SirPhoenix Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 This just hit me today. There is never one mention in the entire OT of anyone being possessed by a demon. There are instances where Hebrew words are translated as demon, but no all out instances of possession. However, it seems suddenly with Jesus arrival that demonic possession if not a problem everyone had, was around, kind of like herpes. So where in the world did the idea of demonic possession come from? From the pagan religions of the time of course. How better to sell a new religion that to tell the people that you are selling it to that you'll be protected from the demons. Free thinking is fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyChef Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 The catholic babble has stories to the effect that demons were a product of sex between angels and man And this is supposed to be the "Truth" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 I often thought that very thing too! The NT is shown to be a product of thinking and belief not associated with Judaic religious beliefs. To me, the NT is a product of later church theology and doctrines, and written to support and validate these theologies and doctrines, one such being the doctrine and theology of demons and demonic possession. You are correct, no one needed so much as an exorcism in the OT but all of a sudden demonic possession in the time of the NT appears to be of epidemic proportions. If you don't want to be possessed by demons, get Iesus Christos in your soul! I could almost believe the entire NT was written during the Dark Ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asanerman Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 SirPhoenix, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovemybrain Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 Yep, there's no hell in the OT either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 Both Hell and Demons are thought by many scholars to have been concepts that Judaism absorbed from Bablyonian religion during the period when the were in captivity The only book in the OT to have the concepts is Daniel, which was written about 200 years after the end of the exile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 However, it seems suddenly with Jesus arrival that demonic possession if not a problem everyone had, was around, kind of like herpes. So where in the world did the idea of demonic possession come from? Demons were invented by the Imperial Roman government to kill the gays, and maybe other minorities they deemed undesirable, but it quickly spread into the straight population causing numerous unintended consequences. Fortunately, through the work of men like Jesus of Nazareth and his team of apostles, the spread of demons was quickly contained and largely eradicated. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 Both Hell and Demons are thought by many scholars to have been concepts that Judaism absorbed from Bablyonian religion during the period when the were in captivity The only book in the OT to have the concepts is Daniel, which was written about 200 years after the end of the exile. I believe Judaism IS a Babylonian religion. Josephus wrote that there were no Jews until they began to arrive from Babylon. Prior to this, they were known as the Hebrews. When the Hebrew became known as the Jews for their religion, the Priest class devised restrictions against those who lived with them. In order to have legitimacy before the population, they had to have a holy book and the Torah was written after the Jews became squatters in Jerusalem, the book gave them claim to Jerusalem. To legitimize the law, the mythological figure Moses received it from god himself. However in later books, the prophet Jeremiah claimed god never gave the law to Moses and that the law was the result of their imaginations, especially concerning sacrifices. Christians lost tract of Jeremiah's claims against the religious laws--the Jews went backwards in attitudes and beliefs instead of forward--likewise Christians have gone backwards and not forwards. They fell into the same trap of believing everything they were told without questioning the source. They let a religion terrorize them into acceptance of its idiotic values and festivals, mirrored by Christians who are make-believe Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyjj Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 I'm sure there must be a book about this somewhere. The Angels and Demons theme is elaborated in the Book of Enoch, written about 300BC - before the book of Daniel - where Gabriel gets his first "Biblical" mention. The catholic babble has stories to the effect that demons were a product of sex between angels and man And this is supposed to be the "Truth" This comes from the stories of the Nephilim - see Genesis 6:1-4, and Numbers 13:32-33 and is elaborated in the The Book of the Watchers (part of the book of Enoch). All this is extra-biblical, but provides the setting for Daniel, and the way Heaven and Hell, Angels and Demons appear later on in the new testament. It's fascinating History.