All The Questions Dodged By Rayskidude.

[Phanta]

I also need to study this more, and I'll get back to you next week

 

Great. That will give me some time to do my own reading.

 

Thanks again for the replies.

 

Phanta

[bornagainathiest]

King David - Asleep in Hades or in Heaven Now?

 

So what did the Apostle Peter say about it?

Acts Chapter 2, verses 22 to 36. English Standard Version.

 

22"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth,(Y) a man attested to you by God(Z) with(AA) mighty works and wonders and signs that(AB) God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23this Jesus,(AC) delivered up according to(AD) the definite plan and(AE) foreknowledge of God,(AF) you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24(AG) God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because(AH) it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25For David says concerning him,

(AI) "'I saw the Lord always before me,

for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;

26therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;

 

my flesh also will dwell(AJ) in hope.

27For you will not abandon my soul to(AK) Hades,

(AL) or let your(AM) Holy One(AN) see corruption.

28You have made known to me the paths of life;

you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'

29"Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about(AO) the patriarch David(AP) that he both died and(AQ) was buried, and(AR) his tomb is with us to this day.

 

30(AS) Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that(AT) God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that(AU) he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus(AV) God raised up,(AW) and of that we all are witnesses. 33(AX) Being therefore(AY) exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from(AZ) the Father(BA) the promise of the Holy Spirit,(BB) he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

34For(BC) David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

(BD) "'The Lord said to my Lord,Sit at my right hand,

35until I make your enemies your footstool.'

36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that(BE) God has made him(BF) both Lord and Christ, this Jesus(BG) whom you crucified."

 

And why should we listen to Peter?

 

Matthew chapter 16, verses 13 to 18. English Standard Version.

Peter Declares That Jesus Is the Messiah

 

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it.

19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.”

20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

 

So, if Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, who kept the keys to Hades?

 

Revelation, chapter 1, verses 9 to 18. English Standard Version.

John’s Vision of Christ

 

9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Scripture kinda screams it out loud and clear! But, for those who are hard of hearing...

 

David died and was buried and his tomb was there when Peter spoke...

 

His flesh dwells in hope...

 

His soul will not be abandoned to Hades... (not Hell!)

 

David did not ascend into the heavens.

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Ok, now it's time to look at what Job really believed.

 

To start off, let me clarify the dispute between Ray and myself concerning what happens to Christians, immediately after they die.

Ray's position is that all Christians, Job included, go to heaven. He says that they do so in the form of disembodied spirits and only when Judgement Day arrives are their 'ghostly' spirits clothed in new physical bodies, to join God in the new heaven - the old Earth and the old heaven, having been swept away.

 

I, on the other hand, contend that the Bible clearly shows that all Christians undergo soul-sleep when they die and do not see God until Judgement Day, when they rise from their graves, clothed in new flesh and THEN see Him in the new heaven.

The dispute between is over WHEN Christians first see God - as disembodied spirits, right after when they die or as fully resurrected people in God's new heaven.

 

Job was a contemporary of the Patriarchs, and Job believed that he would have a physical body and would see God in the after-life >> and he was overwhelmed by the glory of that truth.

 

25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,

and at the last he will stand upon the earth.

26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed,

yet in my flesh I shall see God,

27 whom I shall see for myself,

and my eyes shall behold, and not another.

My heart faints within me!

 

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Job 19:25–27). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Yes, Job believed that he would have a physical body and that he would see God in the after-life. But let's hit the pause button, right there!

 

Ray's not telling it straight here.

He believes that first, Job would die, go up to heaven and see God... as a spirit, not as a physical person with real flesh. So, Job's after-life begins at death, according to him. Then, when Judgement Day arrives, Job would receive his new flesh and see God thru his new eyes. To Ray, it's a two-stage process, but he's not presenting it that way by saying, "...Job believed that he would have a physical body and that he would see God in the after-life..." He's reversed the order of events (Job sees God, first using his 'spirit' eyes, then thru his physical eyes) and he didn't make it clear WHEN Job's after-life began, at death or at the resurrection.

 

Ray also contends that there is a gradual revelation of God's plan thru the pages of scripture and that early Christian's like Job did not have the full understanding we now enjoy, now that the Bible is complete and we know God's full truth.

 

I will now dismantle that notion and demonstrate that Job had a very good idea of what God's plan was. I will also show that Job knew that all the dead (Christian and non-Christian) would sleep until fully resurrected in new flesh on Judgement Day.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, where does Job believe he is going when he dies?

 

Job 14:12-14, ESV.

12so a man lies down and rises not again;

till® the heavens are no more he will not awake

or be(S) roused out of his sleep.

13Oh that you would(T) hide me in(U) Sheol,

that you would(V) conceal me until your wrath be past,

that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

14If a man dies, shall he live again?

All the days of my(W) service I would(X) wait,

till my renewal should come.

 

Job expects to go down to Sheol... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol ...the abode of the dead spirits and to sleep there. Once there he will not return to mortal life and he will not wake or be roused until the heavens are no more, waiting until his renewal comes.

 

This is the sequence of events described...

1. Once Job dies, he goes to Sheol, not heaven. He does not see God when he dies.

2. In Sheol he sleeps and does not return to mortal life on this Earth.

3. His sleep ends when the heavens are no more and his renewal comes.

4. Then, he sees God, as Ray's quote describes...

'At the last [day], after his skin has been destroyed [in the grave], in my [new] flesh shall I see God.'

 

This is when the heavens are no more...

 

Revelation 20:11 & 12, ESV.

Judgment Before the Great White Throne

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence(AC) earth and sky fled away, and(AD) no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and(AE) books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is(AF) the book of life. And(AG) the dead were judged by what was written in the books,(AH) according to what they had done.

 

This is when Job's renewal comes...

 

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, ESV.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]

 

So, Job understood God's plan very well indeed.

He knew that once he died, he wouldn't see God as a disembodied spirit in heaven. No. He knew that he had to wait and sleep until the renewal of his flesh, the passing of the old heaven and earth and the arrival the new heaven and earth.

 

Revelation 21:1-4, ESV.

