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Goodbye Jesus

Science And Religion Aren't Friends


Sybaris

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I am not going to go into it too much for obvious reasons.

You mean like someone calling you an idiot, or something for being different? ;)

I gave Buddhism a try for a couple years after ditching Christianity. Was useless. Just like being in a church. Temples gilt with gold, monks begging for money, trinkets galore for sale. In other words, the typical horseshit that one would expect from a religion. Nothing mystical, nothing magical, and a whole lot of the same crap one would expect out of a religion.

 

OK, I understand it was useless to you. We all get that. What I find harder to understand is your continued denagration of those of us who do find something in it more than "trinkets galore for sale and horseshit". What is with the continued attacks? Maybe we do find the trinkets and stuff is offensive but the teaching and practice itself opens up possibilities for mental transformation for the betterment of us in ways you honestly seem incapable of grasping. "Nothing mystical, nothing magical" - please speak for yourself. I follow it for a reason, its just not a good enough one for you.

Yes, the deluded followers of Christianity followed it in spite of some of the harmful and offensive things things too. Mental transformation. Hours of pointless chanting only gave me a sore throat and reminded of the stupid christian practice of prayer. But at least you are not worshipping evil. But that is neither here nor there. The point of this thread is science being the enemy of religion. Can you scientifically PROVE mystical stuff as real? If not it has no standing and its merit is scarecly removed from that of the snake oil Christianity sells to the believers. Prayer DOESN'T work, science has proven it. Prove that chants or other mystical mumbo-jumbo do something "mystical". Show me the science.

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You talk about people devloping, views changing as they get older. Very true. Nothing mystical AT ALL about this. One doesn't mature then all of a sudden get in touch with etheral planes and start witnessing spirtits and magic as true. So no, I don't point at a child and think them an idiot. But adults are supposed to have grown past childish nonsense. Adults are supposed to be to the point where they can see the world around them as it is, not as they wish it to be with fairies and magic rocks and mystical herbs.

 

A majority of adults engage in magical thinking throughout their lives. This is reality. The world around you as it is, not as you wish it to be.

 

Phanta

Yes you are correct. Add the number of Christards to the Muslims, Hindus, and the like and indeed, the world is deluded by foolishness and often down right evil magical thinking. It is a BANE on humanity.

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[Yes, the deluded followers of Christianity followed it in spite of some of the harmful and offensive things things too. Mental transformation. Hours of pointless chanting only gave me a sore throat and reminded of the stupid christian practice of prayer. But at least you are not worshipping evil. But that is neither here nor there. The point of this thread is science being the enemy of religion. Can you scientifically PROVE mystical stuff as real? If not it has no standing and its merit is scarecly removed from that of the snake oil Christianity sells to the believers. Prayer DOESN'T work, science has proven it. Prove that chants or other mystical mumbo-jumbo do something "mystical". Show me the science.

 

I don't think science is the enemy of religion. Science is only the enemy of some forms of religion that deny scientific findings, such as the fossil record, evolution, cosmology, etc. Mysticism is not incompatible with science. See above quote from Einstein.

 

There is inner space and there is outer space. At this time, science simply does not and cannot address this world of inner space, the world of thought. We must explore that for ourselves and for our own personal development. Yes, I think the mind can be transformed. The way we perceive things can change. When that changes then the world has changed. You may say "that's completely subjective, that cannot be proven in the lab." It still happens.

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Sure, science is influenced by the subjective because people can look at the same set of data and draw different conclusions, if there is room to draw a different conclusion.

Vixen I have tried to explain some of the philosophy that underpins science. It's not merely that the subjective influences science; the subjective is indispensible! The entire thrust of science is to make the objective world comprehensible to the subjective mind. At the risk using hyperbole, I will even say this. We can be far more certain of the existence of the subjective world than we can be of the objective world.

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A-man I have that quote as saying...

 

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein

Well appernantly he is mistaken. I can stand in "rapt in awe" at a bit of art, scenery, special effect. Nothing mysterious about it to me.

