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Goodbye Jesus

What makes the christian god so great anyway??


Angel

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What makes him so wonderful... worthy of praise, honor.. yada yada? I don't get it? Christians, please explain? I just do not grasp the concept of killing your child being something uplifting???

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[sarcasm]

Oh, and please all you "vile" Ex-Christian members, let us all remain respectfully quiet, as we await the awesome and mighty REAL Christians™ to answer this question. Y'see, WE can't possibly have an intelligent answer, so let us hold our breaths waiting for THEM to reply and shed their wisdom upon our unworthiness.

[/end sarcasm]

 

 

 

 

 

daniel? Are you out there? :wicked:

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I'm a real, true Christian™ so I can answer... no wait... I'm not... damn, I thought I paid the membership fee last time it was up for renewal, but I must have missed it...

I know the payslip is somewhere here under the papers...

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What makes him so wonderful... worthy of praise, honor.. yada yada? I don't get it? Christians, please explain? I just do not grasp the concept of killing your child being something uplifting???

 

 

As a Christian that praises and worships God; the words of description that you have pinned are solely independant to each persons personnal dealings with God. I do all the above and would tell anyone of all those things and much more because of my testimony of all those things.

 

Another question that i believe is fair to ask is, " Did you as a former Christian ever do these things and why?

 

Are you referring to Issac as far as the killing your child?

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got a feeling she's talking about sonny Jesus.

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I suppose you could say he's worthy of worship becuase your afraid of his fucking demonic behavior. Just a cursoury glance at the bible shows how much of a monster he is.

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got a feeling she's talking about sonny Jesus.

 

 

I would like to reason a little here.

 

What would God supposedly have done to resolve and make a way for the people that He had done everything unhumanly imaginable to let them know that He is God alone and to have a direct path to him, without sacrifices?

 

If all the Ot is accurate leading up to the point of Christ, What would have been a better solution for peoples that He created as His that became corrupt and were stubborn and paganistic?

 

A verse that helps me with that is when Jesus thanked the Father for revealing this to the babes( young ones).

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What would God supposedly have done to resolve and make a way for the people that He had done everything unhumanly imaginable to let them know that He is God alone and to have a direct path to him, without sacrifices?

Sacrifices is a pagan ritual. Why does God even need a blood offering to start with? The OT says the soul is in the blood, just the same way as old indian cultures and tribes in the jungles believed. Like the pygmees. Drink the blood of thy enemy to gain his strenght and ability. It's an old ritualistic and mystical idea, that got borrow into Judaism.

 

Explain rationally why a blood sacrifice at all pays or makes anything right to a god?

 

If all the Ot is accurate leading up to the point of Christ, What would have been a better solution for peoples that He created as His that became corrupt and were stubborn and paganistic?

Wouldn't it have been better if it was done before Noah took the boat for a ride? What stopped God to have Jesus born and sacrificed during the building of tower of Babel? Why did God have to prove the point that we can't follow a scriptural law, and he had to do it for 4000 years, before he would give us the right solution? And why did he let the message get corrupt for yet another 1600 years? And then be mixed up and misunderstood for another 300 years? And finally, in the last days, now all of a sudden, the Christians got the message right? The few that are left? The rest of humanity in history had to pay with eternal punishment because God couldn't make a better plan for salvation?

 

Many questions here. I hope I don't scare you away! :grin:

 

A verse that helps me with that is when Jesus thanked the Father for revealing this to the babes( young ones).

Because they can believe, without questioning, or reasoning. They just accept, without evidence.

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Explain rationally why a blood sacrifice at all pays or makes anything right to a god?

 

Also why torturing billions of people for all of eternity for any reason is ethical.

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What would God supposedly have done to resolve and make a way for the people that He had done everything unhumanly imaginable to let them know that He is God alone and to have a direct path to him, without sacrifices?

 

You're saying that God is incapable of showing people he is God? Because even with a "sacrifice" people still don't believe? Sounds like he's a bit of a failure.