A New Heaven and a New Earth

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In my previous posting, I showed that the Apostle Peter agreed with what Job knew to be true - that the Christian dead have not entered heaven yet. Peter confidently said that the Prophet and Patriarch, David, the former King of Israel did not ascend into the heavens. Like Job and Abraham and everyone else, David must wait until the Last Day to see his God in the flesh.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[pratt]

just a question. who were with jesus at mount of transfiguration? did moses and elijah rise from the dead somewhere or just a anormaly?

[bornagainathiest]

just a question. who were with jesus at mount of transfiguration? did moses and elijah rise from the dead somewhere or just a anormaly?

 

Hi Pratt!

 

Good question!

 

Elijah didn't die. He was taken up to heaven alive in a fiery chariot. See 2 Kings 2 : 11 & 12.

 

See Deuteronomy 34: 1-8, concerning the death of Moses and take note of verse 6. Nobody knows exactly where Moses was buried. Somewhere in the valley opposite Beth Peor, in Moab. But the secrecy of his burial place was no accident.

 

Now read Jude 1:9.

Possession of Moses' body was disputed by Satan and the archangel Michael. Why?

Why would Satan be interested in the body of a dead prophet? The answer is that Satan knew that God had a special purpose assigned for Moses' body. So, if he could prevent it being taken up to heaven, he could thwart God's plan. Naturally he failed.

 

Part of this plan, was the Transfiguration. One of the reasons Moses joined Jesus and Elijah on the mountain was to show the onlooking disciples what they would look like when they are resurrected in glory on the last day. No physical body = no physical resurrection. If Moses' body were still in the ground he couldn't have physically appeared with Elijah and Jesus. Simple really.

 

This helps to explain why the full physical resurrection of Christian believers exactly follows the pattern established by Jesus.

 

Christ did not go up to heaven as a ghostly spirit when he died on the cross. He only entered heaven after his mortal remains were brought back to life in the tomb.

 

So it will be with the Christian dead. On the Last Day, the sleep of King David, of Job and of other believers will come to an end. Their bodies will be transfigured (changed according to the Apostle Paul or renewed according to the patriarch Job) and they will come out of their graves to stand before God's throne of judgement. They will share the same kind of imperishable flesh as Jesus and will enter into the holy city of the New Jerusalem.

 

So, it's not an anomaly, it's all part of God's plan. Does that help?

 

BAA.

 

 

[pratt]

so moses is a anaormaly,,,, special treatment then,,,,,,,,,,,

 

god make up new laws along the way with exception. like nepotism in singapore's politics,,,,, ok

[Phanta]

Lol, Ouroboros, and Phanta. Yeah this isn't derailing the topic at aaaaall:P

 

RAY! I WRITE THIS IN COMIC SANS IN AN ATTEMPT TO GET YOUR ATTENTION! IF YOU WANT, THIS TOPIC CAN BE MOVED TO THE COLOSSEUM, YOU KNOW!

 

You might be interested to see that I posted a discussion question for followers of the Bible in the Colosseum several days ago, and none have shown interest.

 

Why the lack of interest in civil conversation?

 

Perhaps water seeks its own level.

 

Phanta

[bornagainathiest]

so moses is a anaormaly,,,, special treatment then,,,,,,,,,,,

 

god make up new laws along the way with exception. like nepotism in singapore's politics,,,,, ok

 

Well, that's one way of looking at it, Pratt.

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Hmmm... let's see.

 

Ray says... "All true Christian believers go directly to heaven when they die."

 

So far, I've shown from scripture that King David did not enter heaven, either when he died or at any time up to the events recorded in the early chapters of the book of Acts.

 

I've also presented the encounter between King Saul and the spirit of Samuel, which demonstrates that the prophet did not go up to heaven when he died - but was 'disturbed' from his sleep in Sheol by the witch of Endor.

 

In addition, I've listed and quoted the scripture that tells us what King Solomon, the patriarch Job and the Apostles John and Paul thought about the 'sleep' of the dead in Sheol/Hades. Nowhere do we see them say that Christians see God once they die.

 

The prophet Daniel was given a vision of the Time of the End by God and he faithfully recorded it. What do we see? More and clearer confirmation that the soul-sleep of the dead comes to an end on Judgement Day - not before.

 

The six examples listed below are of people who died and were brought back to life. According to Ray, the 'spirit' of the son of the widow of Nain was beamed up to heaven and then beamed down again, with Jesus standing in for Mr. Scott and operating the transporter controls. "Energize!"

 

WAITAMINUTE!!!

Didn't Jesus say,"I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except thru me."? Yes, he did. In John 14:6. So then, all six resurrectees MUST have been true born-again Christians to go to the Father in heaven. But where's the scriptural evidence that says these half-dozen were Christians? I don't see any!

 

1. The son of the widow of Zarephath died and was brought back to life by the Prophet Elijah. (See 1 Kings 17:17-24)

2. The Shunnamite woman's son died and was brought back to life by the prophet Elisha. (See 2 Kings 4:8-36)

3. The daughter of Jairus died and was brought back to life by Jesus. (See Mark 5:21-43 and Luke 8:40-56)

4. The son of the widow of Nain died and was brought back to life by Jesus. (See Luke 7:11-15)

5. Lazarus, Martha's brother, died and was brought back to life by Jesus. (See John 11:1-43)

6. Eutychus of Troas died and was brought back to life by the Apostle Paul. (See Acts 20:7-12)

 

Well, today here's some more quotes about who has seen God. Check out the emboldened parts!

 

 

1 Timothy 6:13-16, ESV.

 

13(AC) I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus,(AD) who in his testimony before[d] Pontius Pilate made(AE) the good confession, 14to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until(AF) the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which he will display(AG) at the proper time—he who is(AH) the blessed and only Sovereign,(AI) the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16(AJ) who alone has immortality,(AK) who dwells in(AL) unapproachable light,(AM) whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

 

 

 

John 1:14-18, ESV.

 

14And(Z) the Word(AA) became flesh and(AB) dwelt among us,(AC) and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of(AD) grace and(AE) truth. 15((AF) John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said,(AG) 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'") 16And from(AH) his fullness we have all received,(AI) grace upon grace. 17For(AJ) the law was given through Moses;(AK) grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18(AL) No one has ever seen God;(AM) the only God,[d] who is at the Father’s side,[e](AN) he has made him known.

