had anything real to offer us, you wouldn't have to resort to threats of hell.

September 16, 2010

So then O.F., question answered?

It looks to me as if LNC's god condemns most of the human race to hell, giving them no opportunity and/or no ability to believe in and trust in the saving work of Jesus.

Yes, and masterfully, I might add.

I'd just like to hear a Christian admit the truth of your conclusion. Many won't, though, because it makes them uneasy and reveals their biblical "god" for the tyrant he is portrayed as being (though, of course, he isn't a tyrant since he doesn't exist).

Question For The Christians

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