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Goodbye Jesus

Atheism and Pantheism


pug

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You are right I have no point at all (wouldn't dare would I?). I was just curious to know if your type of athesim could be a religion all by itself. No need book, no need doctrines.

 

Simply convince yourself that there's no god. Keep on the right side of the law. Be morally sound. What else.... ahhh just be a generally nice, decent human being i guess.

 

Can athesim be termed a religion in the 21st century?

 

Look, Pug, it doesn't take something like "conviction" for one to come to the conclusion that the Christian God™ doesn't exist. It's an honesty issue. That's all.

 

Also, "keeping on the right side of the law" isn't an issue for atheists either. You see, there really is a level of normalcy to be had where the keeping or breaking of the "law" never crosses ones mind. Whereas, when one turns to the Christian™ religion in order to be a "good" person, they give in to threats of punishment and hopes of reward in order to be a "good" person.

 

For some reason, you seem to be under the misunderstanding that atheism is inferior to your religion because they don't require these threats and hopes in order to be a genuinely good citizen, when in fact, it's quite the opposite.

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Well...pug, Atheism is just a belief system that does not contain a God or gods.

 

There are many atheistic belief systems available to choose from, some religious, some philosophical, some neither. 

 

I certainly count myself among the Assertive Atheists (Strong Atheism), which combats Theism as a rational belief system.

 

I am part of no group, though.

 

Pantheism is vague and undefined in regards to God.  It asserts that everything is a part of God, which is just a fallacy of Equivocation.

 

Hey Asi,

 

Thanks. Crystal clear. Short and sweet.

 

At least now I know Pantheism is another cooked up sham.

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His point, is that he has no point. And therefore, that is his point.

And you had to point that out? :grin:

 

D'ya got that?

btw Asi, you're forgetting your bold font tonight.  :Hmm:

He doesn't feel so bold tonight, he's chicken out...

 

 

Man, I'm in a pun-mood (instead of pug mood)

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Look, Pug, it doesn't take something like "conviction" for one to come to the conclusion that the Christian God doesn't exist. It's an honesty issue. That's all.

Yeah, yeah. I'm just being naughty (sarcastic?). The conclusion has to be convincing for you to be convinced, right?

 

Also, "keeping on the right side of the law" isn't an issue for atheists either. You see, there really is a level of normalcy to be had where the keeping or breaking of the "law" never crosses ones mind.

Errr yeah sweetie, this line of thought has been beaten to death. I'm quite clear of that concept by now, thank you.

 

Whereas, when one turns to the Christian religion in order to be a "good" person, they give in to threats of punishment and hopes of reward in order to be a "good" person.

Most of the christians I know do not covet the heaven reward or fear the burn in hell threats. To them, god's grace is enough.

 

Some of the ppl in my church are really gentle, old folks and illiterate! They do not give a fig, well even if they do, they can't. They do not have a clue about the stories in the holy bible. Rightly or wrongly, they receive the word through our pastors. Just simple faith in Jesus Christ, that's all.

 

Some of them have gone to church for up to 10 years without believing! Then they were touched. Yes, after faithfully attending church to listen and perhaps fellowship. Just the opposite of some of you folks. Call it brainwashing or whatever ~ from the moment they were baptised in the holy spirit... and some of the young uns (from toddlers to teenagers)... ummmm, ok i stop.

 

For some reason, you seem to be under the misunderstanding that atheism is inferior to your religion because they don't require these threats and hopes in order to be a genuinely good citizen, when in fact, it's quite the opposite.

Come on, the "my religion is better than yours" argument? Purleeeze. I did that when I was a Buddhist. [for example: My religion doesn't need a god, it's do-it-yourself. I meditate my way to be enlightened and to attain nirvana. If not this life time then i re-incarnate and attempt again. I don't want your xtianity religion, can't you see I'm a Buddhist?]

 

It's hard for me as it is being a baby born-again, who needs to be that fanatical type of xtian who struts in and arrogantly, patronisingly... spouting all the holier than thou thang, best religion in the world of all time. Convert or fry in hell. Believe you me I've met my fair share. Sheeessh. No thanks.

 

Simply faith in Jesus Christ. Use the Holy Bible as a guide. Do my best to be a loving, caring christian. His grace is good enough for me.

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Come on, the "my religion is better than yours" argument? Purleeeze. I did that when I was a Buddhist. [for example: My religion doesn't need a god, it's do-it-yourself. I meditate my way to be enlightened and to attain nirvana. If not this life time then i re-incarnate and attempt again. I don't want your xtianity religion, can't you see I'm a Buddhist?]

 

It's not a religion issue at all. Nobody needs a religion in order to be a good person. But, if you're part of a religion that teaches you that you are a bad person if you don't believe in it, then yes, I can see why religious people seem to think that atheists are bad people.

 

The fact is, people are people are people. One of the differences between an atheist and a believer is that you don't see atheists running around claiming that some sort of magical power makes them good people. And you don't see them running around claiming that a myth is absolute truth because, in all of their intellectual honesty, they just can't seem to find it within themselves to run around stating that serpents talk, the sun stops, people come back from the dead, sticks turn to snakes, water turns to wine, water turns to blood, the flood.... etc. as being true.

