Some Sort of Proof

[Asimov]

Anyone who can give their thoughts on atheism do so, remember, if it is stupid, you will be told so.

[Fweethawt]

I agree that if you really study the Bible, you will see a new revelation; the revelation that it is all mythological and rooted in astrology.  It's difficult to take the god concept seriously once you understand its origin.

 

This site, does a fine job of covering the astrological roots of the religion.

 

The Unspoken Bible

[Abiyoyo]

Anyone who can give their thoughts on atheism do so, remember, if it is stupid, you will be told so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Asimov,

 

Humor me. Give me your definition of an atheist.

[Asuryan]

Yet it hurts me to see just how damaging the results are from getting from there to here for so many--I know why the various attitudes are what they are, in every individual--but the blame is placed unfairly upon God because of those who claim to be His so-called followers. 

 

...then again, if God exists, and if he knows everything and can do everything, this means that he knows what his so-called followers are doing. And that he could stop them anytime, or modify their behaviour somehow, or bring them on the right way with some true miracles and a booming voice from heaven (multiplying bread and fishes for starving people?) telling them what they're doing wrong and whatnot...

Well he could. He isn't doing that. So he just... stays there, wherever is *there*, and looks at people killing and torturing others in his name, and simply doesn't do anything.

 

I don't think that the bible contains more lessons than, let's say, the Lord of the Rings books or Asimov's foundation cycle. Everything can be read as a lesson, if one wants to.

[spamandham]

Anyone who can give their thoughts on atheism do so, remember, if it is stupid, you will be told so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Unless you disbelieve like me, you aren't a True Atheist.

[Guest queen annie]

Nobody who doesn't believe in any gods blames God.

Bullshit.  You can't prove X by disproving Y*.  You are full of shit.

 

*unless X is the proposition "Y is not true."  But that is not the case here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not as full of it as you are, as evidenced by the fact that it flies out of your mouth at every opportunity.

 

So either be decent about things or take the shit-spewing somewhere away from me.

 

Thanks.

[Guest queen annie]

You know, had you lived 2000 years ago and been named Paul, you could have played a key role in a developing religion.

Falsely accused, more accurately. Paul didn't start religion, the Roman empire did, 300 years later--and he's been falsely accused ever since,

because of a lack of understanding by just about everybody.

 

What you're describing sounds a lot like Logos (not to be confused with Legos).  Paul's revelation was the same sort.  He read between the lines of the Jewish scriptures and found a way to reconcile them with Hellenistic thinking.  He was not the first to do this, but his tenacity paid off.

I don't see the Hellenistic thought in the idea of the Logos--it's found mostly in gnosticism, but as far as I understood that was more from an Essene direction or even Coptic. But Greek? You'll have to explain what you mean.

 

I agree that if you really study the Bible, you will see a new revelation; the revelation that it is all mythological and rooted in astrology.  It's difficult to take the god concept seriously once you understand its origin.

I've already 'really studied the bible' according to your yardstick--I'm fully aware of that which nature you call 'mythological' (whatever that means to you--false? unproven? impossible? invented?) but it's not something that makes it wrong or worthless at all.

Neither is astrology--and I've studied it extensively on its own, before the bible studying. There is absolutely no conflict between the two--the christian prejudice against all things to do with the stars is actually evidence in favor of scriptural worth and is a good place to start this thread, officially.

 

Thanks for the direction, I've been getting off course all day, defending myself against various things.

[Vulgaris Prime]

As the world becomes more complacent and lacking toward the will of Christ, the spirit of those who hate Christ will escalade into the fulfillment of His Word.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, keep your persecution complex going, you little prick.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again:

 

YoYo, meet D. Hood. He's from Paragon City, and his job is cleaning up scum, villains, and no-goodniks by blasting their asses with lightning. And he has something he'd like to tell you:

 

[spamandham]

Falsely accused, more accurately.  Paul didn't start religion, the Roman empire did,

 

Paul didn't start it. He continued it and played a key role in its spread. By the time Paul wrote his letters, there were Christian churches all over the region. How does an organized group of believers reinforcing eachother's beliefs not count as religion?

 

I don't see the Hellenistic thought in the idea of the Logos--it's found mostly in gnosticism, but as far as I understood that was more from an Essene direction or even Coptic.  But Greek?

