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Goodbye Jesus

Teach both Theories


Celsus

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So, because something happens to come up somewhere and someone mentions it, that makes them an idiot?  That's an odd way of looking at things.

 

No but when the same person does nothing but pot shots at me whenever we are involved in the same thread...... What I did was no different.

 

Which begs the question, "Why allow ID to be taught if you don't believe in it?"

 

I did say to teach it in with the other "myths".

 

 

Open yer damn eyes.  Everywhere you look, especially on this site, you'll see Christians with agendas screaming about TEH EBIL SECULAR GAWDLESS HEATHEN SCIENTISTS.  It doesn't change, and it certainly doesn't hide in some obscure corner of the news, so why aren't you seeing it?

 

Did you not understand his post? He stated that I thought that there was a scientist conspiracy. Did you forget to read that as well? Or are you not able to put 2 and 2 together

 

God, get over yourself, you mouthy little bitch.  By your "logic", nothing we know matters since it could all change tomorrow.  By that "reasoning", we may as well just give up on science, education, medicine, law... hell, everything short of Wheel of Fortune (since Wheel of Fortune doesn't require any real knowledge).

 

As far as the mouthy bitch goes!! Damn RIGHT. Ms. Bitch to you cunt. After all I learned from the queen.

 

As far as the rest of your ramblings...... you are going from one extreme to another. Do you not know that there is alot inbetween? If not let me tell you.

 

There's a reason we have science - to find out what we can know in the here and now.  It might change later, but hopefully we'll get some answers anyhow.

 

That goes against the entire thread itself. Evolution is about the past. Yes I know we need to learn about the past in order to know more about the present. But still that is not here and now.

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There are a lot of people here who are sensitive to the whole ID thing.  ID is religion in disguise (except it's a sheep in wolves clothing) and regardless of whether you don't know, what you should know is that ID is not science.  It doesn't matter if it should be taught or not...it's not a subject of scientific thought, therefore it shouldn't be equated as a science. 

 

It's always best to say "I don't know", it's better than saying "Evolution is wrong because science always changes".

 

Back to intellegent conversation. I do not believe that ID is correct nor do I think that it should be taught in science. Like I had stated before: I had an Sr. english class that was geared towards "ancient religions" that ID should be taught there. As a myth.

 

No, I do not believe in evolution either. What do I believe? Nothing yet!!! Still reading and learning.

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That goes against the entire thread itself. Evolution is about the past. Yes I know we need to learn about the past in order to know more about the present. But still that is not here and now.

 

Not necessarily...Evolution is about the past, present, and future.

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The shit has just hit the fan.... :eek:

:lmao:

....*hopes they start fighting and rip each others clothes off.

 

 

As far as the mouthy bitch goes!! Damn RIGHT. Ms. Bitch to you cunt. After all I learned from the queen.

 

You two both know I'm a guy, right?

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Not necessarily...Evolution is about the past, present, and future.

 

 

I know that. I was going by her statement that it is only for the here and now.

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You two both know I'm a guy, right?

 

Ok then, DICK!!

 

I could get into a discussion of how men like you don't like strong women and do not think that we should voice our opinion and such..... but that is for another day!!

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Ok then, DICK!!

 

I could get into a discussion of how men like you don't like strong women and do not think that we should voice our opinion and such..... but that is for another day!!

 

And you'd be an idiot for saying so.

 

Want proof? Try asking this member about me.

 

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some non-misandrist assholes to deal with.

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You two both know I'm a guy, right?

 

Hehehe, the sailor moon chick in your avatar kinda threw me off.

 

How would I know you're a dude? It's not like we have internet penises.

 

:lmao::woohoo:

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Yep, if such a claim was made, which it was not. I said that most rebuplicans were christian. or do you not know that there is a lot more inbetween atheist and christian? It wouldn't surprise me. You are the same one who claims that anything that is "morally" not right by christians is because they are scared of such.

 

Who do you classify as christian? Everyone who makes the claim but hasn't been to church EVER? Because their parents were christian they use the label the same way I would say I was white. It is just a label not real life.

 

There were so many different reasons to vote that had nothing to do with religion. You just can't accept that there are those of us who believe in such things. Or that if we don't vote your way or think your way then we must be stupid.

 

You are a fascist!! You believe that you are always right and everybody MUST agree with you.