 

 

 

John 6:44-46, ESV.

 

44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me(BH) draws him. And(BI) I will raise him up on the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets,(BJ) 'And they will all be(BK) taught by God.'(BL) Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46(BM) not that anyone has seen the Father except(BN) he who is from God; he(BO) has seen the Father.

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

p.s.

Coming soon...

...what the patriarch Abraham expected, concerning the after-life.

[rayskidude]

David did not ascend into the heavens.

BAA.

 

It is well known that Psalm 16 has Messianic application, but that does not negate fulfillment for the author. There are several examples of prophetic statements with 'near & far' fulfillment >> Isaiah 7:14 is an example. David fully expected to physically see God.

 

In addition, Peter was obviously referring to the physical resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ after His crucifixion, events which prove His Deity and His Messianic ministry.

 

set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord

 

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Romans 1:1–4). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

These are obviously phenomena which David did not experience, because after his death David's soul separated from his body and is now at home with the Lord.

 

26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (James 2:26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Chap 5 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (2 Corinthians 5:1–8). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

So as Paul seeks to be out of this sinful body and at home with the Lord, note he does not see being naked or unclothed (without a body) as the best or final state. Humans are body & soul, material & immaterial. But he seeks to be out of this body and knows God will one day give him a heavenly body.

 

Chap 1:20 as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

 

20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Philippians 1:20-23 & 3:20–21). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Paul personally prefers physical death to this worldly life in the flesh. So he can sleep? And he regards this as far better? Really? 'Cuz he says he will be at home with the Lord. Are you saying Paul will be home sleeping?

 

Also note what Jesus said to the thief on the cross;

 

42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Luke 23:42–43). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

So, you maintain that Paradise is sleeping in Hades along with Jesus? Is Jesus also sleeping? How is this Paradise?

[Leinad89]

just a question. who were with jesus at mount of transfiguration? did moses and elijah rise from the dead somewhere or just a anormaly?

I wanna know how they indentified them as Moses and Elijah

Maybe Jesus told them, afterwards?

[bdp]

So, you maintain that Paradise is sleeping in Hades along with Jesus? Is Jesus also sleeping? How is this Paradise?

 

It's all fiction. Who gives a fuck?

[bornagainathiest]

David did not ascend into the heavens.

BAA.

 

It is well known that Psalm 16 has Messianic application, but that does not negate fulfillment for the author. There are several examples of prophetic statements with 'near & far' fulfillment >> Isaiah 7:14 is an example. David fully expected to physically see God.

 

When? Quote the chapter and verse where David says he expects to physically see God, right after he dies and before Judgement Day.

 

In addition, Peter was obviously referring to the physical resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ after His crucifixion, events which prove His Deity and His Messianic ministry.

 

Not in dispute. Only Christ has entered heaven. Your words back me up.

 

set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord

 

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Romans 1:1–4). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

These are obviously phenomena which David did not experience, because after his death David's soul separated from his body and is now at home with the Lord.

 

Wrong! Show me the chapter and verse where it says David is in heaven now, before Judgement Day.

 

26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (James 2:26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Yes! The body (in the grave) is dead when parted from the spirit (in Sheol/Hades), which is the thrust of my argument. Quite what faith and works have to do with it, I don't know!? Is there any unavoidable reason why the human spirit must go to heaven or hell upon death? Please say why, citing your Biblical references.

 

Chap 5 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (2 Corinthians 5:1–8). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

So as Paul seeks to be out of this sinful body and at home with the Lord, note he does not see being naked or unclothed (without a body) as the best or final state.

 

Q. The Spirit is a guarantee of what?

A. Salvation.

Q. And when is this guarantee to be made good?

A. When it counts - on Judgement Day. There's no need of it before then.

 

Also, did I say that being without a body was the best or final state? No! The full physical resurrection at the end of days is the best and final state. Not some ghostly spirit-form, waiting in heaven to be reunited with the new flesh. Where-o-where in the whole Bible does it say anything at all about immaterial spirits waiting in heaven for Judgement Day?

 

Ray, any quote you can find will be about true believers being there in their fully resurrected physical flesh, either on Judgement Day or after.

Prove me wrong.

 

Humans are body & soul, material & immaterial. But he seeks to be out of this body and knows God will one day give him a heavenly body.

 

Yes. On Judgement day, not before. Show me where it says before then? (No! Lazarus and the thief are metaphors!)

 

Chap 1:20 as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

 

In the New heaven and the New Jerusalem, not before. Where does it ever say, before then?

 

20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Philippians 1:20-23 & 3:20–21). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Paul personally prefers physical death to this worldly life in the flesh. So he can sleep? And he regards this as far better? Really? 'Cuz he says he will be at home with the Lord. Are you saying Paul will be home sleeping?

 

No. Paul knew better than that. He knew that he would die and then wake (after sleeping and knowing nothing) when the Last trumpet sounds and the graves are opened. The intervening time means nothing to him, because the Spirit guarantees his salvation. Remember? There is no elapsed time for him in Sheol/Hades. He leaves his earthly life and wakens to go home with Christ, at the appointed time... Judgement Day.

 

Also note what Jesus said to the thief on the cross;

 

42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Luke 23:42–43). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

So, you maintain that Paradise is sleeping in Hades along with Jesus? Is Jesus also sleeping? How is this Paradise?

 

No Ray.

 

No, I don't maintain that Paradise is sleeping in Hades along with Jesus.

 

I've never said that Paradise is sleeping.

I've never said that Jesus is there.

I've never said that Sheol/Hades is Paradise.

 

Once again you've twisted my words (we can see how you did it before from what I've quoted below), so I'll repeat the point.

Soul-sleep has nothing at all to do with Paradise. You are the one fixated on the idea that the thief would be joining Jesus in Paradise this day, not me. You are the one who regards this as an absolute truth, I don't. You are the one who doesn't accept that Jesus is speaking metaphorically, I do. Capiche?

 

I take your two favorite examples (Lazarus and the Rich Man and the thief on the cross) as metaphors. Catch?

