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Goodbye Jesus

Question For The Christians


LastKing

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If you were God would you send Anne Frank to Hell where she would suffer forever for being Jewish?

Yes or No

 

No.

God doesn't send people to hell. People send people to Hell. The only Hell that exists is the one you create.

Hell or Heaven is Now. You don't need to wait for it.

And I'm a Christian, studying the original texts in Aramaic.

Anne Frank is blessed because she is Jewish.

 

 

The original teachings are Non-dual. Everything is God. There is only Eternal Life. אין עוד מלבדו אין עוד מלבדו אין עוד מלבדו

 

So god is a baby with maggot infested lungs, then? Some god.

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How does mankind's ability to reason, or the existence of what you call objective morality, "PROVE" anything other than the fact that humans have the ability to reason and that morality is objective? I don't necessarily agree with your position on the objectivity of morals, but that's beside the point. I am simply curious as to how these two examples stand as proof of your deity.

 

First, consciousness is an aspect of our being that cannot be explained from a materialist worldview. Consciousness involves intentionality, or the fact that we have thoughts of or about objects, ideas, and concepts in this world (the last two being immaterial features of this world). Intentionality is something that doesn't exist in physical stuff. For example, no matter how complex you could make a computer, it would not have the ability to think of or about anything. For example, Data from Star Trek is sitting at a computer

is a nice idea for a fictional TV show, but it is not a realizable reality. There is no self inside of Data, only circuitry. If there is no self, there is no morality with androids either. There is nothing to have intentional thoughts, nothing to make intentional decisions, no one to offend or who can offend. There is no enduring self with machines, just parts. We, on the other hand, are enduring selves, with intentional thoughts, and consciousness. These are features that are not made of matter, as is the case with our thoughts as well. These are not epiphenomenal properties either, as epiphenomenal properties cannot explain all of the phenomena that we experience and are not causal in nature. So, the fact that we can reason points to the fact that we have an immaterial aspect to us called consciousness and the self. Because we have this aspect to our natures, we can be moral creatures as well.

 

LNC

 

LNC ... you have no point, but I am seriously disinterested in having a three month delayed conversation with you. I am simply not that desperate the hear your shit. Talk to someone who cares enough to wait for your responses.

 

Mr. Pappy

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don't come here and post wishy washy, testicle-free BS like "Anne Frank is blessed because she is Jewish."

I didn't know our posts were subject to your scrutiny before being permitted on this forum Donna. Perhaps a bit more "testicle free" posting could do some of us - calling no names - some good once in a while. Testicles, especially the manufactured kind, can really get in the way of communication. Growing a set of balls doesn't necessarily mean you have to go around stepping on every one else's constantly to prove yourself.

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Guest Spinoza

If you were God would you send Anne Frank to Hell where she would suffer forever for being Jewish?

Yes or No

 

No.

 

God doesn't send people to hell. People send people to Hell. The only Hell that exists is the one you create.

 

Hell or Heaven is Now. You don't need to wait for it.

 

And I'm a Christian, studying the original texts in Aramaic.

 

Anne Frank is blessed because she is Jewish.

So what are you saying here? Being 'blessed' doesn't mean cobblers. Does she go to hell, or not? Not because she was a jew, but because she doesn't believe that jesus is the son of god, and 'lets him into her heart'. Does she qualify for salvation on being a jew? Or does she burn because she's not a christian?

 

Christianity is a sick, depraved mindset, a mental disease, and you've got it bad. You'll either try to alleviate your the horrible implications of the rules of christianity (only 'christians' are saved) by making up some bullshit that makes you feel better, or you'll admit the reality of the sick teachings of christianity, and show yourself to be an object of moral contempt for holding such disgusting, hate filled values.

 

Your choice. But don't come here and post wishy washy, testicle-free BS like "Anne Frank is blessed because she is Jewish." Man up and answer the fucking question. Grow some fucking cobblers, you coward.

 

Look here, if you read the very 1st word of my response I said "NO." Anne Frank does not go to Hell. Anne Frank is One with God.

 

The Jewish People ar the greatest Treasure to mankind. Jesus is Jewish, Spinoza is Jewish, Moses is Jewish, Einstein is Jewish, Freud Carl Sagan, Hitchens,

Zuckerberg, Brin and Page, Ellison is Jewish, etc etc etc etc........

 

Close to 50 % of all the Nobel Prize Winners are Jewish. http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

 

Not bad for a people who only make up .0019 % of the World's Population. The Jewish People are the greatest physical Proof of God's existence. Deut 7:6-7

 

That's what I call a Treasure to mankind.

6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

 

7 The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples.

 

 

Go tell it on the mountain

Over the hills and everywhere

Go tell it on the mountain

That Jesus Christ was born.