 

Star,

 

I'm sure you're an enjoyable person in real life, but -- for me -- it's difficult to have a rational conversation with someone who thinks both white and black are the only TRUE colors, and so is gray -- but, that you also believe that none of them are best. For you, everything is true, and everything is wrong, and not only that, everything is in-between.

 

There are many people here that I disagree with on politics -- I'm not here because I'm a liberal, I'm here because I'm an atheist. Should I hate all the disagree with me? No, and I don't. When the occasion arises, I like to argue -- and while there are disagreements and heated arguments, I tend to RESPECT those (even on the "other side") that can put together a rational argument.

 

Now, does that mean I hate and disrespect those that can't hold their own with rational arguments, etc.? Absolutely not -- which is why I've said that I'm sure you're a very nice pleasant person. I also doubt that you're really stupid -- I'm sure you're reasonably intelligent. What dismays me, though, is why anyone who can't speak two sentences without contradicting themselves would want to argue with anyone else -- and then flail around as if you were the most intelligent person on the board (which, btw, you're not -- but, neither am i. Difference = I don't pretend to be).

 

Here's what you've said in the past:

 

God? Once again you are using the old stereo type that all or most republicans are christians. They are not. A good number are but not most. Most of my aunts, uncles, and my grandmother are catholic and they also voted for Kerry. My husband, and his family are NOT christian (nor am I) and we are all republicans.
(emphasis mine -- but I did NOT change one word, character or space in the part I quoted)

 

To me, with my rudimentary understanding of the English, this means to me that you don't believe that the voting base of the GOP is mostly Christian -- a matter of fact that most people who can scribble in boxes on election day already take for granted. If you choose not to believe it -- that's fine . . . broadcasting it to the world as Truth , well . . . it doesn't do a lot toward convincing the rest of us that you're connected the real world in a coherent manner.

 

Of course, you may have meant something entirely different -- which apparently you tried to explain in the post I'm now responding to -- but that's the thing with you, no one really has any idea what you mean when you say ANYTHING, because you generally come back and say something different, and belittle anyone that didn't figure that out the first time.

 

Anyway, I don't hate you -- I love you as a person, and I support your right to speak freely. However, expect ridicule when your arguments start going all over the place.

Hugs and Kisses!

 

P.S. I fully expect you to make about five posts explaining why I'm such a shit-head. Don't worry -- I love you anyway!!!

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Star,

 

I'm sure you're an enjoyable person in real life, but -- for me -- it's difficult to have a rational conversation with someone who thinks both white and black are the only TRUE colors, and so is gray -- but, that you also believe that none of them are best.  For you, everything is true, and everything is wrong, and not only that, everything is in-between.

 

I know that there is alot of grey area. But for me the grey area isn't fake or factual. I know that they are, but I can't seem to get out what I want to say. Grey is that area where I put things that I am not sure about. I do not believe that evolution is factual. But see, I am able to acknowlege that I can be totally wrong. That is why it is in the grey. See, just because I do not believe that something is a fact, I do not say that it is false. It is still in the grey area.

 

For me a lot of the liberal propaganda that is going around has not be proven. And yes it would take facts to change my mind.

 

There are reasons for this. I grew up being told "this is what is" and there wasn't any discussion in it. I look back now and I wonder how stupid I was to just go with the flow and not just with christians or such. I was a lonely person who would believe any and every thing that I was told just so that I would others would like me. I have been told so many different things from so many different people that I need to find out for myself what I believe as opposed to what others believe. Only that way will I be able to know that is authenic and unique for me. Make sense? So I have become very opinonated and resistant to anybody who tries to tell me what is what and that I am stupid because of what I think or how I believe. Contrary to what you think, I do not get all of my news from FOX. I take my time to look up the facts and I based my decisions on that, not what I hear from one place.

 

There are many people here that I disagree with on politics -- I'm not here because I'm a liberal, I'm here because I'm an atheist.  Should I hate all the disagree with me?  No, and I don't.  When the occasion arises, I like to argue -- and while there are disagreements and heated arguments, I tend to RESPECT those (even on the "other side") that can put together a rational argument.

 

My only problem with you is that you took pot shots at my charater and got personal when I was simply showing my side and why I believe that way. There was no need for you to get personal.

