excalvinist Posted November 16, 2010 Posted November 16, 2010 I recieved a letter from my old Church today. They were actually responding to a letter I sent them. Of course they tell me I had some gross sin I was hiding, and that is why I left. And now I am doomed to hell forever. I would like everyone help with this one assertion. They say: Unbelief is a moral problem, not an intellectual one. Please offer your thoughts on this.
Ouroboros Posted November 16, 2010 Posted November 16, 2010 They say: Unbelief is a moral problem, not an intellectual one. That's a new one. I have never heard that before. They're saying that you have to believe to be moral, or that you have to be moral to believe. I think. How can it be a moral problem? If they try to argue why it is a moral problem, they would put it into a intellectual problem (by the fact they would have to argue). So it's just an assertion without basis. It's just a phrase without meaning. They could just as well have said, "unbelief is a political color of transfixed superposition in multidimensional overcooked frog-legs probabilities problem, not an intellectual one." And it would have made just as much sense. Perhaps you should ask them if it's a moral problem to believe in Santa Claus as well. If the don't believe in Santa Claus, does it mean they're immoral?
florduh Posted November 16, 2010 Posted November 16, 2010 They say: Unbelief is a moral problem, not an intellectual one. Then the implication is that they must have a moral problem because they don't believe in Scientology. The fact that it doesn't make any sense couldn't have anything to do with their inability to believe it. They are just too immoral to believe L. Ron Hubbard's truth. That's the dumbest thing for them to say. It's like they ran out of reasonable arguments and just picked that one out of their ass.
JadedAtheist Posted November 16, 2010 Posted November 16, 2010 When debating with my pastor he used/uses the same line. It's a moral problem not an intellectual one.
Ouroboros Posted November 16, 2010 Posted November 16, 2010 It's like they ran out of reasonable arguments and just picked that one out of their ass. Yes, they're arguing from bullshit. Argument ad bullshitting. Or perhaps we should call it crapology?
Godless Dave Posted November 16, 2010 Posted November 16, 2010 They're lying and trying to manipulate you. Any more questions?
Overcame Faith Posted November 17, 2010 Posted November 17, 2010 By saying unbelief is a moral problem, not an intellectual one, they are giving you two messages at once. Their first message is one of morality, as others have pointed out. They are saying that it is your immoral behavior or desires which prevent you from believing. So they mean for you to quell your desires to live a sinful life and rebel against god, and get back into the program and then your unbelief will be cured. The second message is that your unbelief is not an intellectual problem. In other words, the problem is not that you can't intellectually understand Christianity or the god concept or any of that, but your problem is one of unbelief. That is, unbelief, itself, is the problem and your intellect has nothing to do with that and, it in fact, gets in the way of belief. So they are telling you to lose any intellectual concerns you have and just believe. Combining the two messages, they are telling you that you are being led astray by your immoral desires which you have allowed to overcome your belief and that your intellectual search for the truth is, itself, a farce. They want you to discontinue your immoral desires and believe again. Now, how to respond? I think I would respond by saying something like: The intellectual pursuit of truth is the pinnacle of morality. 3
Guest I Love Dog Posted November 17, 2010 Posted November 17, 2010 I recieved a letter from my old Church today. They were actually responding to a letter I sent them. Of course they tell me I had some gross sin I was hiding, and that is why I left. And now I am doomed to hell forever. I would like everyone help with this one assertion. They say: Unbelief is a moral problem, not an intellectual one. Please offer your thoughts on this. Rubbish! Unbelief may be a moral problem for the church in that more and more people, by using their intellectual powers are seeing just what lies and falsehoods churches teach. That is their moral dilemma! If they teach the truth then people will leave the church in droves. If they teach lies then it's just a matter of time before people with good intellect see through them anyway. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't! If they are trying to tell you that you can't possibly use your intellectual powers to see right through them then they are insulting you!
excalvinist Posted November 17, 2010 Author Posted November 17, 2010 You dam right they are insulting me, and that is just how I took it. The thing about it is I did not leave because of wanting to commit some unmoral act. I was living a Good Christian life, I went to church, I believed the promises. They are also talking out both sides of there mouth as always because they are Calvinists. Even if I wanted to believe I couldn't. Unless you are one of the elect chosen before time your fucked.