 

The logos concept is uniquely Hellenistic. I'm surprised you don't already know that.

 

Catholic Encyclopedia on Logos and Hellenism

 

If you want to know more, google on stoicism.

 

I've already 'really studied the bible' according to your yardstick--I'm fully aware of that which nature you call 'mythological' (whatever that means to you--false?  unproven?  impossible?  invented?) but it's not something that makes it wrong or worthless at all. 

 

'worthless' is a matter of opinion of course. From my perspective, mythical thinking is not worthless, it's worse than worthless.

[All Gods Fail]

Hmmm, a very thought provoking idea Queenie. May I add something?

Atheism is too simple. But then so is what I call a childs view of Christianity. The view which simply says there is a good God in Heaven and everything is all right--leaving out the difficulty and terrible doctrines about sin and hell and the devil, and the redemption. Both of these are boys' philosophies. It is no good asking for a simple religion. Afterall, real things are not simple. They look simple, but they are not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Atheism simple? Well, yeah, I guess so. We don't believe in gods. That's pretty simple.

 

But you fail to grasp the significance of that. Because your beliefs are complex and confusing, you assume that the opposite must be true of an unbeliever. The truth is it's pretty damn hard to be a true atheist. You can't just switch tracks and become a Muslim, or Hindu or whatever. You have to do some heavy lifting. No supernatural spooks to do it for us.

 

It's very easy to use 'complex' thinking to get meaning out of life when it results in not having to think for yourself. When you're staring down a vast universe with no one at the wheel it's not so easy to discover meaning. But when you begin to try, you find a strength within yourself you never knew you had before. I go on in the face of an absurd existence with so many unknowns, and actually enjoy it.

 

Simple - but not so easy.

[Asimov]

Asimov,

 

Humor me. Give me your definition of an atheist.

 

Start a new thread, this is off-track.

[NimbusBirdMgp]

green annie?

 

I think that I have thought closely in somewhat you are thinking. I just like to know more of your sophisications about it, that I haven't understood.

 

Why would this God be even different than the Christian religion and still be like it? Does this supposed God really have an interest in us? I mean good interest. Not the kind where it sits back enjoying to conflicts and bigotry like some kind of entertainment it seems to get. Does it have concerned about each of us having a choice and having it fulfilled?

 

Cause I think I have done what you are saying, but I still get no respect for my choice in this life.

[Ouroboros]

...

Imagine, what would the world, science, history, culture represent if we all had the same speech and language. It would be as God said it would be.

...

God wouldn't like it. The Tower of Babel y'a know. (Or Tower of Babble).

[Guest queen annie]

green annie?

I'm not green! Well, only onboard a sea-going vessel, that is. hee hee

 

Why would this God be even different than the Christian religion and still be like it?

Who says He is like the christian religion? I really can't see any correlation, myself. I don't consider names or labels--only 'fruit.' IOW, actions speak louder than words and regardless of what the world of christianity claims to represent, the closer I look the more false that statement reveals itself to be.

 

I hate the accusation of liar, and do not accuse others, even if I know they are being untruthful. Because I have found that many of us, most of us actually, lie to ourselves and as a result cannot help but lie to others, because we cannot recognize the truth. The veil we put over our own faces so that we don't have to meet eye to eye with our self in the mirror also prevents us from meeting the eyes of others.

 

So when I say that christianity is false, I'm not judging those people, they truly don't know what they are doing, I feel certain. They have good intentions, just as we all do, but you know the old saying--'the road to hell is paved with good intentions.' Surely a christian invented that--since it mentions one of their favorite subjects (hell) but I wonder why it is not considered very earnestly--or at least seems to be.

 

Does this supposed God really have an interest in us?

Well, traditonal slander aside--and established beliefs--why wouldn't He? He created us--why wouldn't He have the ultimate responsibility to each and every one of us? The christian idea of hell and what they think constitutes 'salvation' makes God seem like He's only interested in their type of piety--but the truth is that true piety is beyond human ability. And the events in our life are not rewards or punishments, they are a direct result of the energy we put forth toward one another.

