Science And Religion Aren't Friends

[Sybaris]

"Science wins because it works"

 

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-10-11-column11_ST_N.htm

[Deva]

Yes, science works, but I don't think its the be all and end all of all human existence either.

 

This conflict has been going on at least since the late 19th century.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Yes, science works, but I don't think its the be all and end all of all human existence either.

What do you mean?

[foolish girl]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

[Legion]

I think science and religion are friends to the degree that they both posit an orderly universe. To this extent they both share the same "faith". Where they often diverge is on the matter of the origin of this order.

[Deva]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

 

I think you mean "numinous". Yes, that's a good word. I see that we are on the same page.

[Vixentrox]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

Personal spiritual experiences? Many a christian swears by those delusions.

[foolish girl]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

 

I think you mean "numinous". Yes, that's a good word. I see that we are on the same page.

 

Don't I feel sheepish....

[foolish girl]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

Personal spiritual experiences? Many a christian swears by those delusions.

 

Yes but they mold them to fit a dogmatic construct.

I am talking about Transcendental experiences, which are known to all cultures across time. Our brains are iwred for it- we experience it- it is "spiritual". To me the term "spiritual" at this point in my life, is a metaphor.

 

You with me here?

You know sitting in a field, wind in your hair......nurturing sunlight- the warm skin of someone you love...close your eyes...rush of Oxytoctin. That sort of thing, to me, is Numinous. And when it happens I don't thank Jesus. I just feel gratitude.

 

(and the pounding of drums...that'll do it too- somebody light a fire!)

[MagickMonkey]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

Personal spiritual experiences? Many a christian swears by those delusions.

 

Yes but they mold them to fit a dogmatic construct.

I am talking about Transcendental experiences, which are known to all cultures across time. Our brains are iwred for it- we experience it- it is "spiritual". To me the term "spiritual" at this point in my life, is a metaphor.

 

You with me here?

You know sitting in a field, wind in your hair......nurturing sunlight- the warm skin of someone you love...close your eyes...rush of Oxytoctin. That sort of thing, to me, is Numinous. And when it happens I don't thank Jesus. I just feel gratitude.

 

(and the pounding of drums...that'll do it too- somebody light a fire!)

 

Or maybe the feeling you get when listening to Jimi Hendrix while intoxicated.

[Vixentrox]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

Personal spiritual experiences? Many a christian swears by those delusions.

 

Yes but they mold them to fit a dogmatic construct.

I am talking about Transcendental experiences, which are known to all cultures across time. Our brains are iwred for it- we experience it- it is "spiritual". To me the term "spiritual" at this point in my life, is a metaphor.

 

You with me here?

You know sitting in a field, wind in your hair......nurturing sunlight- the warm skin of someone you love...close your eyes...rush of Oxytoctin. That sort of thing, to me, is Numinous. And when it happens I don't thank Jesus. I just feel gratitude.

 

(and the pounding of drums...that'll do it too- somebody light a fire!)

Those things are not spiritual, just simple (or complex...) biochemical reactions to stimuli.

[MagickMonkey]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

Personal spiritual experiences? Many a christian swears by those delusions.

 

Yes but they mold them to fit a dogmatic construct.

I am talking about Transcendental experiences, which are known to all cultures across time. Our brains are iwred for it- we experience it- it is "spiritual". To me the term "spiritual" at this point in my life, is a metaphor.

 

You with me here?

You know sitting in a field, wind in your hair......nurturing sunlight- the warm skin of someone you love...close your eyes...rush of Oxytoctin. That sort of thing, to me, is Numinous. And when it happens I don't thank Jesus. I just feel gratitude.

 

(and the pounding of drums...that'll do it too- somebody light a fire!)

Those things are not spiritual, just simple (or complex...) biochemical reactions to stimuli.

 

Don't forget she's using the term spiritual in a metaphoric sense.

[Vixentrox]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

Personal spiritual experiences? Many a christian swears by those delusions.

 

Yes but they mold them to fit a dogmatic construct.