oddbird1963 Posted November 17, 2010 Posted November 17, 2010 Christians are told that all the truths about god are so apparent and so clear and that the Holy Spirit works in the human heart draw people to himself so that anybody who says they do not believe must have a desire to sin and do evil. Unbelief is a decisive act of rebellion. It's not really unbelief. It's knowing the stuff is true, but refusing to acknowledge it's true. Unbelief is a delusion. It is not the honest inability to come to the affirmative conclusion about the claims of Christianity based on the evidence available. Of course it's hard to defend against the accusation that you are rebellious and desirous of perverse ends. And that's the advantage of that argument. It makes a straw man out of you personally and leaves the christian with the smug certainty that they have the moral and pure motives and you do no. That position keeps them from having to look critically at the faults systemic to their own theology and practice. Any objection you raise merely affirms what they maintain about you: You are rebellious and immoral. If you would just choose to do the right thing and believe, then it would all be clear to you. But no. Your arguments, protests and accusations of circular reasoning and contradictions just show that your heart is not right! It's further religious insulation from the real world.
Guest Valk0010 Posted November 17, 2010 Posted November 17, 2010 Cognitive thinking skills and moral cognitive abilities are similar but not the same. One could have a moral problem but not a intellectual one and vice versa. So the line of shit doesn't hold.
Albino_Raptor Posted November 17, 2010 Posted November 17, 2010 Dawkins gave that moral "argument" a beautiful Shoryuken right against the world religions' priests' chins: Ask them - if their god would not exist, would they start stealing, murdering, pillaging? No? Well then apparently god is not important for moral behaviour. Yes? Well then apparently you are more moral than them, not requiring the threat of divine punishment in order to behave civily.
excalvinist Posted November 17, 2010 Author Posted November 17, 2010 \ Unbelief is a delusion. It is not the honest inability to come to the affirmative conclusion about the claims of Christianity based on the evidence available. I agree, that's why it urks me to no end when a stupid ass Christian author writes a book telling you how they came to believe solely based on the best evidence, and how rational there faith is.
Dhampir Posted November 17, 2010 Posted November 17, 2010 I would suggest (to them), that it's not your place to prove anything about their assertions, and that you weren't the one that said anything to the effect that you "wanted to live immorally" or had some unconfessed sin, they did. If thinking these things comforts them in light of your departure, they are welcome to it, otherwise, they should contact you if and only if they want a respectful dialogue.
Vixentrox Posted November 17, 2010 Posted November 17, 2010 I recieved a letter from my old Church today. They were actually responding to a letter I sent them. Of course they tell me I had some gross sin I was hiding, and that is why I left. And now I am doomed to hell forever. I would like everyone help with this one assertion. They say: Unbelief is a moral problem, not an intellectual one. Please offer your thoughts on this. Is unbelief in Tooth Fairy a moral problem or intellectual one?
Jeremy Allen Posted November 17, 2010 Posted November 17, 2010 ...If thinking these things comforts them in light of your departure, they are welcome to it... As Dhampir suggests, their statement to you is more about them affirming their own worldview, than about you. Many believers are uncomfortable with the fact that their worldview rests on faith. They insist that their worldview is intellectually sound, as if it needed no faith. Consequently, they must see your objection to their worldview as a moral objection. For them to acknowledge an intellectual challenge to their worldview would force them to have an intellectual conversation about it, which they cannot do because that conversation would reveal that faith is central to their worldview, in spite of their deep desire that intellect be central to it. 1
Redeye_Reprisal Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 They say: Unbelief is a moral problem, not an intellectual one. I seem to recall this being a William Lane Craig quote, in reference to the supposed plethora of evidence in support of Christianity.
Redeye_Reprisal Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 Regardless, it's a simple re-branding of the "You don't believe in gawd n Jeezuz cuz you just wanna sin" line of argument, and should be dismissed as such.
AC Skeptic Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 My pastor pulled something similar on me when I was in the midst of decoverting. He implied all my questioning was rooted in a rebellion against Christ. . . . BUUUULLLL SHIT! My doubting was because it didn't appear to be true, just as he recognizes for every other religion on earth. Anyway, the answer is easy, tell them the only reason they don't accept Islam (or Mormonism, or Zeus) is because they have a moral problem and see if any light bulbs go off (doubtful).
excalvinist Posted November 19, 2010 Author Posted November 19, 2010 My pastor pulled something similar on me when I was in the midst of decoverting. He implied all my questioning was rooted in a rebellion against Christ. . . . BUUUULLLL SHIT! My doubting was because it didn't appear to be true, just as he recognizes for every other religion on earth. Anyway, the answer is easy, tell them the only reason they don't accept Islam (or Mormonism, or Zeus) is because they have a moral problem and see if any light bulbs go off (doubtful). I already went down that road as far why they don't accept Islam or any other religion. I challenged them to take "The Outsider Test for Faith" by John W Loftus. Of course "no light bulbs" went off as you so elegantly presuppose.