 

We tend to think that when we don't discover events and situations to bear up against what we think we have the right to expect from God,

that He doesn't care, or 'allows' bad things to happen, or that He toys with us. No where are we promised a happy go lucky life free of human pain, stresses, and difficulties. I personally don't see how such a care-free life would build anyone's character or bring them closer to a divine state of thinking--it's the main ingredient of a spoiled brat, IMO.

 

I've had some pretty stiff times in my life, and hardships, and at the time they were

not fun

, in fact they were the worst time I've ever endured. Sometimes I wondered if the sun would ever shine again, and in no way would I want to even think about having to repeat any of them. But not for one minute do I think any harm was done to me, and when I truly look at the 'me' before and the 'me' after--I realize I was done more good than I was ever done harm. If they hadn't happened, I'd still be a real mess, and not even realize it. And I learned that there is but one thing only that any of us can trust in and that is Love. And we must love ourselves, too.

 

I mean good interest.  Not the kind where it sits back enjoying to conflicts and bigotry like some kind of entertainment it seems to get.

Just because there are conflicts and bigotry does not mean God enjoys them. These things mankind does to each other--as long as there have been two men with two different opinions in the world, there has been the potential for strife, conflict, and murder.

I think surely envy (covetousness) causes the biggest part of it. Something which we are not to have toward one another.

 

Does it have concerned about each of us having a choice and having it fulfilled?

Practically speaking, it would seem that He does--what I said above supports that. If no one wanted what another one had, or had jealousy for any other reason, then there would be a lot less ugliness in the world.

Obviously we have the choice whether to hold to the idea that 'we shall not covet' or not. It would appear that the choice the majority of people make disregards any potential wisdom in that statement in favor of their own ideas.

 

Cause I think I have done what you are saying, but I still get no respect for my choice in this life.

I'm not sure what you are saying? What have you done and what is your choice?

 

As far as respect from others in the world--of what value does that truly have? If your choice feels right to you, whatever it is--then whose business is it, really? The only thing of any importance, and it is crucially important, is that it truly is your choice and yours alone, not influenced by what others think, say, advise, or do.

[Valgeir]

The logos concept is uniquely Hellenistic.

 

Just to add my own 1.5 cents, that should have been a little obvious... what with "Logos" having obvious Greek etymological roots...

[Guest queen annie]

God wouldn't like it. The Tower of Babel y'a know. (Or Tower of Babble).

Probably because we weren't ready for that kind of power--I still can't see that we're prepared, although there is a lot of progress aside from the recent wars.

 

The potential of the mind is a big cannon for the small thoughts of mankind. If we were capable of doing good as a collective whole humanity, I think that power is right now in our hands--delegates get together and overcome the barrier of language for 'peace talks', and we've got the internet and satellite communications possible to 'truly unite and turn the world around' but I can't see that much good is coming of any of that, aside from the internet being probably the first incident of a truly free press. Regardless of all the nonsense on the net, the underlying principle is that anyone can say what they want and there is no censorship of any significance.

 

There are a whole lot of 'hidden' things being revealed in this world in the last few years--and it seems harder and harder for anyone to hide a skeleton, it's like they have stood up and come out of the closet of their own accord.

 

But until we can get past the greed/envy issue, we're just going to keep killing each other in the name of God, power, and land.

[MQTA]

God wouldn't like it. The Tower of Babel y'a know. (Or Tower of Babble).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Was just talking about that with someone last week. I asked them when The LAST time this world had World Peace.

 

We all spoke one language and God didn't like it and purposely split us all up and gave us different Histories (apparently). I told them if we were ever to all speak the same language AND work together, again, we'd be in big trouble. Who knows what He would do to us at that point.

 

Then the internet is our doom, people all over the world are learning English so we can all talk together. The online translators are getting better too.

 

We {supposedly} HAD World Peace. That wasn't good. So we'd best not ever attain it again, it would destroy us. LOL

 

 

[Huntsvil]

Atheism simple? Well, yeah, I guess so. We don't believe in gods. That's pretty simple.

 

It's very easy to use 'complex' thinking to get meaning out of life when it results in not having to think for yourself. When you're staring down a vast universe with no one at the wheel it's not so easy to discover meaning. But when you begin to try, you find a strength within yourself you never knew you had before. I go on in the face of an absurd existence with so many unknowns, and actually enjoy it.