 

Like I said, it's an honesty issue. Nothing more.

 

And the atheists are hated for it. :lmao:

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It's not a religion issue at all. Nobody needs a religion in order to be a good person.

Didn't you just state in post #26 that i misunderstood... oh, never mind.

 

But, if you're part of a religion that teaches you that you are a bad person if you don't believe in it, then yes, I can see why religious people seem to think that atheists are bad people.

Firstly, and up to now, my pastors have never terrified me with this "you bad until you convert" crap. Perhaps, on your side of the pond they do it more. Here, i've seen it being practised too. But i steer away (fast, fast). We even have the infamous Jehovah's Witnesses here too.

 

Secondly, here in Asia any way, religious ppl do not think atheists are bad ppl. Free thinkers are tolerated. Hell, religion or no-religion is tolerated here a lotI. We are multi racial (like US) and multi religious.

 

However, in Malaysia, Islam is the official religion. The Malays (first race to settle in Malaysia, like your red indians) are first class citizens. Although I'm a Malaysian, my race is Chinese (migrants from China - my grand parents) ~ so second class citizen. So are the Indians (Indians were from India - some of them practice Hinduism, others Buddhism, yet others Christianity). And also the Eurasian race (mixed caucasian with chinese, malay, indian).

 

The fact is, people are people are people. One of the differences between an atheist and a believer is that you don't see atheists running around claiming that some sort of magical power makes them good people. And you don't see them running around claiming that a myth is absolute truth because, in all of their intellectual honesty, they just can't seem to find it within themselves to run around stating that serpents talk, the sun stops, people come back from the dead, sticks turn to snakes, water turns to wine, water turns to blood, the flood.... etc. as being true.

Hooray for intellectual honesty. All the stuff is recorded in that book. I can't do fig-all to it. Can pathetically i avoid the "absolute truth" for now?

 

Like I said, it's an honesty issue. Nothing more.

Yep, i do not see athesists running around calling xtians myth-believing, dishonest ppl and telling them they are only good because they are god fearing.

 

And the atheists are hated for it.  :lmao:

Perhaps in America. Not here in Malaysia.

 

Nobody gives a fig here. Except for the over zealous xtians trying to convert every body... except Muslims. Muslims are un-convertible. No Muslim can change his/her religion.

 

See? Aren't you all fortunate? At least you can dump xtianity. for Muslims, it's for life! But there are some underground Muslims who have converted. Very hush, hush. In our church we have Indonesian Muslims! But that's ok with the Malaysian government, they're not Malaysian Muslims. Fancy that?

 

A favourite target for xtian evanlegists are the Chinese ppl practising idol worshipping. They have lots of deities. Some of it is even mixed into Buddhism. Then there're the japanese religions too. Fertile ground to harvest souls.

 

Usual war cry: "Your parents pray to the devil!" "Convert or go to hell!"

 

But the Chinese religions have their hell too. So no fear.

 

I also know some Chinese who were born into christian families. Some remained nominal, robot xtians. Some woke up/born again later in life.

 

Need to know more... just ask.

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Yeah, yeah. I'm just being naughty (sarcastic?). The conclusion has to be convincing for you to be convinced, right?

Errr yeah sweetie, this line of thought has been beaten to death. I'm quite clear of that concept by now, thank you.

Most of the christians I know do not covet the heaven reward or fear the burn in hell threats. To them, god's grace is enough.

 

But the fact of matter christianity is an ultimatum. It is either you submit in christ or be tortured in hell.

 

Peaceful Message of Christianity

 

Matt 12:30

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

 

Jesus made it quite clear that anyone who offends him would be violently destroyed.

 

Matt 13:40-42

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth

 

Anyone who doesn't believe in the new savior called "Jesus" will have the wrath of God on them.

 

John 3:36(Jesus speaking)

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

 

Anyone who doesn't bow to the Lord Jesus deserves to be slain.

 

Luke 19:27(Jesus speaking in a parable)

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

 

Jews who didn't buy into the new religion Jesus was preaching were condemned as being children of the "Devil", the very spawn of evil.

 

John 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

 

This particular view of Jews, or anyone else who doesn't bow to Jesus, is also expressed in the writings of St. Paul.

Anyone who taught anything that opposed Paul's version of the truth was vilified and cursed by God through his holy appointed servant Paul.

 

Gal 1:9

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

Paul depicts the Jews as the killers of Jesus, they displease God, and are contrary to all mankind.

 

1 Thess 2:14-15

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

 

Paul's continued vilification of Jews who did not bow down to his gospel follows.

Jews are described as being completely defiled, abominable, and reprobate creatures, unfit to voice their beliefs.

 

Titus 1:10-16

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision(Jews):

Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

Justification for actions against Jews can easily be derived by applying Paul's instructions to stop the mouths of anyone that would disagree with the Christian version of "truth".

 

The influence of New Testament intolerance are also clearly manifested in the writings of the great Christian leader and reformer, Martin Luther.

