All The Questions Dodged By Rayskidude.

[bornagainathiest]

Here you go, Ray!

 

These questions are never going to go away (even if you do from time to time) until you've answered all of them.

Back again, Ray!

 

Oh gee, look at that! You failed to answer this one, from my earlier posting.

 

In the OT, Abraham and Ishmael, as well as Jacob and Aaron are all described as being, "Gathered to their people" when they died. How? When? In what way? Who is their people? Where are these four now?

Describe what you mean exactly Ray and try not to make your answer contradict what Paul says about Jesus being the firstfruit of those to rise from the dead.

 

So then, what did it mean to Abraham, Ishmael, Jacob and Aaron, to be 'gathered to their people'?

How did this, "gathering" happen?

And when?

Gathered to where?

What does scripture mean by, "their people"?

Where are these four fundamentally-important OT personages now?

 

Please answer.

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Ok, here's some more indigestible items of scripture for you to chew over.

 

Genesis 37: 29-36.

(Here's a preface for you Ray - so that you know that this the literal truth and not a metaphor. Ok? I know you have a problem distinguishing reportage from metaphor, so here's a helping hand. Please read on...)

Joseph sold by His Brothers

29When Reuben returned to the pit and saw that Joseph was not in the pit, he(AA) tore his clothes 30and returned to his brothers and said, "The boy(AB) is gone, and I, where shall I go?" 31Then they took(AC) Joseph’s robe and slaughtered a goat and dipped the robe in the blood. 32And they sent the robe of many colors and brought it to their father and said, "This we have found; please identify whether it is your son’s robe or not." 33And he identified it and said, "It is my son’s robe.(AD) A fierce animal has devoured him. Joseph is without doubt torn to pieces." 34Then Jacob tore his garments and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days. 35All his sons and all his daughters(AE) rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, "No,(AF) I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning." Thus his father wept for him. 36Meanwhile(AG) the Midianites had sold him in Egypt to Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh,(AH) the captain of the guard.

 

"...I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning?"

 

What? Not up to heaven? But you say that all true Christian believers immediately go up to Christ's presence in heaven. Isn't that right, Ray? Isn't that what would happen, if the what Jesus said to the thief, was literally true? So why's Joseph talking about going down to Sheol? Is this a metaphor, perhaps? Nope. Can't be. The preface, 'Joseph sold by His Brothers' tells us that it must be the literal truth - a totally and absolutely accurate and perfectly reliable account of historical events. Not a metaphor at all. Can you resolve this contradiction please?

 

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What about Job?

Praised by God Himself as, "...blameless and upright, who fears God (Me!) and turns away from evil." Since it is impossible for God to boast or exaggerate and since God always speaks the perfect truth, Job must have had these qualities, right?

And wasn't it just a little while ago, in this very forum, that you said that the whole Book of Job is historical? Isn't that right Ray? You did say that, didn't you? So, being a true and historical account of what God said, what Satan said and what Job, his wife and friends said - this must be true, right?

 

So, what does Job say about those who die? They go right to heaven, don't they? That's his hope, isn't it?

 

Job Continues: My Life has no Hope. (This is the preface for Job 7, from the English Standard Version - your Bible version of choice, Ray. So this must be the truth!)

 

9As(Q) the cloud fades and vanishes,

so he who® goes down to Sheol does not come up;

10he(S) returns no more to his house,

nor does his(T) place know him anymore.

 

Ummm... help us out please Ray! Clearly Job was wrong. Wasn't he?

 

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King David, now.

Ok, this is a Psalm - just a song. It doesn't have to be literally true. Clear?

 

Psalm 6: 4 & 5

4Turn, O LORD, deliver my life;

save me for the sake of your steadfast love.

5For in(H) death there is no remembrance of you;

in Sheol who will give you praise?

 

Hmmm... you'd have thought that someone as close to God as David wouldn't have written these things? You know. About there being no memory of God among the dead? Perhaps they're all sleeping? That might also explain why the dead don't praise God.

 

Don't fret, Ray. It's just a song. David's obviously wrong here and you're right. Relax.

 

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Let's hear some wise words from King Solomon. Surely he'll know that all true believers go up to heaven when they die?

 

Ecclesiastes 9

('Nuther preface, Ray. So this must be true! Ok?)

Death Comes to All

 

1But all this I laid to heart, examining it all,(A) how the righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God. Whether it is love or hate, man does not know; both are before him. 2© It is the same for all, since(D) the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil,[a] to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As the good one is, so is the sinner, and he who(E) swears is as he who shuns an oath. 3This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that(F) the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and(G) madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know that they will die, but(H) the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for(I) the memory of them is forgotten. 6Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Enjoy Life with the One You Love

 

7Go,(J) eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.

8(K) Let your garments be always white. Let not(L) oil be lacking on your head.

 

9Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your(M) vain life that he has given you under the sun, because that is your(N) portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun. 10Whatever your hand finds to do,(O) do it with your might,(P) for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

 

The dead know nothing. (Must be asleep then.)

They have no more reward. (Not going immediately up to Jesus?)

Their love, hate and envy have already perished. (Because those who sleep do nothing at all - they don't love, don't hate and don't envy.)

There is no work, thought, knowledge or wisdom in Sheol. (Because all there are sleeping.)

...to which you are going. (Not up to heaven?)

