Best Single Fact To Refute Creationism

[Ouroboros]

I don't know that I have an issue with evolution...nor has it caused be angst for some reason. I tend to view the creation stories as more representations of what happened. I realize Christians aren't consistent in this regard, it just is. (I'm holding out that the two explanations to merge someday).

This is how I see it.

 

I know that evolution is true. I'm beyond doubt because of all the evidence I've read about.

 

When it comes to abiogenesis (the start of the first life, as opposed to evolution, life evolving from that point), I can't say how it happened. Here I can tell you, it's a belief on my part. I have no evidence, and you and I would be on the same foot here.

 

So from that, if you would say that you can accept evolution but still believe that God gave the first spark (theogenesis maybe is a good word), and that God guided evolution with a few pushes and pulls here and there, I would not argue with you. I can't say that you would be wrong or find proof against it.

 

Do you see what I'm saying? Let me put it this way:

 

Abiogenesis: you and I have different beliefs, and I can't prove to you that my belief is right. We are on the same standing here, pretty much, and I won't argue against your belief. I can only inform you what I think supports my belief, but I can't give any convincing argument. And it goes both ways. Agreed?

 

Evolution: that's what happened after abiogenesis. The evidence is so incredible strong here. I've read several books, and I'm talking a class in this topic. Honestly, I can't un-believe this. It's so overwhelming. Take all the so called evidence for Jesus and Christianity. Make it all scientific and observable. Make it testable. Test it thousands of times. Find millions of pieces of evidence that all supports it. And then do the same in many different fields of science and they all agree on the same thing and line up perfectly. Then multiply it with a thousand. Now you're getting close to how overwhelming the evidence is. If Christianity is true because of some half-concoction of evidences, evolution is million times more supported. So if you can agree on that, I'm good. If you don't, I can only consider you very ignorant. You might agree on evolution but hold the view that God helped it on the way, I would be okay with that too. Agreed?

[Guest end3]

So End, if we find life on other planets/moons elsewhere outside Earth, how would you process that with your beliefs?

 

Truthfully, I would probably bias the finding in light of my experience and beliefs. In other words, I would most likely rationalize creation being a function by God, where ever it exists....evidenced by the bible story of course, having not shot at a cherob or seraph whilst hunting on earth.

Fair enough. Personally I would be stunned and amazed if life were not prolifically strewn throughout the universe. I would not be one bit surprised to hear news of such a discovery. My response would be, "That's really fantastic! Not unexpected at all." It would make me feel even more connected with the Universe, and it with me.

 

I mean, even viewed in a theistic light, why would the creation of life be limited to you and your little home in the Milky Way, all alone in the billions and billions of galaxies, and trillions and trillions and trillions of stars and planets? Seriously, doesn't it seem almost a little silly to imagine that it's all about a few humans on earth who lived within the past 10,000 years, as opposed to the 14.5 billion years of this Universe and the trillions upon trillions upon trillions of emerged forms of matter and biology that are likely everywhere in the Universe; not just in space but in time? To me, being a shining diamond amongst the trillions that exist, makes our significance all the much more glorious. The universe if full of beauty and we are that beauty in ourselves! Now that, to me is incredibly religious!

 

How much more glorious is that, to be part of that, than that it's all about you and getting your sin problems under addressed so you can live forever after you die? You see? Eyes opened to the glory that is; that is us.

 

I was just trying to say that the bible mentions different beings that we have not experienced. But my example was, that finding a planet with some life form would be the same as finding a planet ihabited by seraphs.......all under the heading "Goddidit". That's just my bias.

 

I agree that the beauty part is there, but that it is fragile and can be eliminated at our convenience, much like an asteroid slamming into earth.

[Antlerman]

I tend to view the creation stories as more representations of what happened. I realize Christians aren't consistent in this regard, it just is. (I'm holding out that the two explanations to merge someday).

It's simplest to understand creation stories as origin myths. They really aren't about imparting a scientific understanding of historical events. Those are really more just backdrops for the story, which has the message about a particular people and the origins, what makes them special, sets them apart, and so forth. If they are meant as literal historical records of actual earth-events, then the redactors were awfully stupid to put two creation myths together which chronicle the events at different days. The easiest explanation is that they didn't see that as a factor. And if not, why not?

 

I do think you can in fact glean truths out of Genesis, but it sure isn't by looking to it to inform us about history and science! It expresses aspects of the human struggle, and so forth. Entirely different than matters of science.