I take the different situations that Lazarus and the Rich man find themselves in after they die as parables.

It's quite wrong to take a parable as reality, wouldn't you agree?

 

So then, how can I possibly be saying that Paradise is sleeping or that Jesus is there or that Sheol/Hades is Paradise, when I take the content of these quotes as metaphors? Hmmmm...?

 

What I have said (and which you well know, but have decided to ignore or which you've forgotten) is this...

 

On Nov 19, 2010 BAA replied to Rayskidude.

40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Luke 23:40–43). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

(My words appear in blue, as usual.)

Here we see Jesus comforting the dying man by telling him about what he will experience. From the criminals p.o.v., he would be with Jesus the instant he died.

So, even though Jesus was hanging in agony on his cross, he still had compassion on a man he'd never met before. This man would have been in acute pain and torment too. What better way was there to ease the man's mind and give him hope? Hope of immediate deliverance from his current agony and deliverance from any fears the thief might have had about his sinful life - fears about eternal suffering and similar.

 

Did Jesus have the time and opportunity to patiently explain to the man that he would actually have to sleep until the Jesus returned? Perhaps for many millennia? Would the pain-stricken thief have understood? Wouldn't he desperately want deliverance from his agony as soon as possible? Yes, indeed! And Jesus promised this to him. Not in relentlessly literal detail, but in the best way that man could ask for - in terms of immediate comfort and peace on that day.

 

According to Ray, ON THAT DAY has to literally mean on that Tuesday or Saturday or whenever the crucifixion took place. There can be no other interpretation. Jesus cannot use a metaphor in this case. It's impossible! Never mind that it contradicts scripture.

 

So lemme get this straight - in BAA's paradise, we're just sleeping in 'timeless time.' Gee, this is so appealing - no wonder so many want to go to heaven.

 

Wrong again. Deliberately so. I did not say that paradise is a timeless time. The sleep of death, prior to the Second coming of Jesus is. Twisting my words to make a point is such a cheap and mean-spirited tactic Ray. Typical of you tho'.

 

The leopard never changes his spots! That's twice you've tried that trick and twice you've failed.

 

Stop twisting my words Ray. If you don't understand something, I'll explain it to you. But please, please, please don't mess around with what I've said to score cheap points.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now, lookee here!

 

Another Christian apologist's just joined this forum and look what he says about Lazarus and the Rich Man.

Non-literal!

So... it must be a metaphor or parable, then?

 

Don't worry, don't worry, I'm here to help. agnosticator gave a pretty accurate description for us to begin with.

 

Please forgive the length of my post, if it's longer than is common here; I'm new to the forum.

 

 

In the Old Testament, the afterlife is spoken of as sheol; it's literal meaning is something like "shade", but it was used to refer to "the grave". The Greek OT (Septuagint) chose to use hades as the equivalent for sheol. When we get to the New Testament (written roughly 200-250 years after the Septuagint), most of the times that we see the word "hell", the Greek word used is hades. So when we see hades in the NT, the writers were thinking of sheol of the OT. When people die, they "go to" sheol, and their existence is described in the OT as thus: unknowing, undoing, unthinking, unaware, asleep, forgotten, chaff blown away in the wind, clay pots smashed to pieces, memories forgotten, smoke vanishing into the air, snails dissolving into slime, wax melting before a fire, a dream passing when one awakens. In other words, death, in the OT and NT mindset, is the end.

 

This is also the majority view found in the Inter-Testamental writings, and about a fourth of the Post-Testamental writings, with but a few pieces of literature of these eras incorporating the idea of neverending punishment... but these were achieved by taking OT nation-judgment texts and fusing them with the Hellenistic views that were now permeating the Levant. And yes, there are a couple of times in the OT and NT where we are shown people talking or doing things in sheol/hades/the grave, but these few examples are always found in non-literal contexts (e.g. the dirge of Isaiah 14; the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16), for the sake of making a point (Isaiah 14: that the king of Babylon would die just like everyone else; Luke 16: a criticism of the Pharisees for not following the humanitarian commands of the Law and Prophets).

 

On the other hand, many of the instances where we find the word "hell" in the NT come from the Greek word gehenna. This comes from the Hebrew ge-hinnom, which means Valley of Hinnom. The Valley of Hinnom is a location to the south-east of Jerusalem, and it is found in the OT timeline as far back as the book of Joshua. In its various mentionings, the Valley of Hinnom is associated with the sacrificing of men's sons (perhaps a clue on why it was originally called the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom), and so the land was repudiated by the Israelites. As a result, the Valley of Hinnom eventually became a garbage dump, perpetually on fire, destroying all that was thrown into it, including the city's trash, dead animals, and the bodies of criminals. By the time of Jesus, this trash heap had been around for centuries, and had been burning the entire time. It came to be a symbol (not just in the NT) of judgment, but it never carried the connotation of Everlasting Conscious Torment. The connotation it carried was that of permanent, irrevocable destruction, that when something was cast into the Valley of Hinnom, into gehenna, that thing was burned away, consumed by the flames, and left only as ashes.

 

There are a few adjectives used by Jesus that some might react and say, "But hey, he called it 'unquenchable' and 'everlasting'." Yes. In the Old Testament, specifically in the prophetic books (Isaiah-Malachi), God's judgment was viewed in terms of "fire", and that when his "fire" (judgment) was poured out on a nation, it would be "unquenchable" and unending, burning "day and night", with the "smoke ascending forever". So for example, when Isaiah 34 predicts God's judgment upon the nation of Edom, it is described as "her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever." Isaiah's predicting a national judgment upon Edom, using a high amount of metaphor (mountains flowing with blood, the stars falling to the earth, God wielding a cosmic sword, etc.). The fire is metaphor, the smoke is metaphor, the burning pitch is metaphor. The meaning of this "unquenchable fire" is that its perpetual, that God would continue to pour out his judgment until it was complete, and that nothing could stop it (quench it) prematurely.