I am talking about Transcendental experiences, which are known to all cultures across time. Our brains are iwred for it- we experience it- it is "spiritual". To me the term "spiritual" at this point in my life, is a metaphor.

 

You with me here?

You know sitting in a field, wind in your hair......nurturing sunlight- the warm skin of someone you love...close your eyes...rush of Oxytoctin. That sort of thing, to me, is Numinous. And when it happens I don't thank Jesus. I just feel gratitude.

 

(and the pounding of drums...that'll do it too- somebody light a fire!)

Those things are not spiritual, just simple (or complex...) biochemical reactions to stimuli.

 

Don't forget she's using the term spiritual in a metaphoric sense.

Which is rather silly to turn science into some sort of magical trick.

[MagickMonkey]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

Personal spiritual experiences? Many a christian swears by those delusions.

 

Yes but they mold them to fit a dogmatic construct.

I am talking about Transcendental experiences, which are known to all cultures across time. Our brains are iwred for it- we experience it- it is "spiritual". To me the term "spiritual" at this point in my life, is a metaphor.

 

You with me here?

You know sitting in a field, wind in your hair......nurturing sunlight- the warm skin of someone you love...close your eyes...rush of Oxytoctin. That sort of thing, to me, is Numinous. And when it happens I don't thank Jesus. I just feel gratitude.

 

(and the pounding of drums...that'll do it too- somebody light a fire!)

Those things are not spiritual, just simple (or complex...) biochemical reactions to stimuli.

 

Don't forget she's using the term spiritual in a metaphoric sense.

Which is rather silly to turn science into some sort of magical trick.

 

Huh!!!

 

I don't see any reason for Not-So-Foolish girl not to use the term Spiritual to refer to a state of mind. Its not the same thing as deluding herself into thinking the spirit world exists. Maybe you see no personal use for using the term, spiritual, this way, but why criticise her for it? I think she's appreciating these biochemical reactions in a valid way.

[Vixentrox]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

Personal spiritual experiences? Many a christian swears by those delusions.

 

Yes but they mold them to fit a dogmatic construct.

I am talking about Transcendental experiences, which are known to all cultures across time. Our brains are iwred for it- we experience it- it is "spiritual". To me the term "spiritual" at this point in my life, is a metaphor.

 

You with me here?

You know sitting in a field, wind in your hair......nurturing sunlight- the warm skin of someone you love...close your eyes...rush of Oxytoctin. That sort of thing, to me, is Numinous. And when it happens I don't thank Jesus. I just feel gratitude.

 

(and the pounding of drums...that'll do it too- somebody light a fire!)

Those things are not spiritual, just simple (or complex...) biochemical reactions to stimuli.

 

Don't forget she's using the term spiritual in a metaphoric sense.

Which is rather silly to turn science into some sort of magical trick.

 

Huh!!!

 

I don't see any reason for Not-So-Foolish girl not to use the term Spiritual to refer to a state of mind. Its not the same thing as deluding herself into thinking the spirit world exists. Maybe you see no personal use for using the term, spiritual, this way, but why criticise her for it? I think she's appreciating these biochemical reactions in a valid way.

Plenty on this forum have a belief in "spiritual" crap as real.

[MagickMonkey]

Plenty on this forum have a belief in "spiritual" crap as real.

 

Maybe, but she clearly said "To me the term "spiritual" at this point in my life, is a metaphor."

[foolish girl]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

Personal spiritual experiences? Many a christian swears by those delusions.

 

Yes but they mold them to fit a dogmatic construct.

I am talking about Transcendental experiences, which are known to all cultures across time. Our brains are iwred for it- we experience it- it is "spiritual". To me the term "spiritual" at this point in my life, is a metaphor.

 

You with me here?

You know sitting in a field, wind in your hair......nurturing sunlight- the warm skin of someone you love...close your eyes...rush of Oxytoctin. That sort of thing, to me, is Numinous. And when it happens I don't thank Jesus. I just feel gratitude.

 

(and the pounding of drums...that'll do it too- somebody light a fire!)

