cobrakai Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I posted this once before in Rants and Replies but I like it so I am posting it again...so there! I recently sent this over to a christian friend of mine and they truly did not know how to respond: Beliefs obviously affect our behavior. In some cases that is obvious, like a Muslim who blows himself up to kill the infidels or an abortion clinic bomber that believes abortion is an abomination to god. However these examples are what people label “extremist” when in fact they examples of people just following the orders of their doctrine. Looking at these examples makes me wonder if most Christians (fundies and moderates) even believe what they say they do. We as ex-christians are often told we never truly believed, I would say that neither do the "true believers". They align themselves with an idea, the idea of Christianity(what they interpret Christianity to be). They think that because they supposedly have it figured out in their own heads they will be safe from hellfire. They have convinced themselves that as long as they align themselves with this idea that they are “living right”. Aligning yourself with an ideal or identifying with a label is far from really believing it. How could they possibly really believe in all that the faith entails and not dedicate their life solely to those beliefs? Look at the lives of most Christians, especially the moderate, “progressive” Christians that inhabit the new mega-churches of the day. They are loose with drinking, drugs, and sex. They listen to what they want to when it comes to music, and watch the movies they want to watch. They live off the amenities of the modern world, though they are supposedly against the world. They do all this with the idea that they are saved, forgiveness is cheap, and as long as they are against homosexuals and abortion all is right with the world. I find it odd when I look at the lives of most of the Christians I knew at church. How were they separated from the world? Most of them drove VERY nice cars, they worried about their careers, their families, their clothes, their appearance, and craved sex. After service it was off to Starbucks, or the mall or a restaurant for breakfast; the sermon of the day already out of mind. It was a social club. It had cliques and the popular crowds just like high school. I think of a Christian couple I know and there is nothing that would ever make me think they are different or living “the right way”. Their facebook page has the usual little props to god here and there but most of it is about how much they travel, or an avenue to show off their new born son and how cute he looks in his little new outfit from Macy’s. The faith goes much deeper than most dwell upon each day. If you say you are a Christian then you HAVE to believe that the Bible is the infallible word of god, that Noah and the flood are true, that god really did create the world in 7 days, that god does not want a woman teaching a man. FURTHERMORE, you have to believe that a supposed “nether realm” exists. You have to believe that angels and demons truly do exist, and that right now in a spiritual realm which we cannot even conceive, they are battling for the souls of mankind. This imagery doesn’t seem to jive with the “good vibes” teachings of a Joel Olsteen or with Rick Warren’s “Purpose Driven Life”. How could you possibly believe that all of this stuff is truly real and not have it send you into a wide eyed panic? Better yet how could you truly believe in this and not devote your whole life to it? How could you say you honestly believe that the book of Revelations will come true and spend your Sunday watching a football game? How could you pretend that something so big is just in the background of life while you shop with your friends? If somebody told you that if you continued eat cookies you would die, and you believed them, you would probably stop eating cookies unless you just didn't give a shit. So if Christians truly believe they have no excuse to really live it out. I think most Christians live by Pascal’s Wager. It is a big "maybe" in their heads but because they fear death and hell it gives them comfort that just maybe they will be okay when they die. They also like the idea of standing for something, it makes them feel good and important to be against the supposed evils of the world like abortion and homosexuals. If the stakes are that high and all of this shit is real then Christians have no excuse why they are not trying to save souls everyday. They should be out on the streets in droves constantly telling us about Jesus. They shouldn’t be worried about their sports teams, or their drywall, or buying that new video game. But that’s not the case. Instead they will continue to live off of the world that is mostly developed because of humanism and scientific achievement, while still trying to hold down the non-believer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 The ones who really believe as you describe are called fanatics and shunned as such by other Christians. Personally, I'm glad there aren't that many of them. It would be such a bother going out and having to put up with them everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted January 8, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 8, 2011 I find there is so much truth that you wrote about here. You have made some really great points. Thank you! I just looked out on my street corner and I don't see anyone trying to save anyones soul As far as the rest of your post - this was always the scripture that I loved the best to get me out of the sinful things that I continued to do - even after I was saved: I call it - Paul's excuse: Sometimes this was connected with the freedom of grace in The Christ message. Rom. 7:14-20: We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do -- this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it (NIV). Some have alluded to this passage by saying it's normal Christian living. I liked that,No, I loved it - All I had to do was read this passage and pray for forgiveness for my dreadful sinful nature. I always loved the bumper stickers that said: Be Patient - God isn't finished with me yet! And another favorite was: Christians aren't perfect - Their just redeemed! Whatever scripture or excuse I could find............................................