Albino_Raptor Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 "If I just wanted to live in sin, I would remain being a christian. Afterall, no matter with how much of a lack of morals I live my life as a christian, god will always forgive me. As an atheist though, I could live a life of perfect goodness - just because I do not believe in your god, I would still be thrown into hell. And yet *still* I cut off the infernal saftey net you so comfortably wallow in, by my own hand. Maybe that is something else you should spend a thought on. If you have the clarity of mind to do so. Quite frankly, I doubt that you do." That is my standard reply to the Jehovah fanboys giving me their "You just want to SIN!!!" spiel.
★ Citsonga ★ Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 They say: Unbelief is a moral problem, not an intellectual one. They are also talking out both sides of there mouth as always because they are Calvinists. Even if I wanted to believe I couldn't. Unless you are one of the elect chosen before time your fucked. Yep, they are talking out of both sides of their mouths, basically contradicting themselves. There must be a choice involved for it to be a moral issue. For example, I have Caucasian skin. I didn't choose to be Caucasian, that's just how I was born. I could not choose to be otherwise. Thus, having Caucasian skin cannot be a moral issue, because I have no control over it. The same could be said if I was of another race. It simply doesn't matter, because I can't choose. If belief/unbelief is predestined and the winner/victim has no decision in the matter, then it's impossible for it to be a moral issue. Holding someone accountable for something they have absolutely no control over is just plain stupid, irrational and unfair. You cannot be making an immoral decision on something you have no decision in. 1
Legion Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 Here's an angle.... Dear Church, You've said, "Unbelief is a moral problem, not an intellectual one." Although I can no longer sustain a belief in Christianity I still believe in treating others as I wish to be treated. I think that I ought to behave as I wish all people would behave. To my mind, this includes the cultivation in myself of a certain healthy degree of skepticism and curiousity. So in wishing that all people would ask questions of those things they hold as being true, I must do this myself. Having examined the religious beliefs of my youth I find that I am incapable of sustaining those beliefs. Seeing that I have only behaved as I wish all would behave, I am inclined to think that my current disbelief is a result of moral fulfillment.
mwc Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 I recieved a letter from my old Church today. They were actually responding to a letter I sent them. Of course they tell me I had some gross sin I was hiding, and that is why I left. And now I am doomed to hell forever. I would like everyone help with this one assertion. They say: Unbelief is a moral problem, not an intellectual one. Please offer your thoughts on this. It's an assertion not a proof. Who cares? I assert they're ass-clowns. Their words prove it. If you don't accept their belief system as authoritative then it makes no difference what they say about anything. Unbelief is a moral problem. Unbelief is an intellectual problem. Unbelief is a math problem. Unbelief is their problem since you're one less person they have authority and control over. Flip'em the bird and be happy. mwc
DayLight Posted December 3, 2010 Posted December 3, 2010 I recieved a letter from my old Church today. They were actually responding to a letter I sent them. Of course they tell me I had some gross sin I was hiding, and that is why I left. And now I am doomed to hell forever. I would like everyone help with this one assertion. They say: Unbelief is a moral problem, not an intellectual one. Please offer your thoughts on this. They are wrong. But some verses from the Bible could suggest this idea and that's probably where they got it from. One verse says: that people don't believe in God because they love darkness more than light (which is God). But it's not true in reality. Some very nice people (who don't like darkness) are not believers in God. Christians believe in the Bible verses against all odds. And they are encouraged to do that. They refuse to think and they continue to believe no matter how bad or nonsensical something is. So that's a recipe for producing confused people who don't know anything. The Bible has many contradictions in verses and ideas. And poor Christians are trying to make sense of all that and so they have confused themselves pretty badly. Unbelief is a genetic problem. It's how people are wired. Some people are wired to believe just about anything. Others are wired to not believe anything at all. Some believe all the commercials. Others are skeptical to all of them. And of course there are those in between. It's simply human programming, it's a mixture of genes, experiences, circumstances... It has nothing to do with religion. Those who are wired to believe things, will also believe in some religion. Those who are wired to not believe anything, will be the agnostics or atheists.
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