The Empty Tomb

[SirPhoenix]

Since admitting to myself that I no longer believe in christianity, I find myself looking at some of the circular logic I used to use to convince others and marvel. The empty tomb has to be the favorite agument of christians. "Explain the empty tomb then!" they say.

 

What a crock. If there even was tomb, and even if we could pinpoint where it is, how wold it being empty prove anything? The only documents that indicate he was placed in a tomb are the gospels. The only documents that indicate that there were guards, were.....wait for it.....the gospels (and only one of them at that).

 

How did the rumor of resurection get started? Who knows. For all we know Pilate thought it would be really funny to fuck with the Jews, so he had the body removed and burned. It could be that those that founded the christian religion were fooled into it. The only people who really know died almost 2000 years ago, and I'm pretty damn sure none of them came back to life.

[Guest Valk0010]

The empty tomb, tomb would have been a temporary tomb anyway. Ebellishement much.

 

Ever look at 1 Corithans, I think that is one of the strongest a arguements against the empty tomb existing, if it was true, paul's defense of the resurrection would have had the empty tomb in it. Also Paul never says he has had difference appearances then the apostles, Paul had hallucinatory experiences, if they were different then the apostles he would have said so regardless of any supposed gospel circulating during that time. Possibiliy hallcuinatory experiences and no empty tomb, defintely suspect.

[NoGods]

The resurrection is one of the things I refuse to even address with 'believers' anymore. Their argument is sooooooo circular! You dispute the bible accounts with it's many contradictions and they say you can't disprove a supernatural event. You dispute that they can't prove god exists and that he supernaturally raised him and they say the biblical accounts are sound and historical. This the point they fight the hardest on... Like Paul said, no resurrection and it's all in the crapper.

 

The thing that gets to me now, is that I used to believe it was the GOSPEL truth.

[Ouroboros]

The tomb was empty because Jesus was never put there.

 

We have this guy who shows up from nowhere, he has some family tomb that is empty, and he's the one taking the body to the tomb... Nothing in the story explains where he came from, why he did it, or that he even had anyone corroborate the body for being there. And nothing is explained why the tomb was empty to start with. Was it new? Was it emptied before Jesus was put there? How can it be a family tomb if no family is there? Strange stuff. or did they mean it was empty but had a lot of bones in there? Many questions that no one can answer.

[NoGods]

The tomb was empty because Jesus was never put there.

 

We have this guy who shows up from nowhere, he has some family tomb that is empty, and he's the one taking the body to the tomb... Nothing in the story explains where he came from, why he did it, or that he even had anyone corroborate the body for being there. And nothing is explained why the tomb was empty to start with. Was it new? Was it emptied before Jesus was put there? How can it be a family tomb if no family is there? Strange stuff. or did they mean it was empty but had a lot of bones in there? Many questions that no one can answer.

 

Te Jewish tombs where mainly for decomposition only. After the soft tissue was gone, the bones where boxed up for end-of-time resurrection proposes

 

I personally think the whole thing was made up well after the fact (the resurrection) I do think Jesus was killed by the Romans, but left to rot or was thrown in a mass grave near the cross.

 

The Christians also LOVE to drag Paul into it. Paul says Jesus appeared to him, but it was at most a vision and I use that term very loosely. If not for a the glue book of Acts, we would not have as of a big of a problem today. If I could go back in time, I would let Paul do his crazy thing and kill the writer of Luke/Acts.

[Ouroboros]

Te Jewish tombs where mainly for decomposition only. After the soft tissue was gone, the bones where boxed up for end-of-time resurrection proposes

And I think the ossuaries with the bones were kept in the tombs, or weren't they? Did they have multiple tombs each family? One for rotting, used every 10-40 years depending on when and who died in the family, and then one tombs with the bones? Seems very expensive and unnecessary.

