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Getting A Christian To Question His Or Her Own Salvation


pk62281
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Maybe you guys have thought of this already, and have perfected this method, but please hear me out.

 

 

Whenever I have a religious discussion with a Christian, and I point out to them the many flaws, logical fallacies, contradictions etc. within Christianity, he or she will almost always retreat to one of the following statements.

 

“It’s god’s rules”

 

“Who are we to question god”

 

“God works in mysterious ways”

 

“His ways our higher than ours”

 

(I’m sure you all can think of others. I equate these statements as putting your fingers in your years and singing jingle bells really loudly)

 

It seems like the conversation is usually me sending a volley of offensive attacks against Christianity, and the Christian on the defensive and having to resort to holing themselves up in “pillbox” type statements. I wouldn’t consider myself an exceptionally smart person, nor a good debater, but when something is riddled with so many holes, it’s just too easy to expose.

 

 

I was thinking about this, and I may have thought of another way to pull them out of their pillboxes. The whole idea is to have them question their salvation and wonder if he or she will actually end up in hell. This is how I imagine the conversation going. I’ll use god punishing people eternally for a finite amount of “sin” as an example.

 

 

Ex-C: Is it wrong to punish or torture excessively for a crime?

 

Xtian: Yes

 

Ex-C: If somebody commits a finite amount of sin, and is punished eternally for it, isn’t that excessive and therefore makes god immoral?

 

Xtian: No

 

Ex-C: Why not? You just said it is wrong to punish excessively

 

Xtian: It’s god’s rules. Who are we to question his ways

 

Ex-C: Ok. So what you’re saying is if god does something that we consider immoral by our own standards, its not immoral because he’s god?

 

Xtian:…… umm sure.. yeah.

 

Ex-C: If that’s the case, what other things can he do that we consider immoral, yet still be considered perfect? Couldn’t he lie, or deceive, or bring harm for no reason? How are you so sure that he’s going to keep his end of the deal with you? Who are you to judge that? His ways are higher. You believe that if you have Jesus in your heart, and that you’re bound for heaven. Couldn’t he have fooled you this whole time into thinking that you’re saved but actually not? What if he changes his mind? What if there is some other piece of information that you are missing, and he sends you to hell for not knowing that? He’s totally capable of doing things that are considered very immoral by our standards, how are you so sure he won’t do them against you?

 

Xtian: umm….. shit…

 

 

You guys could probably think of something better for that last part, but I’m going to try this out the next time I have a discussion.

 

 

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Guest riverrunner

dude that's awesome. i love it. i have realized they will have this intricate web of excuses built up for their tyrannical god but it's definitely worth a shot.

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It would only work on those very thoughtful or off balance. Most will blank out.

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Guest I Love Dog

I like to ask:

 

"How would you feel about telling your beautiful little children born out of love, innocent and loving humans, dependent on you for love and guidance, that they are disgusting little sinners, not fit to be alive, and who will spend forever burning in hell if they don't believe in, grovel, bow down to and worship an invisible being that lives "out there" somewhere?"

 

How many of them could honestly answer that as "Yes"?

 

What a sick religion!

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Guest Sunnigirl

I guess your imagined conversation would also only work on those who believe that hell is for humans as well as satan. I have met Chrsitians who believe in annilation of humans who won't go to heaven. They will simply cease to exist. I guess yourreaction to a God who sends people to hell are also the reactions that some Christians have for believing in annilation. I have never really seriously looked at it though, I have to confess.

Sunnigirl

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Great question!

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Guest Babylonian Dream

Brilliant! I've actually moved my mother by discovering doing the same thing. She now created ad hoc a new excuse, "the Bible is the word of God, but the bad parts the kings (unnamed and unknown) changed to suit their purposes (those changes also left unnamed and unknown)."

 

She caught on to how the Bible evolved, at least in part, but it was the kings who influenced how it was written as well haha.

 

I've even got her to vaguely, almost, admit that God was a dictator.

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I'll play Christians Advocate here.

 

Ex-C: If somebody commits a finite amount of sin, and is punished eternally for it, isn’t that excessive and therefore makes god immoral?

 

BrainDeadFundie: No, because sin against an infinite God is the ultimate sin that deserves eternal punishment.

 

The answer of course is absurd, but it is how they think. Maybe if you get this response you just facepalm, smile and bid them a good day. Debating any further would be like taking crazy pills.

 

I do like the argument regarding torture though.

 

Ex-C: Is it wrong to torture someone regardless of the severity of the crime?

 

BrainDeadFundie: Yes

 

Ex-C: Then god must be immoral, because he tortures people for all eternity because they have committed his ultimate crime, not accepting christ.

 

Well that's a variation anyway. The rest of the debate could procede as described above. Ultimately, the genius of the argument made by pk62281 is that it get the christian to reconcile what he or she considers to be moral with what god is doing.

 

 

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I just figured that if you get a fundie to wonder if god will really send them to heaven or not, that might be a good way to get them to snap themselves out it. If god can torture excessively yet still be considered perfect, what else can he do and still be considered perfect? I would consider torture to be in my top ten of most immoral things you can do. If can do that and still maintain perfect status, he can basically do whatever he wants. He could even change his mind about the gospel, deceive, or lie. In fact, he's already used deceit! Why do you think there are fossils and why do we have vestigial traits? God put them there to trick us! If I didn't give a rat's ass about the fundie I was talking to, I might even start taunting him or her after I make that argument with something like..

 

 

"LOL you're going to hell too!"

"After you die, god's gonna be like Sike!!! I changed my mind, the muslims were right!"

 

Who am I kidding. There's literally nothing we can say or do to get them to snap out of it. Even if I invented and validated a "time viewer" in which we can view events in the past, and then viewed biblical times and saw that there was no Jesus, or saw dudes just making shit up while writing the bible, or saw jesus having gay sex with one of the disciples, the fundies would figure out some goofy way to half ass rationalize it.

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Most fundies dont't want to loose faith and will perform mental gymnastics to keep it. However, I'm going to use this argument. If someone really wants to wake up I'll help.

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I've even got her to vaguely, almost, admit that God was a dictator.

 

I actually preached that about a year before deconverting. I figured since it was true, we'd better get used to the idea that Heaven is a kingdom, not a democracy, and we didn't get to vote on God's will. I didn't like it, but I didn't like the idea of damnation even more. I'm glad that it was all malarkey to begin with.

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