Flaws in Christian Salvation design

[scotter]

Original Sin – unconditional, one was born with it, and the consequence is eternal hell fire

 

Salvation – conditional, one has to accept Jesus

 

An unconditional, intrinsic i.e. not-by-choice, situation with an unconditional, infinite consequence and penalty could only be resolved by a conditional interaction of choice and offer.

 

=> this unconditional element is totally dependent on a conditional element

 

=> the conditional finite element** is the sole critical factor of the other unconditional and infinite element

 

** commentary: this finite element is - man makes a finite choice in his finite lifespan. The choice is finite because information (Heaven, Hell, God, Jesus, Bible…..) provided to him is limited (finite), and man’s intelligence is finite (made this way by (Bible) God, if you are a Christian). <- side dish remark: Based on man’s intelligence is finite, Pascal designed a wager-theory so man can play safe.

 

And I am simply listing them, not with a rhetorical suggestive tone.

 

=> i.e. the design of this interaction of offer and acceptance (of salvation, actually you can try substitute with anything) is seriously flawed.

 

=> The core-center of Christian theology is seriously flawed.

 

[We put aside "adjectives" from both camps. It is a pure non-spiritually associated inquiry.

Believer camp: God loves the world and send His Son to die for the sins of the world…..

Anti-camp: God is a murderer, God is a tyrant…..

stuff like that.

And please don’t throw and mix in Paul’s Romans 1:19-20. --- that is another philosophical thread/topic]

 

=> hardcore Christians, do you see the problem with Christian theology now?

 

Yet, I am more convicted to say that Christian theology was designed by man.

 

.

[Amanda]

Original Sin – unconditional, one was born with it, and the consequence is eternal hell fire

 

Salvation – conditional, one has to accept Jesus .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hello Scotter! That is one of the biggest points that led me to believe in universal salvation!

 

Ro 5:18

Therefore * * as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

The "even so" is the same as 'equally so'. The same way we got the condemnation is the same way we get salvation. Both are universal and unconditional, IMO. It does seem that one does have to accept the Christ nature, but that is coming naturally too.

 

As for the 'original sin'. I don't believe that is presented in the Bible like that. IF there were an 'original sin', IMO, it would be not knowing who we are. Eve was the first, not knowing we are in the likeness and image of God. (She wanted to be like God, knowing good and evil) It is said in the NT that we too are gods.

[scotter]

Hi Amanda,

 

Thank you for the feedback.

 

Basically I was referring to the general evangelical theology.

I hope more Christians believe like you do.

[Razor]

Also do not forget that God will eventualy reveal himself to all, and every knee shall bend at the sound of the name of Jesus.

 

There will no longer be such a person as an unbeliever then.

Not possible, when confronted with the truth.

 

Peace

[scotter]

Thanks Razor. Good to have you on board adding to the diversity of voices.

And thanks Serenity.

 

That we see similarities and differences between Razor and Amanda.

 

Similarity is salvation for all - universal salvation.

 

Difference is Razor's take seems to be Jesus' 2nd Coming is physical (correct me Razor); Amanda's belief is that Jesus returns in each and everyone's heart in his conscience.

 

Would be a learning experience for me if Razor and Amanda exchange further opinions with each other.

[Ouroboros]

Good topic, Scotter.

 

Consider this little story

 

A man and a wife are expecting a child, but she is kidnapped and taken to another country, where she gives birth.

 

She is killed in child birth, and the kids grow up not knowing about his father and the original country he came from.

 

The man finds out one day that his son is alive, and what would he do?

 

A normal person, would most likely go where his son is, and present himself and try to get his son back.

 

But would he send someone else, a messenger, to go there and threaten the son, that if he doesn't believe the message he will be killed?

 

It could be understood if the father sends a messenger, but only out of the reason of inability to go himself. So if God sent a messenger instead of going to each of us, individually and personally, then he's incapable or indifferent to come personally.