 

Contradiction alert, Ray!!!! The 'true' accounts of Lazarus and the rich Man and that of the crucified Thief, don't agree with these wise words - if you take those two NT accounts l-i-t-e-r-a-l-l-y.

(Hint. Treat them as non-literal. It harmonizes things.)

 

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So what is this Sheol that Abraham, Ishmael, Jacob, Aaron, Job, David and Solomon all talk about as being the place the dead go to?

 

Well, Ouroboros was right when mentioned this... http://en.wikipedi.org/wiki/Sheol

 

To the Jews, Sheol was where all of the dead went, regardless of their faith in God, or not. This explains why Revelation says what it does...

 

The Judgment of the Dead

 

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Hades is the NT term for the Jewish Sheol.

So, when God commands, the sleepers awake and arise when death and Hades/Sheol give up their dead - not before. Hades/Sheol cannot give up the likes of Enoch and Elijah and Jesus, because these people have either been taken up alive into heaven or have conquered death and been resurrected in the new, imperishable flesh - they can no longer die. From that time forward, the physical condition of death (which came thru Adam) cannot affect anyone. Jesus conquered it's power.

 

Not only Jesus. Everyone who has died, is now clothed in this same imperishable flesh. However, not everyone's name is written in the Book of Life. Only true believers have their names written there. All others are cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death. It is called that because the first death (which claimed every mortal) is now out of a job. Since nobody can ever die a physical death again, Hades/Sheol is out of a job too, metaphorically speaking. That's why these things are also cast into the Fire. They have no more use or purpose.

 

The Lake of Fire is permanent, unlike the first death and Hades/Sheol. These were only a temporary conditions of 'sleep' and a temporary holding place for the 'sleepers'. With no more physical death, there are no more temporarily sleeping dead. Without any sleeping dead, there is no need for a temporary place to keep them until the appointed Day of Resurrection and Judgement. These things have just happened. Now it's all over. Finished. The End.

 

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Please answer and refute what I've written here Ray. Also the other stuff, in previous messages.

 

I'll have some more for you soon, so hurry up!

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

More for you to answer, Ray.

 

rayskidude, on 22 November 2010 - 06:50 AM, said:

Here, you simply reveal your cowardice. Or the fact that no one with any Christian credentials holds to the nonsense you've put forth.

Face it, BAA - I've scored the TouchDown and I've already done my victory dance in the end zone - the refs have reviewed and confirmed that I scored. You, on the other hand, are just about to get an 'unsportsmanlike conduct' penalty. Stop, before you embarrass yourself further.

 

 

"No one with any Christian credentials holds to the nonsense I've put forth?"

 

Izzat so, Ray?

 

Shall we see what God Himself says about this?

 

You'd accept His Christian credentials, wouldn't you?

 

Ok then, I'm cutting and pasting this from the Biblegateway site, using the English Standard Version - which is the version of scripture you seem to be most familiar with. To get the right context for this passage, look up Daniel 10 and note that this a vision, not a visit to heaven, just like Paul's and John's visions. Daniel is told many, many things about what must come to pass in the future. The passage below deals with the events at the End of Time, a.k.a. Judgement Day. Care to take a guess at the identity of who's speaking to Daniel? If you're not sure, compare the description of Daniel's riverside companion in chapter 10 with Revelation 1:12-18, taking special note of the keys that this person has and what they unlock.

 

Happy to carry on?

 

Now, you'll see that I've also included the relevant footnotes, so that you can check out the scripture I've been quoting at you. Notice how it all agrees with what I've been saying about the sleep of the dead?

Doesn't agree with your, "Beam me up, Gabriel!" school of literal theology, does it?

 

Daniel 12 (English Standard Version)

 

Daniel 12

 

The Time of the End

 

1"At that time shall arise(A) Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered,© everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2And many of those who(D) sleep in(E) the dust of the earth shall(F) awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3(G) And those who are wise(H) shall shine like the brightness of the sky above;[a] and(I) those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4But you, Daniel,(J) shut up the words and(K) seal the book, until(L) the time of the end.(M) Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

5Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on(N) this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6And someone said to(O) the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream,(P) "How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?" 7And I heard(Q) the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream;® he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and(S) swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a(T) time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of(U) the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished. 8I heard,(V) but I did not understand. Then I said, "O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?" 9He said,(W) "Go your way, Daniel,(X) for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10(Y) Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but(Z) the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand,(AA) but those who are wise shall understand. 11And from the time that(AB) the regular burnt offering is taken away and(AC) the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. 12(AD) Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 13(AE) But go your way till the end.(AF) And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at(AG) the end of the days."

 

Footnotes:

Daniel 12:3 Hebrew the expanse; compare Genesis 1:6-8

Daniel 12:6 Or who was upstream; also verse 7

Cross references:

Daniel 12:1 : Daniel 10:13

Daniel 12:1 : Jer 30:7; Matt 24:21; Mark 13:19; Rev 16:18

Daniel 12:1 : Exodus 32:32, 33; Ezek 13:9; Luke 10:20; Rev 20:12

Daniel 12:2 : Psalm 17:15; John 11:11

Daniel 12:2 : Isa 26:19; Ezek 37:1-10

Daniel 12:2 : Matt 25:46; John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15; Rev 20:12, 13

Daniel 12:3 : Daniel 11:33

 

"And many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting shame and contempt." Yep. That's the sleeping dead awakening for Judgement and being divided into the saved and the damned.