[mwc]

Te Jewish tombs where mainly for decomposition only. After the soft tissue was gone, the bones where boxed up for end-of-time resurrection proposes

And I think the ossuaries with the bones were kept in the tombs, or weren't they? Did they have multiple tombs each family? One for rotting, used every 10-40 years depending on when and who died in the family, and then one tombs with the bones? Seems very expensive and unnecessary.

No. The ossuaries were (pretty much) a 1st century thing. In general you have a tomb with a number of smaller loci within it. The person is placed within their own space until about a year later at which time they're placed within a box by family and placed within a loci inside the tomb. Wash, rinse and repeat. The loci can have more than one box within it (dug out as needed and I do believe that sometimes they would accidentally enter adjoining tombs so they'd have to seal it up and head off some other direction). The sizes of the tombs could obviously vary from relatively small to many generational like a mausoleum might today. It was generally the upper class that could afford such things and bought into the idea of the boxes though it did become more commonplace as time went on. Most people just got buried in the dirt and hoped for the best (lots and lots of these people out around the Dead Sea in the Qumran area and lots of people in Egypt and the like as well).

 

Prior to the boxes the Jews used to have the same burials but instead of moving into an individual box they would move the bones into a common loci for everyone in that tomb. It was much simpler in terms of process but, as I recall, the boxes arose out of this process because a movement started that caused the Jews to worry that they would not be properly "assembled" when the day came if they were simply placed into a single mass with everyone else. By keeping themselves in their own box this would mean that only their parts would be there and they wouldn't have their head with Aunt Judy's leg and their withered brother's arm and so on.

 

Keep in mind that the idea of getting a "perfect" body wasn't necessarily hand-in-hand with the whole idea of coming back to life and that YHWH usually sent angels, who weren't always as good at doing their job as YHWH was, to do these sorts of tasks so if you got a sloppy assembly angel then you could be out of luck in this new life.

 

Anyhow, I'm sure I forgetting and glossing over plenty of things but that's the gist of it from what I remember.

 

mwc

[SirPhoenix]

The tomb was empty because Jesus was never put there.

 

We have this guy who shows up from nowhere, he has some family tomb that is empty, and he's the one taking the body to the tomb... Nothing in the story explains where he came from, why he did it, or that he even had anyone corroborate the body for being there. And nothing is explained why the tomb was empty to start with. Was it new? Was it emptied before Jesus was put there? How can it be a family tomb if no family is there? Strange stuff. or did they mean it was empty but had a lot of bones in there? Many questions that no one can answer.

 

Disciple 1 - Ok, we killed the old dude, and got his clothes. We nabbed him as he was coming from the tomb he just bought.

Disiple 2 - Ok, so, I put on his clothes and claim I want to give Yeshua a decent burial

Disciple 1 - Exactly, and the soldiers will let you do it, because they don't really like taking the bodies down and hauling them off anyway

Disciple 2 - Right, and once I get him out of sight, I dump the body, make it look like he is sill on the cart, and then haul that to the tomb

Disciple 1 - And then you put the rags in the tomb, we seal it up, and you get out of there.

Disiple 2 - Oh, I have an idea, once I'm out of there, I'll say something in earshot of the Sanhedren about us going to steal the body. I bet they'll post a guard.

Disciple 1 - Niiiiice!!!

Disciple 2 - This will teach those assholes for not making us part of the inner circle of 12. How much you want to bet they'll form a new religion?

Disciple 1 - Hmmm, I'll take that bet, let's say a skin of wine.

Disciple 2 - Done

[Ouroboros]

And I think the ossuaries with the bones were kept in the tombs, or weren't they? Did they have multiple tombs each family? One for rotting, used every 10-40 years depending on when and who died in the family, and then one tombs with the bones? Seems very expensive and unnecessary.