 

But is it right that God would send a messenger, with a message that you only can be his son (which you are legally by birth anyway), if you bow down and praise him, or you will get punished? That is not a sign of a loving father, but a angry and greedy despot.

 

Were we not supposed to have been created to God's images in Eden? Were we not made to be "sons" of God from the beginning, and one of our ancestor broke a command, but we are paying for it? The relationship between A&E and God was not the peasant to the dictator, but a father/son relationship. We might have lost it, but why is God suddenly a king, and we are unworthy?

[Japedo]

Also do not forget that God will eventualy reveal himself to all, and every knee shall bend at the sound of the name of Jesus.

 

There will no longer be such a person as an unbeliever then.

Not possible, when confronted with the truth.

 

Peace

 

And what happens to those of us who Refuse to Bow? Will Free will be revoked at the sound of the supposed name of your big scary god? Eventually is nothing more then a CYA word you realize. You have zero facts or evidence to back up that claim that 1) A god exists or 2) He will eventually reveal himself to all.

 

There comes a time when the word eventually is no longer is believed by thinking people. Repeating some small sentence out of a book compiled by worshiped religious leaders doesn't make it the truth.

[Celsus]

The flaw in Christian Salvic theory is the Bible god cannot in fact exist. Any and all argumants about doctrine are thus moot.

[SkepticOfBible]

Hello Scotter! That is one of the biggest points that led me to believe in universal salvation!

 

Ro 5:18

Therefore * * as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

The "even so" is the same as 'equally so'. The same way we got the condemnation is the same way we get salvation. Both are universal and unconditional, IMO. It does seem that one does have to accept the Christ nature, but that is coming naturally too.

 

As for the 'original sin'. I don't believe that is presented in the Bible like that. IF there were an 'original sin', IMO, it would be not knowing who we are. Eve was the first, not knowing we are in the likeness and image of God. (She wanted to be like God, knowing good and evil) It is said in the NT that we too are gods. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The concept of Universal Salvation only comes at the expense of ignoring other verses in the NT.

 

Matt 12:30

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. (Gee Now I know wher President Bush gets his speech from )

 

Mark 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

Jesus in his glorified Final Solution, will send out his army of drones to cleanse the world of anything that Jesus deems or defines as "wicked".

Naturally, unbelievers will be exterminated along with all the other unworthy human "weeds".

 

Matt 13:40-42

As therefore the tares(weeds) are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

Heb 2:3

How shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him

 

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

 

Chick's Take on Salvation

 

It is quite clear from the above verses, believe in christ and live or else suffer un eternal pain.

[Amanda]

The flaw in Christian Salvic theory is the Bible god cannot in fact exist. Any and all argumants about doctrine are thus moot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Bruce!

 

I'm curious to know, wouldn't that depend on how one ultimately defines "God"?

 

[Abiyoyo]

Original Sin – unconditional, one was born with it, and the consequence is eternal hell fire

 

Salvation – conditional, one has to accept Jesus

 

An unconditional, intrinsic i.e. not-by-choice, situation with an unconditional, infinite consequence and penalty could only be resolved by a conditional interaction of choice and offer. 

 

=> this unconditional element is totally dependent on a conditional element

 

=> the conditional finite element** is the sole critical factor of the other unconditional and infinite element

 

** commentary: this finite element is - man makes a finite choice in his finite lifespan. The choice is finite because information (Heaven, Hell, God, Jesus, Bible…..) provided to him is limited (finite), and man’s intelligence is finite (made this way by (Bible) God, if you are a Christian). <- side dish remark: Based on man’s intelligence is finite, Pascal designed a wager-theory so man can play safe.

 

And I am simply listing them, not with a rhetorical suggestive tone.

 

=> i.e. the design of this interaction of offer and acceptance (of salvation, actually you can try substitute with anything) is seriously flawed.

 

=> The core-center of Christian theology is seriously flawed.

 

[We put aside "adjectives" from both camps. It is a pure non-spiritually associated inquiry.