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirPhoenix Posted November 25, 2010 Author Share Posted November 25, 2010 I was aware of the concept of angels and demons in the OT. Interesting point that much of it doesn't show up until after the Babylonian captivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 This just hit me today. There is never one mention in the entire OT of anyone being possessed by a demon. There are instances where Hebrew words are translated as demon, but no all out instances of possession. However, it seems suddenly with Jesus arrival that demonic possession if not a problem everyone had, was around, kind of like herpes. So where in the world did the idea of demonic possession come from? From the pagan religions of the time of course. How better to sell a new religion that to tell the people that you are selling it to that you'll be protected from the demons. Free thinking is fun! If I remember this right, the word "daemon" in the ancient Greece meant something more like passionate or divine inspiration or even going berserk. For instance, someone who had an epiphany would have been inspired by something beyond his or her own mental facilities, and the inspiration must have come from the "outer" world. Or if someone suddenly went into full rage on in a battle and killed a truckload of enemies would also have been inspired by this mystical force. I think, however, that it didn't mean a certain kind of entity or being, but it was more of an inspiring force coming from outside the person's own body and mind. It's just another hint that the early Christian story was influenced by Greek myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyjj Posted November 26, 2010 Share Posted November 26, 2010 I was aware of the concept of angels and demons in the OT. Interesting point that much of it doesn't show up until after the Babylonian captivity. From Wikipedia: Under the patronage of the Achaemenid kings, and by the 5th century BCE as the de-facto religion of the state, Zoroastrianism would reach all corners of the empire. The Bible claims that Cyrus the Great allowed the Jews to return to their homeland after centuries of captivity by the Assyrian and Babylonian empires. I think it was Cyrus who dispatched Ezra to bring the Jewish religion 'back' to Israel (Judah) Zoroastrianism has the whole angels and demons, afterlife judgment, lake of fire thing - it is quite possible that 'Second Temple' Judaism (after the babylonian captivity) is a synthesis of Babylonian/Persian/Israelite religion. Christianity then becomes a synthesis of Second Temple Judaism and Pagan ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinallyFree Posted November 26, 2010 Share Posted November 26, 2010 This just hit me today. There is never one mention in the entire OT of anyone being possessed by a demon. There are instances where Hebrew words are translated as demon, but no all out instances of possession. However, it seems suddenly with Jesus arrival that demonic possession if not a problem everyone had, was around, kind of like herpes. So where in the world did the idea of demonic possession come from? From the pagan religions of the time of course. How better to sell a new religion that to tell the people that you are selling it to that you'll be protected from the demons. Free thinking is fun! That is very interesting. It is also very interesting the other pagan connections to christianity. For example - it is a historical fact (I learned it from the history channel) that many christian holidays were merged with pagan holidays. Some king did this a long long time ago to aid in converting pagans to christianity. Example: Easter. For christians it is the celebration of jesus becoming a zombie. However, this was merged with the pagan celebration of the goddess of fertility (don't remember her name but it's something the Esther or something that sounds like Easter). That's why it happens in the spring time (when nature is sort of reborn), that's why the bunnies, that's why the eggs. Also, Christmas - why is it in the winter when most people believe jesus wasn't born in winter?? Because it was merged with the Winter Solstice. No, it's not on the same exact day or whatever, but its close. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Free thinking is fun!!! Does anyone know of any other similar connections?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinallyFree Posted November 26, 2010 Share Posted November 26, 2010 I was aware of the concept of angels and demons in the OT. Interesting point that much of it doesn't show up until after the Babylonian captivity. From Wikipedia: Under the patronage of the Achaemenid kings, and by the 5th century BCE as the de-facto religion of the state, Zoroastrianism would reach all corners of the empire. The Bible claims that Cyrus the Great allowed the Jews to return to their homeland after centuries of captivity by the Assyrian and Babylonian empires. I think it was Cyrus who dispatched Ezra to bring the Jewish religion 'back' to Israel (Judah) Zoroastrianism has the whole angels and demons, afterlife judgment, lake of fire thing - it is quite possible that 'Second Temple' Judaism (after the babylonian captivity) is a synthesis of Babylonian/Persian/Israelite religion. Christianity then becomes a synthesis of Second Temple Judaism and Pagan ideas Wow - very interested. Really makes you think! I like that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 From Wikipedia: Under the patronage of the Achaemenid kings, and by the 5th century BCE as the de-facto religion of the state, Zoroastrianism would reach all corners of the empire. The Bible claims that Cyrus the Great allowed the Jews to return to their homeland after centuries of captivity by the Assyrian and Babylonian empires. I think it was Cyrus who dispatched Ezra to bring the Jewish religion 'back' to Israel (Judah) What? From the very first captives to their release under Cyrus, in 538 BCE based on the wiki page for the captivity, is roughly 60 years. I'm not sure where "centuries" comes from. Next, at this point in time Israel and Judah were two separate entities. Judah, not Israel, had captives taken to Babylon and had their, rather inferior, temple destroyed and ultimately rebuilt (supposedly inferior to what was there before but in all likelihood it was superior to what they had until Herod came along and further enhanced it). mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGMR Posted November 30, 2010 Share Posted November 30, 2010 I believe the Book of Jubilees also contributed to the idea of fallen angels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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