Question For The Christians

[Phanta]

It seems to me that this model would be the one of trying to appease God by trying to do enough good works. There is no "boot licking" in God's Kingdom. We are saved based upon the work that Jesus did for us, not based upon anything we could do. I don't know why that is unfair to us; on the contrary, it is a generous gift that we do not deserve and have not earned.

 

One of the biggest problems I see with the Christian religion, LNC, is Hell. Fear of hell influences people to do a fair amount of bootlicking. This is a people thing. That is not trust, it is fear. Fear of punishment and condemnation is a big motivator for so many people. It seems to me an inherently untrustworthy setup. Do you get what I'm saying? If there are consequences that someone else has established, people are influenced to act out of fear, rather than love. That's not pure or good, and is an awful lot like bootlicking.

 

Phanta

[bdp]

 

we have such a wealth of manuscripts to draw from that we can arrive at within 99% of what was contained in the originals.

 

Again, this means NOTHING. And, again, what we have doesn't even agree within itself.

[bdp]

LNC doesn't dare say what the book really says, he knows it's bad for PR.

 

 

Please go back and read my posts, I don't know how to put it more clearly. Let me state it again for the record. Neither Anne Frank nor anyone else will not be sent to hell for being a Jew. I hope that is clear enough for you.

 

LNC

 

I was referencing someone else referencing a specific verse - the one you keep pretending nobody's mentioned.

 

And what the hell is the bolded portion supposed to mean?

[bdp]

That passage is commonly understood to be a later addition and not a part of the original text, therefore, it is not a passage from which I would use to argue. Can you make your case from another passage?

 

LNC

 

Oh, how convenient...

 

yes, I am in 'snotty bastard' mode today.

 

Sorry, I'm not responsible for what is in our modern translations and what was in the originals, but this is clearly documented to be fact as I have shown.

 

LNC

 

So what?

[bdp]

 

 

 

On the philosophical side, I would suggest that we all worship something (or things) during our lifetimes.

 

Maybe once upon a time I did - I sure as fuck don't now.

[bdp]

 

 

When you think about the idea that a Sovereign of the universe would be rebelled against by his creation,....

 

We have thought about it, and we think it is a wrong and mistaken idea. No evidence for it whatsoever.

 

What Deva said.

[Franko47]

A King who worries about how many people are worshiping him is not worthy to be worshiped.

 

 

Franko47 : stardate today

[MagickMonkey]

The problem is that it does say belief is necessary. I guess one can interpret the bible however. As far as wanting to "apply [my] intellect to read the Bible....", I once cared to study the bible often. After I realized it was bullshit, I decided I had better things to do.

 

I'm curious, if you believe that the Bible is BS, then why are you interested in explaining to me what you think it says? Yes, belief or trust is necessary for salvation, but is not what condemns a person, that is based upon sin and rebellion.

 

LNC

 

I brought up what the bible says because I assumed that your beliefs about what leads to damnation was based on what the bible says. Once you started explaining what you believed was the proper interpretation of the bible and what should or should not be included, I lost interest. I guess I'm being lazy, but for me it's not worth the effort. Like someone else said, there's enough debate between believers without non-believers joining in.

[Mister Pappy]

John 3:18

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already...

 

The OP asks a simple question: Would Anne Frank go to hell for being a Jew, according to the Bible.

Answer: If Anne Frank were a practicing religious Jew, as I suspect she is / was, then yes she goes into the crispy fry when she dies, according to the Bible. Religious Jews do not "believe on Jesus", therefore, they are condemned, according to the Bible - real simple. The question or answer has nothing to do with ethnicity.

 

The question is not pleasant for a believer to answer, especially one who enjoys leaving themselves a back door open through which to escape, because it spills an entire barrel of screaming monkeys to deal with. In this forum, that could be a large pain in the ass. As a result, we have been witness to a miserable and lengthy display of escape artistry for the last 6 pages of posting.

 

[Alice]

Thanks for your vote of confidence, but I don't think I would come anywhere close to being as compassionate as the God of heaven. I'm actually glad that we are not judged based upon our works because that would mean that both our good works and our bad works would be taken into account and weighed out against one another. I realized as a kid that my good works would never outweigh my bad works and realized that I would be doomed. It seems to me that this model would be the one of trying to appease God by trying to do enough good works. There is no "boot licking" in God's Kingdom. We are saved based upon the work that Jesus did for us, not based upon anything we could do. I don't know why that is unfair to us; on the contrary, it is a generous gift that we do not deserve and have not earned.

 

On the philosophical side, I would suggest that we all worship something (or things) during our lifetimes. The problem is that most of the things that we worship are not worthy of worship. We are, in that sense, committing idolatry. If God exists, as I believe he does, then by virtue of who he is he deserves our worship. I can go into more detail as to why later if anyone is curious. I think that when Christianity is properly understood, it is the most logical system of belief out there.

