Guest queen annie Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 The long-standing atheist/christian point of contention about God, the bible, and the burden of proof has been one I have largely avoided at all costs because I don't ally myself on either side. It is hard for me to stand the volley for very long because of the frustration I begin to feel at what seems like a hopeless and unwarranted mess. I understand completely the atheist's rejection of christianity--because I reject it, too. The points made against it, especially by ex-christian atheists, are sound and truly legitimate. Yet it hurts me to see just how damaging the results are from getting from there to here for so many--I know why the various attitudes are what they are, in every individual--but the blame is placed unfairly upon God because of those who claim to be His so-called followers. In my understanding I see that the forces of the material world, through the christian religion, have pretty much deluded most of the world--either because it was believed as the authority and so blinds those believers in that way--or it was not believed and rightfully recognized as false yet the same acceptance as it being the authority caused the blame to be placed on the truth, causing a different sort of blindness. I never worried about it until the last few years--my life unexpectedly changed profoundly and I found myself studying the bible with a focus I've never applied to anything else before. It wasn't like I was doing it against my will, but I know I didn't have any thoughts of such a thing happening in my life, ever. I felt compelled, that's the only was I can describe it--but it wasn't at all a chore or negative in any way. I had never been indoctrinated or religious in any way--I'd studied just about everything in the world regarding spirituality of all sorts--and had found my understandings already and wasn't searching for truth or answers. What I discovered blew me away--literally astounded me. I think there is definitely a lesson in the bible for the whole world--but it's not that which christians present at all, nor is their role what they believe it to be. The bible actually proves itself by disproving christianity, and I can point it out without employing circular arguments or scriptural scavenger hunts. Go ahead and laugh. I expected it. Then, let's talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotter Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Queen Annie, I for one won't be laughing. Please talk and point out the lesson. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Interesting QA, Let's hear what you have to say. Personally, I think there are good and bad things in the Bible, just like most any other book. There are lessons to be learned from it, and things you really never should touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 I personally don't think you can prove the existence or non-existence of a god with the technology we have currently. But let's hear it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NimbusBirdMgp Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 I understand completely the atheist's rejection of christianity--because I reject it, too. The points made against it, especially by ex-christian atheists, are sound and truly legitimate. It's not a rejection of Christianity, it's a rejection of all gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 It's not a rejection of Christianity, it's a rejection of all gods. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes well I am interested in what will be said here, mind you, and I am not trying to bait anybody here when I say he will hit a brick wall trying to explain Israel away. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Yes well I am interested in what will be said here, mind you, and I am not trying to bait anybody here when I say he will hit a brick wall trying to explain Israel away. Peace Who will hit a brick wall? What about Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 I can learn from Shakespeare what I can learn from the bible. And without all the boring geneology and "begats" messing up the story, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Shakespeare sucks too, unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Who will hit a brick wall? What about Israel? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He is still stuck on that whole Israel being rebuilt being prophsied in the OT. He hasn't figure out that the prophesy he is referencing was speaking of Israel being rebuilt after the Bablyonian distruction in 5th century B.C.E. And therefore has nothing to do with modern Israel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Shakespeare sucks too, unfortunately Ignorant lout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Ignorant lout. pretentious asshole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 pretentious asshole. I think it's a rule that all academics have to be pretentious. And you have no contest in the Asshole Category, Asi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Queen Annie, I have found a lot of wisdom in your posts so far. I respectfully look for any insights you have to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest queen annie Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Okay, then, there is some preparation involved here, since this will be the first time I've ever laid these things out in one whole chunk. I didn't want anyone to think I was teasing, by not posting such a provocative statement and then not coming back to it. I've had some things to do and I've also been considering the best way to begin. I want to make it clear that my purpose in sharing what I have is not in any way, shape, or form, meant to be some innovative effort to covertly re-convert any soul who has de-converted from the damaging errors promoted by the christian religion. That, to me, would be an even crueler thing that what has already been done. Especially since I believe that what has been done already was basically a result of a combination of ignorance and deep-seated insecurities/issues. Not yours but those of all the well-meaning christians who bastardized truth in their efforts to sweep the dirt of their internal torments under the rug instead of getting out the mop and the soap-and-water. Dirt only piles up if it's not taken care of and that's what religion has done to the world. Also, I know how I would feel if someone tried to force me into a church for a reason other than a funeral--I would be kicking and screaming and fighting the whole way, and it's very likely that the only way anyone could be successful in doing such a thing would result in my own funeral. Neither do I expect to change anyone's mind about God or try to donate a prefabricated set of belief to anyone's mind. That's personal and out of my jurisdiction. I do hope to maybe lighten a few heavy hearts--and at the very least, might be able to help provide some really good ammo to use in verbal battles. Asimov said it's not a rejection of christianity, but a rejection of all gods. This I realize--but I know that the #1 cause for rejecting all gods (in the case of someone once willing to accept the possibility that there is a God) is christianity. I can't prove God to anyone--if the seed is there, it is there. I didn't plant it, nor can I make it grow. The only thing I can do is to mark the bottles of 'poison weed killer' so that it is clearly not mistaken for 'fertilizer.