[Ouroboros]

Fair enough. Personally I would be stunned and amazed if life were not prolifically strewn throughout the universe. I would not be one bit surprised to hear news of such a discovery. My response would be, "That's really fantastic! Not unexpected at all." It would make me feel even more connected with the Universe, and it with me.

I think they found some amino acids in some meteors once, but I'm not sure.

 

I mean, even viewed in a theistic light, why would the creation of life be limited to you and your little home in the Milky Way, all alone in the billions and billions of galaxies, and trillions and trillions and trillions of stars and planets?

That's right.

 

Just imagine that one of the largest galaxies we know about, IC 1101, alone has 100 trillion stars. It's size is something like a million times larger than our galaxy! The chances of life increases with a million just in that galaxy.

 

Seriously, doesn't it seem almost a little silly to imagine that it's all about a few humans on earth who lived within the past 10,000 years, as opposed to the 14.5 billion years of this Universe and the trillions upon trillions upon trillions of emerged forms of matter and biology that are likely everywhere in the Universe; not just in space but in time? To me, being a shining diamond amongst the trillions that exist, makes our significance all the much more glorious. The universe if full of beauty and we are that beauty in ourselves! Now that, to me is incredibly religious!

Amen.

 

How much more glorious is that, to be part of that, than that it's all about you and getting your sin problems addressed satisfactorily so that you personally can live forever after you die? You see? Eyes opened to the glory that is; that is us.

Exactly.

 

Religion is way too much about "me, me, me" and "my salvation, me going to Heaven, me meeting God, God talking to me, I am special, and I live on a special planet, in a special galaxy, I'm so pretty, ain't I?" When it should be about us.

 

If a new religion should come about, it should focus on what needs to be done to help us. Humanity. Life. The planet. Do what is best for us now, not what is best for me when I die.

 

Religion is way to egotistic today.

[Ouroboros]

I was just trying to say that the bible mentions different beings that we have not experienced. But my example was, that finding a planet with some life form would be the same as finding a planet ihabited by seraphs.......all under the heading "Goddidit". That's just my bias.

Did Jesus die for them too?

 

I agree that the beauty part is there, but that it is fragile and can be eliminated at our convenience, much like an asteroid slamming into earth.

It would be very difficult to destroy the black hole in the center of our galaxy. You can slam a star into it, and it will only gulp it up for breakfast.

[Guest end3]

I don't know that I have an issue with evolution...nor has it caused be angst for some reason. I tend to view the creation stories as more representations of what happened. I realize Christians aren't consistent in this regard, it just is. (I'm holding out that the two explanations to merge someday).

This is how I see it.

 

I know that evolution is true. I'm beyond doubt because of all the evidence I've read about.

 

When it comes to abiogenesis (the start of the first life, as opposed to evolution, life evolving from that point), I can't say how it happened. Here I can tell you, it's a belief on my part. I have no evidence, and you and I would be on the same foot here.

 

So from that, if you would say that you can accept evolution but still believe that God gave the first spark (theogenesis maybe is a good word), and that God guided evolution with a few pushes and pulls here and there, I would not argue with you. I can't say that you would be wrong or find proof against it.

 

Do you see what I'm saying? Let me put it this way:

 

Abiogenesis: you and I have different beliefs, and I can't prove to you that my belief is right. We are on the same standing here, pretty much, and I won't argue against your belief. I can only inform you what I think supports my belief, but I can't give any convincing argument. And it goes both ways. Agreed?

 

Evolution: that's what happened after abiogenesis. The evidence is so incredible strong here. I've read several books, and I'm talking a class in this topic. Honestly, I can't un-believe this. It's so overwhelming. Take all the so called evidence for Jesus and Christianity. Make it all scientific and observable. Make it testable. Test it thousands of times. Find millions of pieces of evidence that all supports it. And then do the same in many different fields of science and they all agree on the same thing and line up perfectly. Then multiply it with a thousand. Now you're getting close to how overwhelming the evidence is. If Christianity is true because of some half-concoction of evidences, evolution is million times more supported. So if you can agree on that, I'm good. If you don't, I can only consider you very ignorant. You might agree on evolution but hold the view that God helped it on the way, I would be okay with that too. Agreed?

 

Yes, very much so.....that in a larger sense, the universe or god, dictates the outcome (and the description of that).....god's sovereign will vs. the "nature" of the universe. And yeah, evolution, what little I know about it, appears to be a slam dunk. I just believe that the universe was placed by God. That is the "god" concept for me through culture, that god is bigger that anything.

[Antlerman]

I was just trying to say that the bible mentions different beings that we have not experienced. But my example was, that finding a planet with some life form would be the same as finding a planet ihabited by seraphs.......all under the heading "Goddidit". That's just my bias.