 

So when Jesus calls the gehenna fire "unquenchable" and "everlasting", I believe this is his meaning - he's using the same metaphors as his established prophets - that a judgment from God was coming upon the nation, and that once it had started, it could not be stopped (i.e. it was unquenchable, it was everlasting, it was perpetual) until it was complete. It would be tantamount to being thrown into the Valley of Hinnom, caught in the fire that would consume everything and burn perpetually until it was gone. Jesus also adds in other OT imagery, such as how God can "destroy both body and soul". The "lake of fire" of the Revelation is described as equivalent to gehenna, and the author uses the same high-metaphor language as Isaiah and those other OT prophets.

 

As a Christian, this is what I believe Jesus meant when he referred to hades (the grave) and gehenna (the Valley of Hinnom). I also believe that this line of thought is consistently held throughout the NT, but that most people don't recognize it for what it is, because most people (i.e. most Christians) don't know their OT inside and out and don't recognize the high-metaphors, and because we're living in a time centuries after Greek and Roman thought (and the idea of an immortal soul) had dominated everyone's thinking.

 

(Tartarus, another word translated as "hell", is described as being a prison for fallen angels, where they are "kept until the judgment". It is unrelated to hades and gehenna.)

 

Howaboutthat!

 

BAA.

[Leinad89]

So, you maintain that Paradise is sleeping in Hades along with Jesus? Is Jesus also sleeping? How is this Paradise?

 

It's all fiction. Who gives a fuck?

 

Ray and many soon-to-be-ex-christians who are lurking might give a fuck.

It's about challenging opinions of others to discover truth. Some people need to go down to the nitty gritty to be assured of their belief/non-belief.

[rayskidude]

Chap 5 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (2 Corinthians 5:1–8). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

So as Paul seeks to be out of this sinful body and at home with the Lord, note he does not see being naked or unclothed (without a body) as the best or final state.

 

Q. The Spirit is a guarantee of what?

A. Salvation.

Q. And when is this guarantee to be made good?

A. When it counts - on Judgement Day. There's no need of it before then.

 

Who says there no need of salvation prior to Judgment Day? You?

 

On Earth, our souls are redeemed - and as Paul says in Romans 8; we await the redemption of our bodies.

 

Humans are body & soul, material & immaterial. But he seeks to be out of this body and knows God will one day give him a heavenly body.

Chap 1:20 as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

 

In the New heaven and the New Jerusalem, not before. Where does it ever say, before then?

 

Again, says who? 'Cuz Paul is very specific that to be away from the body and not in this flesh is to be at home with the Lord and to be with Christ. These are simple direct statements that you want to conduct some kinda 'work around' so as not to admit the obvious truth being taught.

 

20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Philippians 1:20-23 & 3:20–21). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Paul personally prefers physical death to this worldly life in the flesh. So he can sleep? And he regards this as far better? Really? 'Cuz he says he will be at home with the Lord. Are you saying Paul will be home sleeping?

 

No. Paul knew better than that. He knew that he would die and then wake (after sleeping and knowing nothing) when the Last trumpet sounds and the graves are opened. The intervening time means nothing to him, because the Spirit guarantees his salvation. Remember? There is no elapsed time for him in Sheol/Hades. He leaves his earthly life and wakens to go home with Christ, at the appointed time... Judgement Day.

 

There is no elapsed time for him in Sheol/Hades? Care to quote chapter and verse?

 

Also note what Jesus said to the thief on the cross;

42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Luke 23:42–43). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

So, you maintain that Paradise is sleeping in Hades along with Jesus? Is Jesus also sleeping? How is this Paradise?

 

Soul-sleep has nothing at all to do with Paradise. You are the one fixated on the idea that the thief would be joining Jesus in Paradise this day, not me. You are the one who regards this as an absolute truth, I don't. You are the one who doesn't accept that Jesus is speaking metaphorically, I do. Capiche?

 

So, in the midst of literal deaths, when Jesus said; "I thirst" they understood He wasn't uttering a metaphor and they brought him a sponge dipped in sour wine; and when He said; "It is finished." that was just a metaphor? For WHAT? When Jesus said; "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." - was that metaphor? When Jesus cried out: "My God, My God - why have You forsaken Me?" Wasn't that a literal fulfillment of prophecy? As was the men casting lots for His garments was also a literal fulfillment of prophecy?

 

So in the midst of all this literalness - you wanna inject a meaningless metaphor? And you want me to take this seriously? There is nothing in the context to suggest Jesus was using metaphor for 'today' or 'Paradise.' As I have said before, you have a very faulty hermeneutic.

 

40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Luke 23:40–43). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Did Jesus have the time and opportunity to patiently explain to the man that he would actually have to sleep until the Jesus returned? Perhaps for many millennia? Would the pain-stricken thief have understood? Wouldn't he desperately want deliverance from his agony as soon as possible? Yes, indeed! And Jesus promised this to him. Not in relentlessly literal detail, but in the best way that man could ask for - in terms of immediate comfort and peace on that day.

 

Oh - so there is no real Paradise. I get it.

 

The Final Judgment

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 25:31–26:1). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Do me a favor - point out all the metaphors in this passage. Hungry, thirsty, stranger, naked, sick, King, kingdom, right, left, glory, angels, eternal, fire, devil, punishment, righteous, eternal life? Which ones?

[Phanta]

Humans are body & soul, material & immaterial. But he seeks to be out of this body and knows God will one day give him a heavenly body.

Chap 1:20 as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

 

In the New heaven and the New Jerusalem, not before. Where does it ever say, before then?

 

Again, says who? 'Cuz Paul is very specific that to be away from the body and not in this flesh is to be at home with the Lord and to be with Christ. These are simple direct statements that you want to conduct some kinda 'work around' so as not to admit the obvious truth being taught.

 

20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Philippians 1:20-23 & 3:20–21). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Well, that's a good one, BAA. We wait in heaven until the time that we receive our transformed bodies. What do you make of that?

 

No. Paul knew better than that. He knew that he would die and then wake (after sleeping and knowing nothing) when the Last trumpet sounds and the graves are opened. The intervening time means nothing to him, because the Spirit guarantees his salvation. Remember? There is no elapsed time for him in Sheol/Hades. He leaves his earthly life and wakens to go home with Christ, at the appointed time... Judgement Day.[/color]

 

There is no elapsed time for him in Sheol/Hades? Care to quote chapter and verse?