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobrakai Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 I find there is so much truth that you wrote about here. You have made some really great points. Thank you! I just looked out on my street corner and I don't see anyone trying to save anyones soul As far as the rest of your post - this was always the scripture that I loved the best to get me out of the sinful things that I continued to do - even after I was saved: I call it - Paul's excuse: Sometimes this was connected with the freedom of grace in The Christ message. Rom. 7:14-20: We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do -- this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it (NIV). Some have alluded to this passage by saying it's normal Christian living. I liked that,No, I loved it - All I had to do was read this passage and pray for forgiveness for my dreadful sinful nature. I always loved the bumper stickers that said: Be Patient - God isn't finished with me yet! And another favorite was: Christians aren't perfect - Their just redeemed! Whatever scripture or excuse I could find............................................................... Ha ha in that verse it seriously sounds like Paul is mentally ill. It sounds like some weird version of "who's on first". I know exactly what you mean. I've written many posts about that as well. Christians are always looking for a way to actually be human and experience some pleasure. I always tried to justify my actions this way. That was one of the things that lead to me leaving the faith. They always talk about this "power" of Christ and how you are a brand new person and all that shit, but there is nothing about the faith that helps change your "sinful" ways except for fear and that only lasts so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted January 8, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 8, 2011 There are too many scriptures that tell us how bad sin is -even after we're saved. I mean, even Jesus talking to the adulterous woman told her to go and sin no more. All of Paul's letters say............... 'and those who do these things will not see the kingdom of god.' You know all the things he was talking about. Wild parties and all that stuff. We used to have woman's groups and sit around praying for all the sins we were all still doing. We even agreed to start wearing loose clothing. All the women in our Church wore skin tight jeans and low cut blouses and I always laughed so hard watching all the men try to keep their eyes to themselves. Don't get me wrong - we were quite sincere at trying to stop ourselves from wrong thinking, bad tempers, lust of the eye, etc.......... But all we had to do was ask god for forgiveness and it was done! We'd be 'good' for awhile and then we would be repenting at the alter once again. Even Jesus said the prostitutes and murderers would see heaven before some of the others who hadn't repented. So go head and rape, murder, steal, lie, covet, cheat - but don't forget to sit in jail and ask god for forgiveness. Repent and be saved. That's all there is to it! Even on one's death bed (If you have time) you can still make it to heaven. But all the people who live good, kind, humanistic lives, or other religions from around the world, who are very sincere and good.............................. fry forever...................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 How could you possibly believe that all of this stuff is truly real and not have it send you into a wide eyed panic? Better yet how could you truly believe in this and not devote your whole life to it? How could you say you honestly believe that the book of Revelations will come true and spend your Sunday watching a football game? How could you pretend that something so big is just in the background of life while you shop with your friends? If somebody told you that if you continued eat cookies you would die, and you believed them, you would probably stop eating cookies unless you just didn't give a shit. So if Christians truly believe they have no excuse to really live it out. I think most Christians live by Pascal’s Wager. It is a big "maybe" in their heads but because they fear death and hell it gives them comfort that just maybe they will be okay when they die. They also like the idea of standing for something, it makes them feel good and important to be against the supposed evils of the world like abortion and homosexuals. If the stakes are that high and all of this shit is real then Christians have no excuse why they are not trying to save souls everyday. They should be out on the streets in droves constantly telling us about Jesus. They shouldn’t be worried about their sports teams, or their drywall, or buying that new video game. But that’s not the case. Instead they will continue to live off of the world that is mostly developed because of humanism and scientific achievement, while still trying to hold down the non-believer. Really, really loved this last part. That's how I have felt for a long time. I am *almost* disappointed by the Christians who do not try to win me back to Christ because it almost seems they aren't really taking it seriously. Aren't they worried that I am going to Hell? Shouldn't they be concerned for my eternal well-being? Why aren't they preaching to people on the street, or their waitress at the restaurant or the unsuspecting girl at the drive-thru? If we truly are on a wide road to Hell, why aren't they doing more to make sure there are more road signs? There is always the "us" vs. "them" in Christianity, the great evil or "Satan" right now isn't witches but homosexuals and <insert random minority group>. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted January 8, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 8, 2011 I just saw this - '' You can't sell Jesus, when you're not sold yourself.'' :scratch: Maybe, that's why I couldn't 'witness'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsRobinson Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I thought being a xian was isolating. I always thought it was just me that sinned even though I tried the best I could. Then you meet all the ones that are worse than you and youre like Whaaa . When I was in Vegas a few weeks ago there was a Christian preaching salvation with a megaphone and handing out tracts. I felt sorry for him as he was in a sea of people handing out sex cards and vip bar tickets. Poor guy. Theres the JWs who do get off thier butts and preach door to door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 If the stakes are that high and all of this shit is real then Christians have no excuse why they are not trying to save souls everyday. They should be out on the streets in droves constantly telling us about Jesus. My parents really, really believe. Yet they feel no need to proselytize because they "know" that God chooses whom he will save - they're complete believers in election, not free will. In their minds, it's not up to them to try to convince anyone. If God wants someone to be a Christian, he will make them be a Christian. The analogy they love to use is, "We are all a bunch of marbles rolling toward the edge of a table. As we fall off the edge, in his mercy God reaches out and plucks some of us out of mid-air to save us from crashing to the floor." So, using this mindset, my parents have crafted a very nice, cozy life where they are surrounded by Christians and do whatever they want. They may help the widows and orphans, but only the widows and orphans who are members of their church. They never mix with non-believers. Except when I visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 The faith goes much deeper than most dwell upon each day. If you say you are a Christian then you HAVE to believe that the Bible is the infallible word of