Question For The Christians

[Deva]

The arguing over whether or not something is or isn't as concerning the ambiguity of the bible is quite the crap-shoot. Spinoza, while you may very well believe you're imparting life altering knowledge to everyone, it really doesn't make any sense. For example lets take this "god is everything" spiel you're trying to cram down everyone's throats. Okay for example, a beautiful rose, I could see how you would call it apart of god, this is assuming loving "god" exists....

 

 

I don't think Spinoza is expressing a "loving god".

 

Spinoza has simply defined the word "god" differently than you do.

 

I wonder what has happened to turn you so bitter towards life as you seem to express in this post.

[Guest Spinoza]

Xerces....

 

 

We have free will, so we can create or destroy, we can choose to Love or to Hate, but as soon as we realize that everything is One we choose to create and to Love.

 

The only way a man can destroy or hate things is when he sees himself as separate from those other things.

 

This is evolution also. Don't worry, we are evolving.

Eventually everybody returns and understands that everything is One. It may take many lifetimes but eventually we come to understand and see the Universe and everything the Way it really is.

 

One.

[Antlerman]

Xerces....

 

 

We have free will, so we can create or destroy, we can choose to Love or to Hate, but as soon as we realize that everything is One we choose to create and to Love.

 

The only way a man can destroy or hate things is when he sees himself as separate from those other things.

 

This is evolution also. Don't worry, we are evolving.

Eventually everybody returns and understands that everything is One. It may take many lifetimes but eventually we come to understand and see the Universe and everything the Way it really is.

 

One.

You're not so crazy Spinoza. You will eventually become clearer on these things, but you do see it essentially.

 

 

To Xerxes, not everything that people see as higher than ourselves, something we aspire to, looks, smells, and acts like that tribal sort of god you reject (as well as do I!). It's about letting go of our old childhood friends and growing up. You've already done that, and whatever works for you is something worthwhile and should be explored and embraced for you. I'd hope at some point you can see that the discussion is much, much broader than what the Christian defines. It is. Believe me. Spinoza is likewise stretching his wings, and even if it seems nonsense on one level, in reality, it is doing nothing different than yourself, or me.

 

Peace. It's something we all seek beyond our old captors. Agreed?

[DesertBob]

I wonder what has happened to turn you so bitter towards life as you seem to express in this post.

Maybe life happened to him.

[DesertBob]

You're not so crazy Spinoza. You will eventually become clearer on these things, but you do see it essentially.

Methinks you are right. I think he's just more willing than you or I to live within the old forms such as Catholicism. Personally I don't have the energy or interest to work at redefining the heck out of my evangelical roots so that I can be an evangelical without really being one. It's much simpler to just chuck it and move on.

 

But to each their own.

[Mister Pappy]

The thing I hate about Christianity isn't that they believe something different than I do. It is because they think that I should believe it too, and that they have the right to look down on me if I do not. I am finding that this hate filled emotion, which I typically hold in reserve for those handfuls of idiot religious zealots who cross my path in life, is just as easily felt toward other idealists who refuse to simply let people be who they are and discuss ideas in peace. It makes no sense to expect the world to share your views. To hold to such expectations puts your "religion or lack thereof" in the exact same category as that which you claim to despise. What a waste it is of a fine brain to become an Atheist, Agnostic, or Freethinker of any kind and to remain still in possession of a Christian attitude.

[Antlerman]

You're not so crazy Spinoza. You will eventually become clearer on these things, but you do see it essentially.

Methinks you are right. I think he's just more willing than you or I to live within the old forms such as Catholicism. Personally I don't have the energy or interest to work at redefining the heck out of my evangelical roots so that I can be an evangelical without really being one. It's much simpler to just chuck it and move on.

 

But to each their own.

You always make me smile Bob. We share the same heart, yet in a yin and yang sort of way.

 

I would say Spinoza's "Willingness" is more about the vocabulary. With respect to him, he is as you say trying to redefine things. I see what is needed is more an entire shift that that transforms it beyond that left or right sort of discussion. A new paradigm altogether.

 

Anyway, I'm sleepy. I need to rest.

[DesertBob]

I see what is needed is more an entire shift that transforms it beyond that left or right sort of discussion. A new paradigm altogether.

In software, we love new paradigms. Except that they never are. New, I mean. It's always just marketing-speak.

 

So I prefer to think of it in different terms: we need a slightly different way of seeing things. In my experience, the huge shifts in my consciousness are huge only in their effects, not so much in their differentness. In other words after all the hoo-raw dies down I find that I didn't change very much at all -- but what little I changed, I had been resisting mightily. Or put another way, I think differently today about only a few key things compared to, say, 20 years ago ... yet my attitudes, habits, and expectations have undergone seismic change because of those few things.