Believer camp: God loves the world and send His Son to die for the sins of the world…..

Anti-camp: God is a murderer, God is a tyrant…..

stuff like that.

And please don’t throw and mix in Paul’s Romans 1:19-20. --- that is another philosophical thread/topic]

 

=> hardcore Christians, do you see the problem with Christian theology now?

 

Yet, I am more convicted to say that Christian theology was designed by man.

 

.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

The crazy thing is that your right. Salvation is man made. Redemption is not though. There is a difference from the Christians that have experienced Salvation from this worlds perspective, and those that have been redeemed and are in debt to God.

 

The reason we reason is because of the reasoning of us. If we strip away everthing in life and leave you and what we havent made with our own hands, we have what reasoning cant explain.

[Amanda]

Hello Pritish!

The concept of Universal Salvation only comes at the expense of ignoring other verses in the NT.

 

Matt 12:30

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not forever...

Mark 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Damned means 'judged'. If one is respectful to self and others, no worry of judgement.

Jesus in his glorified Final Solution, will send out his army of drones to cleanse the world of anything that Jesus deems or defines as "wicked".

Naturally, unbelievers will be exterminated along with all the other unworthy human "weeds".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, that is not naturally the case, IMO. There are wheat and tares in each of us. Those tares in EVERY person will be removed, that's all.

Matt 13:40-42

As therefore the tares(weeds) are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is in EVERY person. No one is ALL wheat, nor ALL tares. Fire is just the natural repercussions of one's disrespectful actions. If you cheat, steal, ridicule others, then there are natural repercussions for that... usually leading to wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Heb 2:3

How shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's right, no one will ignore salvation... because ALL will get it.

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rejecting the Christ nature within us has natural negative repercussions. They do it to themselves by the choices they make. IMHO. Eventually, everyone will accept these teachings of Christ.

It is quite clear from the above verses, believe in christ and live or else suffer un eternal pain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quite clear?

[SkepticOfBible]

Hello Pritish!

 

Mark 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Damned means 'judged'. If one is respectful to self and others, no worry of judgement.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Damned also means

 

To condemn to everlasting punishment or a similar fate; doom.

 

Meaning of Damned

 

It may mean judgement, but a very adverse one.

 

Matt 13:40-42

As therefore the tares(weeds) are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

No, that is not naturally the case, IMO. There are wheat and tares in each of us. Those tares in EVERY person will be removed, that's all.

 

That is in EVERY person. No one is ALL wheat, nor ALL tares. Fire is just the natural repercussions of one's disrespectful actions. If you cheat, steal, ridicule others, then there are natural repercussions for that... usually leading to wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

Leads to Wailing and Gnashing in fire furnace? O come on it clearly talks about judgement.

 

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

 

Rejecting the Christ nature within us has natural negative repercussions. They do it to themselves by the choices they make. IMHO. Eventually, everyone will accept these teachings of Christ.

 

Nowhere does it talk about natural negative repercussion. It is a clear case reward and punishment. Then how do you explain the wrath of god on the unbeliever.

 

I forgot to list other verses which indicate eternal torment. Note:These verses came from your own brethern. Not from me

 

Hell Doctrine At Carm.org

[

B]

Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment[/b]

Unquenchable Fire

     Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

 

Fiery Hell

     Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29,30.

 

Fiery Hell  

  Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9"And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

 

Eternal Fire

     Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

Eternal Punishment

     Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

     The word 'eternal' in both places is "aionios" which means 1)without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2)without beginning; 3)without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word 'punishment' is the word kolasis and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering - 'to punish, punishment.'"(5)

 

Eternal Fire

     Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

 

Lake of Fire

     Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

 

Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man

 

     In Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically, Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course, rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that will not be done either.

 

     Some say that this is a parable. However, if it is, it is unique because no other parable actually names a person. It isn't a story. It is history. It really happened. But many who believe in no consciousness after death will say it is still a parable. The question then is, if it is? What is it teaching? If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth. If it is a parable what does the consciousness after death symbolize? Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of course they are.