 

Or maybe the feeling you get when listening to Jimi Hendrix while intoxicated.

 

Oh Monkey!

Again I say

"HELL YEAH!

[foolish girl]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

Personal spiritual experiences? Many a christian swears by those delusions.

 

Yes but they mold them to fit a dogmatic construct.

I am talking about Transcendental experiences, which are known to all cultures across time. Our brains are iwred for it- we experience it- it is "spiritual". To me the term "spiritual" at this point in my life, is a metaphor.

 

You with me here?

You know sitting in a field, wind in your hair......nurturing sunlight- the warm skin of someone you love...close your eyes...rush of Oxytoctin. That sort of thing, to me, is Numinous. And when it happens I don't thank Jesus. I just feel gratitude.

 

(and the pounding of drums...that'll do it too- somebody light a fire!)

Those things are not spiritual, just simple (or complex...) biochemical reactions to stimuli.

 

Don't forget she's using the term spiritual in a metaphoric sense.

Which is rather silly to turn science into some sort of magical trick.

 

Huh!!!

 

I don't see any reason for Not-So-Foolish girl not to use the term Spiritual to refer to a state of mind. Its not the same thing as deluding herself into thinking the spirit world exists. Maybe you see no personal use for using the term, spiritual, this way, but why criticise her for it? I think she's appreciating these biochemical reactions in a valid way.

Plenty on this forum have a belief in "spiritual" crap as real.

Wow.

Ok, so there is a whole field of study devoted to understanding consciousness (i.e. Sam Harris). Those "chemical reactions" are remarkable. They can be trained- drawn out- tapped into, however you want to look at it.

Did you ever see this TED talk?

My Stroke of Insight

 

So, this woman is a neurologist who suffers and then analyzes her own stroke. Listening to her passionate description of her feelings of "connectedness" that occured when only one hemisphere of her brain was engaged, it harkens to the testimonies of people who enter meditative states and have "out of body experiences".

It's just super amazing brain tricks.

That is measurable. It is tested. It isn't magic or hokum. So, why all the venom?

[Ouroboros]

I think science and religion are friends to the degree that they both posit an orderly universe. To this extent they both share the same "faith". Where they often diverge is on the matter of the origin of this order.

I agree.

 

Both are attempts to understand the world and our existence. They just differ in how they approach the question and with what methods they find the answers.

[Deva]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

 

I think you mean "numinous". Yes, that's a good word. I see that we are on the same page.

 

Don't I feel sheepish....

 

Oh that's OK - I am not usually the "spelling and grammar Nazi" around here. I just thought you had a very important statement.

[Deva]

Or maybe the feeling you get when listening to Jimi Hendrix while intoxicated.

 

Possibly, but do you think that you need to be intoxicated to have that feeling?

[MagickMonkey]

Or maybe the feeling you get when listening to Jimi Hendrix while intoxicated.

 

Possibly, but do you think that you need to be intoxicated to have that feeling?

 

No, just thinking of an example.

[Vixentrox]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

Personal spiritual experiences? Many a christian swears by those delusions.

 

Yes but they mold them to fit a dogmatic construct.

I am talking about Transcendental experiences, which are known to all cultures across time. Our brains are iwred for it- we experience it- it is "spiritual". To me the term "spiritual" at this point in my life, is a metaphor.

 

You with me here?

You know sitting in a field, wind in your hair......nurturing sunlight- the warm skin of someone you love...close your eyes...rush of Oxytoctin. That sort of thing, to me, is Numinous. And when it happens I don't thank Jesus. I just feel gratitude.

 

(and the pounding of drums...that'll do it too- somebody light a fire!)

Those things are not spiritual, just simple (or complex...) biochemical reactions to stimuli.

 

Don't forget she's using the term spiritual in a metaphoric sense.

Which is rather silly to turn science into some sort of magical trick.

 

Huh!!!