 

Now, does that mean I hate and disrespect those that can't hold their own with rational arguments, etc.?  Absolutely not -- which is why I've said that I'm sure you're a very nice pleasant person.  I also doubt that you're really stupid -- I'm sure you're reasonably intelligent.  What dismays me, though, is why anyone who can't speak two sentences without contradicting themselves would want to argue with anyone else -- and then flail around as if you were the most intelligent person on the board (which, btw, you're not -- but, neither am i.  Difference = I don't pretend to be).

 

Oh, come on. I know that I am not the most well read person here, nor am I the least. But you come off just as opinionated and arogant as I do. Admit it. The difference is I do not come across as if everyone else is stupid or that their opinions are not valid as you do. You are so passive agressive that you like to take shots at people's back when I say it bluntly.

Example:

Can't put two sentences together without contradicting myself? And now we are back at potshots. You say that different opinons are ok with you, but then you purposly twist words around to make your point. I hate fake shit like that. Just so like the christians I knew.

 

 

 

To me, with my rudimentary understanding of the English, this means to me that you don't believe that the voting base of the GOP is mostly Christian -- a matter of fact that most people who can scribble in boxes on election day already take for granted.  If you choose not to believe it -- that's fine . . . broadcasting it to the world as Truth , well . . . it doesn't do a lot toward convincing the rest of us that you're connected the real world in a coherent manner.

 

blah blah blah, more cheap shots.

 

Of course, you may have meant something entirely different -- which apparently you tried to explain in the post I'm now responding to -- but that's the thing with you, no one really has any idea what you mean when you say ANYTHING, because you generally come back and say something different, and belittle anyone that didn't figure that out the first time.

 

The only people I belittle are those, such as yourself, who try to belittle me over what I believe. Seems funny that you are the only one (with the exception of vulgar, but again she started that one) who thinks that I belittle them is you and the few christians who come here preaching their bible without even knowing what it actually says. You are the only one who seems to have a problem with me. You, and hell what do you expect after your comments to me? That I will just sit here and take it? Get over yourself, it is not going to happen.

 

Anyway, I don't hate you -- I love you as a person, and I support your right to speak freely.

 

Oh vey, you are now sounding like a christian. Keep the fake shit to yourself, it is not welcome here. You don't take potshots because you don't agree with what I say and then pull that bullshit. :shrug:

 

However, expect ridicule when your arguments start going all over the place.

 

Just because you aren't smart enough to put two and two together much less understand straight talk is no reason to try and belittle me. :lmao::lmao:

 

 

P.S.  I fully expect you to make about five posts explaining why I'm such a shit-head.  Don't worry -- I love you anyway!!!

 

What? Like all I think about and have time for is you? Get over yourself, you are not that important to me. I save that for people who are intellegent and real.

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I know that there is alot of grey area. But for me the grey area isn't fake or factual. I know that they are, but I can't seem to get out what I want to say. Grey is that area where I put things that I am not sure about. I do not believe that evolution is factual. But see, I am able to acknowlege that I can be totally wrong. That is why it is in the grey. See, just because I do not believe that something is a fact, I do not say that it is false. It is still in the grey area.

 

Okay . . . you wanna have a real conversation? Look at what you said that I made bold. To take this sentence "factually" means you believe that evolution is false . . . it doesn't say that you don't feel evolution has yet discovered everything -- it says you believe that evolution is a lie.

 

For me a lot of the liberal propaganda that is going around has not be proven. And yes it would take facts to change my mind.

 

And this statement INFERS (look it up) that you believe that evolution is a purposeful lie -- by the left wing. You talk about me not backing shit up . . . what data do you have that alludes to political left-wingers manipulating the work of scientists whose work continually supports evolution? Scientists, I'm sure, hate politicians as much as non-scientists do (doesn't everybody), but scientists -- by nature of their work -- are seeking out facts based on what they know, not sitting around rolling the dice, or asking Chairman Dean what he thinks.

 

If I were to wager, I'd bet that most people on this forum (while socially tolerant), are economically conservative -- I'm probably the furthest left on the forum. And 99.9% here accept (conditionally) most of science's educated presumptions about the nature of our planet. How in the hell -- please explain -- could evolution simply be a matter of liberal propaganda?

 

My only problem with you is that you took pot shots at my charater and got personal when I was simply showing my side and why I believe that way. There was no need for you to get personal.

 

If want to step into an argument, and then walk away with your feelings hurt (and taking things personally), then go ahead. I don't know you personally, but I'm not going to take it easy with someone who purposefully engages in a heated discussion on the off chance they'll get their feeling hurt. I take it and I give it -- as do a lot of people.