 

 

Conclusion

 

     Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.

 

Realities of Hell(Baptist Viewpoint)

 

The doctrine of hell is a concept promoted by mainstream christianity, and unfortunelately it is supported by the bible.

[Lunar Shadow]

Also do not forget that God will eventualy reveal himself to all, and every knee shall bend at the sound of the name of Jesus.

 

There will no longer be such a person as an unbeliever then.

Not possible, when confronted with the truth.

 

Peace

 

 

 

Does anyone here remember the Charlie Brown Halloween special about the Great Pumpkin??

 

The only reason I bring this up is because the story of the great pumpkin sounds just an outlandish and ridiculous as what is stated above.

 

Just an observation.

 

 

-Jester

[Celsus]

Hello Bruce!

 

I'm curious to know, wouldn't that depend on how one ultimately defines "God"?

 

 

 

The deity as described by the Tanakh, Qu'ran and Holy Bible cannot in fact exist, period.

[Amanda]

Hello Pritish!

It may mean judgement, but a very adverse one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Adverse only to the direspectful aspect of one's character, not the WHOLE person. If one 'steals', then one will continue to get the 'judgement' (natural repercussions) of that behavior till they don't do it any more.

Leads to Wailing and Gnashing in fire furnace?   O come on it clearly talks about judgement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, fire is judgement! Fire comes from a Greek word "pur" which we use today for cleansing intensely, hence our words of pure, purge, purify, purity, etc.

Why would 'God' go through all the trouble to purify someone and then throw them away! C'mon, my friend, who would do that?

Nowhere does it talk about natural negative repercussion. It is a clear case reward and punishment. Then how do you explain the wrath of god on the unbeliever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, reward for respectful/compassionate behavior and punishment for disrespectful/condemning behavior. The wrath of God is on ANYONE that engages in disrespect and lack of compassion, and this goes for those who believe it or not.

The doctrine of hell is a concept promoted by mainstream christianity, and unfortunelately it is supported by the bible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The war between heaven and hell is basically an internal state within us. The side that is winning is the side we are feeding the most. Fire and brimstone is a process that is purifying us, and brimstone is divine incense. That is us, IMO, that is 'burning' off our carnal/selfish nature leaving pure spirit form (smoke) that is a sweet smell to God.

 

Of course, all that is just my $.02 fwiw.

[Amanda]

The deity as described by the Tanakh, Qu'ran and Holy Bible cannot in fact exist, period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Bruce, respectfully, may I ask you what a short summary 'defining' this in the Holy Bible would be to you?

[Guest queen annie]

Where in the OT does it say that every knee will bow to Jesus? 

Isaiah 45:23

 

 

Matter of fact, other than the NT, where does it say that the Saviors name is "Jesus"?

It doesn't. Because it wasn't. There was no such thing as a 'j' back then anyway--leastways that's what I've heard more than a few times.

 

His name was Yehoshua (not 'Yeshua' as many tend to say)

It means 'Yod He Vau He Saves'

 

Yahweh tends to get a little upset when people bow down to anyone except him.

Who is Yahweh?

 

 

JK

 

I know who you mean.

Not the correct name, though.

[Celsus]

Bruce, respectfully, may I ask you what a short summary 'defining' this in the Holy Bible would be to you? 

 

 

Amanda,

 

The Tanakh, Qu'ran and Holy Bible all define the abrahamic deity with the omni-sttributes:

 

* Omniscient - all knowing perfectly

* Omnipotent - all powerful perfectly

* Omnibenevolent - all good

* Omnipresent - is everywhere at all times

 

Take just the first two attrubutes, they are mutually exclusive. A being cannot be omnisicent and simultaneously be omnipotent, for perfect knowledge of all (including the future) constrains the power to change. Thus like a square circle, an omniscient and omnipotent being cannot in fact exist.

 

Bruce

[Guest queen annie]

=> The core-center of Christian theology is seriously flawed.