Yeah, but you try to make them fit things in the Bible like it were hidden truths of science, you are totally setting yourself up for a crisis of faith. Seraphs? You mean, little shrimp like critters swimming about under the ice on Europa are Biblical angels??? Not a good approach to take there....

 

I agree that the beauty part is there, but that it is fragile and can be eliminated at our convenience, much like an asteroid slamming into earth.

What you don't think the creation of the moon would have been a marvelous wonder to behold? Seeing the earth fracture away into chunks which formed into our moon, which created the necessary gravitational forces in order to spin the earth into it's seasons, which the formation of life evolved in harmony with, that lead to our worlds as humans, light at night, the tides, and poems of beauty and love... that creation out of destruction is itself not beauty?

 

Or is it all about convenience to ourselves? A very vast, infinite expanse all centered on ME and my continuance into tomorrow, or life beyond my own death?

 

Want to know what salvation is? It's liberation from that mode of thought.

[Guest end3]

Did Jesus die for them too?

 

Good question.

 

It would be very difficult to destroy the black hole in the center of our galaxy. You can slam a star into it, and it will only gulp it up for breakfast.

 

Then how does it exist?

[Ouroboros]

Yes, very much so.....that in a larger sense, the universe or god, dictates the outcome (and the description of that).....god's sovereign will vs. the "nature" of the universe. And yeah, evolution, what little I know about it, appears to be a slam dunk. I just believe that the universe was placed by God. That is the "god" concept for me through culture, that god is bigger that anything.

And I'm good with that view.

[Guest end3]

Yeah, but you try to make them fit things in the Bible like it were hidden truths of science, you are totally setting yourself up for a crisis of faith. Seraphs? You mean, little shrimp like critters swimming about under the ice on Europa are Biblical angels??? Not a good approach to take there....

My first words spoke of my own bias.....do your words not speak of yours?

 

 

What you don't think the creation of the moon would have been a marvelous wonder to behold? Seeing the earth fracture away into chunks which formed into our moon, which created the necessary gravitational forces in order to spin the earth into it's seasons, which the formation of life evolved in harmony with, that lead to our worlds as humans, light at night, the tides, and poems of beauty and love... that creation out of destruction is itself not beauty?

 

Where did I give you the impression that I abhored natural beauty?

 

Or is it all about convenience to ourselves? A very vast, infinite expanse all centered on ME and my continuance into tomorrow, or life beyond my own death?

 

Want to know what salvation is? It's liberation from that mode of thought.

 

I actually agree that the manifestation of beauty/life is very much related to death. I just still maintain a residual fear of physical death as I would lose the ability to protect my children.

 

 

Edit: I would like you to please expand on the mechanism for "liberation from that mode of thought".

[Ouroboros]

Did Jesus die for them too?

 

Good question.

It is, isn't it.

 

What's worse is that these aliens could have such an odd culture where "sacrifice for someone's sins" can't be understood. They might have evolved so different than us, to the point where the concepts of sin, evil, salvation, etc won't work.

 

It would be very difficult to destroy the black hole in the center of our galaxy. You can slam a star into it, and it will only gulp it up for breakfast.

 

Then how does it exist?

Have you read anything about black holes?

 

They are super massive and super dense "rocks" with so much gravity that it even sucks in light. That's why they're considered black. It's the strongest force in the universe. It's so strong that the black hole at the center of our galaxy is pulling with it's gravitational force all the stars around. That's why we are in a galaxy. It's thanks to that black hole. It is keeping our star in orbit around itself just like our sun is keeping our Earth in orbit. (Inertia versus gravity)

 

I recommend that you watch some shows about space and astronomy. It's amazing. It's incredible. It's so unbelievable big and powerful that it can measure up with God anytime.

[Vigile]

I tend to look at it more like the weeds in my yard....one fleck of weed seed seems to somehow find footing.

 

That's an interesting observation and one I wonder about as well. I too would be curious/appreciative if someone could answer why other life forms that aren't related to current life forms don't find a foothold.

[JadedAtheist]

I tend to look at it more like the weeds in my yard....one fleck of weed seed seems to somehow find footing.

 

That's an interesting observation and one I wonder about as well. I too would be curious/appreciative if someone could answer why other life forms that aren't related to current life forms don't find a foothold.

 

A friend was telling me the other day that he came across a theory that spiders are actually alien life forms that have evolved. I've been meaning to ask him where he read it but since he is involved in biological studies et cetera I'm guessing it must be from some sort of credible source.