god, that Noah and the flood are true, that god really did create the world in 7 days, that god does not want a woman teaching a man. FURTHERMORE, you have to believe that a supposed “nether realm” exists. You have to believe that angels and demons truly do exist, and that right now in a spiritual realm which we cannot even conceive, they are battling for the souls of mankind..... How could you possibly believe that all of this stuff is truly real and not have it send you into a wide eyed panic? Better yet how could you truly believe in this and not devote your whole life to it? If the stakes are that high and all of this shit is real then Christians have no excuse why they are not trying to save souls everyday....Instead they will continue to live off of the world that is mostly developed because of humanism and scientific achievement, while still trying to hold down the non-believer. Your whole post reminds me of the daily struggle I went through trying to be "separate from the world". I would feel guilty for my worldly weaknesses. But to live every moment within the N.T. mindset is difficult and can lead to ""wide-eyed panic". It wasn't until I met an intelligent and caring Ex-Christian, that I began to understand how untrue and manipulative the "Truth" really is. The Truth doesn't set you free, but truth sure as hell does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted January 8, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 8, 2011 You know - I was thinking to myself this morning about how many Christians (ex -so-called friends) that I run into in the grocery stores, malls, star bucks, etc... (including my old pastor) and how each one of them asks me with a superficial smile, how am I doing? Not one of them has said - ''Gee, Margee - Even tho you don't come to our church anymore - We really hope you are going to anyone church somewhere, to get 'fed the word,' because we are so afraid that you will lose your salvation and your soul destiny'. Nope - nobody. In fact - I've seen a few of then run from me. I suppose, in their defense, they may be at home praying for the devil to 'come out of me'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flockoff Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Ehh, if I were still a believer reading this thread I'd have answered that the reason Christians don't proselytize in the streets or bug their relatives about it is because they know what the result is going to be. You might make some progress with a few people, sure, but for every one of them there's going to be more people you 'pushed away' from God by offending them. Unless you're a missionary and the people you're speaking to are hearing the gospel for the first time, or if you've got somebody on the phone going through a tough time and nothing else you've said is working, you have to accept that most of the people you're trying to reach have already heard the whole story and want nothing to do with it. It's best to just lead by example; let people see what Christ has done for YOU, and if you're a good enough example, they'll want to have what you have. But I still agree that there's something missing in the way most Christians live if we're to believe their beliefs really run as deep as they claim. I don't see them inviting homeless people to their house for dinner like Jesus said, or using the money they spent on their big tv to help fund mission trips. My parents really, really believe. Yet they feel no need to proselytize because they "know" that God chooses whom he will save - they're complete believers in election, not free will. In their minds, it's not up to them to try to convince anyone. If God wants someone to be a Christian, he will make them be a Christian. The analogy they love to use is, "We are all a bunch of marbles rolling toward the edge of a table. As we fall off the edge, in his mercy God reaches out and plucks some of us out of mid-air to save us from crashing to the floor." So God's losing his marbles. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted January 8, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 8, 2011 flockoff: ''But I still agree that there's something missing in the way most Christians live if we're to believe their beliefs really run as deep as they claim. I don't see them inviting homeless people to their house for dinner like Jesus said, or using the money they spent on their big tv to help fund mission trips.'' ................................................................................................................................................................................ flockoff - THAT is such a good point! As good as I tried to be as a Christian, I was always too involved in my work, church, family and responsibilities to have much energy for 'reaching out' to the MANY people who needed extra help. I am ashamed of myself. Oh yeah -I tried to 'buy' my way . I always gave money to street people, helped someone else at x-mas and so forth............these 'little' things.... I often wonder if I had the money and time - would I have done better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRDWarrior Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 If the stakes are that high and all of this shit is real then Christians have no excuse why they are not trying to save souls everyday. They should be out on the streets in droves constantly telling us about Jesus. My parents really, really believe. Yet they feel no need to proselytize because they "know" that God chooses whom he will save - they're complete believers in election, not free will. In their minds, it's not up to them to try to convince anyone. If God wants someone to be a Christian, he will make them be a Christian. The analogy they love to use is, "We are all a bunch of marbles rolling toward the edge of a table. As we fall off the edge, in his mercy God reaches out and plucks some of us out of mid-air to save us from crashing to the floor." So, using this mindset, my parents have crafted a very nice, cozy life where they are surrounded by Christians and do whatever they want. They may help the widows and orphans, but only the widows and orphans who are members of their church. They never mix with non-believers. Except when I visit. These are the types of Christians I grew up around, they are the type I knew (and was myself)....we also believed in election, so it was not our job to be out forcing religion down people's throats - that was god's job. Hell, we were even sick and tired of most of the churches for the reasons listed in the OP. Unfortunately for me, these were the Christians I knew, and this was the version of Christianity I knew. My mother to this day will argue that Noah's ark was real, believes in a literal 6 day creation story, and is positive the bible is the infallible word of god...and she doesn't attend a church because she thinks they are all too fake. To me, this was Christianity...it was a bit of an eye opener to realize that most Christians were not that way.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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