 

Simple - but not so easy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think you hit on what I have been trying to understand myself. There is this mysterious strength within, but is it us or some other influence?

[Amethyst]

Just because people have self-esteem and learn to be independent, does not mean it is anything supernatural in origin! Why can't you people believe that humans can do things on their own? Why? Are you really that superstitious? Sheesh.

[Antlerman]

Atheism is too simple. But then so is what I call a childs view of Christianity.

You know, I'm gearing up to really take this ignorant notion of atheism to task. I'm going elsewhere at the moment so I will not address it fully at this point. For the moment, I would just ask you to look a little deeper into what atheism is, versus the narrow propaganda that the Church loves to box it into. My thought is that mischaracterization of atheism is because the Church possibly views it as its biggest threat. Suffice to say my friend, belief in god is far more "simple" to do.... figure that.

 

First hint: An atheist is not someone who is simply unchurched and gets drunk all day. It's quite the contrary.

[Guest Challenger]

I think you hit on what I have been trying to understand myself. There is this mysterious strength within, but is it us or some other influence?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's us. It's in all of us.

[Guest queen annie]

In order to avoid getting derailed here, again, I'm going to make a statement about the bible so we can just look at it as a book. Forget whether it's 'factually' true or proven historically true, or even if it is consistent. The consistency will reveal itself if it's there and quite frankly, my honest opinion is that the factually examination of it as a historical record isn't necessary to prove nor is it even relevant. I learned a lot, as a kid, from stories I know now are total fiction--because they taught me 'truth' of a higher sort--such as 'The little engine that could.' I know trains don't talk--but in no way does that make the story not able to provide an invaluable lesson to countless kids. Kids can't understand the adult world as adults, but yet they are heading for that place and must be prepared. So we teach them with allegory and metaphor. And it works and it's still 'truth' and is a profitable thing for mankind. I truly don't see the bible as something we should use to prove God--it is meant to instruct us on an absolutely individual level. But christianity has all but ruined that possibility with their folding, spindling, and mutilating in order to justify their falsely claimed exclusive right to both God and 'heaven.'

 

And it is the hardest thing for most to do, to keep their representation from influencing what we read--but unless we do that, we're believing their the opposite direction they are. Skepticism is good--especially if it is applied to everything. What I see more than any other comment is something to the effect of 'why isn't god this way or why doesn't he do as he (supposedly) said (because christians say so)?

 

Why are they the authority? Because they say they are? Because they call themselves by something they think is His name? Because they pay preachers to tell them what's right according to their god? How can we be sure they even know god? They don't seem to make any sense of what they are charged to be able to explain (that is, if their charge is authentic).

 

Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you to explain the hope you have.

But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak evil of your good conduct in Christ will be ashamed of slandering you.

1 Peter 3:14-16 ISV

 

It’s no secret on this board that the evidence, as clearly demonstrated by christians, directly contradicts the first sentence above. Not only is every standard defense illogical and arrogant, after all these years, no preparation of anything offered as ‘defense’ seems to be taking place.

 

Furthermore, as soon as the squirming begins, any semblance of gentleness and respect (if there were any in the first place) is out the window. As far as slander goes toward Christendom—I really can’t say there is any taking place, on the whole. What is said here about christians is certainly not what I would call slander—more like brutal honesty, but it’s better than sugar-coated lies. Any cases of being ‘ashamed’ would definitely apply to them, rather than to those being brutally honest. But since they were so ready to claim that name, they feel justified in being ‘offended.’ But the offense is from them toward others, not toward them for their ‘good conduct.’

 

Another direct contradiction to the christian attitude as rightly representing what is taught in scripture is:

 

For all kinds of animals, birds, reptiles, and sea creatures can be or have been tamed by the human species, but no one can tame the tongue. It is an uncontrollable evil filled with deadly poison.

With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse those who are made in God's likeness. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing.

It should not be like this, my brothers!

A spring cannot pour both fresh and brackish water from the same opening, can it?

My brothers, a fig tree cannot produce olives, nor a grapevine figs, can it?

Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

Who among you is wise and understanding?

Let him show by his good life that his works are done in humility born of wisdom.