 

"But you Daniel, shut up the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end." When's that, Ray? In the time of Abraham? In the time of Jesus? Now? No, sir! The dead do not rise until the End times. Capiche?

 

"Then I Daniel, looked and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream." Three persons in Daniel's vision, Ray. Any guesses as to who these others might be? Try Genesis 18: 1 - 3 for a clue.

 

"But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of days." Not when Daniel dies? Ooops!

 

Now then Ray, I've saved the best bit till last! This one's just for you! Enjoy!

 

verse 10.

"Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked will act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand."

 

"No one with any Christian credentials holds to the nonsense you've put forth."

 

Who doesn't understand, Ray?

Who rejects the sleep of the dead?

Who contradicts scripture?

Who acts wickedly?

Who would that be, I wonder?

 

BAA.

 

p.s.

More to come tomorrow!

 

You can stop me turning up the heat on you at any time... just lmk!

[bornagainathiest]

And more...

 

Posted 24 November 2010 - 06:00 AM

Hello Ray!

 

It's that time again. That time I promised you. The time when I show from scripture just how far you've deviated and fallen from a true understanding of God's word, Mr. 'True Believer'.

 

Ready? (Don't care if you're not!)

 

Here we gooooooooo!

 

1 Samuel 28: 3-20 (ESV)

 

3Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him© in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put(D) the mediums and the necromancers out of the land. 4The Philistines assembled and came and encamped(E) at Shunem. And Saul gathered all Israel, and they encamped(F) at Gilboa. 5When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. 6And when Saul inquired of the LORD,(G) the LORD did not answer him, either(H) by dreams, or(I) by Urim, or by prophets. 7Then Saul said to his servants,(J) "Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her." And his servants said to him, "Behold, there is a medium at(K) En-dor."

 

8So Saul(L) disguised himself and put on other garments and went, he and two men with him. And they came to the woman by night. And he said,(M) "Divine for me by a spirit and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you." 9The woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done,(N) how he has cut off the mediums and the necromancers from the land. Why then are you laying a trap for my life to bring about my death?" 10But Saul swore to her by the LORD,(O) "As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing." 11Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me." 12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul." 13The king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth." 14He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped(P) in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.

 

15Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and(Q) God has turned away from me and® answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do." 16And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? 17The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for(S) the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18(T) Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you(U) and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."

 

20Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel.

 

Wow! Spooky, huh?

 

"Then the woman said,'Whom shall I bring up for you?'" " Up? Up, from out of the earth? That can't be right, can it, Ray? According to you, Samuel went up to heaven. Surely the witch meant that she'd bring him d-o-w-n?

"He said, 'Bring up Samuel for me." Hmmm.... looks like King Saul expected Samuel to come up from Sheol as well? Didn't he know that all true believers go immediately into the presence of Jesus when they die? What a schmuck that Saul was!

"I see a god coming up out of the earth."

Now this needs a little more explanation.

Look here... http://www.scripture...OTpdf/1sa28.pdf and zoom in on verse 13. The woman saw aleim or Elohim, coming up out of the earth. This does not mean God himself.

Look here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim ...and go down to the section, "Pagan gods, angels and judges". So the witch is seeing a spirit alright, but not the spirit of the God of Israel. Saying that would be blasphemy!

"Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Good question, Samuel! Why indeed? Because the living are forbidden to consult with the spirits of the dead. It is unlawful and against God's command. These matters are not for human eyes and ears. We know this, not just because God told Saul to outlaw this practice, but because elsewhere in scripture we see God directly commanding these things to be 'sealed up'.

 

Remember what God said to Daniel and to John on Patmos? Seal these things up. The time has not yet come. Got that, Ray? Nobody is in heaven yet - because the proper time has not yet come.

Even when the disciples questioned Jesus about the future, what did He say?

 

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

 

See? Jesus knew exactly what they we asking. The disciples wanted to know when God would restore the nation of Israel from the dust. They weren't talking about a restoring of Israel's political or military power. Nope. Having recently witnessed Him conquer the power of death, the next natural question to occur in their minds was, "When do the people of Israel rise from Sheol/Hades?" We know the answer, don't we, Ray? Do I have to spell it out for you?

And what did Jesus do next? He ascended into heaven... ...and will not return until the appointed and 'sealed' day.

 

Finally, on the topic of Samuel, what about this?

"...and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me." Where? In heaven? In hell? No. In Sheol/Hades, awaiting the proper time. It all fits - unless you take parts of scripture l-i-t-e-r-a-l-l-y, when you shouldn't.

 

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John 11: 1-44

Prefaced in the ESV like this...

The Death of Lazarus / I Am The Resurrection and The Life / Jesus Weeps / Jesus Raises Lazarus

 

I won't cut-n-paste the whole passage this time. Instead I'll just use parts of it to show you how badly you're mistaken about scripture. Ok, Ray? (Once again, don't care if you're NOT ok with this.)

 

23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24(W) Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in(X) the resurrection on the last day."

 

Q. So, how did Martha know about the resurrection on the last day?

A. Unlike you Ray, Martha understood what the patriarchs and prophets of Israel had written down about what happens to the dead.

 

25Jesus said to her, (Y) "I am the resurrection and(Z) the life.[d] Whoever believes in me,(AA) though he die,(AB) yet shall he live, 26and everyone who lives and believes in me(AC) shall never die. Do you believe this?"