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Close to 50 % of all the Nobel Prize Winners are Jewish. http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

 

Not bad for a people who only make up .0019 % of the World's Population. The Jewish People are the greatest physical Proof of God's existence. Deut 7:6-7

Like any Christian, you see what you want to see to fit your preconceptions. Personally I prefer to give Jewish folks credit for being intelligent, ambitious and diligent; I don't take anything away from that by suggesting that their accomplishments come from magic fairy dust.

 

Besides, it proves nothing about God's existence. You're confusing association with proof. I could write down that you will live long and prosper, but if you actually do, it will not be prophetic. It won't prove that I have the gift of prophecy. It's way too general a prediction to even begin to make anyone wonder if I had a gift.

 

Besides, it's all a matter of perspective. You could argue that for all the suffering the Jewish people have endured, God's predictions haven't come true at all. You could argue, just as speciously as you argue that the percentage of Nobel Prize winners proves God's favor, that Buchenwald and Dachau prove God's disfavor or his lack of faithfulness to his own promises.

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Guest Spinoza

Like any Christian, you see what you want to see to fit your preconceptions. Personally I prefer to give Jewish folks credit for being intelligent, ambitious and diligent; I don't take anything away from that by suggesting that their accomplishments come from magic fairy dust.

 

Besides, it proves nothing about God's existence. You're confusing association with proof. I could write down that you will live long and prosper, but if you actually do, it will not be prophetic. It won't prove that I have the gift of prophecy. It's way too general a prediction to even begin to make anyone wonder if I had a gift.

 

Besides, it's all a matter of perspective. You could argue that for all the suffering the Jewish people have endured, God's predictions haven't come true at all. You could argue, just as speciously as you argue that the percentage of Nobel Prize winners proves God's favor, that Buchenwald and Dachau prove God's disfavor or his lack of faithfulness to his own promises.

 

I'm not talking about magik or fairy dust. I'm talking about the Treasure of the mind, intellect and will.

 

The dude was trying to make me say that Jews are condemned to Hell for some reason or another. - I went the other Way.

 

Jews are not condemned to Hell. Not bad for a people who only make up .0019 % of the World's Population.

 

treasured..... for you were the fewest of all peoples......

 

That's not a prophecy, it's not a miracle, it's not supernatural - but it's pretty amazing.

 

..... atheists are always looking for proofs. They will not see any proofs until they know who they are.

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm not talking about magik or fairy dust. I'm talking about the Treasure of the mind, intellect and will ... That's not a prophecy, it's not a miracle, it's not supernatural - but it's pretty amazing.

It's remarkable, and arguably amazing, but you were presenting it as a proof of God's existence, which is taking it way beyond what it will actually support.

..... atheists are always looking for proofs. They will not see any proofs until they know who they are.

Are you suggesting I don't know who I am, but you do? Seems a little impertinent, but whatever. The kindest thing I can say is that you're making a generalization about atheists that greatly oversimplifies the real world.

 

Christians like to suggest that atheists are hung up on needing proof, but I counter that theists are hung up on needing proof. Proof in the form of certitude and simplicity and lack of ambiguity and paradox. Vindication in the form of immortality.

 

The funny thing in all this is that atheists aren't the ones demanding that things be a certain way or that everything be 100% comprehensible and explainable to us. It's believers who do that by latching on to a particular prefabricated explanation for reality and then force-fitting scripture, experience, science and a whole lot of other stuff into conformance with it. All we're doing, in its purest form, stripped of whatever human failings of preconception individuals might bring to it, is letting life be what it is.

 

As a Christian, you can't do that. You have a rather quirky and individualistic set of assumptions compared to most -- I daresay most Christians other than the most liberal are very uncomfortable with Spinoza's philosophy -- but you still have your set of assumptions. We unbelievers on the other hand assume nothing more than what we can say with some reasonable level of confidence. Nothing more and nothing less. We have nothing to prove, or even really anything to disprove. Things just are what they are.

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Hey BAA.

 

Sure, I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on:

 

Some claim that Shoel is, literally, the grave itself. Does that make sense here, if Joseph was eaten by animals? Jacob would not have his body to put into a grave.

 

Also, what does it mean to tear garments and put sackcloth on one's loins? I get that the tearing clothes thing is a big grief show, but what does it mean?

 

Phanta

 

Ok Phanta.

 

I can help on the first, but for the second, you'd have to ask Davka. He's of Jewish descent and upbringing, so he could help out with the culture nuances you're asking about.

 

Anyway, If you look here... http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen37.pdf

...and scroll down, you'll come to the relevant verses, 34 to 36.

 

In 35, the direct translation reads, " ...and . he-is-saying that I-shall-go-down to son-of . me mourning unseen . ward and . he-is-lamenting >> . him father-of-him"

 

Please note that 'unseen.ward' is the pivotal word here. It is rendered as shal·e and derives from the Hebrew word Sheol. Do you see how well the OT notion of the 'unseen' dead abiding in Sheol agrees with the NT concept of the 'unseen/unperceived' dead abiding in Hades? Peas-in-a-pod, really.