 

When you think about the idea that a Sovereign of the universe would be rebelled against by his creation, why is it illogical that he would send them into exile as a result. There is nothing illogical to this and the banishment is part of the punishment. This is not a Middle Ages invention as you suggest, this model has been around since ancient times.

 

LNC

 

Up until now, I have seen a level of insight in your comments LNC, in relation to the assumptions that are made today about the 'meaning' of historic texts when viewed through a modernist mindset and infused with new beliefs that have taken hold at a much later date and therefore 'change' the potential meanings people can read into words.

 

However, this thinking here breaks my heart, the idea that there is any need to weigh up 'good' versus 'bad' and reward or inhumanely punish for an eternity accordingly is just alien to me. And the creation of 'sins' that harm no one except God's ego are perverse to me.

 

A God that sets a standard no one can meet, provides a solution that some people don't connect with and then banishes them as a result does not make good sense.

 

I would not banish my children or punish my children for adopting (rebelling against)a different lifestyle (creation) than mine. Once upon a time parents did this - some still do. Hopefully more and more we will evolve beyond such controlling behaviour.

 

There is a way of reading the Bible and other religious texts that teaches things about the human condition that don't require a literalist belief in hell, a personality God or the worthlessness of mankind.

 

A King who worries about how many people are worshiping him is not worthy to be worshiped.

 

 

Franko47 : stardate today

 

I agree wholeheartedly

[Thackerie]

 

 

Who wouldn't want eternal life?

 

Me. I've had as much as I care for of this one, to be honest.

 

 

Agreed. I'm still enjoying my life, for the most part. But the thought of an eternal, ceaseless, endless life is too painfully boring to contemplate. And if it is to be spent in the presence of that horrible character depicted as God in the Bible, no thanks, I'd rather just be dead.

[Vigile]

I have studied this for many years and continue to do so and I would recommend that you continue to do so as well.

 

 

Arrogant sod.

 

Agree, but he's also a self-punishing sod. Spending years studying that mish mash is no undoubtedly less fulfilling than studying Harry Potter and certainly less healthy.

[oddbird1963]

 

On the philosophical side, I would suggest that we all worship something (or things) during our lifetimes.

 

Maybe once upon a time I did - I sure as fuck don't now.

 

wor·ship 

–verb (used with object)

6. to render religious reverence and homage to.

7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

–verb (used without object)

8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.

9. to attend services of divine worship.

10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

 

LNC,

 

You , once again, play with your own unique connotations of words. Certainly, people raised in religious cultures with parents and roles models who value religion or the worship of a deity pass these values on to other people.

 

That is the meaning conveighed in items 6, 8 and 9 from dictionary.com under the listing for worship.

 

There is a less ultimate sense of the word. Like "worshipping" a hero such as a football player, a particularrly skilled and respected businessman or perhaps a love interest.

 

Everyone knows when the word "worship" is used in that sense, it is not the same as "worship" in the religious sense. So, your point about people committing idolotry is rather silly and only works with smug believers who want to feel superior of their choices of deities to worship.

 

So, to nullify your notion, I tell you "No." Using the normally accepted and well documented sense of the word "worship", we don't all worship something, because I don't worship something. And many many people at this site do not either.

[Vigile]

because that would mean that both our good works and our bad works would be taken into account and weighed out against one another

 

LNC

 

You may be less compassionate than your god but your fellow human being generally is more. Every day human judges and juries weigh the sins of their fellow humans, not even allowing themselves to weigh in the good, and they absolutely never conclude no matter how bad a person is, that that person will spend an eternity in torment. That would be inhumane; though apparently not ungodly.

[Vigile]

A man was shot dead.

 

Was it the exsanguination (hypovolemia), the wound, the bullet, the gun, or the shooter that killed the man?

 

So what sends a person to Hell? The sin, the unbelief, rebellion, or God?

 

It depends on view, doesn't it?

 

Damn, I was trying to figure out a way to say that and I finally gave up. U da man, man!

[florduh]

I think we get the Christians with odd interpretations of Scripture because other Christians don't want to deal with them. We're dumb enough to listen and argue. Mainstream Christians just call them heretics and move on.

[Sconnor]

That passage is commonly understood to be a later addition and not a part of the original text, therefore, it is not a passage from which I would use to argue. Can you make your case from another passage?

 

LNC

 

Oh, how convenient...

 

yes, I am in 'snotty bastard' mode today.

 

Sorry, I'm not responsible for what is in our modern translations and what was in the originals, but this is clearly documented to be fact as I have shown.