 

I don't see any reason for Not-So-Foolish girl not to use the term Spiritual to refer to a state of mind. Its not the same thing as deluding herself into thinking the spirit world exists. Maybe you see no personal use for using the term, spiritual, this way, but why criticise her for it? I think she's appreciating these biochemical reactions in a valid way.

Plenty on this forum have a belief in "spiritual" crap as real.

Wow.

Ok, so there is a whole field of study devoted to understanding consciousness (i.e. Sam Harris). Those "chemical reactions" are remarkable. They can be trained- drawn out- tapped into, however you want to look at it.

Did you ever see this TED talk?

My Stroke of Insight

 

So, this woman is a neurologist who suffers and then analyzes her own stroke. Listening to her passionate description of her feelings of "connectedness" that occured when only one hemisphere of her brain was engaged, it harkens to the testimonies of people who enter meditative states and have "out of body experiences".

It's just super amazing brain tricks.

That is measurable. It is tested. It isn't magic or hokum. So, why all the venom?

Spirituality to me is the bullshit belief in mystical crap. It is NOT science. It is fairies and magic pyramids and healing crystals, it is reincarnation and thinking "mother earth" is alive, it is herbs chasing away negative "energies" and a whole host of magical junk. I have nothing against studying why people have these chemical reactions in their brain. That is science.

[MagickMonkey]

HELLYEAH!

 

I don't think one has to be religious to be Nominous, Deva. I think transcendental thought can definitely hold it's own. Personal spiritual experiences are not the same as rigid dogmatic religions that seek to control society.

Personal spiritual experiences? Many a christian swears by those delusions.

 

Yes but they mold them to fit a dogmatic construct.

I am talking about Transcendental experiences, which are known to all cultures across time. Our brains are iwred for it- we experience it- it is "spiritual". To me the term "spiritual" at this point in my life, is a metaphor.

 

You with me here?

You know sitting in a field, wind in your hair......nurturing sunlight- the warm skin of someone you love...close your eyes...rush of Oxytoctin. That sort of thing, to me, is Numinous. And when it happens I don't thank Jesus. I just feel gratitude.

 

(and the pounding of drums...that'll do it too- somebody light a fire!)

Those things are not spiritual, just simple (or complex...) biochemical reactions to stimuli.

 

Don't forget she's using the term spiritual in a metaphoric sense.

Which is rather silly to turn science into some sort of magical trick.

 

Huh!!!

 

I don't see any reason for Not-So-Foolish girl not to use the term Spiritual to refer to a state of mind. Its not the same thing as deluding herself into thinking the spirit world exists. Maybe you see no personal use for using the term, spiritual, this way, but why criticise her for it? I think she's appreciating these biochemical reactions in a valid way.

Plenty on this forum have a belief in "spiritual" crap as real.

Wow.

Ok, so there is a whole field of study devoted to understanding consciousness (i.e. Sam Harris). Those "chemical reactions" are remarkable. They can be trained- drawn out- tapped into, however you want to look at it.

Did you ever see this TED talk?

My Stroke of Insight

 

So, this woman is a neurologist who suffers and then analyzes her own stroke. Listening to her passionate description of her feelings of "connectedness" that occured when only one hemisphere of her brain was engaged, it harkens to the testimonies of people who enter meditative states and have "out of body experiences".

It's just super amazing brain tricks.

That is measurable. It is tested. It isn't magic or hokum. So, why all the venom?

Spirituality to me is the bullshit belief in mystical crap. It is NOT science. It is fairies and magic pyramids and crystal, it is reincarnation and thinking "mother earth" is alive, it is herbs chasing away negative "energies" and a whole host of magical junk. I have nothing against studying why people have these chemical reactions in their brain. That is science.

 

I don't get why you have a problem with someone else using the term metaphorically? Are you just wanting to pick a fight with someone? You are making an ass of yourself for no reason. There's plenty of better opportunities to argue in other threads.

[Guest Valk0010]

Yes, science works, but I don't think its the be all and end all of all human existence either.

What do you mean?

I would guess she means, nonscientific experience, like say visions and prayer and all are just as valid as any science. Not sure I agree, but I think that is what she means.