 

What BAA has been saying is that the dead experience no time lapse in Shoel, just as those who are asleep do not experience the passage of time. In reality, thousands of years are actually passing while those Bible folks were in Shoel, but they were not conscious of the passage of time. Therefore, for the thief on the cross, he would be unconscious for thousands of years, and in that unconsciousness, his experience would be that he would die and immediately be in heaven, because his sleep-years are unconscious.

 

BAA quoted some verses referencing sleep-time here and here and here.

 

Also note what Jesus said to the thief on the cross;

42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Luke 23:42–43). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

So, you maintain that Paradise is sleeping in Hades along with Jesus? Is Jesus also sleeping? How is this Paradise?

 

Soul-sleep has nothing at all to do with Paradise. You are the one fixated on the idea that the thief would be joining Jesus in Paradise this day, not me. You are the one who regards this as an absolute truth, I don't. You are the one who doesn't accept that Jesus is speaking metaphorically, I do. Capiche?

 

So, in the midst of literal deaths, when Jesus said; "I thirst" they understood He wasn't uttering a metaphor and they brought him a sponge dipped in sour wine; and when He said; "It is finished." that was just a metaphor? For WHAT? When Jesus said; "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." - was that metaphor? When Jesus cried out: "My God, My God - why have You forsaken Me?" Wasn't that a literal fulfillment of prophecy? As was the men casting lots for His garments was also a literal fulfillment of prophecy?

 

So in the midst of all this literalness - you wanna inject a meaningless metaphor? And you want me to take this seriously? There is nothing in the context to suggest Jesus was using metaphor for 'today' or 'Paradise.' As I have said before, you have a very faulty hermeneutic.

 

40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Luke 23:40–43). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Did Jesus have the time and opportunity to patiently explain to the man that he would actually have to sleep until the Jesus returned? Perhaps for many millennia? Would the pain-stricken thief have understood? Wouldn't he desperately want deliverance from his agony as soon as possible? Yes, indeed! And Jesus promised this to him. Not in relentlessly literal detail, but in the best way that man could ask for - in terms of immediate comfort and peace on that day.

 

Oh - so there is no real Paradise. I get it.

 

Metaphor isn't the correct word. Jesus was simply describing what the thief would experience, functionally, from the thief's perspective, as he would be unaware during the pre-Judgement sleep-time.

 

Phanta

[bornagainathiest]

Well, that's a good one, BAA. We wait in heaven until the time that we receive our transformed bodies. What do you make of that?

 

Hi Phanta!

 

What do I make of it?

 

Well, it's impossible.

 

Ray's view creates a glaring and unresolvable contradiction in scripture. (Not bad, for a Bible Inerrantist!)

Anyway, here's how...

 

Paul writes that he wants to depart and be with Christ. If he means on the day he dies, then he must share Ray's position - that the saved join Christ immediately when they die. But, elsewhere Paul also writes the God, 'dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see.'

Now, Paul will have known about the Christian martyr Stephen, who 'fell asleep' before Saul's conversion to Paul on the road to Damascus. If Paul agrees with Ray, then he will have concluded that Stephen did enter that unapproachable and saw God when he was stoned to death.

So why then does Paul write to Timothy that, no one has ever seen God or can see him?

 

Another important point to remember here is that John agrees with Paul and both men are writing years and decades after the day the crucified thief died. John was present at the crucifixion. He would have known what Jesus said to the thief, even if he didn't record it in his gospel. So, if John had taken Jesus' words as literally meaning THIS DAY, then why did he write (twice) that no one has seen God except Jesus?

 

Also, let's not forget what Peter said. That King David did not enter heaven - and this was hundreds of years after David died. But according to Ray, David should have gone there on the day of his death.

 

So Ray's disagreeing with three New Testament Apostles and all of the Old Testament Prophets I've quoted.

Now, if he wants to maintain that the Bible is the perfect and inerrant word of God then he's got to resolve this paradox without adding to or taking away from scripture or perverting the meaning of any of it.

 

Ray's put forward the idea that the immaterial spirits of true believers go up to heaven and wait there for their new, transformed bodies. So far, he hasn't quoted the scripture that describes this or given us much information as to how this happens.

 

Sorry Phanta, but I just don't know how he can make this work!

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Who says there no need of salvation prior to Judgment Day? You?

 

Ray, what you mean by, 'prior to judgement day' is quite different to what I mean by, 'prior to Judgement Day'.

 

I'm talking about the period after a person dies and before they are raised on Judgement Day. This is soul-sleep.

You say that true believers go directly to heaven and so you deny that this interval exists at all.

Therefore, when you use the word, 'prior', you cannot be referring to the intervening duration of soul-sleep.

Likewise, since I deny that true believers go directly to heaven, I cannot be referring to their time there.

Our different takes on scripture have yielded mutually-exclusive concepts, so will you specify exactly what you mean by the word, 'prior' and I will then endeavor to answer.

 

On Earth, our souls are redeemed - and as Paul says in Romans 8; we await the redemption of our bodies.

 

Humans are body & soul, material & immaterial. But he seeks to be out of this body and knows God will one day give him a heavenly body.

Chap 1:20 as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

 

In the New heaven and the New Jerusalem, not before. Where does it ever say, before then?

 

Again, says who? 'Cuz Paul is very specific that to be away from the body and not in this flesh is to be at home with the Lord and to be with Christ. These are simple direct statements that you want to conduct some kinda 'work around' so as not to admit the obvious truth being taught.

 

This obvious truth of yours generates the contradiction I outlined to Phanta. Paul cannot write one thing to Timothy, state the opposite elsewhere and be consistent. My 'work around', as you call it, resolves it. I've yet to hear your resolution of this paradox. Care to oblige?

 

20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Philippians 1:20-23 & 3:20–21). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Paul personally prefers physical death to this worldly life in the flesh. So he can sleep? Yes.

And he regards this as far better? Really? Yes, really! See below for why.

'Cuz he says he will be at home with the Lord. Are you saying Paul will be home sleeping?

No. Once again you either haven't understood or are deliberately twisting my words. Listen up this time!