 

LNC

 

Right – I guess god stopped inspiring his word.

 

I wonder why -- the creator of the infinite universe -- allowed his word to be manipulated? And I wonder why he would use a book that couldn’t possibly get to the masses due to land barriers, language barriers, technological barriers, if it was so important to receive god’s message of salvation?

 

And while I’m thinking of it – I wonder why god’s word is soooooo convoluted that it would take years of study and using the correct method to interpret it (as we ALL know LNC’s method is infallible) if it was so important to save his earthly children from condemnation?

 

For me, knowing that men just added shit to the bible to push agendas from their specific time and culture is a powerful indication the whole bible was a human construct – I have to wonder how much of scripture was added later, considering we do NOT have ANY of the ORIGINAL manuscripts.

 

Knowing that there are thousands of errors in the copying and added texts that do NOT correspond to remaining manuscripts which indicates how the whole bible was constructed and coupled with the fact that these were oral stories told over decades or hundreds of years, where men could elaborate and/or fabricate – puts the whole bible into question.

 

Oh and major inconsistencies, contradictions, breaches of reason, superstitious mumbo-jumbo, magic, talking snakes and donkeys and so on is a painful reminder to the believer, the bible is a fallible human construct that did NOT have a divine hand in it, at all.

 

--S.

[Sconnor]

 

On the philosophical side, I would suggest that we all worship something (or things) during our lifetimes.

 

Maybe once upon a time I did - I sure as fuck don't now.

 

wor·ship 

–verb (used with object)

6. to render religious reverence and homage to.

7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

–verb (used without object)

8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.

9. to attend services of divine worship.

10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

 

LNC,

 

You , once again, play with your own unique connotations of words. Certainly, people raised in religious cultures with parents and roles models who value religion or the worship of a deity pass these values on to other people.

 

That is the meaning conveighed in items 6, 8 and 9 from dictionary.com under the listing for worship.

 

There is a less ultimate sense of the word. Like "worshipping" a hero such as a football player, a particularrly skilled and respected businessman or perhaps a love interest.

 

Everyone knows when the word "worship" is used in that sense, it is not the same as "worship" in the religious sense. So, your point about people committing idolotry is rather silly and only works with smug believers who want to feel superior of their choices of deities to worship.

 

So, to nullify your notion, I tell you "No." Using the normally accepted and well documented sense of the word "worship", we don't all worship something, because I don't worship something. And many many people at this site do not either.

 

Hey Oddbird,

 

Has LNC addressed John 3:18 at post #66?

 

--S.

[Ouroboros]

A man was shot dead.

 

Was it the exsanguination (hypovolemia), the wound, the bullet, the gun, or the shooter that killed the man?

 

So what sends a person to Hell? The sin, the unbelief, rebellion, or God?

 

It depends on view, doesn't it?

 

Damn, I was trying to figure out a way to say that and I finally gave up. U da man, man!

Thanks. Sometimes I find it easier to explain something with an example.

 

I'm sure I'll be accused of using some fallacy.

[florduh]

Was it the exsanguination (hypovolemia), the wound, the bullet, the gun, or the shooter that killed the man?

It was the Second Amendment that killed him, but you still da man!

[Guest end3]

I think we get the Christians with odd interpretations of Scripture because other Christians don't want to deal with them. We're dumb enough to listen and argue. Mainstream Christians just call them heretics and move on.

 

I think I am caught somewhere between caring and "how can these people be so incredibly wrong". But I agree, most Christians I have attempted to visit with about atheists/deists/agnostics, etc......yes, they write y'all off pretty quickly...in about 1 to 1.5 sentences....end of conversation. So maybe we each need something from the conversation.....and unltimately, I think the best representation of caring(love) for each other is speaking the truth to one another.

[florduh]

yes, they write y'all off pretty quickly

True, but what I said was they dismiss the oddball Christian "heretic." It doesn't seem strange they quickly dismiss atheists, deists, others who claim to NOT be Christian at all.

[oddbird1963]

 

Hey Oddbird,

 

Has LNC addressed John 3:18 at post #66?

 

--S.

 

Nope, not a peep!

[Ouroboros]

Was it the exsanguination (hypovolemia), the wound, the bullet, the gun, or the shooter that killed the man?

It was the Second Amendment that killed him, but you still da man!

Stop taffy-pulling. It'll make you into an Alinsky.

 

No,wait. Wrong topic.

 

[Guest end3]

yes, they write y'all off pretty quickly

True, but what I said was they dismiss the oddball Christian "heretic." It doesn't seem strange they quickly dismiss atheists, deists, others who claim to NOT be Christian at all.

 

Well, I am skeptical about mainstream Christianity C.... I don't know how far they get into the search. Certainly not far enough to get uncomfortable.