 

"Though he die, yet shall he live..." When do all true Christian believers live again? Do I have to say it, Ray? Not when they die.

 

How many times have you read these words without understanding them?

How long have you worshipped the false god of Literalism... years? Decades, even?

 

40Jesus said to her, (AT) "Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see(AU) the glory of God?"

 

The glory of God? Do you really want to see the glory of God Ray or do you want to persist in your errors and unbelief? You say that you love God and you believe that you're a 'true believer', yet you don't believe what scripture plainly tells you. Well?

 

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Ephesians 5: 8-17.

 

8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord. 11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. 14 This is why it is said:

 

“Wake up, sleeper,

rise from the dead,

and Christ will shine on you.”

 

15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

 

Paul's right on the money here, isn't he? Not just about the fruitless deeds of darkness, not just about finding out what God's will is and what please Him, but also the saying he quotes. Wake up, sleeper (from Sheol/Hades), rise from the dead (out of the grave) and Christ will shine on you (in heaven, at the End Times). Ok, it's metaphorical, but just look how skillfully Paul uses language to convey meaning.

 

The following are double-meanings, which I will explain to you.

 

The sleeper isn't just the dead person in the grave, they're also the living person who doesn't yet know and believe in Jesus. Though they are physically alive and awake, they might as well be asleep, because they do not know God.

Rising from the dead doesn't just mean the Day of Judgement, it's also a general call to all unbelievers to rise from their status of spiritual death (which came via Adam) and to come alive thru knowing and trusting in Christ.

Christ will shine on you (the new believer), not just in heaven, but here and now on Earth as you find out what God's will is and how you should please Him with your new life.

 

Serious question Ray!

How can you possibly find out what God's will is and how you can please Him with your life if you can't even understand His written Word properly? If your understanding is stunted, blunted and distorted by your relentlessly literal take on scripture, how can you be living the true life that God wants for you?

 

Will you be foolish or will you be wise?

 

 

Think about it!

 

BAA.[/color]

[bornagainathiest]

And so it goes...

 

Posted 24 November 2010 - 05:14 PM

Want some more, Ray?

 

(Don't care if you don't!)

 

Let's talk about Death and Hades. This deadly double-act crops up nine times in the New Testament.

 

1 & 2.

Matthew 11:23 and Luke 10:15

Jesus says that the city of Capernaum, "...will be brought down to Hades." In the original Greek (Koine) both Matthew and Luke use the word, 'hadou', meaning 'of-un-perceived' or 'unseen'.

So, Hades is clearly not the flaming, fiery hell that is the Lake of Fire, a.k.a., the Second Death, mentioned in the last chapters of Revelation. No, the meaning is quite clear. Those who are claimed by Death, fall asleep and are unperceived or unseen by those who are left behind - the living. Therefore, Capernaum is not going to go down to the Hell/the Lake of Fire. No. That city is to be taken by death and it's inhabitants will go down to Sheol/Hades and join all the other sleeping dead there.

 

3 & 4.

Acts 2:27 & 31.

"For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption."

"...he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades and did not see corruption."

In both cases, Hades is written as 'hadou'. Originally taken from Psalm 16, the writer is saying that his soul will not be abandoned to Sheol/Hades, the place where the dead sleep. He will be unperceived and unseen, like all the other dead, but he will not be abandoned and left there. This is because the Holy One (Jesus) will open up Hades on the Last Day. Therefore, just like Capernaum, we are not talking about the writer's soul being abandoned by God in the flames of Hell. No. That fiery, final destination comes after the sleeping dead have been raised from their unperceived/unseen condition. After, they have been re-clothed in new bodies of imperishable flesh and after they have been judged.

 

5.

Revelation 1:18.

"Fear not, I am the first and the last and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades."

"Hadou' again! Jesus holds the keys of Sheol/Hades and is the only one with authority to open up this sleeping place - the unperceived and unseen place.

 

6.

Revelation 6:8.

"And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And it's rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill, with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth."

'Hades' this time, not 'hadou', but the given meaning is still the same, unperceived or unseen. So those slain by sword, famine, pestilence and wild beasts will go down to Sheol/Hades, like everyone else.

 

7.

Revelation 20:13.

"And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done."

Now we come to it!

Everyone, from Adam onwards is raised and then judged. Death and Hades (rendered 'hades') are emptied and then, having served their purpose...

 

8.

Revelation 20:14.

"Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. this is the Second Death, the lake of fire."

This is when the fiery torment of the damned starts and never finishes, Ray. Clear on that?

 

Oh and didn't I say that there were 9 examples?

 

Well then. Here's number 9, just for you.

 

9.

Luke 16:23.

"The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and lazarus at his side."

Here the word is rendered, 'hade' and it's translated as meaning unperceived/unseen, just like the other eight examples.

 

So, it's not an actual event Ray. It's not the absolute and perfect and literal truth. It's a story, told by Jesus as a warning. If it had been an actual event and the rich man had been in the Lake of Fire, the Greek text wouldn't have used the word, hade'. Hades means unperceived and unseen, the condition of being one of the sleeping dead. The Lake of Fire is the final, Second Death that follows Judgement. Are we clear about that now?

 

You are wrong in your literal take on this passage.

 

The rich man could not have been in the Lake of Fire because...

 

A. His five brothers were still alive. That would not be possible if this were post-Judgement. They would either be in heaven or in the flames, with him.

 

and..