 

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev1.pdf Please look at verse 18, where it translates as... "...I-AM-HAVING THE LOCKers (keys) OF-THE UN-PERCEIVED (unseen) AND OF-THE DEATH."

The key word in this case is 'unperceived'. It is rendered as hadou and derives from the Koine (NT Greek) word Hades.

 

See what I mean?

 

Scripture, from Genesis thru to Revelation is in good agreement that the spirits of the dead are unseen by the living, going to their temporary place of waiting (Sheol in the OT and Hades in the NT) and not waking until the Last Day.

 

So, Sheol can colloquially mean the grave, that is, a hole or burial pit dug into the ground, but it's more proper meaning is the abode of the sleeping spirits of the dead. Therefore, your point about Jacob not having his son's body to put into Sheol, is correct. If Joseph had been killed by a wild animal (as Jacob believed), his body would have been torn to pieces and probably eaten. But Joseph's animating spirit would then have been securely ensconced with the rest of the sleeping dead in Sheol.

 

This explains why Jacob expected to live out the rest of his life in mourning and sadness, then, when he died, he would join Joseph in Sheol. Please note Phanta, that Sheol was not considered to be a place of mourning. If you look at Ecclesiastes 9:10, king Solomon wrote...

 

10Whatever your hand finds to do,(O) do it with your might,(P) for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

 

No. Sheol is a place of sleep, not activity. Jacob expected to mourn for the rest of his life and then join his son in sleep. I shall go down mourning..." means that he will mourn until his dying breath.

 

That help?

 

BAA.

 

Yes, that helps a lot. You were very clear. Thanks! I see what you are saying about Shoel being an unseen spirit-place of sleep.

 

You are also saying it can sometimes mean grave, though. (Which others have said). What is your evidence for that?

 

Phanta

 

p.s. Davka was banned a long while ago.

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If you were God would you send Anne Frank to Hell where she would suffer forever for being Jewish?

Yes or No

 

No.

 

God doesn't send people to hell. People send people to Hell. The only Hell that exists is the one you create.

 

Hell or Heaven is Now. You don't need to wait for it.

 

And I'm a Christian, studying the original texts in Aramaic.

 

Anne Frank is blessed because she is Jewish.

So what are you saying here? Being 'blessed' doesn't mean cobblers. Does she go to hell, or not? Not because she was a jew, but because she doesn't believe that jesus is the son of god, and 'lets him into her heart'. Does she qualify for salvation on being a jew? Or does she burn because she's not a christian?

 

Christianity is a sick, depraved mindset, a mental disease, and you've got it bad. You'll either try to alleviate your the horrible implications of the rules of christianity (only 'christians' are saved) by making up some bullshit that makes you feel better, or you'll admit the reality of the sick teachings of christianity, and show yourself to be an object of moral contempt for holding such disgusting, hate filled values.

 

Your choice. But don't come here and post wishy washy, testicle-free BS like "Anne Frank is blessed because she is Jewish." Man up and answer the fucking question. Grow some fucking cobblers, you coward.

 

Look here, if you read the very 1st word of my response I said "NO." Anne Frank does not go to Hell. Anne Frank is One with God.

 

The Jewish People ar the greatest Treasure to mankind. Jesus is Jewish, Spinoza is Jewish, Moses is Jewish, Einstein is Jewish, Freud Carl Sagan, Hitchens,

Zuckerberg, Brin and Page, Ellison is Jewish, etc etc etc etc........

 

Close to 50 % of all the Nobel Prize Winners are Jewish. http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

 

Not bad for a people who only make up .0019 % of the World's Population. The Jewish People are the greatest physical Proof of God's existence. Deut 7:6-7

 

That's what I call a Treasure to mankind.

6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

 

7 The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples.

 

 

Go tell it on the mountain

Over the hills and everywhere

Go tell it on the mountain

That Jesus Christ was born.

So you're saying we don't need to be christians to go to heaven?

 

Then I guess your message here is redundant.

 

Either you need to be a christian to be saved, or you don't. If you don't, then there is no reason to be a christian, and you are wasting your time.

 

I also think that any god who doles out salvation according to whim by 'blessing' people at random is depraved, because he ignores all those he does not 'bless', and condemns them in doing so to hell. In this case, salvation is like having the winning ticket in a totally random lottery, to which there are only a limited number of prizes. Nothing you can therefore do, (INCLUDING BELIEVING IN JESUS) would therefore have any influence over your salvation.

 

Do you understand now why I say you need to grow a pair and answer the question? Because saying Anne Frank is blessed doesn't actually answer the question. Neither does saying she is 'one with god'. These are not answers or explanations, they are wishy washy, feelgood, thought terminating cliches that don't actually answer the question.