No. The ossuaries were (pretty much) a 1st century thing. In general you have a tomb with a number of smaller loci within it. The person is placed within their own space until about a year later at which time they're placed within a box by family and placed within a loci inside the tomb. Wash, rinse and repeat. The loci can have more than one box within it (dug out as needed and I do believe that sometimes they would accidentally enter adjoining tombs so they'd have to seal it up and head off some other direction). The sizes of the tombs could obviously vary from relatively small to many generational like a mausoleum might today. It was generally the upper class that could afford such things and bought into the idea of the boxes though it did become more commonplace as time went on. Most people just got buried in the dirt and hoped for the best (lots and lots of these people out around the Dead Sea in the Qumran area and lots of people in Egypt and the like as well).

So the loci is within the tomb?

 

Then where did they place the body to rot away before they put it in the tomb/loci? Where would this "own space" be? In the tomb or somewhere else?

[mwc]

The tomb was empty because Jesus was never put there.

 

We have this guy who shows up from nowhere, he has some family tomb that is empty, and he's the one taking the body to the tomb... Nothing in the story explains where he came from, why he did it, or that he even had anyone corroborate the body for being there. And nothing is explained why the tomb was empty to start with. Was it new? Was it emptied before Jesus was put there? How can it be a family tomb if no family is there? Strange stuff. or did they mean it was empty but had a lot of bones in there? Many questions that no one can answer.

 

Disciple 1 - Ok, we killed the old dude, and got his clothes. We nabbed him as he was coming from the tomb he just bought.

Disiple 2 - Ok, so, I put on his clothes and claim I want to give Yeshua a decent burial

Disciple 1 - Exactly, and the soldiers will let you do it, because they don't really like taking the bodies down and hauling them off anyway

Disciple 2 - Right, and once I get him out of sight, I dump the body, make it look like he is sill on the cart, and then haul that to the tomb

Disciple 1 - And then you put the rags in the tomb, we seal it up, and you get out of there.

Disiple 2 - Oh, I have an idea, once I'm out of there, I'll say something in earshot of the Sanhedren about us going to steal the body. I bet they'll post a guard.

Disciple 1 - Niiiiice!!!

Disciple 2 - This will teach those assholes for not making us part of the inner circle of 12. How much you want to bet they'll form a new religion?

Disciple 1 - Hmmm, I'll take that bet, let's say a skin of wine.

Disciple 2 - Done

Yikes, this is needlessly complicated! Well, they're your characters so they can do whatever they like I suppose.

 

mwc

[SirPhoenix]

The tomb was empty because Jesus was never put there.

 

We have this guy who shows up from nowhere, he has some family tomb that is empty, and he's the one taking the body to the tomb... Nothing in the story explains where he came from, why he did it, or that he even had anyone corroborate the body for being there. And nothing is explained why the tomb was empty to start with. Was it new? Was it emptied before Jesus was put there? How can it be a family tomb if no family is there? Strange stuff. or did they mean it was empty but had a lot of bones in there? Many questions that no one can answer.

 

Disciple 1 - Ok, we killed the old dude, and got his clothes. We nabbed him as he was coming from the tomb he just bought.

Disiple 2 - Ok, so, I put on his clothes and claim I want to give Yeshua a decent burial

Disciple 1 - Exactly, and the soldiers will let you do it, because they don't really like taking the bodies down and hauling them off anyway

Disciple 2 - Right, and once I get him out of sight, I dump the body, make it look like he is sill on the cart, and then haul that to the tomb

Disciple 1 - And then you put the rags in the tomb, we seal it up, and you get out of there.

Disiple 2 - Oh, I have an idea, once I'm out of there, I'll say something in earshot of the Sanhedren about us going to steal the body. I bet they'll post a guard.

Disciple 1 - Niiiiice!!!

Disciple 2 - This will teach those assholes for not making us part of the inner circle of 12. How much you want to bet they'll form a new religion?

Disciple 1 - Hmmm, I'll take that bet, let's say a skin of wine.

Disciple 2 - Done

Yikes, this is needlessly complicated! Well, they're your characters so they can do whatever they like I suppose.

 

mwc

 

Agreed, but it was so much fun writing it. I'm working on a Jeus returns story that is sort of a Transformers/GI Joe crossover.