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A-man I have that quote as saying...

 

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein

Well appernantly he is mistaken. I can stand in "rapt in awe" at a bit of art, scenery, special effect. Nothing mysterious about it to me.

You missed the key word there: Source

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A-man I have that quote as saying...

 

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein

Well appernantly he is mistaken. I can stand in "rapt in awe" at a bit of art, scenery, special effect. Nothing mysterious about it to me.

You missed the key word there: Source

I don't see imagination as mysterious. That is all I see where art and science comes from. And I haven't forgotten about your other post. I'll admit much of what is in those links doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me....blame it on the language since you seem to appreciate that term in you one forum post. It seems to me that they are taking simple concepts and twisting and turning into a huge non-sensical mess that has no value or purpose other than to cloud the obvious.

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A-man I have that quote as saying...

 

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein

Well appernantly he is mistaken. I can stand in "rapt in awe" at a bit of art, scenery, special effect. Nothing mysterious about it to me.

You missed the key word there: Source

I don't see imagination as mysterious. That is all I see where art and science comes from.

There is a difference between imagination and inspiration. Imagination is what is used to give form to inspiration. It is not the source of inspiration. What he was saying about the mystical, is that it is the source that inspires imagination. It is an experience beyond form. In the heart of the mystic, it is the accessing of the essence and nature of being itself and becoming that, before and beyond any manifest forms in the world and in ourselves. It transcends thought, and imagination is thoughts expressed in response. It is the Source behind all the masks, all expressions of that.

 

That you can response to art on some level is a positive thing. For the mystic, it is about knowing and understanding and developing a connection with that source in the universe and within ourselves. That is mysticism, not woo-woo crystals and magic spirits. It goes much deeper than what I describe.

 

 

And I haven't forgotten about your other post. I'll admit much of what is in those links doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me....blame it on the language since you seem to appreciate that term in you one forum post. It seems to me that they are taking simple concepts and twisting and turning into a huge non-sensical mess that has no value or purpose other than to cloud the obvious.

Actually, it's science. So on that level you should listen to it. It is a critical examination of the data that follows the rules of science. It's hardly a mess that clouds, it actually clarifies greatly as the tools of science are all about! It's for this reason I feel it critical for you to understand beyond just your raw emotional responses based on no critical data at all in your attacks. Wisdom begins with knowledge. This is knowledge.

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The point of this thread is science being the enemy of religion.

Actually, I think the focus has shifted to trying to get you to stop being such an asshole. Face it, you jump into these threads screaming "unreal, unreal, unreal" and demand proof of the supernatural. Acting like a buffoon does not help the cause of rational thought.

 

 

Prayer DOESN'T work, science has proven it.

Partially correct. Studies have shown that when invoking a supernatural force prayer fails, however, there have been other studies that show prayer can have a calming effect on the brain. So it DOES work, just not for the purpose most folks think.

 

 

Prove that chants or other mystical mumbo-jumbo do something "mystical". Show me the science.

Why is it that you insist that "mystical" automatically equates to "supernatural"? Prove that.

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The point of this thread is science being the enemy of religion.

Actually, I think the focus has shifted to trying to get you to stop being such an asshole. Face it, you jump into these threads screaming "unreal, unreal, unreal" and demand proof of the supernatural. Acting like a buffoon does not help the cause of rational thought.

 

 

Prayer DOESN'T work, science has proven it.

Partially correct. Studies have shown that when invoking a supernatural force prayer fails, however, there have been other studies that show prayer can have a calming effect on the brain. So it DOES work, just not for the purpose most folks think.

 

 

Prove that chants or other mystical mumbo-jumbo do something "mystical". Show me the science.

Why is it that you insist that "mystical" automatically equates to "supernatural"? Prove that.

I don't need to stop being anything. Maybe you are just "perceiving it that way" because you haven't "transcended" past the need of something more than hard reality. Are you a Buddhist perchance? As to the assertion that mystical equals supernatural I already said the perhaps there is misunderstanding in the language. And prayer doesn't work. I never said it can't have an effect on the brain.