 

There's an 18 year old in my household right now who really only needs to understand one little thing: it's okay to be less than perfect. That's not really a big thing, and it's only one thing. But in his case, it's everything, because until he lets go of perfection, everything else is piling up, waiting to get past that roadblock.

 

Come to think of it ... everything that has ever held me back in life has been rigidity of thought, in one form or another.

 

Now *I'm* tired ;-) To bed with me ...

 

--Bob

[Darklady]

The thing I hate about Christianity isn't that they believe something different than I do. It is because they think that I should believe it too, and that they have the right to look down on me if I do not. I am finding that this hate filled emotion, which I typically hold in reserve for those handfuls of idiot religious zealots who cross my path in life, is just as easily felt toward other idealists who refuse to simply let people be who they are and discuss ideas in peace. It makes no sense to expect the world to share your views. To hold to such expectations puts your "religion or lack thereof" in the exact same category as that which you claim to despise. What a waste it is of a fine brain to become an Atheist, Agnostic, or Freethinker of any kind and to remain still in possession of a Christian attitude.

 

I agree with your sentiment here Mr Pappy, forcing ones ideology on others is the mark of a zealot regardless of the ideology. But i go further in my anger against christianity, in that I believe it is a force of evil in the world, and has resulted in much harm and anguish and pain to many people.

 

I am not saying this to cause any arguments with our resident xians here, this is truly how I feel towards it, and I could bring out many stories, histories, and examples to prove my point, but these are well known and and not really the point today. I cannot stay quiet about the evil(think hatred, murder, genocide etc) I think religion brings to the world, and will no longer do so.

[Phanta]

The thing I hate about Christianity isn't that they believe something different than I do. It is because they think that I should believe it too, and that they have the right to look down on me if I do not. I am finding that this hate filled emotion, which I typically hold in reserve for those handfuls of idiot religious zealots who cross my path in life, is just as easily felt toward other idealists who refuse to simply let people be who they are and discuss ideas in peace. It makes no sense to expect the world to share your views. To hold to such expectations puts your "religion or lack thereof" in the exact same category as that which you claim to despise. What a waste it is of a fine brain to become an Atheist, Agnostic, or Freethinker of any kind and to remain still in possession of a Christian attitude.

 

Boy that is a hard lesson to learn. Speaking personally.

 

Phanta

[Deva]

I wonder what has happened to turn you so bitter towards life as you seem to express in this post.

Maybe life happened to him.

 

Actually, Xerces need not answer that, I just read his Testimony.

 

You know, Bob, its possible to go through a lot of living and have a lot of bad stuff thrown your direction and not become embittered. Then again its also true that some have a lot more bad stuff than others and there are also degrees of sensitivity. Saying "life happened" is not saying much.

[Guest Spinoza]

Answer to your question :

 

All Jews go to heaven, and so does everyone else.

 

http://money.cnn.com...arity/index.htm

 

Deut 7:6-7

[DesertBob]

Maybe life happened to him.

You know, Bob, its possible to go through a lot of living and have a lot of bad stuff thrown your direction and not become embittered. Then again its also true that some have a lot more bad stuff than others and there are also degrees of sensitivity.

Exactly.

Saying "life happened" is not saying much.

And at the same time, it says everything you just said above.

 

I wasn't implying that life sucks and everyone would be bitter if they thought about it for two seconds -- only that life is difficult and it's easy to have compassion for bitterness in others.

 

As for Xerxes, I'm not certain that what he was exhibiting was even necessarily bitterness. Sometimes we have to talk straight to ourselves to compensate for the pull of old attachments, and to fully cut our ties to them. We treat them as enemies at first ... with time and perspective that need fades, assuming we don't form a new attachment to our anger.

 

Anger is a tool, used correctly.

[Guest Spinoza]

Regarding the original Posted Question

 

Anne Frank Is with God .....

 

I believe in God, but not as one thing, not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us.

I believe that what Jesus and Mohammed and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong.

John Lennon

 

 

[Xerces]

It has nothing to do with being bitter towards life, the central point of my post was that of a brutal naturalistic way of viewing the world, basically take reality, subtract all the supernatural claims people have made about it, and that's how I view life. The reason for the anger is because I get livid when people try to rationalize it as apart of some cosmic fantasy, all the pain and chaos doesn't beg me to run to a fantasy story it makes me want to embrace it for what it really is and how we can overcome this chaos through scientific knowledge not ancient hocus pocus.

 

So, I have NO problem with people wanting to cling to something supernatural for their view regarding our existence, but don't go around telling people about it as if they give a shit, which is what spinoza does, there are places for that, not every thread you can think of to spout it in.