I'd go so far as to say it is a fatal flaw.

 

Perhaps it is somehow related to this:

 

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

--Revelation 13:3 KJV

 

??

 

 

Yet, I am more convicted to say that Christian theology was designed by man.

 

That's been my suspicion all along. I'd bet lots on it being the truth.

 

Which could quite possibly bring the whole thing around to the point of identifying it as 'strong delusion' -- a lie long believed by most of the world (or at least Christendom):

 

--2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

 

From there it is but a short leap to suggest that perhaps the infamous 'image of the beast' (that many are on the eagle-eye look-out for at any time) is actually something that has been bowed down to by all those who are standing watch in anticipation for the big bad 'antichrist'.

 

A religion invented by man, that looks more like what man sees in the mirror than what we'd expect to see in an Almighty God.

 

Perversely, it might turn out that it is not the bible itself which is faulty, with the whole christianity thing revealing itself to be the very thing it declares as its enemy....and all those who feel sure they will be strong enough to resist the dreaded 'mark of the beast' have already been indelibly marked through their own failure to question what is clearly an illogical and nonsensical philosophy.

 

The bottom line would then reveal the truth to be that all of you who questioned the christian faith and found it wanting, and so then took leave of it, are actually counted in the scarce number of souls who did not receive the mark and did not insist on putting their faith and hope in a clever centuries old delusion powered by the reputation of a stolen name....

 

The final ironic yet perversely just twist to this plot is this:

Atheists are actually the 'elect' and the christians are really and truly the ones scheduled for a long stint of teeth gnashing and tongue gnawing!

 

 

And, in all honesty--I'm dead serious when I say these things.

 

Anyone up for making these prognostications a little more interesting with a small wager?

 

[Amanda]

Amanda,

 

The Tanakh, Qu'ran and Holy Bible all define the abrahamic deity with the omni-sttributes:

 

* Omniscient - all knowing perfectly

* Omnipotent - all powerful perfectly

* Omnibenevolent - all good

* Omnipresent - is everywhere at all times

 

Take just the first two attrubutes, they are mutually exclusive. A being cannot be omnisicent and simultaneously be omnipotent, for perfect knowledge of all (including the future) constrains the power to change. Thus like a square circle, an omniscient and omnipotent being cannot in fact exist.

 

Bruce

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you Bruce. That was a mind-expanding response for me.

 

Bruce, another question...

could it be possible,

IF all things were parts of "God",

but these parts not having co-consciousness of this...

would that then allow "God" to encompass those four characteristics

in regards to either individual components

and/or a totally collective aspect... in God 'being everything'?

 

[Ouroboros]

Thank you Bruce. That was a mind-expanding response for me.   

 

Bruce, another question...

could it be possible,

IF all things were parts of "God",

but these parts not having co-consciousness of this...

would that then allow "God" to encompass those four characteristics

in regards to either individual components

and/or a totally collective aspect... in God 'being everything'? 

 

Which way you ever try to resolve it, those traits are consistently contradictory.

Just the same way as saying a circle is square and a square is round.

The definitions repel each other.

[daniel_1012]

Men are sinners, in NEED of a savior -- this need of a savior is just that, a need. Like we need water to survive, we need a savior. All men are guilty, as all men have need for things to survive. A man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." Without water we will die, without Jesus, who is the Word become man, we will die.

 

All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved -- We have a role in our own salvation, in the same we we play a roll getting on a plane and taking a trip, all expenses paid. We may have had no power to give ourselves the these gifts, but we had a roll in that we have freedom of choice. If those that call upon the name of the Lord are saved, I would say those that do not... will not be saved. This rules out universal salvation.

 

That savior is Jesus -- Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life, and none come to the father but by Him. Jesus is the fine paid for us, though we can pay that fine outselves if we choose.

 

God knows how to save men, and He is not willing that anyone should perish -- Keep in mind the latter choice from above. God is a gentleman, and offers us pardon... but He is a judge offering us a gift while not in the courtroom. He is offering his gift, but if we do not receive... when we go back to court, He will judge us according to the law we have broken.