 

Be specific. WHY does she not burn in hell? If she is 'one with god' without being a christian, then why are you a christian, if it is totally unnecessary?

 

I think the reason you're blindsiding us with meaningless phrases like 'one with god' which don't answer the question is because really, deep down, you know that according to christianity, Anne Frank burns like a forgotten toasted cheese sandwich, for all eternity. This disturbs you greatly, but you're trying to reconcile it with what you've been told about god being loving, even though, in this situation, god is demonstrably a sick, depraved fuck.

 

I still think you're a coward for not facing up to the obvious consequences of your beliefs.

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don't come here and post wishy washy, testicle-free BS like "Anne Frank is blessed because she is Jewish."

I didn't know our posts were subject to your scrutiny before being permitted on this forum Donna. Perhaps a bit more "testicle free" posting could do some of us - calling no names - some good once in a while. Testicles, especially the manufactured kind, can really get in the way of communication. Growing a set of balls doesn't necessarily mean you have to go around stepping on every one else's constantly to prove yourself.

So you're saying that avoiding the question by posting meaningless phrases that don't actually answer it, and providing no explanation to support his assertion, is an answer?

 

"Anne Frank is blessed because she is Jewish" is his explanation. The implications of that explanation is that you don't need to be a christian to get to heaven, which makes christianity entirely unnecessary, which means there is no purpose in being a christian. It also goes against the fundamental teaching of christianity.

 

"Anne Frank is blessed because she is Jewish" is a thought free cop out. Either he hasn't thought about the consequences of his statement, or he is not a christian.

 

Resorting to a cop out answer like what he posted above is evidence that he hasn't thought about the logical consequences of his statement. I stand by my statement that he needs to grow a pair, instead of making things up that defy the basic principles of christianity to alleviate the disgust he feels because he knows that the bible clearly says that only christians go to heaven, and he knows that Anne Frank was just a defenceless little girl who his god wants to burn in hell.

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I stand by my statement that he needs to grow a pair, instead of making things up that defy the basic principles of christianity to alleviate the disgust he feels because he knows that the bible clearly says that only christians go to heaven, and he knows that Anne Frank was just a defenceless little girl who his god wants to burn in hell.

Donna ... what you feel someone "needs" to do and what they desire to do or will do is quite likely two different things. If you expect anyone to listen to your pseudo macho feminine bullshit as great advice for their own lives, you are likely to be disappointed. I observe as you so often advise those who disagree with you, as to what they "need to do" to be better people - this according to Donna. You mix it up with words such as: pussy, dork, wimp, dickless-wonder, and so on ... I haven't heard talk like that from educated people ever in my life. I am not so sure Ray didn't have a point back several weeks ago (I know you remember).

 

You seem to have the mentality of a 4th grade boy, afraid of being challenged, who takes up the art of being a bully in an effort to thwart any attempts to test his authority or size of his teeny tiny balls. People around here feed you reputation points when you behave like a retard, because it obviously works the same with you as it does with giving a desired object to any other dumb animal who one would like to encourage a particular behavior in. It's a joke Donna, and the joke is on you, because you allow it, by not seeing it for what it is. Everyone loves to encourage the class fool to continue being a clown. He or she makes them laugh, but they would never trade places with him or her, for a second. Simply put Donna ... as a friend ... shut up.

 

Pappy

 

 

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I stand by my statement that he needs to grow a pair, instead of making things up that defy the basic principles of christianity to alleviate the disgust he feels because he knows that the bible clearly says that only christians go to heaven, and he knows that Anne Frank was just a defenceless little girl who his god wants to burn in hell.

Donna ... what you feel someone "needs" to do and what they desire to do or will do is quite likely two different things. If you expect anyone to listen to your pseudo macho feminine bullshit as great advice for their own lives, you are likely to be disappointed. I observe as you so often advise those who disagree with you, as to what they "need to do" to be better people - this according to Donna. You mix it up with words such as: pussy, dork, wimp, dickless-wonder, and so on ... I haven't heard talk like that from educated people ever in my life. I am not so sure Ray didn't have a point back several weeks ago (I know you remember).

 

You seem to have the mentality of a 4th grade boy, afraid of being challenged, who takes up the art of being a bully in an effort to thwart any attempts to test his authority or size of his teeny tiny balls. People around here feed you reputation points when you behave like a retard, because it obviously works the same with you as it does with giving a desired object to any other dumb animal who one would like to encourage a particular behavior in. It's a joke Donna, and the joke is on you, because you allow it, by not seeing it for what it is. Everyone loves to encourage the class fool to continue being a clown. He or she makes them laugh, but they would never trade places with him or her, for a second. Simply put Donna ... as a friend ... shut up.

 

Pappy

If it upsets you so much, just put me on ignore. Then you don't have to be offended by my posts anymore.