 

Nothing I say to you is "personal." To assert otherwise is bullshit, and an attempt from you to gain sympathy here.

 

You dish it out quite caustically, sister. I'm not sure why you're crying about "character" and "getting personal."

 

Oh, come on. I know that I am not the most well read person here, nor am I the least. But you come off just as opinionated and arogant as I do. Admit it. The difference is I do not come across as if everyone else is stupid or that their opinions are not valid as you do. You are so passive agressive that you like to take shots at people's back when I say it bluntly.

 

I know that I'm a smart-ass, and I don't apologize for it. I do have strong opinions, and I give them often, though I do try to restrain myself when it's not appropriate. Funeral = not appropriate, Science Vs. Religion discussion forum = I think it's appropriate? Maybe I'm wrong -- someone else correct me.

 

I'm not calling you stupid, and I can't deign to speak about other people's opinions of you or I. Most people here are extraordinarily nice around here . . . so, I don't know what they think about either of us. And there are other conservatives here that I argue with occasionally . . . and I don't have THIS conversation with them.

 

Example:

Can't put two sentences together without contradicting myself? And now we are back at potshots. You say that different opinons are ok with you, but then you purposly twist words around to make your point. I hate fake shit like that. Just so like the christians I knew.

 

This is what I'm talking about "getting your feelings hurt." I wasn't taking a pot shot, I am making a factual observation. You often make a declarative statement, and then say the exact opposite (sometimes in the same paragraph), and I have proved it with quotes time after time.

 

When you're called on it, you say people are "putting words in your mouth." Well if that's true -- then you're putting words in my mouth. Two can play the duality game.

 

Perhaps, if you want to be more clearly understood, open a word processor, write out what you have to say, take ten breaths, and erase the "emotional" responses, and edit for consistency. It works for me . . . sometimes (sometimes the "add reply" button is just tooooo tempting. LOL!). Copy. Paste.

 

You want to know what I think of you? I don't think you propose your arguments with much thought: it's just spew on, spew off. That's the entirety off my opinion of you. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with your point-of-view. I don't hate you. I don't even know who you are. Why in the heck would I hate you?

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I do not believe that evolution is factual. But see, I am able to acknowlege that I can be totally wrong. That is why it is in the grey. See, just because I do not believe that something is a fact, I do not say that it is false. It is still in the grey area.

 

Hey midnight, I wonder why you feel that Evolution should be in a Gray area?

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If you do not believe something has a basis in fact, then you are saying it is false.

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If you do not believe something has a basis in fact, then you are saying it is false.

 

Not exactly. Until something has been proven to me to be a fact, in my mind it is not. That does not mean that I am not wrong, it simply means that it hasnt' been proven to me.

 

When some of the people here started their deconvertions, did they believe that God was fact? Or did they start looking to see what was fact? When did they believe that god was false? When they started looking or when they found their answers? Wasn't there a time when you started to question when god was false but you weren't sure enough to claim that god was no longer a fact and was instead false? This is the grey area I am talking about. The area where you just aren't sure enough to believe that it was factual, but past the point where you can say that it is false.

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You act as if you are talking for this entire forum. That is not true. The single common denominator here is you! Nobody else in this discussion has a problem with me but you (and some unknown, to me at least whos only problem was the way I responded you and your personal attacks.

 

By claiming that they aren't there shows just how young and stupid you really are. What you do is called leveling. Don't worry, I will spell it out for you.

 

 

This happens when one person has a low self-esteem and in order to make himself look like "big man on campus" he must first try and bring down the other person as opposed to rising up to their level.

 

When you are not capable of understanding others or when you have nothing to prove your words, you resort to personal and emotional attacks. You twist words and "purposely (?)" act as if you don't understand what is being said. You are the only one who has stated that they have a hard time understand what I post. You and you alone. This and this alone should tell you something.

 

Your incapacity to grasp what is being said and shy only shows your ignorance. I am sure that this is obvious to everyone else here. I suggest that you learn how to debate and have a discussion without your emotions ruling you. Until you are capable of doing so, you will never be able to grow or show any kind of intellegence. Until then, you are on ignore.

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Not exactly. Until something has been proven to me to be a fact, in my mind it is not. That does not mean that I am not wrong, it simply means that it hasnt' been proven to me.