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Sacrifices is a pagan ritual. Why does God even need a blood offering to start with? The OT says the soul is in the blood, just the same way as old indian cultures and tribes in the jungles believed. Like the pygmees. Drink the blood of thy enemy to gain his strenght and ability. It's an old ritualistic and mystical idea, that got borrow into Judaism.

 

Explain rationally why a blood sacrifice at all pays or makes anything right to a god?

Wouldn't it have been better if it was done before Noah took the boat for a ride? What stopped God to have Jesus born and sacrificed during the building of tower of Babel? Why did God have to prove the point that we can't follow a scriptural law, and he had to do it for 4000 years, before he would give us the right solution? And why did he let the message get corrupt for yet another 1600 years? And then be mixed up and misunderstood for another 300 years? And finally, in the last days, now all of a sudden, the Christians got the message right? The few that are left? The rest of humanity in history had to pay with eternal punishment because God couldn't make a better plan for salvation?

 

Many questions here. I hope I don't scare you away! :grin:

Because they can believe, without questioning, or reasoning. They just accept, without evidence.

 

 

 

Hans,

 

I want to thank you for those questions that really have substance. Most of the time people pawn me out to a certain sect of Christianity and dismiss anything I say. I am just a guy that had a undenying experience with God, and I like to discuss others thoughts about God.

 

In the Ot, God was removing this group of paganistic people and proclaiming them His. He gave them their Laws. In regards to the blood, think about what was just said. The soul is possesed in the blood.

 

Paganistic. The people of that time where much more than Paganistic people, they were mad, craved, roaming brutes. According to the Ot, the blood of animals was a craving to them. They in one instance rebelled and began eating animals uncooked.

 

Jesus also said that many of the Laws given to Moses was because of the hardness of the peoples hearts of that time. Their are many scripture that give clarity , for me, that God did what He did for a reason.

 

Remeber, if all is all and correct according to the Bible, Israel still stands today as Gods consecrated. These people were formed for more reasons than we could propbualy count.

 

The most confusing and curious parts to me about the whole Bible are the thought patterns and decisions that God partook in. David and His relationship with God was very enlightening to me. David was right according to the Bible in Gods eyes, yet He broke a few of the Levitical Laws.

 

I know that being a former Christian you have probualy heard this alot. The world has not received Him ever since the beginning. Then and now, we continue to rebell to our own thoughts and conclusions and ways.

 

Alot of people talk about the OT and say that it was contridictive to the Gospel.

Moses said over thirty times in His time to love the Lord with all the heart, thy mind, and thy soul.

 

Yet, they didnt. Then another like Moses said the same thing. Yet, we dont listen.

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The people of that time where much more than Paganistic people, they were mad, craved, roaming brutes.

 

Yes, those mad crased roaming brutes are so much worse than god's chosen mad crased roaming brutes.

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Guest FormerSamurai

The way I see it, God (if God exists) could legitimately be accused of negligence. Observe:

 

1.) God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient -- God knows all, sees all and is all-powerful.

 

2.) Being such, God knew full-well that Lucifer (hereafter known as Satan) would get full of himself and sin.

 

3.) Knowing that, God also knew that Satan would take the form of a serpant and sneak (?!!) into God's perfect garden.

 

4.) Knowing all this, God STILL created God's 'masterpiece' with the ability to deviate from God's will.

 

5.) Because of humanity's ability to deviate from God's will, we are all destined to be punished for not loving God and serving God.

 

Several conclusions could be drawn here.

 

A) God -isn't- omnipotent and/or omnipresent -- God just couldn't have known what would happen and/or was powerless to stop it.

 

B) God has some serious codependancy issues that God needs to work on.

 

C) God was negligent in 1 - creating Satan, 2 - creating Satan with the ability to disobey God, 3 - creating humanity, 4 - creating the tree of knowledge, 5 - creating humanity with the ability of disobeying God.

 

Personally, I can go either way on answer A or C. I lean more towards C, though.

 

This is, of course, providing that God, in fact, exists.

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Hi FormerSamurai, and welcome to the site! :wave:

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Where?  Please give scripture to back up your statement. The gospels never have jesus saying that...period.  The author of hebrews said that, not the gospel writers.