 

Further even, if he goes somewhere to share his ideas, there should be no out cry when he is being challenged about his views, he can defend himself.

[DesertBob]

The reason for the anger is because I get livid when people try to rationalize it as apart of some cosmic fantasy, all the pain and chaos doesn't beg me to run to a fantasy story it makes me want to embrace it for what it really is and how we can overcome this chaos through scientific knowledge not ancient hocus pocus.

The only difference of opinion I have with you on that score is that I don't see science as saving the world exactly either. Scientific solutions tend not to be applied holistically, in an integrated fashion -- they tend to be applied in isolation, as if only one variable can be tampered with, without side effects. Also, there's a tendency to carry reductionism farther than it really seems able to sustain the problem.

 

In other words I see empiricism as the opposite extreme from mysticism, equally out of balance. I prefer to leave some space to allow some form of transcendence, the divine, wonder, whatever you want to call it -- and for humility. To leave some space for intuition and feeling. Those things tend to go wanting when we 100% dismiss what the ancients were trying to address as "hocus pocus" and 100% uncritically embrace empiricism as the total explanation for and solution to everything.

So, I have NO problem with people wanting to cling to something supernatural for their view regarding our existence, but don't go around telling people about it as if they give a shit, which is what spinoza does, there are places for that, not every thread you can think of to spout it in.

Spinoza is not unusual ... he's like everyone in love for the first time, he wants to shout it from the housetops. Eventually he'll figure out that he hasn't found the silver bullet to life, and that even if he has, most people aren't ready to receive it.

Further even, if he goes somewhere to share his ideas, there should be no outcry when he is being challenged about his views, he can defend himself.

I think he deserves to be defended from excessive heavy handedness or unkindness, same as anyone. Certainly, though, his ideas should be subject to question like anyone's -- just not to ridicule.

 

I know that some people feel that things that are ridiculOUS can and should be rdiculED. To a point, I agree, but you always have to ask, to what purpose? If the person is unable to see anything other than what they know and can accept, then all you're doing is sporting with them to make yourself feel better. I can push someone on purpose at times as well as the next person, to see if it will shock them out of their rigid thinking about something, but once I see that I'm not getting through, I stop, because it serves no useful purpose to just keep flogging it, as if doing more of something that's ineffective will suddenly be effective.

[Antlerman]

So, I have NO problem with people wanting to cling to something supernatural for their view regarding our existence, but don't go around telling people about it as if they give a shit, which is what spinoza does, there are places for that, not every thread you can think of to spout it in.

 

Further even, if he goes somewhere to share his ideas, there should be no out cry when he is being challenged about his views, he can defend himself.

I agree and respect this.

[Guest Spinoza]

So, I have NO problem with people wanting to cling to something supernatural for their view regarding our existence, but don't go around telling people about it as if they give a shit, which is what spinoza does, there are places for that, not every thread you can think of to spout it in.

 

Further even, if he goes somewhere to share his ideas, there should be no out cry when he is being challenged about his views, he can defend himself.

I agree and respect this.

 

Me too.

[Mister Pappy]

don't go around telling people about it as if they give a shit, which is what spinoza does, there are places for that, not every thread you can think of to spout it in.

Some people do give a shit. Do you pretend to speak for everyone here, on the planet, in your household, in the room with you at this moment, or simply just the ONE - yourself? Not everyone thinks like you or holds to your views. There are no rules, that I am aware of, to keep anyone from sharing whatever views they hold here. How is it that because YOU disagree with someone, it is inappropriate for them to express themselves and their thoughts?

 

 

Further even, if he goes somewhere to share his ideas, there should be no out cry when he is being challenged about his views, he can defend himself.

There should be no out cry .... is this your first commandment X? There shall therefore be no out cries amongst ye - thus saith Xerces! Are we now all suppose to follow this new rule you have imposed upon us all because of your own personal belief? Do you see how your own views are just as, if not more so, restrictive than the views which you say you oppose? You cannot make me feel like you do simply because you want me to, and you cannot make me accept the rules which you would like to impose upon me to silence the expression of my thoughts. These are the tenants of Christianity which have bestowed upon it, such an horrific reputation. I expected more from you. This is very disappointing.

[Mister Pappy]

So, I have NO problem with people wanting to cling to something supernatural for their view regarding our existence, but don't go around telling people about it as if they give a shit, which is what spinoza does, there are places for that, not every thread you can think of to spout it in.

 

Further even, if he goes somewhere to share his ideas, there should be no out cry when he is being challenged about his views, he can defend himself.

I agree and respect this.