 

B. The wording is wrong. The rich man in in the unseen/unperceived place of Sheol/Hades awaiting judgement. His torment is not actual. It's a warning to get your shit together before you die - before IT IS too late.

 

You are wrong. Deal with it.

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Posted 25 November 2010 - 04:12 PM

rayskidude, on 25 November 2010 - 05:07 AM, said:

They stated that preaching God's word - for belief and practice - and participating in the church sacraments were also necessary elements of a true church. I would hold to such standards of Christian conduct. SO true Christianity requires correct views of God, Man, the Bible, salvation, the Church, and earnest Christian conduct aiming toward the goal of Christlikeness and the virtues of faith, hope & love - with the greatest being love.

 

 

So Ray, I've challenged the correctness of your 'True Christian' view of God, Man and the Bible. Note that - challenged. Past tense.

 

I've directly challenged your claim to have the correct Christian view of where the personalities of the dead go, how Christians will enter heaven and what will happen on Judgement Day.

 

Now answer the challenge.

Answer the questions put to you. Show the logic of your arguments. Demonstrate the validity of your claims. Refute my criticisms. Cite chapter and verse and explain how these support you.

 

You have a lot of work to do and any further requests about where my theology comes from will be met with the same answer as before. No!

 

No more evasions, delays or dodges, please.

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

In case you want to play the' ad hominem attack' card Ray, remember what you posted?

 

You started the name-calling, the sarcastic slurs and the insults. Not directed at me, but at the members of the church I attended. How very 'Christian' of you!

Rotten fruit, I'd say.

 

So, how about some answers to the questions piled up high in this thread?

 

Posted 26 November 2010 - 04:12 PM

bornagainathiest, on 25 November 2010 - 04:12 PM, said:

Answer the questions put to you. Show the logic of your arguments. Demonstrate the validity of your claims. Refute my criticisms. Cite chapter and verse and explain how these support you.

You have a lot of work to do and any further requests about where my theology comes from will be met with the same answer as before. No!

No more evasions, delays or dodges, please.

 

BAA.[/color]

 

I've already done so - from Luke 16, Philippians 1, II Cor 5 & 12, the thief on the cross, etc.

 

And what's this nonsense that I don't believe in the physical resurrection of the dead at the final judgement, because I most certainly do. The discussion was re: soul sleep after death. Which is bogus, proven from Scripture and by your cowardice to list its proponents, whom you must know to be untrustworthy. Are you protecting them from 'lil ol' me?"

 

Are they whiny little children who cannot defend their own firmly held beliefs?

 

And I'm still waiting to hear from you about your, as yet non-existent, theory on the formation of that all-important Martian canyon.

[bornagainathiest]

Posted 29 November 2010 - 06:17 AM

rayskidude, on 26 November 2010 - 04:12 PM, said:

bornagainathiest, on 25 November 2010 - 04:12 PM, said:

Answer the questions put to you. Show the logic of your arguments. Demonstrate the validity of your claims. Refute my criticisms. Cite chapter and verse and explain how these support you.

You have a lot of work to do and any further requests about where my theology comes from will be met with the same answer as before. No!

No more evasions, delays or dodges, please.

BAA.[/color]

 

 

I've already done so - from Luke 16, Philippians 1, II Cor 5 & 12, the thief on the cross, etc.

 

Cite where you've done so and I'll cite where I've refuted you. See? Impasse.

You can break the logjam by doing what I've asked above. Not just in Luke, Philippians and II Corinthians. Don't just stick to the New Testament. Deal with my OT quotes as well. Show us how Abraham et al expected to go right on up to Jesus when they died. Come on. The Bible's one unified body of work, isn't it? So the OT shouldn't contradict the NT, should it?

And what's this nonsense that I don't believe in the physical resurrection of the dead at the final judgement, because I most certainly do.

 

Nice! But no cigar, Ray.

The point under debate between us is the physical resurrection of the Christian dead at the final judgement - not just the physical resurrection of the dead.

Vital difference, as you well knew and decided to try and dodge by dropping the word, 'Christian'.

Your stated position is that all true Christian believers go directly to Jesus' presence on the moment of their death. Remember these?

"I'm happy to have anyone look at these verses - it's obvious that having passed from this life, believers are in paradise, God's presence."

" ...and we also see in the experience of Lazarus - that after physical death there is a conscious existence in Paradise, in the Lord's presence."

 

No soul-sleep. 'Beam me up, Gabriel!" Scripture disagrees with you Ray. I've cited the examples, now defend your position.

The discussion was re: soul sleep after death. Exactly Ray!

 

I've shown where Abraham, Isaac and many others, all the way to Paul and John - they all expected this soul-sleep of the dead. None of them expected to arrive on the heaven's transporter pad once they expired.

Which is bogus, proven from Scripture and by your cowardice to list its proponents, whom you must know to be untrustworthy. Are you protecting them from 'lil ol' me?"

Are they whiny little children who cannot defend their own firmly held beliefs?

 

It's all about the size of one's 'nads, with you, isn't it? (Worst case of testosterone poisoning I've seen in a long time.)

"Don't ask again", I said to you, remember? Then what do you do, in another futile attempt to drag this thread away from the flaws in your theology? You go and ask again!

 

This isn't about anyone else. It's about the contradictions in your beliefs. The ones you wont defend. The ones you'll try any trick and twist to avoid having to justify. The ones you won't be held accountable for. The ones you won't be pinned down on.