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Prayer DOESN'T work, science has proven it.

Partially correct. Studies have shown that when invoking a supernatural force prayer fails, however, there have been other studies that show prayer can have a calming effect on the brain. So it DOES work, just not for the purpose most folks think.

 

The sense I get is that prayer can't have that calming effect for many (most?) who don't have some supernatural belief. It certainly doesn't work for me, and I don't know of any atheists for whom it works. (I'd love to hear from atheists who can successfully get that benefit from prayer, though, because I would love to get in on it!) So, in that sense, supernatural belief is rewarded in the natural functioning of their brains simply by focusing an action around an extraordinary belief.

 

It works, it works, it works.

 

It is common. It is the norm. It is the way the brain functions. To say that these adults are supposed to behave otherwise is to deny the reality of actual, existing humanity as a whole taking advantage of a biological phenomenon.

 

Phanta

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I thought the last prayer test experiment showed the opposite. Those who were prayed for got worse than those who didn't. Maybe I remember it wrong... :shrug:

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I thought the last prayer test experiment showed the opposite. Those who were prayed for got worse than those who didn't. Maybe I remember it wrong... :shrug:

If you believe in prayer and know you are being prayed for, it can have a placebo effect. Those who were unknowingly prayed for (in at least one experiment) had a statistically insignificant worse outcome than those patients left out of the prayer circles.

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I thought the last prayer test experiment showed the opposite. Those who were prayed for got worse than those who didn't. Maybe I remember it wrong... :shrug:

If you believe in prayer and know you are being prayed for, it can have a placebo effect. Those who were unknowingly prayed for (in at least one experiment) had a statistically insignificant worse outcome than those patients left out of the prayer circles.

I just realized something. Prayers and belief can have the opposite effect too. A kind of anti-placebo. If someone believes that they are going to Heaven and their time is up, they will feel worse and not heal as quickly.

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I just realized something. Prayers and belief can have the opposite effect too. A kind of anti-placebo. If someone believes that they are going to Heaven and their time is up, they will feel worse and not heal as quickly.

This is where you begin to open the door to understanding just how deep that rabbit hole can go.

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I thought the last prayer test experiment showed the opposite. Those who were prayed for got worse than those who didn't. Maybe I remember it wrong... :shrug:

 

If I remember correctly the results were inconclusive, no statistical basis for failing to reject the null hypothesis (that prayer leads to a statistically significant outcome of treatment). There are several studies, here is one of them:

 

http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/76/12/1192.abstract

 

Of course, another one from the NIH seems to suggest the opposite:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1305403/pdf/westjmed00327-0028.pdf

 

However... CD4+ count is known to fluctuate/increase naturally during the clinical latency period (see here for an example) so this study may not necessarily be the best one. Unfortunately elimination of covariate factors and establishing causality to a correlation is one of the hardest parts of determining the validity of data from empirical sources.

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I thought the last prayer test experiment showed the opposite. Those who were prayed for got worse than those who didn't. Maybe I remember it wrong... :shrug:

 

I'm reinforcing what Rodney said, that it works....just not in the way they think it is working.

 

But it still works...has a significant effect on the one praying.

 

Not only that, but it seems to me that one must believe the supernatural for prayer to do that very real work (self-transformation, calming on the brain, etc.). If that's not true, I'd like to know about it...about how to access the benefit of prayer without the supernatural belief ability.

 

Phanta

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The sense I get is that prayer can't have that calming effect for many (most?) who don't have some supernatural belief. It certainly doesn't work for me, and I don't know of any atheists for whom it works. (I'd love to hear from atheists who can successfully get that benefit from prayer, though, because I would love to get in on it!) So, in that sense, supernatural belief is rewarded in the natural functioning of their brains simply by focusing an action around an extraordinary belief.