The holy inspired father of the Protestant Reformation had no problem urging a direct application of Paul's decrees.

The Jews were to be silenced and punished for the error of their ways.

These actions were part of the duty as a good Christian to honor God and show him the strength of your faith..

As Luther wrote concerning the Jews:

 

"First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly - and I myself was unaware of it - will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know."

 

"Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now but that we have now given them their due reward."-Martin Luther, excerpts from The Jews And Their Lies(1543)

 

Adolf Hitler took the words of the great Christian leader Martin Luther seriously.

 

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

-Adolf Hitler, from Mein Kampf

 

For those pious Christians who try to convince skeptics that Hitler wasn't a "true" Christian but simply a false Christian, their accusation would have to apply to St. Paul and Martin Luther as well.

Trying to claim that Martin Luther wasn't really a "true" Christian fails and falls into the classification of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Luther was just as much a Christian as anyone else who claims to be one.

The roots for Hitler's policies against the Jews were laid down by Jesus, Paul, and Martin Luther.

Hitler took their words about Jews seriously and applied their teachings to his social order.

 

Maybe your denomination does nit gives hell fire as a threat, but they are a lot christians who believe in it.

 

Realities of Hell (A baptist viewpoint)

 

Some of the ppl in my church are really gentle, old folks and illiterate! They do not give a fig, well even if they do, they can't. They do not have a clue about the stories in the holy bible. Rightly or wrongly, they receive the word through our pastors. Just simple faith in Jesus Christ, that's all.

 

Some of them have gone to church for up to 10 years without believing! Then they were touched. Yes, after faithfully attending church to listen and perhaps fellowship. Just the opposite of some of you folks. Call it brainwashing or whatever ~ from the moment they were baptised in the holy spirit... and some of the young uns (from toddlers to teenagers)... ummmm, ok i stop.

 

Well Muslims, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah Witness and every other religion will claim the same thing about their belief. So what's so different about christianity?

 

It's hard for me as it is being a baby born-again, who needs to be that fanatical type of xtian who struts in and arrogantly, patronisingly... spouting all the holier than thou thang, best religion in the world of all time. Convert or fry in hell. Believe you me I've met my fair share. Sheeessh. No thanks.

Christians are getting that attitude from the same source as yours. All of you claim to be true christians. So who is write.

 

 

Simply faith in Jesus Christ. Use the Holy Bible as a guide. Do my best to be a loving, caring christian. His grace is good enough for me.

 

Simply putting in faith in Christ or Sola Fide is a concept which is debated amongst the so many protestants denomination. Catholics and Jehovah's withness say you need to do works. And yes they do have scripture to back up their claim.

 

Justification: By Faith or Works?(A Honest Bible Study)

 

As far the bible as guide. Which version of the bible should I follow

 

1)The Jewish Bible(OT)

2)The Catholic Bible

3)The Eastern Orthodox Bible

4)The Protestant Bible

 

A Prayer of Jesus That Failed

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But the fact of matter christianity is an ultimatum. It is either you submit in christ or be tortured in hell.

 

Peaceful Message of Christianity

....

 

Justification: By Faith or Works?(A Honest Bible Study)

 

As far the bible as guide. Which version of the bible should I follow

 

1)The Jewish Bible(OT)

2)The Catholic Bible

3)The Eastern Orthodox Bible

4)The Protestant Bible

 

A Prayer of Jesus That Failed

 

I'm running out of bookmark space! LOL.

 

Christianity offers to save you from a problem that it can't establish as existing in the first place.

It wants all others to carry around the same spiritual baggage that its followers have had imprinted on them.

 

So many different points of view... I guess they all just negate each other.

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I'm running out of bookmark space!  LOL.

So many different points of view... I guess they all just negate each other.

 

Here is another interesting one

 

Now I don't whether the following link is a spoof or real. But never the shows how christianity can go through some people's head

 

www.godhatesfags.com

 

Christian Sermon On Hellfire, Whoring etc(Mp3 soundfile)

 

I think I'l start a new topic for others to see

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Here is another interesting one

 

Now I don't whether the following link is a spoof or real. But never the shows how christianity can go through some people's head

 

www.godhatesfags.com

 

Christian Sermon On Hellfire, Whoring etc(Mp3 soundfile)

 

I think I'l start a new topic for others to see

 

spoof or real.. that's the thing... some things I think are spoof are probably serious undertakings

 

What I learned here in the last few days is there's more division than I knew/imagined before! chick tracts, truechristian.com ... they're all serious, aren't they? If you go by the bible, literally, then truechristian.com must be a serious work, but it shows the absurdity even greater.

 

What upsets me is how they say atheists go around killing, but they're told By God to kill THEM! That scares me! People have some pretty warpped sense!

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Mr. P,

 

As far the bible as guide. Which version of the bible should I follow

1)The Jewish Bible(OT)

2)The Catholic Bible

3)The Eastern Orthodox Bible

4)The Protestant Bible

 

None.

 

 

Thanks for the interesting reading material.

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