 

If he's a christian, he could be here for several reasons. Perhaps he wants us all to reconvert to christianity. Perhaps he's studying us so he can hone his skills to try on other non christians. Perhaps he actually has some legitimate doubts and wants us to help him with them (I have seen nothing to support this option so far).

 

When I was a christian, I was honest enough to admit that Anne Frank would burn in hell, because she wasn't a christian. Every christian I knew believed the same thing. The bible was quite clear on this. I was ready to face that. Even if I didn't understand how a loving god could do such a thing, I genuinely tried to accept that there were some things I couldn't understand, but I didn't try to believe things that contradicted scripture just so I felt better about it. And I certainly wouldn't advertise a belief that contradicted scripture, because that would lead others to hell. I took that very, very seriously.

 

To say that Anne Frank goes to heaven is the easy way out, and it defies scripture, and what most christians I know actually believe. It's easy on the emotions. I might be harsh, but I think that lying to yourself constantly about how the judeochristian god is loving and compassionate despite evidence to the contrary is inherently damaging to human beings. Far more damaging than anything I could possibly say. It certainly was for me, and I know I'm not the only one damaged by it.

 

You don't have to read my posts if you don't want to. They made the Ignore button for people like me.

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Guest Spinoza

 

Be specific. WHY does she not burn in hell? If she is 'one with god' without being a christian, then why are you a christian, if it is totally unnecessary?

 

 

 

1. Anne Frank does not burn in hell beacuse there is no Hell.

 

I'm a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Anishinabe, atheist, etc etc ....

 

I was born Catholic and I remain Catholic. I believe that Jesus is God and so are You. That is all that exists.

 

Anne Frank is "One with God" bacause "God" is all that exists. You are also "one with God" though you have not realized it yet.

 

Have you heard the phrase ein od milvado ? God is One., and there is nothing other than God. It is not Mono-theism it is Monism.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monism

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To say that Anne Frank goes to heaven is the easy way out, and it defies scripture, and what most christians I know actually believe.

You can't force anyone to respond to questions the way you think they should. It borders on insanity to believe that the rest of the world should perform for you by a script which you have deemed valid.

 

 

You don't have to read my posts if you don't want to. They made the Ignore button for people like me.

Donna ... I am fully aware of my rights, but thank you for so graciously giving me permission to not read your posts. You make a spectacle of the rest of us - clowns, idiots, fools. You bring our credibility, in many cases to zero. For a long time, I gave you the bennifit of the doubt, thinking you were having successive bad day after bad day. The truth is, you never stop because you are the court's jester and you believe you have a loving audience. I will read your posts and comment on them from time to time, so that the rest of those who may lurk, will know that every exchristian out here isn't full of bile and venom and looking for their next victim.

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If he's a christian, he could be here for several reasons. Perhaps he wants us all to reconvert to christianity.

So what? Don't ... and you will have won.

 

 

 

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Just so you know, Spinoza isn't the ordinary supernaturally believing Christian. He's got his own version of a naturalistic Christian/Jewish/Buddhist/Pantheist... belief. He consider Christianity more of a philosophy than a salvation from sin. (If I got him right) He doesn't believe Jesus is God's only son, but rather that we all are sons and daughters of the Heavens (the Universe, life, reality, and such). He doesn't believe in a literal Hell or after death experience of judgment from some external God. He consider all that exist to be God.

 

I just wanted to let you know so you don't think of him or his opinions to be the traditional evangelical Christian stuff.

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don't think of him or his opinions to be the traditional evangelical Christian stuff.

Yes ... I noticed this early on Hans and find his views very interesting - much different than the typical nutcracker Christian for sure.

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Guest Spinoza

don't think of him or his opinions to be the traditional evangelical Christian stuff.

Yes ... I noticed this early on Hans and find his views very interesting - much different than the typical nutcracker Christian for sure.

 

 

This is True. I am a Monist. Jesus is God and so is everything else. What is God ?

 

I like what Spinoza. Einstein and Carl Sagan have to say .... as well as the Isha Upanishad - probably written by Jesus himeself.

 

Isha = Jesus in India.

 

I am an Isha-ian sometimes called Essene or Nazarene. Esse = To Be...... I am and so are you.

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Isha = Jesus in India.

Have you read Notovitch's Lost Years of JC? If not, you would like it.

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Guest Spinoza

Isa Upanishad

Translated and Commentated by

Swami Paramananda From the original Sanskrit Text This volume is reverently dedicated to all seekers of truth and lovers of wisdom

  • This Upanishad desires its title from the opening words Isa–vasya, “God–covered.” The use of Isa (Lord)–a more personal name of the Supreme Being than Brahman, Atman or Self, the names usually found in the Upanishads–constitutes one of its peculiarities. It forms the closing chapter of the Yajur–Veda, known as Shukla (White). Oneness of the Soul and God, and the value of both faith and works as means of ultimate attainment are the leading themes of this Upanishad. The general teaching of the Upanishads is that works alone, even the highest, can bring only temporary happiness and must inevitably bind a man unless through them he gains knowledge of his real Self. To help him acquire this knowledge is the aim of this and all Upanishads.
     