 

I simply believe that God knows how to save men from hell, He is not willing that any man perish... and where there is a will, there is a way. We have a choice in this, God knows our hearts more than we can fathom, and all men who would allow God to save them, will be saved. That is my belief. Especially when that will is God's, there is a way.

[Kryten]

Men are sinners, in NEED of a savior -- this need of a savior is just that, a need.  Like we need water to survive, we need a savior.  All men are guilty, as all men have need for things to survive.  A man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."  Without water we will die, without Jesus, who is the Word become man, we will die.

 

All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved -- We have a role in our own salvation, in the same we we play a roll getting on a plane and taking a trip, all expenses paid.  We may have had no power to give ourselves the these gifts, but we had a roll in that we have freedom of choice.  If those that call upon the name of the Lord are saved, I would say those that do not... will not be saved.  This rules out universal salvation.

 

That savior is Jesus -- Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life, and none come to the father but by Him.  Jesus is the fine paid for us, though we can pay that fine outselves if we choose.

 

God knows how to save men, and He is not willing that anyone should perish -- Keep in mind the latter choice from above.  God is a gentleman, and offers us pardon... but He is a judge offering us a gift while not in the courtroom.  He is offering his gift, but if we do not receive... when we go back to court, He will judge us according to the law we have broken.

 

I simply believe that God knows how to save men from hell, He is not willing that any man perish... and where there is a will, there is a way.  We have a choice in this, God knows our hearts more than we can fathom, and all men who would allow God to save them, will be saved.  That is my belief.  Especially when that will is God's, there is a way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where to begin??

 

Okay, point #1: Explain why all men are born sinners. Why are we all sinners, and what did we do to deserve eternal punishment?

Where do the unborn, infants, and children go when they die?

 

Point #2: So Satan defeats Jesus. 99% of all humans born go to infinite torture because Adam and Eve, who did NOT KNOW the difference between good and evil UNTIL they ate from the tree, ate from the tree in the center of the garden that EVERYTHING therein God had pronounced good.

 

Point #3: Wasn't it Horus that was "the way, the truth, and the light" way before Jesus was conceived of? Maybe it was one of the others who were also called "the word", "the way", and were born of virgins on Dec 25th and who died and rose again. But you can think it was Jesus if you want.

 

Point #4: Uh, go back to point #2. If God really wanted to save people, and had the power and intelligence to do so, He probably could find a way. The God you worship is a weak and ignorant tyrant.

I WANT to save everyone, but I CAN'T!  They won't let me!  They don't believe my stories!!

 

I TRIED to get those guys to write an accurate account of My Son, but I couldn't get them to do it without a bunch of stupid mistakes!!  Me Dammit!  Now it'll be even HARDER to convince them I'm real.

 

I WANT to heal the sick, but I CAN'T-- there are unbelievers somewhere in the crowd!

 

I WANT to punish sinners in Las Vegas and Sweden, but I CAN'T!  I can't get a hurricane to reach those places!!

 

Blah blah blah, f'ing blah...

[SkepticOfBible]

Isaiah 45:23 (About Knees being bent)

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Isaiah 45:21

21 Declare what is to be, present it—

let them take counsel together.

Who foretold this long ago,

who declared it from the distant past?

Was it not I, the LORD ?

And there is no God apart from me,

a righteous God and a Savior;

there is none but me.

 

22 "Turn to me and be saved,

all you ends of the earth;

for I am God, and there is no other.

 

23 By myself I have sworn,

my mouth has uttered in all integrity

a word that will not be revoked:

Before me every knee will bow;

by me every tongue will swear.

 

This isn't talking about Jesus. This is god of the OT which is speaking. As the verse explains it

 

And there is no God apart from me,

a righteous God and a Savior;

there is none but me.

 

There is no Jesus here. God alone is the saviour, note nor this mention that there is another person Jesus with him.