But if you have bitter jealousy and rivalry in your hearts, stop boasting and lying against the truth. That kind of wisdom does not come from above.

No, it is worldly, self-centered, and demonic.

For wherever jealousy and rivalry exist, there is disorder and every kind of evil.

James 3:7-16 ISV

 

Again, on the outside looking in, the world of christianity is full of jealousy, rivalry, boasting and lying against the truth. If it weren’t so, then there wouldn’t be denominations or apologetics. I can’t see the point in offering an apology for the truth—that, in itself. is another evidence against christianity being the purpose of what’s written in the bible.

[Guest queen annie]

It's us.  It's in all of us.

 

That's right! How simple is that?

 

It's totally an unchristian thing to believe, but yet it is true! The biggest problem, the only true 'sin' is denying this simple beauty and looking for answers from other people and groups.

 

They know for them, but not for you. You know for you and no one has any right to question your personality authority and responsibility.

[Clergicide]

In order to avoid getting derailed here, again, I'm going to make a statement about the bible so we can just look at it as a book.  Forget whether it's 'factually' true or proven historically true, or even if it is consistent.  The consistency will reveal itself if it's there and quite frankly, my honest opinion is that the factually examination of it as a historical record isn't necessary to prove nor is it even relevant.  I learned a lot, as a kid, from stories I know now are total fiction--because they taught me 'truth' of a higher sort--such as 'The little engine that could.'  I know trains don't talk--but in no way does that make the story not able to provide an invaluable lesson to countless kids.  Kids can't understand the adult world as adults, but yet they are heading for that place and must be prepared.  So we teach them with allegory and metaphor.  And it works and it's still 'truth' and is a profitable thing for mankind.  I truly don't see the bible as something we should use to prove God--it is meant to instruct us on an absolutely individual level.  But christianity has all but ruined that possibility with their folding, spindling, and mutilating in order to justify their falsely claimed exclusive right to both God and 'heaven.'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There are a lot of metaphors in the Bible that hold no weight or understanding for the peoples of today. If the 'truth' in those methaphors are what is important, why no cultivate those from the bible and burn the rest, or take them from other sources? Why dick-around with the Christians at all?

[NimbusBirdMgp]

I'm not green!  Well, only onboard a sea-going vessel, that is.  hee hee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A key letter slipped on me here.

 

Who says He is like the christian religion?  I really can't see any correlation, myself. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought you where making this correlation(?) You're still using the Bible to say there is a God. I think(?) What does that 2 Thes. in your signiture say? I through away the Bibles I had. I have no reference.

 

Well, traditonal slander aside--and established beliefs--why wouldn't He?  He created us--why wouldn't He have the ultimate responsibility to each and every one of us?  The christian idea of hell and what they think constitutes 'salvation' makes God seem like He's only interested in their type of piety--but the truth is that true piety is beyond human ability.  And the events in our life are not rewards or punishments, they are a direct result of the energy we put forth toward one another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So it's just entertainment to see what energy occures? Not that one may like to use it in a nice way and never see how that goes. That is me.

 

We tend to think that when we don't discover events and situations to bear up against what we think we have the right to expect from God, 

that He doesn't care, or 'allows' bad things to happen, or that He toys with us. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think it has to be right and fair for this expectation. Or else I am considering such a God as evil and wicked. Not really interested in us.

 

No where are we promised a happy go lucky life free of human pain, stresses, and difficulties.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

See! Not even God can face himself. Because such should had been a promise, if such a God is interested in us.

 

I personally don't see how such a care-free life would build anyone's character or bring them closer to a divine state of thinking--it's the main ingredient of a spoiled brat, IMO. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If God's not interested in us. Character doesn't mean a thing. I am not care-free. If I look to subtle things in life and anything divine remains elusive to making it more idea to energy. Then I see such a God fighting against itself. Without respect of knowing me either. Such a God is a Barbarian!

 

I've had some pretty stiff times in my life, and hardships, and at the time they were , in fact they were the worst time I've ever endured.  Sometimes I wondered if the sun would ever shine again,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's irronic to me, because I see too much of the Sun and hate it. When will I see some clouds and rain? Never do. My mind is getting lost with some of the rest of this right now. Too much for me to deal with at the moment. But such a God isn't letting me find what is important to me.