Now then, stop dodging and meet my challenge.

 

And I'm still waiting to hear from you about your, as yet non-existent, theory on the formation of that all-important Martian canyon.

 

OB's asked me to play it cool on this and not go to the trouble of proving (again) that you dodged what I asked you to do, back in June. So, until you toe the line, you'll wait forever. Impasse, again.

 

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Ok then Ray, here's what Phanta said.

 

You'll note that she would like to see you reply to the scripture that addresses the context and intent of each scripture.

She would not like to see you post a list of completely different scripture, with no relation to my quotes.

Clear about that?

 

Your brief is to answer each and every of my quotes, addressing the context and intent of each on the subject of soul-sleep for both Christians and non-believers.

 

You've had more than long enough - so get to it!

 

 

Posted 02 December 2010 - 09:57 AM

bornagainathiest, on 29 November 2010 - 06:17 AM, said:

Your stated position is that all true Christian believers go directly to Jesus' presence on the moment of their death. Remember these?

 

"I'm happy to have anyone look at these verses - it's obvious that having passed from this life, believers are in paradise, God's presence."

" ...and we also see in the experience of Lazarus - that after physical death there is a conscious existence in Paradise, in the Lord's presence."

 

No soul-sleep. 'Beam me up, Gabriel!" Scripture disagrees with you Ray. I've cited the examples, now defend your position.[/color]

 

The discussion was re: soul sleep after death. Exactly Ray!

 

I've shown where Abraham, Isaac and many others, all the way to Paul and John - they all expected this soul-sleep of the dead. None of them expected to arrive on the heaven's transporter pad once they expired.

 

Which is bogus, proven from Scripture[/color]

 

 

Interesting string of thoughts, BAA! I've read the last couple of posts and found all but one of your example-argument combos compelling.

 

Ray - I'd love to see you reply to the actual scripture. Well, I'd love to see a reply to the scripture that addresses the context and intent of each scripture. I would not like to see a list of completely different scripture with no relation to BAA's scripture.

 

Do you think Abraham, Isaac, Paul, John, et. al. were wrong in their ideas about sleep after death? Were they confused?

 

Phanta

[bornagainathiest]

...and she repeated her request. So, please don't keep the lady waiting any longer. It's rude to do so.

Posted 07 December 2010 - 02:11 PM

bornagainathiest, on 03 December 2010 - 08:16 AM, said:

Joseph sold by His Brothers

29When Reuben returned to the pit and saw that Joseph was not in the pit, he(AA) tore his clothes 30and returned to his brothers and said, "The boy(AB) is gone, and I, where shall I go?" 31Then they took(AC) Joseph’s robe and slaughtered a goat and dipped the robe in the blood. 32And they sent the robe of many colors and brought it to their father and said, "This we have found; please identify whether it is your son’s robe or not." 33And he identified it and said, "It is my son’s robe.(AD) A fierce animal has devoured him. Joseph is without doubt torn to pieces." 34Then Jacob tore his garments and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days. 35All his sons and all his daughters(AE) rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, "No,(AF) I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning." Thus his father wept for him. 36Meanwhile(AG) the Midianites had sold him in Egypt to Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh,(AH) the captain of the guard.

 

 

I'm just thinking idly on this...(I am not in the right frame of mind for deep thought this week...too much fun going on!)...

 

Some claim that Shoel is, literally, the grave itself. Does that make sense here, if Joseph was eaten by animals? Jacob would not have his body to put into a grave.

 

Also, what does it mean to tear garments and put sackcloth on one's loins? I get that the tearing clothes thing is a big grief show, but what does it mean?

 

Ray, if you are around, what do you think is meant by references to Shoel? I'm interested in reading your view firsthand.

 

P

[bornagainathiest]

Now for some new stuff, Ray!

 

This time, it's a simple test of your belief that death is the immediate gateway to heaven or hell.

 

You reject the concept of soul-sleep and claim that all true Christian believers go immediately to Christ's presence when they die (like the beggar Lazarus) and all non-believers (like the rich man) go straight to hell.

So then, can you tell us where you think these people went, right after they died and before they were raised back to life?

 

 

1. The son of the widow of Zarephath died and was brought back to life by the Prophet Elijah. (See 1 Kings 17:17-24)

2. The daughter of Jairus died and was brought back to life by Jesus. (See Mark 5:21-43 and Luke 8:40-56)

3. The son of the widow of Nain died and was brought back to life by Jesus. (See Luke 7:11-15)

4. Lazarus, Martha's brother, died and was brought back to life by Jesus. (See John 11:1-43)

5. Eutychus of Troas died and was brought back to life by the Apostle Paul. (See Acts 20:7-12)

 

Who was beamed up to the glories of heaven, only to be beamed down again, after a few hours or a few days?

Who went to the excruciating agonies of hell, only to be plucked out of the flames, to resume their mortal lives?

 

Kinda strange that scripture says nothing at all about these people's spirit's temporarily visiting heaven or hell, huh? You'd think that they wouldn't be able to keep quiet about what they saw, felt and experienced in these places? But no, the Bible's totally silent on this. Hmmm.... odd that.

 

If soul-sleep is the answer here, that would make more sense, wouldn't it?

I've clearly shown that Sheol/Hades is the spiritual holding-place where the dead have no memories or activity of any kind. I reckon these folks departed their dead bodies and were temporarily ensconced in Sheol/Hades until recalled to life by God Himself, by His prophet Elijah or by by His Apostle Paul. See how it all fits?

