SirPhoenix Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 If I didn't know any better, I would say that your friend is very close to deconversion. He won't debate you without the anger and insults because if he attempted a rational rebuttle, he would know how weak his arguments are. He is close to leaving it all behind as well, and it scares the crap out of him. If the bible isn't true, then what has he done with his life, his vocation, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flockoff Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 BTW this was in response to a couple of funny "Atheist motivational posters I found online and posted to my FB account. - Sorry, its kinda long. Could you post those here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFundiDCLawyer Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFundiDCLawyer Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Ok, you were right - I'm done. There is only so much stupidity and ignorance that I can take. Here is he last response: Really? What clear, rational, objective evidence would it take to satisfy you that God is real and His Word is true? Would God have to appear in person and prove Himself to you? Would that be clear enough? What if a dead relative rose from the grave and warned you of the awful hell he has been suffering in? Would that be enough? No - don't answer that. I already know the answer..... Luke 16:27-31 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. See, there really is no point in debating just for the sake of debate. Either you accept the truth of God's Word or you reject it. You have chosen to reject it. There is no evidence that I or anyone else can ever present to you that will change that. Peter, James and John were on the mount with Jesus and saw Him transfigured before their own eyes and then heard the voice of God from heaven. Yet, Peter said..... 2Peter 1:16-21 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Peter said the Scriptures are 'more sure' than seeing with his own eyes and hearing with his own ears. That's because the Scriptures have the power to reach into the heart that goes far beyond what any physical evidence can do..... Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. God does not owe you an explanation for anything. He has already given you ample evidence that He is who He says He is. You have been blinded by the deceiver. Do you know how Satan does that to people? I'll show you..... II Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. That's right - he blinds their MINDS!!!! The very thing that you put so much stock in - your mind's ability to weigh the evidence and discern the truth based on what you understand through scientific observation and open examination of the facts, etc., etc., etc. - is that part of you that Satan uses to deceive people and turn them from the truth!!! Man's mind is so finite!!! Our knowledge is limited!!! Our understanding is limited!!! Our available evidence is so limited!!! Yet, we think we know so much!!! We have become so smart that we can no longer see the truth of the Gospel!!! Satan is very good at what he does!!! He understands the prideful hearts of men and that if he can fill our minds with a bunch of false knowledge we will become so arrogant in our learning that we will think we know more than these simpletons who believe the 'fairy tales' of the Bible. God uses the mind as well. He wants to reason with man. He has provided man with abundant evidence of His existence and the validity of His Word. I will no longer debate with you about the 'science' or the 'evidence' or the 'facts' behind your objections to the Bible. To answer your question - yes, I am always open to the truth. But I've yet to hear you speak one word of truth. Falsehood is easy to recognize when you already know the truth. And as for your part - you are blinded to the truth, and therefore don't recognize it when I present it. That being the case, there is no point in debating any further. I have no desire to listen to endless case-building against God using false evidence trumped up by blind, arrogant, so-called intellectuals. And you have no intention of accepting anything I say unless I can prove it to your satisfaction - which is impossible, because you are not debating to learn truth but, rather, to debunk it. Every argument for my side is met by yet another objection based on false science designed only to block me, and not in any way to shed any light of truth on the subject. The bottom line is this - if you really cared anything about the truth you would take off the blinders of false intellectualism and really dig in to the evidence. But you won't do that because the wisdom of this world has blinded you to the point where you already think you know the truth - God is a myth. You say - give me evidence, show me proof!!! God says - you have Moses and the prophets and the scriptures and the testimony of men and the historical evidence and the evidence of all creation that testifies of Me. If you will not hear them, neither would you hear even if I gave you the proof you so arrogantly require of Me. I will pray for you. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeplessGhost Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 ......... wow. just. wow. Now I would propose sending him a much less polite letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 haha,,,,,,,, the last email was damn funny,,,,,,,,, carpet bombing with all he got, and say, I quit, you are stubborn,,,,,,, not surprising but kinda anti-climax thats all..... come to think of it, don't those arguments sounds familiar? oh, ya, I have used them somewhere many moons ago,,,,,,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFundiDCLawyer Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 ......... wow. just. wow. Now I would propose sending him a much less polite letter. Yeah, thats what I was thinking too! He is proven how arrogant he is and I doubt he would want to keep any kind of dialoge open, even on non-religious subjects seeing how close-minded I am That being said, I'll probably sleep on it and respond tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeplessGhost Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 You may want to tell him that he is using the bible to prove the bible. It would also be a good idea to ask him why he does not want to associate with someone who has a different belief system than he does and also reiterate your question about what it would take to convince him his religion is not real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFundiDCLawyer Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 I'm tired of talking to him, he can go to "hell"! Wow, You know what; I am tired of trying to have a civil conversation with you. I enjoy civil discourse and rational debate, but all I have been met with is your accusations and your arrogant condescending tone. I am not sure what I did to deserve the level of hostility that you appear to have towards me other than that I dare to hold a belief that is opposite to yours. What’s more is that while you claim to have answered my questions at every turn, you have failed to offer any kind of proof outside of “the flying pink unicorn in the sky says so” “God doesn’t owe me an explanation”???? WTF-of course “he” does! I am a rational, sentient human being – I have every right to question beliefs that I am being expected to follow, especially if they are extraordinary claims that rest on the supernatural. One of my favorite quotes is from Thomas Jefferson. “Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blind-folded fear. Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences.... If it end in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others it will procure for you” Furthermore, your emails read as if they were taken directly out of the chapter on “How to spot Logical fallacies” in any Critical Thinking textbook. You spend most of your time with ad hominine arguments attacking me and the so-called intellectuals, a word you hurl like an insult(like somehow thinking for oneself is a bad thing), rather than trying to answer my most basic questions. Furthermore, you quote scripture after scripture in an attempt to prove the validity of scripture??? That is circular reasoning – that is like me claiming to be superman, but the only evidence I offer is that I said so. Better yet, it is like the Pope declaring that he is god on earth-only by his say so (sadly millions take him at his word and are deceived by him). You can quote all the scripture you want, but that doesn’t make it true. Your claim over and over again the “truth” of the bible but you offer nothing in the way of proof to back up that claim. You claim that Moses and the prophets should prove it to me, yet I reject the very scripture you are quoting as well as doubt the historical validity of their very existence. You may not believe this (and frankly I don’t care anymore whether you do or not) but I spent years agonizing over these decisions. I spent years researching and studying. This was not a decision I came to lightly or quickly. I studied the apologetic works and the works of atheists and creationists and evolutionists, etc., etc., etc. Bottom line the Christian faith comes down to the basis of the validity of the bible as the word of god, a premise that after all my research I could no longer accept. You seem to be hung up on the science arguments for some reason, but science aside; it is the internal contradictions (among other things) which eventually demonstrated to me that the bible is not the word of god. I offered a couple of examples to you as a demonstration of the research I have done and you completely ignored them – you didn’t even bother to try and answer them, instead choosing to hurl more attacks on my closed-mindedness. Your refusal to even try and answer them leads me to two possible conclusions. One, you are so arrogant and conceited in your own self-assured, self-righteousness that you cannot possible fathom the even remotest chance that you could be wrong (whose close minded now) or Two, the arguments I raised stuck a nerve, you realize deep down inside (maybe even subconsciously) that what I have to say has validity and that scares you. It scares you to be faced with the realization that everything you have based your life and world view around could possibly be wrong – so you react emotionally out of anger and fear. You know, if you had been anyone else I would have ignored your emails after the first response. I engaged in discussion with you out of the respect that I had for you and your family and for the friendship we once shared. You have said one thing that I agree with though; there is no longer any point in continuing this discussion. I wish you and your family well. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirPhoenix Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 ......... wow. just. wow. Now I would propose sending him a much less polite letter. Yeah, thats what I was thinking too! He is proven how arrogant he is and I doubt he would want to keep any kind of dialoge open, even on non-religious subjects seeing how close-minded I am That being said, I'll probably sleep on it and respond tomorrow. I bet you'll be a lot more polite to him, even with the gloves off, than he was to you. I think it is so ironic how most exers have a more "Chirst Like" attitude than Christians do. We aren't required to act with kindness or choose to show mercy. If we do, it's becaue we have decided to do so based on the type of person we want to be. It's easy when you have an instruction book, even if it is filled with tons of crazy shit. It's a lot harder when you have to look at a situation and decide what is right and ethical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free2Bme Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I'm tired of talking to him, he can go to "hell"! Wow, You know what; I am tired of trying to have a civil conversation with you. I enjoy civil discourse and rational debate, but all I have been met with is your accusations and your arrogant condescending tone. I am not sure what I did to deserve the level of hostility that you appear to have towards me other than that I dare to hold a belief that is opposite to yours. What’s more is that while you claim to have answered my questions at every turn, you have failed to offer any kind of proof outside of “the flying pink unicorn in the sky says so” “God doesn’t owe me an explanation”???? WTF-of course “he” does! I am a rational, sentient human being – I have every right to question beliefs that I am being expected to follow, especially if they are extraordinary claims that rest on the supernatural. One of my favorite quotes is from Thomas Jefferson. “Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blind-folded fear. Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences.... If it end in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others it will procure for you” Furthermore, your emails read as if they were taken directly out of the chapter on “How to spot Logical fallacies” in any Critical Thinking textbook. You spend most of your time with ad hominine arguments attacking me and the so-called intellectuals, a word you hurl like an insult(like somehow thinking for oneself is a bad thing), rather than trying to answer my most basic questions. Furthermore, you quote scripture after scripture in an attempt to prove the validity of scripture??? That is circular reasoning – that is like me claiming to be superman, but the only evidence I offer is that I said so. Better yet, it is like the Pope declaring that he is god on earth-only by his say so (sadly millions take him at his word and are deceived by him). You can quote all the scripture you want, but that doesn’t make it true. Your claim over and over again the “truth” of the bible but you offer nothing in the way of proof to back up that claim. You claim that Moses and the prophets should prove it to me, yet I reject the very scripture you are quoting as well as doubt the historical validity of their very existence. You may not believe this (and frankly I don’t care anymore whether you do or not) but I spent years agonizing over these decisions. I spent years researching and studying. This was not a decision I came to lightly or quickly. I studied the apologetic works and the works of atheists and creationists and evolutionists, etc., etc., etc. Bottom line the Christian faith comes down to the basis of the validity of the bible as the word of god, a premise that after all my research I could no longer accept. You seem to be hung up on the science arguments for some reason, but science aside; it is the internal contradictions (among other things) which eventually demonstrated to me that the bible is not the word of god. I offered a couple of examples to you as a demonstration of the research I have done and you completely ignored them – you didn’t even bother to try and answer them, instead choosing to hurl more attacks on my closed-mindedness. Your refusal to even try and answer them leads me to two possible conclusions. One, you are so arrogant and conceited in your own self-assured, self-righteousness that you cannot possible fathom the even remotest chance that you could be wrong (whose close minded now) or Two, the arguments I raised stuck a nerve, you realize deep down inside (maybe even subconsciously) that what I have to say has validity and that scares you. It scares you to be faced with the realization that everything you have based your life and world view around could possibly be wrong – so you react emotionally out of anger and fear. You know, if you had been anyone else I would have ignored your emails after the first response. I engaged in discussion with you out of the respect that I had for you and your family and for the friendship we once shared. You have said one thing that I agree with though; there is no longer any point in continuing this discussion. I wish you and your family well. James Good for you! Sometimes you just have to put politeness aside and say it like it is. You tried hard to keep a civil conversation with him and all he threw at you were insults. I'm sorry that a friendship has been lost, but some relationships just aren't good and you have to move on for your own sanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlw1980 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 You were kinder than I would've been, for a lot longer than I would've been. This fool doesn't deserve any more of your time. HIS mind is the one that is made up. I'm sorry to say it, but some friendships aren't worth saving. Kudos to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFundiDCLawyer Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 The only reason I kept on so long was because there was a time I considered him a close friend and he was very helpful to my wife and I when we first got married. There are several people from my old church who have acted this way - most of them I have ignored after the first contact - no point in having a discussion if it is going to be irrational and one-sided. With him, I guess I was just holding out hope that I could retain the friendship - of course he has made that impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaturalMary63 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I think that's a brilliant and very thoughtful response. (And I still think you have much more patience than I do.) Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I will pray for you. This is the response you got for your thoughtful letter? The xian fuck you? What an ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xtech Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I have recently had a very similar email conversation, except in this case it was a proselytizing attempt. My friend used very much the same kind of approach as your friend did to my criticisms. Sounds like they operate from the same playbook. Circular reasoning and equivocation are the rationalization that follows the emotional choice of faith. I would press for a more honest admission from the believer that he simply has faith, and not try to post hoc make his Christianity a supposedly logical, reasoned decision. And not attack those who think differently. Someone noted, and my ears perked up at this, that your friend's fearful and angry comments betray an insecurity with his position of belief. All Christians have questions, at some level, now or in the past, about their faith. You deftly were chipping at those cracks in his faith. If you have the patience and good debating skills, and you do, these conversations are great. They may help a true believer come to a less rabidly defensive position about religion. To me it is an act of true friendship and love on your part. Understandable that it needed to end, though, considering the hostility coming from your friend. In my case, I had to make it clear that though I had no interest in converting, I valued our conversation and wish to continue our friendship, that conversation about religion is not necessarily out of bounds, and if he ever wished to discuss his doubts about Christianity he could do so with me, free from the judgment and pressure he would get from his Christian friends. For I was a believer, once, and I know how it feels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 The only reason I kept on so long was because there was a time I considered him a close friend and he was very helpful to my wife and I when we first got married. There are several people from my old church who have acted this way - most of them I have ignored after the first contact - no point in having a discussion if it is going to be irrational and one-sided. With him, I guess I was just holding out hope that I could retain the friendship - of course he has made that impossible. I think I read earlier you mentioning PCC? That crowd (and anyone who would go there or refer people there) are very arrogant thanks to their lord and god, Ruckman. The first church I went to was heavily KJO. When I left because I couldn't take their worshipping of the KJV anymore, I was basically made anathema. People who I (thought I) was close with me off completely. If I saw them in public they wouldn't even make eye contact. Keep in mind all I did was change churches with the only difference that the church wasn't KJO like they were. Some of the more arrogant ones became aggressive and started attacking me. I cast them aside quite quickly though. It's been my experience that the KJO crowd tend to be the most viscious towards people who have different views. I think it's because they know they built their faith on a deck of playing cards that will easily topple over with any sort of examination. Most people who object always "ask" WHERE IS THE WORD OF GOD THEN?! WHERE IS IT!? WHERE IS IT?!?! Anyways, hopefully the last email was a wake up call for him. I'd really be a shame to lose such a close friendship but I wouldn't be surprised if you did. I lost all my friends from that church and that was moving away, let alone becoming an atheist. EDIT: Sorry, I was thinking of PBI...not PCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC Skeptic Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 After having similar conversations with people, I have found that the topic is just too huge and all the threads are so interwoven (such as between all the Bible stories, 'actual' history and science, OT and NT, etc) that it's extremely difficult to parse these apart and stick to just one logical point at a time. It doesn't help that Xians are so used to circular reasoning, ambiguous concepts, and equivocation that they're able to squirm out of any logical corner they paint themselves into. Unless you can get him to calm down and avoid these traps, then take one aspect of one story at a time and stick to that through its conclusion, you'll end up chasing around and around in his circles until he exhausts you then claims victory. I've never managed to do that, but perhaps you have more patience than I do. I have found this to be entirely true. It is just too much to discuss, too much to type out, and usually we are relying on literally book length evidence that we can't describe, and likewise they are countering with booklength apologetics that even if we have previously embraced and now find unconvincing, we still have trouble refuting all the rhetoric. I have had many such conversations online, mostly anonymously as I am still a closet atheist to old friends and family (but many new friends know I don't' believe). I am