Like the thief on the cross, once Paul dies he will not know anything. The dead experience nothing. So, once he dies, the next thing that he will know (once his soul-sleep comes to an end) is that he will be at home with the lord.

So, he is not at home while sleeping, he's not anything while sleeping. Paul's homecoming happens when the dead rise on the last Day. Got it now?

 

No. Paul knew better than that. He knew that he would die and then wake (after sleeping and knowing nothing) when the Last trumpet sounds and the graves are opened. The intervening time means nothing to him, because the Spirit guarantees his salvation. Remember? There is no elapsed time for him in Sheol/Hades. He leaves his earthly life and wakens to go home with Christ, at the appointed time... Judgement Day.

 

There is no elapsed time for him in Sheol/Hades? Care to quote chapter and verse?

 

I've already done so, many times, in this thread. Rather than me do the work of restating them, why don't you go back, read thru them and compare them to 1 Timothy 6:16? If no one has entered heaven except Jesus, where else can the spirits of dead Christians be, except in Sheol/Hades? Job and Abraham and Solomon and David and Daniel knew this.

 

Also note what Jesus said to the thief on the cross;

42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Luke 23:42–43). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

So, you maintain that Paradise is sleeping in Hades along with Jesus? Is Jesus also sleeping? How is this Paradise?

 

Soul-sleep has nothing at all to do with Paradise. You are the one fixated on the idea that the thief would be joining Jesus in Paradise this day, not me. You are the one who regards this as an absolute truth, I don't. You are the one who doesn't accept that Jesus is speaking metaphorically, I do. Capiche?

 

So, in the midst of literal deaths, when Jesus said; "I thirst" they understood He wasn't uttering a metaphor and they brought him a sponge dipped in sour wine; and when He said; "It is finished." that was just a metaphor? For WHAT? When Jesus said; "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." - was that metaphor? When Jesus cried out: "My God, My God - why have You forsaken Me?" Wasn't that a literal fulfillment of prophecy? As was the men casting lots for His garments was also a literal fulfillment of prophecy?

 

So in the midst of all this literalness - you wanna inject a meaningless metaphor? And you want me to take this seriously? There is nothing in the context to suggest Jesus was using metaphor for 'today' or 'Paradise.' As I have said before, you have a very faulty hermeneutic.

 

Phanta is spot-on here.

So you can drop the metaphor blather.

Jesus tells the thief what he will experience in direct terms, to comfort the agonized, dying man. He doesn't have the time to give a lengthy sermon to the guy, nor would the thief have been able to comprehend if he had. How many more times do I have to go over this?

 

Now, if you want to talk about very faulty hermeneutics, look in the mirror and tell us both how you resolve the paradox I've already outlined. You'll also notice that Phanta has placed links for you to go back and look at certain points of mine. She asked you before to look at these points, but you still haven't done so. It's rude to keep a lady waiting.

 

Ooops! Sorry Ray!

I forgot that you said, "When someone asks a question, I am not obligated to answer, unless I promise to do so." So, seeing as you haven't promised to answer any questions in this thread, perhaps Phanta shouldn't expect you to deal with her questions?

 

40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Luke 23:40–43). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Did Jesus have the time and opportunity to patiently explain to the man that he would actually have to sleep until the Jesus returned? Perhaps for many millennia? Would the pain-stricken thief have understood? Wouldn't he desperately want deliverance from his agony as soon as possible? Yes, indeed! And Jesus promised this to him. Not in relentlessly literal detail, but in the best way that man could ask for - in terms of immediate comfort and peace on that day.

 

Oh - so there is no real Paradise. I get it.

 

Gakh! Glugh! "!esidaraP lear on si erehT"

Sorry again Ray.

I was just pulling out some more words you've shoved into my mouth. Stop doing that!

 

Nowhere in this thread have I ever said that there is no real Paradise. Soul-sleep doesn't deny the existence of Paradise, it simply defers it until the right and proper time - when God comes to live with his newly-resurrected children in the New heaven and the New Jerusalem.

 

The Final Judgment

 

(GREAT BIG SNIP!)

 

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 25:31–26:1). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Do me a favor - point out all the metaphors in this passage. Hungry, thirsty, stranger, naked, sick, King, kingdom, right, left, glory, angels, eternal, fire, devil, punishment, righteous, eternal life? Which ones?

 

 

No!

Getting me to point out all the metaphors in that passage is a twofold ploy of yours and I will not bite.

Your aim is to...

A. Deflect attention away from the contradiction between 1 Timothy 6:16 and Luke 23:43.

B. Present me with an irrelevant task and then, when I refuse to comply, make a big deal about how I'm not answering your questions.

 

 

So then, my parting shot to you today is this.

Why don't you do Phanta and me the favor of resolving the contradiction between 1 Timothy 6:16 and Luke 23:43, without adding to or taking anything away from scripture, nor subverting it's content to mean something else.

 

Just be accountable... this once.

 

BAA.

[Phanta]

Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that Ray is under any kind of obligation to respond to me, but I am gaining from the discussion, and appreciate his contributions.

 

Phanta

[bdp]

'ray' says he doesn't have to answer questions. I thought he was obligated by his god to always give a defense and account and all that junk. Oh, wait, does say to 'be ready' to do that, not to actually do it. Nevermind...

[bornagainathiest]

'ray' says he doesn't have to answer questions. I thought he was obligated by his god to always give a defense and account and all that junk. Oh, wait, does say to 'be ready' to do that, not to actually do it. Nevermind...

 

LOL! Amen to that BDP!

 

Yep. Ray's ready to answer these, but he just won't do it.

 

1.

When? Quote the chapter and verse where David says he expects to physically see God, right after he dies and before Judgement Day.

 

2.

Wrong! Show me the chapter and verse where it says David is in heaven now, before Judgement Day.

 

3.

Yes. On Judgement day, not before. Show me where it says before then?

 

4.

Ray, any quote you can find will be about true believers being there in their fully resurrected physical flesh, either on Judgement Day or after. Prove me wrong.

 

5.

In the New heaven and the New Jerusalem, not before. Where does it ever say, before then?

 

6.