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest queen annie Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 This post will help by clarifying some points I'll be addressing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godless Wonder Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 --but the blame is placed unfairly upon God because of those who claim to be His so-called followers. Nobody who doesn't believe in any gods blames God.[ . . . ] The bible actually proves itself by disproving christianity, and I can point it out without employing circular arguments or scriptural scavenger hunts.[ Bullshit. You can't prove X by disproving Y*. You are full of shit. *unless X is the proposition "Y is not true." But that is not the case here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntsvil Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Hmmm, a very thought provoking idea Queenie. May I add something? Atheism is too simple. But then so is what I call a childs view of Christianity. The view which simply says there is a good God in Heaven and everything is all right--leaving out the difficulty and terrible doctrines about sin and hell and the devil, and the redemption. Both of these are boys' philosophies. It is no good asking for a simple religion. Afterall, real things are not simple. They look simple, but they are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Hmmm, a very thought provoking idea Queenie. May I add something?Atheism is too simple. But then so is what I call a childs view of Christianity. The view which simply says there is a good God in Heaven and everything is all right--leaving out the difficulty and terrible doctrines about sin and hell and the devil, and the redemption. Both of these are boys' philosophies. It is no good asking for a simple religion. Afterall, real things are not simple. They look simple, but they are not. I'd like you to actually start a thread on what you think about atheism, because I want to see what you have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 This post will help by clarifying some points I'll be addressing here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Queen annie, I am not a science buff by any means, but I will say that the layout of that discussion and thought was pretty awesome. Personally, the most awesome point was the conclusion of Christ in relevance to the whole thought. I have experienced a similar thought, in the complacent unchristian realm of my past business life. Though I have converted to a follower of Christ, this ulitimate structure of life and why I was here is very revealing. The process of life is very complicated and I realized that Christianity has become a body of mixed breeds of faith. The seven churches defines the mixing, lacking, and empowerment of those who walk in the light they have seen. My POV in regards to the topic is that I agree that the observations and scientific evidences and conclusions that we as people have come too, have all been surrounded by the works of the Lord. We are far surpassed in knowledge than any other thing on earth, as God said we were. We will explain and conclude things to be a certain way and plan out events that embody that knowledge and freewill, resulting in science and great findings; as God has said that we would do. Imagine, what would the world, science, history, culture represent if we all had the same speech and language. It would be as God said it would be. I believe when Christ came He fulfilled all these things, the void, that mankind has had since the dawn of Abraham. The Acts of the Apostles say that there where people whom receiving the Holy Spirit, spoke in other vistors native language. The people speaking out of there dialect where praising God according to the scripture. When questioned to Peter, he replied in reference to the prophecy of the what would happen in the last days. Christ has been the energy of the empowering of the promise given to anyone who believed in Him. This empowerment has spread throughout 2000 years in many unknowing and very relevant means to spread the Gospel of Christ, in fulfillment of the Word. Allthough some may misinterpret or not understand, it is here and is flowing through people around the world. As the world becomes more complacent and lacking toward the will of Christ, the spirit of those who hate Christ will escalade into the fulfillment of His Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntsvil Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I'd like you to actually start a thread on what you think about atheism, because I want to see what you have to say. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You are fair. I will have to think on that one. Not having ever been one, it will not be easy. Any suggestions of where I might find some thoughts on it that are not laced with hate or hyperboly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 You are fair. I will have to think on that one. Not having ever been one, it will not be easy. Any suggestions of where I might find some thoughts on it that are not laced with hate or hyperboly? But Asimov was asking for your thoughts on atheism, not someone else's thoughts. Why would you have to do research in order to answer him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Speaking to Huntsvill------But Asimov was asking for your thoughts on atheism, not someone else's thoughts. Why would you have to do research in order to answer him? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I would like to give Asimov my thoughts on atheism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 What I discovered blew me away--literally astounded me. I think there is definitely a lesson in the bible for the whole world--but it's not that which christians present at all, nor is their role what they believe it to be. The bible actually proves itself by disproving christianity, ... You know, had you lived 2000 years ago and been named Paul, you could have played a key role in a developing religion. What you're describing sounds a lot like Logos (not to be confused with Legos). Paul's revelation was the same sort. He read between the lines of the Jewish scriptures and found a way to reconcile them with Hellenistic thinking. He was not the first to do this, but his tenacity paid off. I agree that if you really study the Bible, you will see a new revelation; the revelation that it is all mythological and rooted in astrology. It's difficult to take the god concept seriously once you understand its origin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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