I cannot respect the notion that I should sit in silence ON A DISCUSSION FORUM while conversation that I totally disagree with goes on around me, and this ..... simply because the conversation was not directed at me specifically. No ... I do not respect being told to stay out of it. I do not think Spinoza needs defending, and I am not defending him. He seems to be well equipped to do that for himself. I am defending my own position / views of and in the conversation.

[Mister Pappy]

It seems odd to me when anyone personally declares or a third party indicates respect for a statement that suggests that "It is okay for me to express my point of view - whether anyone gives a shit or not, but it is not okay for someone who holds a view that I am not fond of to express their view because I do not give a shit." If this is what this site is about, I have no desire to be a participant.

[Xerces]

There should be no out cry .... is this your first commandment X? There shall therefore be no out cries amongst ye - thus saith Xerces! Are we now all suppose to follow this new rule you have imposed upon us all because of your own personal belief? Do you see how your own views are just as, if not more so, restrictive than the views which you say you oppose? You cannot make me feel like you do simply because you want me to, and you cannot make me accept the rules which you would like to impose upon me to silence the expression of those views. These are the tenants of Christianity which have righteously bestowed upon it with such an horrific reputation. I expected more from you. This is very disappointing.

 

I'm not here to impress, thats my second commandment. First of all I'm not imposing anything, spinoza is free to express himself, do I have to willingly put up with it on a forum I go to to get AWAY from religious nuts?, it is my fucking business and I will speak to him however I want because he willing has made a profile and chosen to come on Ex-C turf to talk about jesus and mohammed like they're people we should exemplify, saying we're all gods, that jesus had balls to call himself god, stupid fucking shit like that, and he expects to get a warm friendly welcome? Ontop of that the way he talks pompously, using caps sometimes and talking as if he is wiser because he somehow has stumbled upon the gold mine of human consciousness by believing in all religions.

 

Whatever man I don't have time for this, I would elaborate more but I believe firmly that people know what I think of spinoza and I won't apologize for it.

 

Oh and I take it as a personal insult that you compare me to religious fundamentalists, so FUCK you pappy.

[DesertBob]

... spinoza is free to express himself, do I have to willingly put up with it on a forum I go to to get AWAY from religious nuts?

This particular section of the forum is not a place to "get away from religious nuts", it's a place to engage with them.

 

Although we pull no reasonable punches in that engagement, I think that people who cannot tolerate religious people enough to be civil to them should probably avoid the Lion's Den as well as probably The Arena and maybe even Ex-Christian Theism or Spirituality, depending on your proclivities.

 

Personally, most of the "tolerating" I have to do in this space is not with believers so much as with ragers, whether they are believers or not. I mostly leave it alone because I recognize it's a place these folks are at and I can't admonish them out of it; blaming and shaming are no more effective than bludgeoning.

... it is my fucking business and I will speak to him however I want because he willing has made a profile and chosen to come on Ex-C turf to talk about jesus and mohammed like they're people we should exemplify, saying we're all gods, that jesus had balls to call himself god, stupid fucking shit like that, and he expects to get a warm friendly welcome?

I guess it comes down to how you go about "telling it like it is". I think it's entirely possible to tell someone you disagree with them and think they are not dealing in reality without resorting to invective. Many of us do it all the time.

On top of that the way he talks pompously, using caps sometimes and talking as if he is wiser because he somehow has stumbled upon the gold mine of human consciousness by believing in all religions.

Yes, I agree, for all his eclecticism, he still suffers from True Believeritis. This angers you, it simply amuses me. I wish you could recognize that life eventually will beat it out of him, you don't really need to provide the beating.

 

I live in a household with bright young people about your age and one thing it's hard for such people to realize is that you can be precocious, wise beyond your years even, but one thing you can't possibly have at your age is perspective. I am not going to waste my breath telling you to ease off and be more Zen about all this because you're just not capable of it at this point in your life. However, try to realize that hosing everything down with a blowtorch is not a very nuanced approach and basically accomplishes, oh, maybe 0.5% more result for roughly 200% more energy expenditure. And that's being charitable because it doesn't take into account collateral damage.

 

As much as possible, it's good to have light rather than just heat. That's all I'm saying. If you don't like Spiniza's crusading, then don't do your own version of it.

[Mister Pappy]

Oh and I take it as a personal insult that you compare me to religious fundamentalists

You should ... it was. I hope some day you will grow out of it. You are a fine young man, as far as I can tell. The sooner you accept that everyone isn't going to see it your way, the happier you will be. Good luck with that.

 

 

so FUCK you pappy.

Have you ever given consideration to what this statement means? Does it mean anything? If so, what?

 

 

[Mister Pappy]

If you don't like Spiniza's crusading, then don't do your own version of it.

+1 ... Well said Bob ...