 

Anyway, address the questions Ray - pronto!

You've got a LOT of catching up to do and if you do jump ship again, don't forget that all of this will be right here and waiting for you. That's one kind of dodge that won't work any more.

 

BAA.

[rayskidude]

Now for some new stuff, Ray!

 

This time, it's a simple test of your belief that death is the immediate gateway to heaven or hell.

 

You reject the concept of soul-sleep and claim that all true Christian believers go immediately to Christ's presence when they die (like the beggar Lazarus) and all non-believers (like the rich man) go straight to hell.

So then, can you tell us where you think these people went, right after they died and before they were raised back to life?

 

 

1. The son of the widow of Zarephath died and was brought back to life by the Prophet Elijah. (See 1 Kings 17:17-24)

2. The daughter of Jairus died and was brought back to life by Jesus. (See Mark 5:21-43 and Luke 8:40-56)

3. The son of the widow of Nain died and was brought back to life by Jesus. (See Luke 7:11-15)

4. Lazarus, Martha's brother, died and was brought back to life by Jesus. (See John 11:1-43)

5. Eutychus of Troas died and was brought back to life by the Apostle Paul. (See Acts 20:7-12)

 

Who was beamed up to the glories of heaven, only to be beamed down again, after a few hours or a few days?

Who went to the excruciating agonies of hell, only to be plucked out of the flames, to resume their mortal lives?

 

Kinda strange that scripture says nothing at all about these people's spirit's temporarily visiting heaven or hell, huh? You'd think that they wouldn't be able to keep quiet about what they saw, felt and experienced in these places? But no, the Bible's totally silent on this. Hmmm.... odd that.

 

If soul-sleep is the answer here, that would make more sense, wouldn't it?

I've clearly shown that Sheol/Hades is the spiritual holding-place where the dead have no memories or activity of any kind. I reckon these folks departed their dead bodies and were temporarily ensconced in Sheol/Hades until recalled to life by God Himself, by His prophet Elijah or by by His Apostle Paul. See how it all fits?

 

Anyway, address the questions Ray - pronto!

You've got a LOT of catching up to do and if you do jump ship again, don't forget that all of this will be right here and waiting for you. That's one kind of dodge that won't work any more.

 

BAA.

 

WOW - the Big M.A.C. has his very own stalker; I'm just so overwhelmed that my thoughts as to the Bible's teaching on this myriad of subjects is so coveted. I want to give a 'shout out' to my peeps; my parents, friends, comrades - all the little people who made the M.A.C. I am today - I couldn't of done it all by myself.

 

But wait - maybe it's a groupie thing?? WOW again - or better EeUuWWWW! that would be so weird and really unwanted.

 

But BAA, I'm honored at your thread - and your studied response so that you can help me to help you; please, help me to help you, help me to help you!

 

Give me your top priority Numero Uno Question - the one that's really got your panties in a bunch. I will be happy to respond.

 

OH yeah - you still don't have the gonads to list the recognized "Bible scholars" that hold to your twisted interpretations. Just thought I should remind you (but please correct me if I've mis-judged your gender).

[bdp]

and ray shows yet again what a wanker he is. you're a loser ray - give it up.

[Darklady]

and ray shows yet again what a wanker he is. you're a loser ray - give it up.

 

Sure is

[Phanta]

Well, my panties aren't in a bunch, Ray, and I can't speak for BAA, but I am interested in your answer to #8, particularly, what were Abraham, Isaac, Paul, and John's ideas, respectively, about what would happen to them immediately after death and through the return of messiah/rapture/end times (if they had a conception of such). I am curious about the personal perspective of each as presented in the Bible.

 

Thanks for considering my request.

 

Phanta

[bornagainathiest]

 

WOW - the Big M.A.C. has his very own stalker; I'm just so overwhelmed that my thoughts as to the Bible's teaching on this myriad of subjects is so coveted. I want to give a 'shout out' to my peeps; my parents, friends, comrades - all the little people who made the M.A.C. I am today - I couldn't of done it all by myself.

 

But wait - maybe it's a groupie thing?? WOW again - or better EeUuWWWW! that would be so weird and really unwanted.

 

But BAA, I'm honored at your thread - and your studied response so that you can help me to help you; please, help me to help you, help me to help you!

 

Give me your top priority Numero Uno Question - the one that's really got your panties in a bunch. I will be happy to respond.

 

OH yeah - you still don't have the gonads to list the recognized "Bible scholars" that hold to your twisted interpretations. Just thought I should remind you (but please correct me if I've mis-judged your gender).

 

Like I said before... rotten, rotten fruit. Corrupt to the core and stinking to high heaven!

 

Personal insults, sexual innuendos, childish sarcasm, arrogance and macho bs.

I don't see those listed as 'good spiritual fruit', anywhere in scripture.

 

Ummmm... aren't you the Christ-centered, bible-focused,'spiritual' and regenerated and born-again "True Christian Believer" here?

And I'm the sinful, unregenerated, hopelessly hell-bound sinner - who wants to protect those in his old church from a ravening wolf like you?

 

Yes.

Can you see from your the toxicity of your own written venom, why I don't want you anywhere near them?

 

You can talk the Christian talk, but when it comes to walking the walk... Ooops! What's that?