    Isa Upanishad

    Peace Chant
    OM! That (the Invisible–Absolute) is whole; whole is this (the visible phenomenal); from the Invisible Whole comes forth the visible whole. Though the visible whole has come out from that Invisible Whole, yet the Whole remains unaltered. OM! PEACE! PEACE! PEACE!
    The indefinite term “That” is used in the Upanishads to designate the Invisible–Absolute, because no word or name can fully define It. A finite object, like a table or a tree, can be defined; but God, who is infinite and unbounded, cannot be expressed by finite language. Therefore the Rishis or Divine Seers, desirous not to limit the Unlimited, chose the indefinite term “That” to designate the Absolute. In the light of true wisdom the phenomenal and the Absolute are inseparable. All existence is in the Absolute; and whatever exists, must exist in It; hence all manifestation is merely a modification of the One Supreme Whole, and neither increases nor diminishes It. The Whole therefore remains unaltered.
    I
    All this, whatsoever exists in the universe, should be covered by the Lord. Having renounced (the unreal), enjoy (the Real). Do not covet the wealth of any man. We cover all things with the Lord by perceiving the Divine Presence everywhere. When the consciousness is firmly fixed in God, the conception of diversity naturally drops away; because the One Cosmic Existence shines through all things. As we gain the light of wisdom, we cease to cling to the unrealities of this world and we find all our joy in the realm of Reality.
    The word “enjoy” is also interpreted by the great commentator Sankaracharya as “protect,” because knowledge of our true Self is the greatest protector and sustainer. If we do not have this knowledge, we cannot be happy; because nothing on this external plane of phenomena is permanent or dependable. He who is rich in the knowledge of the Self does not covet external power or possession.
    II
    If one should desire to live in this world a hundred years, one should live performing Karma (righteous deeds). Thus thou mayest live; there is no other way. By doing this, Karma (the fruits of thy actions) will not defile thee. If a man still clings to long life and earthly possessions, and is therefore unable to follow the path of Self–knowledge (Gnana–Nishta) as prescribed in the first Mantram (text), then he may follow the path of right action (Karma–Nishta). Karma here means actions performed without selfish motive, for the sake of the Lord alone. When a man performs actions clinging blindly to his lower desires, then his actions bind him to the plane of ignorance or the plane of birth and death; but when the same actions are performed with surrender to God, they purify and liberate him.
    III
    After leaving their bodies, they who have killed the Self go to the worlds of the Asuras, covered with blinding ignorance. The idea of rising to bright regions as a reward for well–doers, and of falling into realms of darkness as a punishment for evil–doers is common to all great religions. But Vedanta claims that this condition of heaven and hell is only temporary; because our actions, being finite, can produce only a finite result. What does it mean “to kill the Self?” How can the immortal Soul ever be destroyed? It cannot be destroyed, it can only be obscured. Those who hold themselves under the sway of ignorance, who serve the flesh and neglect the Atman or the real Self, are not able to perceive the effulgent and indestructible nature of their Soul; hence they fall into the realm where the Soul light does not shine. Here the Upanishad shows that the only hell is absence of knowledge. As long as man is overpowered by the darkness of ignorance, he is the slave of Nature and must accept whatever comes as the fruit of his thoughts and deeds. When he strays into the path of unreality, the Sages declare that he destroys himself; because he who clings to the perishable body and regards it as his true Self must experience death many times.
    IV
    That One, though motionless, is swifter than the mind. The senses can never overtake It, for It ever goes before. Though immovable, It travels faster than those who run. By It the all–pervading air sustains all living beings. This verse explains the character of the Atman or Self. A finite object can be taken from one place and put in another, but it can only occupy one space at a time. The Atman, however, is present everywhere; hence, though one may run with the greatest swiftness to overtake It, already It is there before him. Even the all–pervading air must be supported by this Self, since It is infinite; and as nothing can live without breathing air, all living things must draw their life from the Cosmic Self.
    V
    It moves and It moves not. It is far and also It is near. It is within and also It is without all this. It is near to those who have the power to understand It, for It dwells in the heart of every one; but It seems far to those whose mind is covered by the clouds of sensuality and self– delusion. It is within, because It is the innermost Soul of all creatures; and It is without as the essence of the whole external universe, infilling it like the all–pervading ether.
    VI
    He who sees all beings in the Self and the Self in all beings, he never turns away from It (the Self).
    VII
    He who perceives all beings as the Self’ for him how can there be delusion or grief, when he sees this oneness (everywhere) ? He who perceives the Self everywhere never shrinks from anything, because through his higher consciousness he feels united with all life. When a man sees God in all beings and all beings in God, and also God dwelling in his own Soul, how can he hate any living thing? Grief and delusion rest upon a belief in diversity, which leads to competition and all forms of selfishness. With the realization of oneness, the sense of diversity vanishes and the cause of misery is removed.