 

Well P. I can't speak for Christian prayers, but I don't believe in Amida or in any after death Pure Land, yet the nembutsu- namu amida butsu roughly translated: "homage to Amida Buddha"- works very well for calming and centering. There again, I adopted the practice as a non-supernatural means from the onset.

 

If I recall what I read correctly, it is the highly ritualized prayers (ie, Hail Mary or Our Father) that have the soothing effect.

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The sense I get is that prayer can't have that calming effect for many (most?) who don't have some supernatural belief. It certainly doesn't work for me, and I don't know of any atheists for whom it works. (I'd love to hear from atheists who can successfully get that benefit from prayer, though, because I would love to get in on it!) So, in that sense, supernatural belief is rewarded in the natural functioning of their brains simply by focusing an action around an extraordinary belief.

 

Well P. I can't speak for Christian prayers, but I don't believe in Amida or in any after death Pure Land, yet the nembutsu- namu amida butsu roughly translated: "homage to Amida Buddha"- works very well for calming and centering. There again, I adopted the practice as a non-supernatural means from the onset.

 

Thanks for that example, Rodney. It gives me some hope of tapping in.

 

Phanta

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The sense I get is that prayer can't have that calming effect for many (most?) who don't have some supernatural belief. It certainly doesn't work for me, and I don't know of any atheists for whom it works. (I'd love to hear from atheists who can successfully get that benefit from prayer, though, because I would love to get in on it!) So, in that sense, supernatural belief is rewarded in the natural functioning of their brains simply by focusing an action around an extraordinary belief.

 

Well P. I can't speak for Christian prayers, but I don't believe in Amida or in any after death Pure Land, yet the nembutsu- namu amida butsu roughly translated: "homage to Amida Buddha"- works very well for calming and centering. There again, I adopted the practice as a non-supernatural means from the onset.

 

If I recall what I read correctly, it is the highly ritualized prayers (ie, Hail Mary or Our Father) that have the soothing effect.

 

I am engaged in Ngondro, the preliminary practice of Vajarayana Buddhism - the mantra (one of them, anyway) is "Om Ah Hung, Vajra Guru Pema Siddhi Hung." I don't know the translation exactly, but I do know what some of the words mean. All I can say is that it helps me when my mind is just going wild. There is also a visualization that goes with it. Tibetan Buddhism makes full use of the imagination - and they know its imagination. That may be why I am so attracted to it.

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Thanks for sharing your experience, Deva. It's good to hear about these kinds of experiences that would theoretically be available to an atheist (technically agnostic) like me.

 

Phanta

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Thanks for sharing your experience, Deva. It's good to hear about these kinds of experiences that would theoretically be available to an atheist (technically agnostic) like me.

 

Phanta

 

I think they absolutely could apply to atheists. I am not myself an atheist, but they certainly could. No belief in god is really necessary.

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Thanks for sharing your experience, Deva. It's good to hear about these kinds of experiences that would theoretically be available to an atheist (technically agnostic) like me.

 

Phanta

 

I think they absolutely could apply to atheists. I am not myself an atheist, but they certainly could. No belief in god is really necessary.

Except Buddhism is rife with godlings, magical beasts and such.

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Vixen do you believe it's possible for a person to be a spiritual atheist? This person has no gods, no belief in superfluous supernatural hocus-pocus, no interest in reincarnation, no pagan spells and rituals, no over-riding fluffy bunny feelings. They only have a recognition and deep appreciation for the interconnectedness of all things. Do you believe that's possible?

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Thanks for sharing your experience, Deva. It's good to hear about these kinds of experiences that would theoretically be available to an atheist (technically agnostic) like me.

 

Phanta

 

I think they absolutely could apply to atheists. I am not myself an atheist, but they certainly could. No belief in god is really necessary.

Except Buddhism is rife with godlings, magical beasts and such.

 

It may be rife with them, but it is not ABOUT them-- its about the mind. These "godlings" and other "magical beings" are not necessarily to be understood literally as beings "out there". Its not a requirement to believe in those things. You just can't seem to grasp that. Also, there are many forms of Buddhism.

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