 

If laws of moses were finished at the cross then WHY in the OT, AFTER, the supposed "REAL" Messiah comes, will there be blood sacrifices, holy days, new moons and sabbaths?  Does the law suddenly become needed again?  Did gods prophets of Old screw up?  Make mistakes?  Cuz' if they did that means everything they wrote needs to be chunked.

 

I say it all should be chunked and flushed regardless, but I'm asking you as a Christian, to explain this obvious "oops" in Christian doctrine.

 

The other question is, why after the sac to end all sacs, were Peter, John and James still following the law for decades after the event, until Paul denounced them to the local churches

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In the Ot, God was removing this group of paganistic people and proclaiming them His. He gave them their Laws. In regards to the blood, think about what was just said. The soul is possesed in the blood.

 

??? Ok, our soul is our blood. :shrug:

 

Paganistic. The people of that time where much more than Paganistic people, they were mad, craved, roaming brutes. According to the Ot, the blood of animals was a craving to them. They in one instance rebelled and began eating animals uncooked.

 

??? I are confused. Are you talking about the Israelites?

 

OT god craved animal blood, too. :Hmm: Not sure where you're going w/this.

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Hans,

 

I want to thank you for those questions that really have substance. Most of the time people pawn me out to a certain sect of Christianity and dismiss anything I say. I am just a guy that had a undenying experience with God, and I like to discuss others thoughts about God.

 

 

 

Muslims would claim the same thing about Allah, and so will all the other religion in the world.

 

In the Ot, God was removing this group of paganistic people and proclaiming them His. He gave them their Laws. In regards to the blood, think about what was just said. The soul is possesed in the blood.

 

Jesus also said that many of the Laws given to Moses was because of the hardness of the peoples hearts of that time. Their are many scripture that give clarity , for me, that God did what He did for a reason.

 

The laws were given to his chosen people. There not given because of any hardness of any time.

 

God's Law represented righteousness which uplifted his people over others.

 

Deut 4:8

And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I(God) set before you this day?

 

Righteousness and salvation are obtained by following God's Law.

People are justified by doing the works of the Law.

 

Psa 119:41,44

Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word.

So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

 

Psa 119:144-146

The righteousness of thy testimonies(laws) is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live(have salvation).

I cried with my whole heart; hear me, O LORD: I will keep thy statutes.

I cried unto thee; save me, and I shall keep thy testimonies(laws).

 

Eccl 12:13

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments(laws): for this is the whole duty of man.

 

Deut 6:25

And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

 

 

In the OT each person will die for their own sin and will redeem themselves by turning from their past sins, and by doing what is lawful and right, which means keeping all of God's statutes(laws).

 

Let there be no mistake about this issue:

Ezek 18:27-28

Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

 

 

 

The consumption of any blood, symbolic or otherwise, is utter abomination to God.

People who practiced the abomination of consuming blood were committing sin.

The idea that God would send a Messiah to tell people to do such a thing is ludicrous and makes a mockery of God's law regarding this heathen practice. Recognizing and adding a heathen practice, such as drinking the blood of a sacrifice, is exactly what God told his people not to do in Deut 4:2:

 

Lev 17:10,12

And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

 

 

 

The most confusing and curious parts to me about the whole Bible are the thought patterns and decisions that God partook in. David and His relationship with God was very enlightening to me. David was right according to the Bible in Gods eyes, yet He broke a few of the Levitical Laws.

 

And so did Jesus by working on the Sabbath, telling people not to observe the levitical law of prohibiting the consumption of meat, letting a woman go because of Adultary, and teaching his disciples about blood rituals.

 

 

Alot of people talk about the OT and say that it was contridictive to the Gospel.

Moses said over thirty times in His time to love the Lord with all the heart, thy mind, and thy soul.

 

Yet, they didnt. Then another like Moses said the same thing. Yet, we dont listen.

 

The authors of the OT also repeatingly say to follow the all the law if you claim to follow god. Do you follow them all?

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quote=FormerSamurai,Oct 11 2005, 05:43 PM]

The way I see it, God (if God exists) could legitimately be accused of negligence. Observe:

 

3.) Knowing that, God also knew that Satan would take the form of a serpant and sneak (?!!) into God's perfect garden.