    VIII
    He (the Self) is all–encircling, resplendent, bodiless, spotless, without sinews, pure, untouched by sin, all–seeing, all–knowing, transcendent, self–existent; He has disposed all things duly for eternal years. This text defines the real nature of the Self. When our mind is cleansed from the dross of matter, then alone can we behold the vast, radiant, subtle, ever–pure and spotless Self, the true basis of our existence.
    IX
    They enter into blind darkness who worship Avidya (ignorance and delusion); they fall, as it were, into greater darkness who worship Vidya (knowledge).
    X
    By Vidya one end is attained; by Avidya, another. Thus we have heard from the wise men who taught this.
    XI
    He who knows at the same time both Vidya and Avidya, crosses over death by Avidya and attains immortality through Vidya. Those who follow or “worship” the path of selfishness and pleasure (Avidya), without knowing anything higher, necessarily fall into darkness; but those who worship or cherish Vidya (knowledge) for mere intellectual pride and satisfaction, fall into greater darkness, because the opportunity which they misuse is greater. In the subsequent verses Vidya and Avidya are used in something the same sense as “faith” and “works” in the Christian Bible; neither alone can lead to the ultimate goal, but when taken together they carry one to the Highest. Work done with unselfish motive purifies the mind and enables man to perceive his undying nature. From this he gains inevitably a knowledge of God, because the Soul and God are one and inseparable; and when he knows himself to be one with the Supreme and Indestructible Whole, he realizes his immortality.
    XII
    They fall into blind darkness who worship the Unmanifested and they fall into greater darkness who worship the manifested.
    XIII
    By the worship of the Unmanifested one end is attained; by the worship of the manifested, another. Thus we have heard from the wise men who taught us this.
    XIV
    He who knows at the same time both the Unmanifested (the cause of manifestation) and the destructible or manifested, he crosses over death through knowledge of the destructible and attains immortality through knowledge of the First Cause (Unmanifested). This particular Upanishad deals chiefly with the Invisible Cause and the visible manifestation, and the whole trend of its teaching is to show that they are one and the same, one being the outcome of the other hence no perfect knowledge is possible without simultaneous comprehension of both. The wise men declare that he who worships in a one–sided way, whether the visible or the invisible, does not reach the highest goal. Only he who has a co–ordinated understanding of both the visible and the invisible, of matter and spirit, of activity and that which is behind activity, conquers Nature and thus overcomes death. By work, by making the mind steady and by following the prescribed rules given in the Scriptures, a man gains wisdom. By the light of that wisdom he is able to perceive the Invisible Cause in all visible forms. Therefore the wise man sees Him in every manifested form. They who have a true conception of God are never separated from Him. They exist in Him and He in them.
    XV
    The face of Truth is hidden by a golden disk. O Pushan (Effulgent Being)! Uncover (Thy face) that I, the worshipper of Truth, may behold Thee.
    XVI
    </B>O Pushan! O Sun, sole traveller of the heavens, controller of all, son of Prajapati, withdraw Thy rays and gather up Thy burning effulgence. Now through Thy Grace I behold Thy blessed and glorious form. The Purusha (Effulgent Being) who dwells within Thee, I am He. Here the sun, who is the giver of all light, is used as the symbol of the Infinite, giver of all wisdom. The seeker after Truth prays to the Effulgent One to control His dazzling rays, that his eyes, no longer blinded by them, may behold the Truth. Having perceived It, he proclaims: “Now I see that that Effulgent Being and I are one and the same, and my delusion is destroyed.” By the light of Truth he is able to discriminate between the real and the unreal, and the knowledge thus gained convinces him that he is one with the Supreme; that there is no difference between himself and the Supreme Truth; or as Christ said, “I and my Father are one.”
    XVII
    May my life–breath go to the all–pervading and immortal Prana, and let this body be burned to ashes. Om! O mind, remember thy deeds! O mind, remember, remember thy deeds! Remember! Seek not fleeting results as the reward of thy actions, O mind! Strive only for the Imperishable. This Mantram or text is often chanted at the hour of death to remind one of the perishable nature of the body and the eternal nature of the Soul. When the clear vision of the distinction between the mortal body and the immortal Soul dawns in the heart, then all craving for physical pleasure or material possession drops away; and one can say, let the body be burned to ashes that the Soul may attain its freedom; for death is nothing more than the casting–off of a worn–out garment.
    XVIII
    O Agni (Bright Being)! Lead us to blessedness by the good path. O Lord! Thou knowest all our deeds, remove all evil and delusion from us. To Thee we offer our prostrations and supplications again and again.
    Here ends this Upanishad
     