dreading when I do come out and end up having such conversations with old friends or family. So I am trying to get prepared in advance with a lengthy decoversion story that serves as a very minor apologetic for atheism (or at least for why I don't believe the Christian mythology or the Bible as God's word). I say mild because I usually don't actually recreate any arguments, I don't' want to write a book But as I describe how my faith slowly fell apart (first accepting evolution -> then accepting Documentary Hypothesis -> then accepting the Old Testament is mostly not literal history -> then being overwhelmed by the polemics and contradictions and outright clear as day human element of the OT -> and finally having that spill over into the NT after a vicious fight from myself not to let it go), as I describe this journey I point out resources or references as best I can from which I learned. My point is simple. This is what convinced me. If you wish to reconvince me of the christian faith, you must address these facts. If you wish to convince me that evolution is not true, you must explain the nested hierarchy of fossil and genetic evidence, including viral infections and pseudogenes. If you wish to convince me the documentary hypothesis is not correct you must actually address Richard Elliott Friedman's demonstration of it in his two books. And so on. That way I won't have to argue. They can either read those sources and actually address them, or leave me alone and stop trying to convert me. That would be fine with me because I do not want to talk about religion anyway. I will not accept yet some other apologetic text from Lee Strobel which won't address any of my previous concerns because even if I have no answer for some of the convoluted and overbearing apologetics he might spin, that simply won't overpower my other knowledge that nearly the entire bible is fiction. Alas, even writing this thing, with the advantages of time and much editing, etc, is proving too daunting a task. I have been writing it for nearly a year and spend most of my time not writing at all, or just rereading what I have written over and over, feeling very unsatisfied but too overwhelmed to do the necessary over hauls or track down the now lost references. I have recently stopped drinking on a daily basis in order to be healthier so hopefully having more sober nights then not will lend me time to finally tackle this thing and pump it out. Family and friends now know that I haven't attended church for over a year, so the questions are starting to build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Debate on faith and bible is time consuming and mental draining but having a jab here and there is fun though. Let's see some reasons I dislike debate: 1. Christians usually quote chunks from bible which we disagree the source and logic and they are better prepared generally. 2. Hated when they quote "by faith,,,,,", "his ways are higher ,,,,,", "god works in mysterious ways,,,," those half baked excuses 3. I am not Hawkins or Hutchins, and even though I do read some of them, I cannot remember all their arguments and I am not specialist in philosophy or biologist or cosmologist or whatever. To counter an argument, I probably to read a whole bloody book and before you know it, they change topics. 4. Debating on different planes,,,,, no evidence, means non-existence Vs you cannot prove non-existence So debate is not my forte, and sarcasm, that I can do. Love to read/see debates though and see who gets agitated and frustrated 1st 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droptail Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Debate on faith and bible is time consuming and mental draining but having a jab here and there is fun though. Let's see some reasons I dislike debate: 1. Christians usually quote chunks from bible which we disagree the source and logic and they are better prepared generally. 2. Hated when they quote "by faith,,,,,", "his ways are higher ,,,,,", "god works in mysterious ways,,,," those half baked excuses 3. I am not Hawkins or Hutchins, and even though I do read some of them, I cannot remember all their arguments and I am not specialist in philosophy or biologist or cosmologist or whatever. To counter an argument, I probably to read a whole bloody book and before you know it, they change topics. 4. Debating on different planes,,,,, no evidence, means non-existence Vs you cannot prove non-existence This is a good layout of the reasons that debate with Christians can get tedious in pretty short order, especially if they ignore that I'm an ex-believer (i.e. I've used their own arguments myself). I'd prefer, instead of regressing to addressing the beliefs that Christians currently hold, to progress from a non-deity foundation and see what novel things I can learn about humans and nature with our sciences...just leave the believers behind in their own cacaphonic memeworld. Not always possible, of course, with family and friends... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirPhoenix Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I will not accept yet some other apologetic text from Lee Strobel which won't address any of my previous concerns because even if I have no answer for some of the convoluted and overbearing apologetics he might spin, that simply won't overpower my other knowledge that nearly the entire bible is fiction. But, but....Lee Strobel was a journalist. Any how did that work out for him? It's far more lucrative to write drivel for the christian masses than to work for a newspaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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