 

 

C) God was negligent in 1 - creating Satan, 2 - creating Satan with the ability to disobey God, 3 - creating humanity, 4 - creating the tree of knowledge, 5 - creating humanity with the ability of disobeying God.

 

Personally, I can go either way on answer A or C. I lean more towards C, though.

 

This is, of course, providing that God, in fact, exists.

 

 

That is just a speculation of the NT. The devil as the NT potrays is nowhere mention in the OT nor in Gensis. God clearly says he creates good and evil.

 

Let's Take A Look At Satan

 

Was Satan Really A Rebel And Fallen Angel? [

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Hans,

 

I want to thank you for those questions that really have substance. Most of the time people pawn me out to a certain sect of Christianity and dismiss anything I say. I am just a guy that had a undenying experience with God, and I like to discuss others thoughts about God.

You're welcome. Even if I personally don't believe in any gods anymore, I still find belief and religion an interesting topic, and I realize that faith is very personal, even for Christians. Which makes every Christian unique in his mindset. And there's always new things to learn.

 

In the Ot, God was removing this group of paganistic people and proclaiming them His. He gave them their Laws. In regards to the blood, think about what was just said. The soul is possesed in the blood.

 

Paganistic. The people of that time where much more than Paganistic people, they were mad, craved, roaming brutes. According to the Ot, the blood of animals was a craving to them. They in one instance rebelled and began eating animals uncooked.

Wouldn't this make it even worse, that God actually craves blood too? The Pagans craving blood, as "evil" and "sinful" humans, and God copy-cat the whole idea, and craves blood too!

 

My argument is: where is the logic or reason to why a blood sacrifice in any circumstance would pay for anything or mean anything spiritual? I know the background to the blood sacrifice in OT, which is the covenant. God made a covenant with Abraham, and blood was the symbol of it. That's how you signed the "contract". Hence a blood brother is not the same as a biological brother.

 

In this light, Jesus death was a blood covenant, which is a better illustration than a blood sacrifice. The reason is that blood sacrifice was a pagan ritual, borrowed by the Jews into their religion. While a blood covenant was a social and cultural ritual, and had nothing to do with pleasing the gods.

 

Now, with this in mind, Jesus blood was to lock in and sign the contract, the blood covenant, between God and man. A blood covenant is binding, regardless of the actions of either party. It can't be broken, even if one of the parties refuse to accept it's validity. This means that Jesus salvation is for all men, without any requirements to ask for it, or even believe in it. God has written with his own blood on the contract, and it's binding.

 

The conclusion is that if this story is true, we don't have to accept Jesus to be saved. God has to save us, even if it is against our will.

 

Jesus also said that many of the Laws given to Moses was because of the hardness of the peoples hearts of that time. Their are many scripture that give clarity , for me, that God did what He did for a reason.

The problem I have with God's plan is that he waited so long, and had the Church screw up his message, so 99% of humanity is lost according to the Bible. Most people before NT are lost. And most people between 1 CE until 1600 CE are lost too. It all comes down to that God failed miserably to bring back people to his presence.

 

It's not a good enough argument to say that "God had his reasons, unknown to us", as an explanation for why he would let and still letting the majority of people go to eternal punishment. In his infinite wisdom, he could have worked out a better plan.

 

It's more likely, if God exists, that all and everything will be saved, or nothing will be saved. The whole "salvation" story is just a ploy to test us, to see if we can figure out what's really going on, and see beyond ourself and our small fantasy religions, and start accepting and respecting each other instead. If there's any truth to the story of Jesus, there is one detail that is most important of all, love your neighbor as yourself.

 

Remeber, if all is all and correct according to the Bible, Israel still stands today as Gods consecrated. These people were formed for more reasons than we could propbualy count.

 

The most confusing and curious parts to me about the whole Bible are the thought patterns and decisions that God partook in. David and His relationship with God was very enlightening to me. David was right according to the Bible in Gods eyes, yet He broke a few of the Levitical Laws.

A few? I'd say every single "hero" in OT broke many laws. They lied, stole, murdered, raped, cheated on their wifes...