    This Upanishad is called Isa–Vasya Upanishad, that which gives Brahma–Vidya or knowledge of the All–pervading Deity. The dominant thought running through it is that we cannot enjoy life or realize true happiness unless we consciously “cover” all with the Omnipresent Lord. If we are not fully conscious of that which sustains our life, how can we live wisely and perform our duties? Whatever we see, movable or immovable, good or bad, it is all “That.” We must not divide our conception of the universe; for in dividing it, we have only fragmentary knowledge and we thus limit ourselves.
    He who sees all beings in his Self and his Self in all beings, he never suffers; because when he sees all creatures within his true Self, then jealousy, grief and hatred vanish. He alone can love. That AH–pervading One is self– effulgent, birthless, deathless, pure, untainted by sin and sorrow. Knowing this, he becomes free from the bondage of matter and transcends death. Transcending death means realizing the difference between body and Soul and identifying oneself with the Soul. When we actually behold the undecaying Soul within us and realize our true nature, we no longer identify ourself with the body which dies and we do not die with the body.
    Self–knowledge has always been the theme of the Sages; and the Upanishads deal especially with the knowledge of the Self and also with the knowledge of God, because there is no difference between the Self and God. They are one and the same. That which comes out of the Infinite Whole must also be infinite; hence the Self is infinite. That is the ocean, we are the drops. So long as the drop remains separate from the ocean, it is small and weak; but when it is one with the ocean, then it has all the strength of the ocean. Similarly, so long as man believes himself to be separate from the Whole, he is helpless; but when he identifies himself with It, then he transcends all weakness and partakes of Its omnipotent qualities.
     
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All I have read is the Isha Upanishad.

I have read some of the Upanishads as well. I was referring to a more modern book by Nicolas Notovich, called The Lost Years of Jesus. I think you would enjoy the read.

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All I have read is the Isha Upanishad.

I have read some of the Upanishads as well. I was referring to a more modern book by Nicolas Notovich, called The Lost Years of Jesus. I think you would enjoy the read.

 

I checked it our on Wikipedia .... I'll have to pick up a copy at the Library...

I am inclined to believe that the shepherds (wool merchants) travelling back and forth between India and Judea shared their knowledge. .... the Gospel of Thomas may have been written as early as 50 Ad - originally in Aramaic. And there is an area in India where St Thomas may have been and there is a group of Nasrani's (Nazarenes) that travelled back and forth. Kerala - Syrian Malabar Nasrani.

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don't think of him or his opinions to be the traditional evangelical Christian stuff.

Yes ... I noticed this early on Hans and find his views very interesting

 

Mmm, me too. He reminds me of the spiritual folk in my community, my circle...but perhaps better read.

 

Phanta

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The arguing over whether or not something is or isn't as concerning the ambiguity of the bible is quite the crap-shoot. Spinoza, while you may very well believe you're imparting life altering knowledge to everyone, it really doesn't make any sense. For example lets take this "god is everything" spiel you're trying to cram down everyone's throats. Okay for example, a beautiful rose, I could see how you would call it apart of god, this is assuming loving "god" exists, a wonderful artist of life and entrepreneur of making a real SIMs game out of his clay toys. So then, if everything is god, then the rapist fucking that girl in a dark alley way is also "god", that innocent person being beheaded, the people doing the beheading are "god", the action itself of beheading and rape are "god". That whole love your neighbor and god is a cop-out, its a suspension of reason and rational inquiry into what "god" is really supposed to be. If godliness exists then spinoza, in everything, then all the horrific acts anyone can perpetrate are "god", not just the good. So while you're hunching over your keyboard spamming "god" is love, well god is also hate, "god" is murder, "god" is rape, god is the psychopath keeping that person in the basement for years, "god" is the tragic car wreck or the freak accident that killed someones deeply loved family member. I am going to have to agree with Donna when she said you need to man up, your wishful thinking feel good bullshit is just another penny chucked into a well of lies, its like cigarettes, you know they're going to kill you and deprive you of a comfortable life but people do it anyway because it makes them "feel good". So please, roll your yourself a big fatty of tobacco and smoke it, repeat it a thousand times, when you get cancer I hope you can call that "god" too. Fuck your pseudo philosophic senseless bullshit.

 

The only hope we have is within REAL knowledge, the kind that can cure disease, build marvelous machines, produce food for everyone, connect the whole world through the "web". Yes, this sounds harsh, you don't want to hear it, you don't want to believe it, but this is the reality we live in, there is no fantasy feel good, it really pisses me off when someone tries to rationalize how awful and often times pointless things can be through feel good make believe, give me a heavy dose of reality and keep the bullshit for yourself.

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