This obvious truth of yours generates the contradiction I outlined to Phanta. Paul cannot write one thing to Timothy, state the opposite elsewhere and be consistent. My 'work around', as you call it, resolves it. I've yet to hear your resolution of this paradox. Care to oblige?

 

7.

Why don't you do Phanta and me the favor of resolving the contradiction between 1 Timothy 6:16 and Luke 23:43, without adding to or taking anything away from scripture, nor subverting it's content to mean something else. Just be accountable... this once.

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Just a simple question for you this time, Ray.

 

Phanta asked you this...

On 07 January 2011 - 12:12 PM, Phanta said:

A couple quick questions come to mind.... Abraham expected to have a physical body?

2nd question... When Jesus raised the widow's son from the dead, if what you say is correct, wouldn't that mean the son was already somewhere else...an afterlife, in another body?

Thanks for considering my questions.

Phanta

 

and you replied like this...

 

God's revelation in Scripture is progressive - so as time goes on the revelation grows and becomes more specific. Yes, I think that Abraham expected to have a physical body in the after-life. Now, as we look at what God has further revealed >> the immediate after-life is as a disembodied spirit, since death is the separation of our soul from our body.

26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (James 2:26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

Then, after God destroys this sin-polluted universe and creates a New Heavens and a New Earth, we will receive glorified bodies. I Corinthians 15.

 

So then, taking the above with your comments here...

 

Also note what Jesus said to the thief on the cross;

42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Luke 23:42–43). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

...leads me to the following conclusions.

 

1.

You believe that the immediate after-life for all Christians is as disembodied spirits in heaven.

 

2.

This would include everyone from Abel, Noah and Abraham, thru Job, David, Solomon, Samuel and Daniel, including the martyr Stephen and all of the Apostles, plus every other true Christian, right up until this very moment.

 

3.

The thief who was crucified with Jesus, died and went to heaven on that day and is there now.

 

4.

This thief is also a disembodied spirit in heaven, which is the Paradise Jesus was referring to in Luke 23:43.

 

5.

All of the disembodied Christian spirits will receive glorified physical bodies at the appointed time.

 

6.

This will be when God destroys the old heaven and earth and creates the New Heaven and the New Earth, not before.

 

7.

The New Heaven and the New Earth appear after God's judgement, not before.

 

 

 

So, my question is simply this...

 

Do you agree with my 7-point description of your beliefs?

 

If not, why not?

 

(Ooops! That's two questions!)

 

Please be so kind as to respond.

 

Thank you,

 

BAA.

[rayskidude]

Paul writes that he wants to depart and be with Christ. If he means on the day he dies, then he must share Ray's position - that the saved join Christ immediately when they die. But, elsewhere Paul also writes the God, 'dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see.'

 

Hmmmmm... Was Paul referring to those in Heaven - or those on Earth? Paul was referring to humans on Earth.

 

Note the context of I Timothy; stated right at the start and re-iterated throughout the letter >> the dangers of false teachers!

 

Warning Against False Teachers

3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. 5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Tim 1:3–7). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Some Will Depart from the Faith

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Tim 4:1–5). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

False Teachers and True Contentment

Teach and urge these things. 3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. 6 Now there is great gain in godliness with contentment, 7 for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. 8 But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Tim 6:2–10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Characteristics of false teachers?

 

13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (2 Corinthians 11:13–15). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Let No One Disqualify You

16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Colossians 2:16–23). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

So the context is false teachers - who were known to present themselves as Apostles & angels of light, who teach legalism & Law, who go on in detail about their visions >> visions of God. So Paul says, in agreement with the Apostle John who throughout his ministry battled Gnostics, that no human being on Earth has seen God.

 

But do the departed see God? Absolutely -

 

55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him. 58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Acts 7:55–8:1). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Note that Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, fully expected Jesus to receive his human spirit into heaven. Not to be consigned to some timeless sleep. Being seprarated from our sinful bodies, our redeemed souls will see God. We will be at home with the Lord.

 

Also, let's not forget what Peter said. That King David did not enter heaven - and this was hundreds of years after David died. But according to Ray, David should have gone there on the day of his death.

 

Again, allow me to re-iterate; Peter stated that David did not physically rise from the dead. Since David died, his soul separated from his body, and David's current existence is similar to that of angels - until that point in the future when we receive our heavenly, glorified bodies.

 

So my response to this whole soul-sleep gig is to quote Jesus' response to the Sadducees;

 

29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 22:29–32). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

So, we see BAA is contradicting Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God.

[bornagainathiest]

...and this Paradise which Jesus refered to is the heaven where all Christians spirits are now?

 

BAA.

[rayskidude]

There is no elapsed time for him in Sheol/Hades? Care to quote chapter and verse?

 

I've already done so, many times, in this thread. Rather than me do the work of restating them, why don't you go back, read thru them.

 

You offered nothing that corresponded to Scriptural context - I'm giving you a second chance. Plz put forth something plausible from the Bible - in context.

 

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Matthew 25:31–26:1). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

Do me a favor - point out all the metaphors in this passage. Hungry, thirsty, stranger, naked, sick, King, kingdom, right, left, glory, angels, eternal, fire, devil, punishment, righteous, eternal life? Which ones?

 

No!

Getting me to point out all the metaphors in that passage is a twofold ploy of yours and I will not bite.

Your aim is to...

A. Deflect attention away from the contradiction between 1 Timothy 6:16 and Luke 23:43.

B. Present me with an irrelevant task and then, when I refuse to comply, make a big deal about how I'm not answering your questions.

 

This is sheer cowardice. You can't do it and hold you beloved soul-sleep doctrine >> you know you've hung yourself with your own rope, your position holds no water. So you take the high road and accuse me of an 'irrelevant task' - and when did context become irrelevant?

 

Oh yes, when you want to posit some doctrine that has never been taught or accepted within historic orthodox Christianity. And you also refuse to list any recognized Bible scholar that holds to this false doctrine - again by accusing me, a priori, of mistreating such men/women.

 

Cowardice. So, until you want to address pertinent passages in context, and supply some simple information I've asked for - what the purpose of continuing on?

 

There is no contradiction between I Tim 6:16 and Luke 23:43 - unless you conjure one up in your own mind.