 

And that's part of the point of OT, to show how bad and fallible these people were. Like Paul says, it was to prove that no man can follow the law. You can't become righteous through your own actions. That was the idea of Jesus, but then again, why do we have to still act to be saved? We still have to "believe". But then if you take the direction that "faith" comes from God, it's given to us, and not by our own actions, how come then some of us actually lost our faith, not intentionally, but just lost it, and asked God for faith, but didn't get it. It only means (if God exists) that he doesn't intend for some of us to be saved. Was Calvin right? We are predestined to be saved or not? God makes some for salvation and some for destruction, and its not our choice? Then the question is, what the hell did we do wrong to deserve the punishment then?

 

I know that being a former Christian you have probualy heard this alot. The world has not received Him ever since the beginning. Then and now, we continue to rebell to our own thoughts and conclusions and ways.

What is "our own thoughts?" The whole Bible is written by people that put their own thoughts about God into print. Is the true faith to give up your thoughts, and then buy into and swallow someone elses "own thoughts?" Is that how God intents faith and holiness to be? We give up our own, but take up someone elses human ideas, and that's enough to be saved?

 

The opinion that the World hasn't receieved him from the beginning is only an opinion by a writer some thousands years ago. What validity does it have? Why do you give trust to a person you really don't know and never knew? Are you sure the author knew what he was talking about?

 

Alot of people talk about the OT and say that it was contridictive to the Gospel.

Moses said over thirty times in His time to love the Lord with all the heart, thy mind, and thy soul.

 

Yet, they didnt. Then another like Moses said the same thing. Yet, we dont listen.

So do you love the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul? If you say no, you're in big trouble, just like us.

 

Hans

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Where?  Please give scripture to back up your statement. The gospels never have jesus saying that...period.  The author of hebrews said that, not the gospel writers.

 

Yo-yo is so badly outnumbered and outclassed here, I'm going to come to his aid.

 

Words attributed to "Jesus" in Matthew chapter 19 - moses allowed you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard.

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I dunno... I figure we can never all agree one the same things.. the last time that happened, we built a Tower...

 

If we ever all got together again, the same thing would happen. It's a useless battle.

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I dunno... I figure we can never all agree one the same things.. the last time that happened, we built a Tower...

 

I'm curious where the remains of that tower are.

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I'm more curious why God was so against them, they were searching for the understanding of God, building a temple and speaking one language, and they were living in peace. It was the perfect time to have your godly son go down as a man and be killed, and save whole humanity. Or not even that, just go down as a thunder and storm on a mountain and speak to them, so all of them would believe in the same God! Why break them up, so he later had to bring them together?

 

Besides, the language and culture barrier is part of why we have so many wars. So God is directly responsible for all the wars and all the crimes and all the misunderstandings we have in the world. So why should God judge us? He made it this way!

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I'm more curious why God was so against them, they were searching for the understanding of God, building a temple and speaking one language, and they were living in peace.

 

He was pissed off because they were trying to formulate their own plan for getting to know him. Trying to build a tower so that they could peek over the firmament and get a glimpse of the dude. Same mentality that brings us biblical revelation.

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I'm more curious why God was so against them, they were searching for the understanding of God, building a temple and speaking one language, and they were living in peace. It was the perfect time to have your godly son go down as a man and be killed, and save whole humanity. Or not even that, just go down as a thunder and storm on a mountain and speak to them, so all of them would believe in the same God! Why break them up, so he later had to bring them together?

 

Besides, the language and culture barrier is part of why we have so many wars. So God is directly responsible for all the wars and all the crimes and all the misunderstandings we have in the world. So why should God judge us? He made it this way!

 

Just goes to show you how mythilogical this story is. Just like any other mythology the storyies come about to try to explain things that don't make sense to the pre literate mind.

 

People look around and see all the other countries speaking different languages, and they develop this story to explain it. After a few hundred years people forget it was just a story and start to believe it really happened that way. Wait a few more hundred years and people are calling you demon possesed for not believing it :grin:

 

This passage from fiction, to fact, to dogma, can be observed in almost all relgious traditions

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