 

But you're missing the point. Evolutionary Theory is a theory, and is factual, meaning that it uses facts in order to explain how things work.

 

Evolution: The change in the frequency of alleles in a gene pool over time. This is a fact.

 

Fossils are facts, ERV's are facts.

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We shall see. Look, I like you and value your opinions, but until I learn for myself (and yes that includes your on-going debate) I can not claim it as being factual. Who knows? Maybe by the time the debate is over with I will have changed my mind, maybe not!!

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We shall see. Look, I like you and value your opinions, but until I learn for myself (and yes that includes your on-going debate) I can not claim it as being factual. Who knows? Maybe by the time the debate is over with I will have changed my mind, maybe not!!

 

I had no clue about Evolution about 6 or 7 years ago, which was when I started goin on Christian forums. I stumbled upon it because of the Project Steve.

 

Then I read this:

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html

 

I think this provides a great summation about evolution and what it is.

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Ok, got it, printed it and I hope you are going to be ready to answer 100 questions before this is over. Being 14 pages it may take a couple of days to read and study so that my questions can be well thought out and "intelligent".

 

 

Hey, Asimov,

 

Thank you,

Deb

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Ok, got it, printed it and I hope you are going to be ready to answer 100 questions before this is over. Being 14 pages it may take a couple of days to read and study so that my questions can be well thought out and "intelligent".

Hey, Asimov,

 

Thank you,

Deb

 

Ask away anytime.

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You act as if you are talking for this entire forum. That is not true.  The single common denominator here is you! Nobody else in this discussion has a problem with me but you (and some unknown, to me at least whos only problem was the way I responded you and your personal attacks.

 

By claiming that they aren't there shows just how young and stupid you really are. What you do is called leveling. Don't worry, I will spell it out for you.

This happens when one person has a low self-esteem and in order to make himself look like "big man on campus" he must first try and bring down the other person as opposed to rising up to their level.

 

When you are not capable of understanding others or when you have nothing to prove your words, you resort to personal and emotional attacks. You twist words and "purposely (?)" act as if you don't understand what is being said. You are the only one who has stated that they have a hard time understand what I post. You and you alone. This and this alone should tell you something.

 

Your incapacity to grasp what is being said and shy only shows your ignorance. I am sure that this is obvious to everyone else here. I suggest that you learn how to debate and have a discussion without your emotions ruling you. Until you are capable of doing so, you will never be able to grow or show any kind of intellegence. Until then, you are on ignore.

 

Perhaps you are making the intelligent choice here. Out of sympathy, I will no longer participate in your delusions of persecution.

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I do not believe that evolution is factual. But see, I am able to acknowlege that I can be totally wrong. That is why it is in the grey. See, just because I do not believe that something is a fact, I do not say that it is false. It is still in the grey area.

 

Midnight, I have a problem accepting that you don't believe evolution is factual. It could be that you simply don't understand it. I have not made the effort of looking into the theory, and that is why I side with the scientists. I can understand the 5 dollar words, but to even read a summary on evolution is not enough for me to say I am educated enough to decide whether or not I believe it.

 

I think it is disrespectful for people to just blurt out their belief or lack of beliefs. Scientists sacrifice their entire careers to make tiny achievements in the name of knowledge. They go years beyond college, and some of them even get multiple MDs and PhDs in different areas of science so that they understand and can make QUALIFIED arguments for or against any theory.

 

They work for years on monotonous experiments to understand the world better. We do not. If you don't believe in Evolution you have to state why. If you can't do so at least have the respect for knowledge to say you lack any on this particular topic.

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I mean this with all sincerity SurelyMermaid but I don't see how you can accuse Midnight as just "blurting out" and being disrespectful, especially with the wording of her post.  Not only that but she has opened up in a teachable way to Asimov.  I have a great respect for those in the scientific community but yet with all those brains and extra-schooling and PHD's there are numerous disagreements, amongst themselves.

 

Serenity;

 

But, even surely you agree that there is a difference between agreeing on the specifics and agreeing on the generalities? The "feathers" argument is a very specific issue -- it doesn't throw a wrench into the argument of whether or not evolution took place. "Evolution" is not up in the air -- it is a matter of consensus in the scientific community. Feathers . . . well, there's still some work to do there. But, to allude that evolution is just a matter of liberal propaganda (as some have suggested), or just another matter of illogical dogma is pure bull -- and I think you'd agree with that.

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