Oh yes. Just scratch Raysickdude's surface and look what's underneath that thin veneer of false piety - all the oh-so-Christian rancour and poison just pours out.

 

Now then, how about doing what the lady's politely asked - without equivocation, dissembling, evasion, obfuscation or any of your usual low tactics?

 

BAA.

[Mriana]

and ray shows yet again what a wanker he is. you're a loser ray - give it up.

 

I don't think he read all of that. I think he just read a little, took it all in, and started gloating with pride over it. Not just gloating with pride, but acting stupid too. Ray could just take each post and go step by step, even if it were to take him several days to answer all those posts by BAA. The fact he asked BAA what his most important question was and saying he would answer that one, shows that he isn't going to even respond to all that BAA said, if any of it.

[Vixentrox]

A christard is a christard is a christard.

[bornagainathiest]

and ray shows yet again what a wanker he is. you're a loser ray - give it up.

 

I don't think he read all of that. I think he just read a little, took it all in, and started gloating with pride over it. Not just gloating with pride, but acting stupid too. Ray could just take each post and go step by step, even if it were to take him several days to answer all those posts by BAA. The fact he asked BAA what his most important question was and saying he would answer that one, shows that he isn't going to even respond to all that BAA said, if any of it.

 

Hi Mriana!

 

You nailed it with the words, "...if any of it."

 

Look at this, notice the dates and see what Ray says.

 

Posted 29 May 2010 - 11:22 PM

bornagainathiest, on 26 April 2010 - 10:41 AM, said:

[Hold up a minute Ray! We need to slam on the brakes here and back up a bit. I WILL NOT be replying to any of your questions or talking about anything new, for two reasons.

First, you haven't answered the question I put to you, way back on January 26 - that's ten weeks ago. You asked for more time ("I will look at the data you offered - give me a few days. Thnx for your patience.") , but that was after your son's wedding and your problem with the error messages. With those events behind you now and with clear lines of communication between us, I see no reason why you can't make the answer to that question the next and sole topic of your next reply to me. Please do so.

Let's get one thing straight BAA - I am not beholden to your artificial timetable. And when did I ever say that the canyon on Mars was created by a flood? Re: the Grand Canyon - again, I never stated that it was formed by cavitation, but rather I simply said that cavitation makes so much more sense than uniformitarian models.

 

Why? Because we have seen the digging that cavitation can do in dam operations - and we can see the indirect evidence in the western scab-lands. However, we cannot see any evidence of uniformitarian modes of operation digging deeper into Earth's crust - even though we've seen huge rivers run for thousands of years.

 

He's wasn't beholden to my (so-called) artificial timetable then (eight months ago) , so why should we expect him to have changed?

 

But y'know, I think we've got it all wrong about him.

 

Perhaps he doesn't have to answer any of our questions?

Perhaps the usual standards of debate in forums like this one, just don't apply to him?

Perhaps Ex-Chr.net was created just for his benefit?

It's his own public platform where he can sound off on any subject he pleases, secure in the knowledge that he's not beholden to anyone or anything.

He can't be called to account for anything he writes. He can't be challenged about anything he quotes. He can't be criticized about anything he criticizes. He can't be questioned about anything questions. He's above all of that nonsense.

 

Maybe, you and I and everyone else here had better wise up and start treating the way he expects - like the one, true, infallible, inerrant spokesman for God on this Earth.

 

 

 

BAA.

[Phanta]

A thoughtful, well-crafted reply takes time.

[bornagainathiest]

Very gracious of you, Phanta.

 

I just hope he does so before the 26th, our 1st anniversary.

 

BAA.

[Phanta]

I just hope he does so before the 26th, our 1st anniversary.

 

*laugh* Marking the occasion in any special way?

 

Phanta

[Mriana]

You nailed it with the words, "...if any of it."

 

Thank you.

 

Perhaps he doesn't have to answer any of our questions?

Perhaps the usual standards of debate in forums like this one, just don't apply to him?

Perhaps Ex-Chr.net was created just for his benefit?

It's his own public platform where he can sound off on any subject he pleases, secure in the knowledge that he's not beholden to anyone or anything.

He can't be called to account for anything he writes. He can't be challenged about anything he quotes. He can't be criticized about anything he criticizes. He can't be questioned about anything questions. He's above all of that nonsense.

 

Maybe, you and I and everyone else here had better wise up and start treating the way he expects - like the one, true, infallible, inerrant spokesman for God on this Earth.

 

 

 

BAA.

 

Or perhaps he's too lazy to read and to give a coherent response.

 

 

A thoughtful, well-crafted reply takes time.

 

I think Gene Roddenberry could have written Star Trek episode on the topic and aired it, much like the episode "Justice" with their sky-god by now... If he were still alive. Of course, you know, his response would be a secular humanistic response.

 

 

Very gracious of you, Phanta.

 

I just hope he does so before the 26th, our 1st anniversary.

 

BAA.

 

That would be a "miracle".

[Ouroboros]

For a religious person, a full rational or logical justification is not necessary because their explanation is already founded in magic. With magic, reason is really superfluous and only used when convenient.

[Mriana]

For a religious person, a full rational or logical justification is not necessary because their explanation is already founded in magic. With magic, reason is really superfluous and only used when convenient.

 

Or found in Wonderland, while having tea with the Queen of Hearts and the Mad Hatter.

[Leinad89]

Whoa, you guys..